Traitor Chem Kit too hilariously deadly

[Yakumo_Chen]

You mix them all together and it is more or less an instant kill. Syringe gun, sleepy pen, it doesn't actually matter.

Sleepy pen can do it without anyone noticing except the victim, who will invariably die in seconds anyway.

Really needs a nerf because I see too many rounds where people are just slaughtered by it with zero effort, especially sleepy pen since it's an undetectable murderbone.

[CPTANT]

It is extremely easy to counter when you are discovered.

I highly prefer this over "hurd dur ebow + esword murderbone".

[Yakumo_Chen]

counter how?

It's a silent instant kill with the pen.

I've seen people just hang around medbay and pen everyone to death and nobody is the wiser because there's no indication on who's doing it.

On top of that, it's 6 TC for a box and has probably 3 dozen uses if portioned right (it doesn't take much, seriously)

[Steelpoint]

Its very powerful but I personally rarely see it in action.

Fill a syringe with one unit of each chemical and shoot with a syringe gun, or place one chem each inside a Sleepy Pen (you can refill them nowadays) and you get a near instant kill. Its semi random but the victim is not going to get long to do much sans scream for help, at best they might be able to take a swing or two at the attacker.

The only counter is to wear a suit that blocks syringes and similar, but that requires foreword.

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On the one hands it is extremely powerful, but it also needs some prep. You need access to a Syringe gun, or you need to buy a Sleepy Pen (Hypospray is not as effective as it injects five units at a time, you need fifteen units in to get a good kill to time ratio). Getting a syringe gun needs either good RnD research or to sneak into medbay, the Pen costs 4 TCs which when coupled with the Kit costs 10 TCs, which is inbetween a Sketchin and Revolver. You also need access to a Dropper to get the maximum mileage from the item, so you can transfer one unit at a time. Alternatively you can use a chem machine but that's more risky.

Being conservative a single poison kit can get thirty uses before its depleted, versus a Sketchin with eight rounds or a revolver with seven. However its easier to get more Sketchin/Revolver ammo via a hacked Autolathe whereas more chems can only be bought via TCs.

-------

I can understand being murdered by some guy in an instant is shitty but I don't know if it needs to be nerfed or removed. I'll let others discuss that.

[CPTANT]

Slipping people as traitor clown and feeding them poison beer while playing the sad trombone was some of the most fun I had as a traitor.

[kevinz000]

goofchem is unbalanced and op anyways i can do almost as lethal without traitor chems but it'd actually take way more effort to mix them.

[Kel]

do you make forum threads / issue reports over literally every death you suffer

[Armhulen]

do you make forum threads / issue reports over literally every death you suffer

yes

[CPTANT]

goofchem is unbalanced and op anyways i can do almost as lethal without traitor chems but it'd actually take way more effort to mix them.

Just inject someone with phlogiston, it is an extremely effective poison when injected.

Ohw and injecting someone with black powder or nitroglycerin and then setting them on fire is just hilarious.

[CPTANT]

Also define "way too often"

I have literally never been poisoned by a poisonous sleepy pen.....

[Tokiko2]

Just wait until you figure out that there are far worse deathmixes that you can make in chemistry for free and in potentially unlimited amounts that work much faster than any of the traitor chems in the kit.

[John_Oxford]

If someone spends 10 TC for a instant kill silent weapon, compared too everything else that can be bought for 10 TC, i agree that it's a strong weapon, but i wouldn't say its overpowered.

There are much stronger death mixes you can make in chemistry that will do a much better job than any of the traitor poisons will, if you feel so strongly annoyed about dying to traitor chem's, carry a charcoal pill bottle in your pocket, i have yet to play around where a chemist told me no i won't make you a bottle of 50u charcoal pills.

Eating two negates a fuck ton of toxins damage, and i think, correct me if i'm wrong, but also dilutes/purges chemicals from your blood stream?


Regardless of that fact, even if you upped the TC cost to where a poison kit costed 16 with a pen being 4, it wouldn't affect the buy rate because its poison, chemicals solely developed to kill you fast.

Do you mean to tell me that we should make a chemical that's men't to kill you not kill you?

[The Clowns Pocket]

Thanks now I know some Clown Gimmicks

[iamgoofball]

this sounds like

[Cobby]

you can buy an emag and craft the most OP chem [ z o m b i e - p o w d e r ] and still get to use the emag after so this is actually fