Sleepy Pens

Phalanx300 · Post by **Phalanx300** » Sun Aug 10, 2014 5:40 pm #23643

The hell did you guys do? Now they only silence them and they will fall asleep in a while. This item is now useless. Please revert change asap, even since first SS13 versions it had its old effect. Doesn't nostalgia mean anything to you monsters?!

MedicInDisquise · Sun Aug 10, 2014 5:49 pm

It isn't useless any more, and it was just put into a new niche. Freak people out by stabbing them, passing by in the halls, and have them drop asleep in bar. Watch the greytide fuck them up.

Seriously though, it was part of the parapen-c4 nerf that was, imo, needed.

Konork · Post by **Konork** » Sun Aug 10, 2014 6:21 pm #23649

Phalanx300 wrote:The hell did you guys do? Now they only silence them and they will fall asleep in a while. This item is now useless. Please revert change asap, even since first SS13 versions it had its old effect. Doesn't nostalgia mean anything to you monsters?!

As someone who was legitimately around when traitor items were first added, and can confirm that parapens were like that back then, I disagree entirely. Also, there was only ever one traitor on the station at a time back then, and he got one item, and putting nostalgia above gameplay is pretty shitty anyway

Phalanx300 · Post by **Phalanx300** » Sun Aug 10, 2014 6:31 pm #23650

Why nerf the Parapen if nerfing C4 is enough? This is just giving a unnecesary handicap to traitors. Actually its similar to the bad Ling changes earlier. So much hugbox.

Post by **MisterPerson** » Sun Aug 10, 2014 7:29 pm #23660

Parapen was unfun for the guy getting parapenned and created this annoying "don't stand near anybody because you can die instantly without warning" mentality.

Phalanx300 · Post by **Phalanx300** » Sun Aug 10, 2014 7:37 pm #23662

MisterPerson wrote:Parapen was unfun for the guy getting parapenned and created this annoying "don't stand near anybody because you can die instantly without warning" mentality.

Then what use does the item serve now? How to be stealthy? Right now all I can think of is to go with the silencer gun and just spam shots hoping the enemy can't scream on the radio.

At least add a item which removes the ability to use the radio to promote stealth. As for the pens, current state they are totally useless and a waste of points. Remove the sleep toxin and add something which blinds and slows them down as well to walking speed. At least this way the attacker has value for his points. Current item is just way too weak.

Post by **MisterPerson** » Sun Aug 10, 2014 7:47 pm #23664

Well the pen mutes, which disable radio usage. So does the EMP kit. You get grenades and a fake flashlight that EMP's people you hit with it.

Lo6a4evskiy · Post by **Lo6a4evskiy** » Sun Aug 10, 2014 7:52 pm #23666

Make stun prod and cablecuffs, available to anyone. Mute target with pen or EMP. Stun, handcuff, strip.

Stealth.

Douk · Post by **Douk** » Sun Aug 10, 2014 8:19 pm #23671

Alone, sleepy pens are pretty fucking useless. I have been the victim of their use multiple times already and they NEVER work well for the traitor who uses them. Even with the mute, all it takes is for me to do is get into a public area and send a PDA message with the name of the person who stabbed me and my current location to security or someone else I trust. I go down, but by that time, help is already there for me and the traitor is exposed. I know when I was stabbed because of the tiny prick, and with the yawning, it's a constant reminder to you and everyone around you that you have some sort of sleep toxin in you.
Now I'm not saying that the item has to revert back to its initial fake-death effect, but it needs some sort of buff to make it worthwhile to use in the first place. It's been thrown around since time immemorial, but making the pen refillable might help in this case. Either way, it needs something to compensate for its TC cost. Its only current use is as a costly one-time mute sting.

Bluespace · Post by **Bluespace** » Sun Aug 10, 2014 8:21 pm #23672

I think if it made you collapse every few seconds, disorientated you, and made it hard to talk, that'd be decent.

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Sun Aug 10, 2014 11:47 pm #23690

I think it misses the point entirely of the original item.

cedarbridge · Post by **cedarbridge** » Mon Aug 11, 2014 12:40 am #23694

Scott wrote:I think it misses the point entirely of the original item.

Which I'm sure you would have outlined in a longer post if you had actually planned to contribute something worthwhile to this thread.

I've been stabbed by two of these now. One was a fairly low-pop round where there was literally nobody on my half of the station and that just ended up with me running from botany to medbay and eating a minibomb in front of chem when I collapsed.

The second one was in RnD and I managed to get to a very populated medbay, shook awake (9 times) and then spent the next god knows how long mute. Sleep toxin at least has some chemical remedies, but as the mutetox is now, its totally untouchable. I can land one syringe of the stuff on a wizard and the game is over.

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Mon Aug 11, 2014 2:11 am #23701

If it doesn't disable the victim immediately, it's pointless. Skip that step and go for the kill right away, it's just as "stealthy". As people have said, it doesn't stop anyone from using the PDA to call for help and announce your name, it's far from being a good option if you're trying to make a quiet kill.

Incomptinence · Mon Aug 11, 2014 2:54 am

Git good and stun prod.*

*similar people also advocate nerfing the stun prod.

Lo6a4evskiy · Post by **Lo6a4evskiy** » Mon Aug 11, 2014 9:41 am #23727

To be fair, "tiny prick" is a shitty message that should be changed into something else or removed entirely. If you receive it you pretty much know that unless this guy is CMO he is antagonist who probably wants to kill you.

And if it was not enough, admins apparently are totally okay with metagaming like this and actually want people to do it

Miauw · Post by **Miauw** » Mon Aug 11, 2014 10:07 am #23730

The parapen sucked dick, was an instant win for the person doing the parapenning, an instant unfun loss for the person getting parapenned and in a player vote, the overwhelming majority voted in favor of removing it.
The sleepy pen is still powerful, knocks people out for a while but gives them a chance to fight back.

A refillable pen was explicitly denied because it would be too powerful, I quite simply can't add it.

If you want an item that removes radio, that already exists, it's called the EMP flashlight.

Some people are being shitheads but there's some good feedback nonetheless. Remember that coders aren't telepathic, I can't magically sense how you feel about this item and when I went on sybil to ask what people thought about it I got basically no reply so I assumed people thought it was fine.

Current complains seem to be:

People run to populated areas (easily) instead of fighting back. (Can be advoided with a stun, but w/e.)
Mute lasts far too long. (Easily solved, I'll just remove the amount of mutetox)
People use their PDAs to tell others that they are getting penned. (No idea how to solve this, maybe just reduce TC cost and tell people to use the EMP kit? I don't even know if PDAs react to EMPs.)

Honestly I could also just make it so your PDA has to be in your hand to use it, advoids quite some BS. Or you could, as suggested, use stunprods.

Also, "it doesnt disable the target instantly" is fully intentional. If you need a crutch like that to play traitor, don't play traitor. You're supposed to make the round interesting for other people, not just for yourself. The sleepypen is an attempt to preserve interesting possibilities of the parapen while removing the unfun BS of parapen+c4 (or similar combos).

The sleepypen isn't instant win anymore, which is the entire fucking point! No single item should be instant win by itself.

I'll try to do something to improve it, but for the time being:

Make a stunprod and stun people right before/after you pen them.
Pen people while they are in areas that they don't have access too (ask them to come to your department to pick up a crate or w/e)
Use the sleepypen in conjunction with the EMP kit or similar.

Lo6a4evskiy · Post by **Lo6a4evskiy** » Mon Aug 11, 2014 11:34 am #23736

Miauw wrote:Honestly I could also just make it so your PDA has to be in your hand to use it, advoids quite some BS.

To be fair, this we need also. Also toggling suit sensors should not be possible when down/cuffed.

Miauw wrote:(No idea how to solve this, maybe just reduce TC cost and tell people to use the EMP kit? I don't even know if PDAs react to EMPs.)

Pretty sure EMP has no effect on PDA. Well, making it impossible to use PDA without holding it in your hands would be a fine solution, since you would be able to just disarm it out of hands.

Otherwise, people, just be fucking creative. Use someone else's PDA or voice changer or computer in telecomms or even your own PDA to send a help message beforehand. Let security come search for you in some remote part of the station while you murder your victim. Seriously, if you cannot think of anything but instant parapen to silently get rid of your target, you shouldn't be playing stealthy traitor. Jeeze, just take off your ID and all they can PDA is "Unknown killin me in maint!1!".

These complaints are like "Syndibomb doesn't explode instantly so people can run away or defuse it". Well, yes, holy shit, this is by design, it's intended to have some way to counter it. Your job is to prevent them from using these counters.

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Mon Aug 11, 2014 4:04 pm #23754

Miauw wrote:The parapen sucked dick, was an instant win for the person doing the parapenning, an instant unfun loss for the person getting parapenned and in a player vote, the overwhelming majority voted in favor of removing it.

I am fairly sure I remember a poll where "Don't remove parapen" won, even if it was a balanced poll.

If you keep making polls and use the one poll that "remove parapen" wins and use that as an excuse to do it, it's just bias.

The sleepypen is shit, use an esword instead and it has the same benefits plus it prevents PDA usage and kills at the same time. And best of all, it never runs out.

Phalanx300 · Post by **Phalanx300** » Mon Aug 11, 2014 4:46 pm #23759

I've heard that the main reason for the nerf was the C4 combo, however with the C4 nerf that combo does no longer exist.

What I suggest:

- Mutes the enemy, allowing you to kill them without them screaming for help.
- Slows them down, so they don't run for help.

Above is definately something required to make it viable, and even then the issues remain of PDA calls for help.. The sleeptoxin is not needed.

All these nerfs to antags have reached rediculous levels. They are supposed to have an advantage, paranoia is all part of this game.

Lo6a4evskiy · Post by **Lo6a4evskiy** » Mon Aug 11, 2014 5:08 pm #23765

Scott wrote:it has the same benefits plus it prevents PDA usage and kills at the same time. And best of all, it never runs out.

Then what are you complaining about?

Phalanx300 wrote:I've heard that the main reason for the nerf was the C4 combo

The main reason for the nerf was that parapen was instawin item. There's nothing more that needs to be said, really. It was impossible to counter.

Phalanx300 wrote:paranoia

*sigh

These people.

Phalanx300 · Post by **Phalanx300** » Mon Aug 11, 2014 5:33 pm #23771

Lo6a4evskiy wrote:
Scott wrote:it has the same benefits plus it prevents PDA usage and kills at the same time. And best of all, it never runs out.
Then what are you complaining about?
Phalanx300 wrote:I've heard that the main reason for the nerf was the C4 combo
The main reason for the nerf was that parapen was instawin item. There's nothing more that needs to be said, really. It was impossible to counter.
Phalanx300 wrote:paranoia
*sigh

These people.

There is a big difference between insta-win and insta-lose. Now its the latter. Losing is not meant to be fun, always requiring a stunprod on you (like Lings...) just makes it all the more boring.

bandit · Post by **bandit** » Mon Aug 11, 2014 6:42 pm #23781

Why not make sleepy pen like mute sting -- i.e. silent, with no message? That cuts down a lot of the meta.

Phalanx300 · Post by **Phalanx300** » Mon Aug 11, 2014 7:58 pm #23789

bandit wrote:Why not make sleepy pen like mute sting -- i.e. silent, with no message? That cuts down a lot of the meta.

This would also be a good change. Apply the same to ling, getting a message how "you feel a small prick" immediately screws over the antag. Its not needed really.

Cipher3 · Post by **Cipher3** » Mon Aug 11, 2014 8:56 pm #23793

Scott wrote:If it doesn't disable the victim immediately, it's pointless. Skip that step and go for the kill right away, it's just as "stealthy". As people have said, it doesn't stop anyone from using the PDA to call for help and announce your name, it's far from being a good option if you're trying to make a quiet kill.

Spoiler:

In any fight, if the opponent has time to send a PDA message while you're beating them, you're doing something wrong. Muting somebody is all you need if you've at all prepared.

Bluespace · Post by **Bluespace** » Mon Aug 11, 2014 9:01 pm #23794

Miauw wrote: Honestly I could also just make it so your PDA has to be in your hand to use it, advoids quite some BS. Or you could, as suggested, use stunprods.

Don't do this.
This'll lead to disarmed uplinks, disarmed ID carrying PDAs, and it makes it harder for me to bomb the station with a PDA signaller.

Lo6a4evskiy · Post by **Lo6a4evskiy** » Mon Aug 11, 2014 9:13 pm #23797

I often use my PDA in hand and nothing of the sort ever happens

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Mon Aug 11, 2014 11:11 pm #23810

Phalanx300 wrote: All these nerfs to antags have reached rediculous levels. They are supposed to have an advantage, paranoia is all part of this game.

Pretty much this. Not to mention some things remain overpowered, so they will just be used even more often. We should be buffing/remaking Syndicate items that aren't used, not nerfing items that give sec players a headache.

leibniz · Post by **leibniz** » Tue Aug 12, 2014 9:11 am #23852

There is more to paranoia than being afraid of standing next to people because of a pen oneshotting you.

Miauw · Post by **Miauw** » Tue Aug 12, 2014 11:00 am #23856

leibniz wrote:There is more to paranoia than being afraid of standing next to people because of a pen oneshotting you.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS

paranoia isn't "don't stand next to people!!!" "if you see somebody in maint going the other way shoot them!!!!"

thats called metagaming, not paranoia.

You don't require a stunprod all the time, stop making invalid arguments. Think ahead, don't be amazed that a cheap traitor item can't win the round for you free of risk all by itself.

My main problem with adding slowdown is that it's very lethal, almost as lethal as muteness. I could of course add a toxin that does stamina damage, would that be ok?

Removing the tiny prick message *could* be done, all ling stings are "silent" anyway (ling stings only give the prick message when they sting another ling).

The sleeptoxin is needed so you can still plausibly kidnap people.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Tue Aug 12, 2014 11:19 am #23858

Paranoia should be me being afraid of being in a room alone with someone.

It should not be me being afraid of standing right next to someone.

Incomptinence · Tue Aug 12, 2014 1:07 pm

There is plenty of nasty stuff that happens at melee range. Even naked men can disarm a security officer, sorry but your trained and ingrained discomfort at being next to people is not going away.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Tue Aug 12, 2014 1:14 pm #23867

Incomptinence wrote:There is plenty of nasty stuff that happens at melee range. Even naked men can disarm a security officer, sorry but your trained and ingrained discomfort at being next to people is not going away.

There is a world's difference between being silently muted and stunned instantly without warning, and getting disarmed of your weapon because you decided to run around with your weapon unholstered.

Virtually any other melee range attack can be defended against, or at least offer a chance of survival. The old Parapen did not offer this.

Phalanx300 · Post by **Phalanx300** » Tue Aug 12, 2014 2:18 pm #23873

Steelpoint wrote:Paranoia should be me being afraid of being in a room alone with someone.

It should not be me being afraid of standing right next to someone.

Why should you be afraid now?

*You feel a prick* -> Sprints to airlock and escapes, matter of time before you are executed by security. Fun should be mostly for the antags really, priorities people.

Lo6a4evskiy · Post by **Lo6a4evskiy** » Tue Aug 12, 2014 2:48 pm #23876

Phalanx300 wrote:Fun should be mostly for the antags really

lol

MedicInDisquise · Tue Aug 12, 2014 2:51 pm

Phalanx300 wrote: Fun should be mostly for the antags really, priorities people.

I'm not sure if you're serious or not. Either way, this is a shit mindset. This is a fucking game, we're all here to have fun. The Antag's job is to cause fun for the REST of the server.

Miauw · Post by **Miauw** » Tue Aug 12, 2014 3:35 pm #23882

if you think fun should be mostly for the antags, please stop playing antag.

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Tue Aug 12, 2014 4:32 pm #23889

leibniz wrote:There is more to paranoia than being afraid of standing next to people because of a pen oneshotting you.

How fast can you react being ebowed and promptly hit in the mouth with an esword and being unable to even say "stop", let alone call for help? The parapen was used less than ebow+esword.

Phalanx300 · Post by **Phalanx300** » Tue Aug 12, 2014 4:36 pm #23891

Miauw wrote:if you think fun should be mostly for the antags, please stop playing antag.

You are only antag a few times, those times should be fun and not shitty because of pointless hugbox nerfs.

MedicInDisquise · Tue Aug 12, 2014 4:42 pm

Hugbox is a stupid term, but that's for another post.

Sure, yes. Antags should have fun. But getting ebowed and then esworded, or parapen+c4 is unfun for essentially removing people from rounds and their jobs permanently, and being extremely easy for the antag side to do, removing most challenge.

I feel you should be rewarded for taking the time to go to Ghetto Toxins and blow it up with the body inside, but not be rewarded or encouraged to esword somebody and plant c4 on them, gibbing them and removing any chance for them to be borged or cloned without science help. Those people are called powergamers and make it only fun for themselves.

Miauw · Post by **Miauw** » Tue Aug 12, 2014 4:49 pm #23893

Phalanx300 wrote:
Miauw wrote:if you think fun should be mostly for the antags, please stop playing antag.
You are only antag a few times, those times should be fun and not shitty because of pointless hugbox nerfs.

those times should be fun for everyone else too, not just for you. thats what my changes did, increase the overall fun level.

sleepypens are intended to be used for killing people.

Lo6a4evskiy · Post by **Lo6a4evskiy** » Tue Aug 12, 2014 5:27 pm #23895

Phalanx300 wrote:
Miauw wrote:if you think fun should be mostly for the antags, please stop playing antag.
You are only antag a few times, those times should be fun and not shitty because of pointless hugbox nerfs.

If you're having fun only by fucking up others, you should probably go.

Phalanx300 · Post by **Phalanx300** » Wed Aug 13, 2014 1:15 pm #23973

Lo6a4evskiy wrote:
Phalanx300 wrote:
Miauw wrote:if you think fun should be mostly for the antags, please stop playing antag.
You are only antag a few times, those times should be fun and not shitty because of pointless kickin' rad place to be nerfs.
If you're having fun only by fucking up others, you should probably go.

I introduce you to the antag role. You may be on the wrong forums. The entire goal of the antags is to screw things up.

Miauw · Post by **Miauw** » Wed Aug 13, 2014 1:30 pm #23975

the goal of antags is to make the round fun.

Phalanx300 · Post by **Phalanx300** » Wed Aug 13, 2014 1:46 pm #23980

Miauw wrote:the goal of antags is to make the round fun.

"Try to survive in SS13", the classic line of the game. Doesn't sound all that fun to me. And this sleepy pen change only makes it so now I am forced to make stunprods with cablecuffs. (like lings) I can still screw people over it just means I have to do more stuff beforehand, essentially making this change useless and serving no purpose.

I always try to do fun stuff such as locking my target in a maze of electrified grilles and stuff like that but this sleepy pen nerf just made that harder for no good reason.

MedicInDisquise · Wed Aug 13, 2014 1:48 pm

Antags should fuck up other people, yes. They should do it in a way that's also fun for the other party.

Lets look at it objectively. Most players do NOT like having control taken away from them. This is why the Sandman and Natascha was despised and overpowered at debut. (Yes, I know TF2 isn't exactly the pinnacle of game balance.) They took away control and made them extremely easy to kill for little to no effort, especially for the Natascha.

The reason why the Natascha and Sandman isn't exactly as bad as this is because respawn is in TF2, and respawn usually didn't take too long. The most would be an uber lost. However, with the parapen, it usually led up to a death. Which, in SS13, is usually permanent and removes you from the game completely (usually).

The parapen was bad because it took away control and usually led to death, which booted you out the game completely in most occasions. This was usually not fun for the victim, and which was ultimately why the parapen and c4 was nerfed.

Phalanx300 · Post by **Phalanx300** » Wed Aug 13, 2014 1:52 pm #23982

MedicInDisquise wrote:Antags should fuck up other people, yes. They should do it in a way that's also fun for the other party.

Lets look at it objectively. Most players do NOT like having control taken away from them. This is why the Sandman and Natascha was despised and overpowered at debut. (Yes, I know TF2 isn't exactly the pinnacle of game balance.) They took away control and made them extremely easy to kill for little to no effort, especially for the Natascha.

The reason why the Natascha and Sandman isn't exactly as bad as this is because respawn is in TF2, and respawn usually didn't take too long. The most would be an uber lost. However, with the parapen, it usually led up to a death. Which, in SS13, is usually permanent and removes you from the game completely (usually).

The parapen was bad because it took away control and usually led to death, which booted you out the game completely in most occasions. This was usually not fun for the victim, and which was ultimately why the parapen and c4 was nerfed.

Losing is never fun, being eaten by the singularity or blown up by a toxins bomb. Or being shocked to crit from doors (or right, this also got nerfed!) etc. Being unable to quickly end your target means the fun ends for you.

Miauw · Post by **Miauw** » Wed Aug 13, 2014 2:01 pm #23983

i'll add a loop that has a chance to kill a random person every 100 ticks.
that's fun, right? because hey, TRY TO SURVIVE IN SPACE STATION 13!

the parapen was a fucking terrible item, there was literally no counter to it, so it was removed, which made ss13 more fun. git gud and deal with it.

Phalanx300 · Post by **Phalanx300** » Wed Aug 13, 2014 2:02 pm #23984

Miauw wrote:i'll add a loop that has a chance to kill a random person every 100 ticks.
that's fun, right? because hey, TRY TO SURVIVE IN SPACE STATION 13!

No point, the loop will get nerfed once a coder dies. Like all the other things. Oh electrified doors which instacrits me? NERF!

Removing the parapen has no effect, I'll just make a stunprod and do exactly the same. Only takes more time to complete the stuff I need beforehand... So lame and no purpose, nerf plz I lost.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Wed Aug 13, 2014 2:43 pm #23986

At least you admit that the Sleepy Pen originally was a "one-hit win" weapon.

Now you have to make some actual effort to silently kill off someone. Of course you can still easily kill people loudly, until Security busts in the door.

Phalanx300 · Post by **Phalanx300** » Wed Aug 13, 2014 2:58 pm #23988

Steelpoint wrote:At least you admit that the Sleepy Pen originally was a "one-hit win" weapon.

Now you have to make some actual effort to silently kill off someone. Of course you can still easily kill people loudly, until Security busts in the door.

Yes it was a one-hit win weapon, but only a single use. I always used it in conjuction with the gas mask in order to infiltrate. Nerfing C4 was big enough change IMO, seeing how we are talking about a single use weapon, not something that can be used against the entire crew, I mean not even a point increase just plain out removal of the ability? Way too harsh.

Revert Sleepy Pen Change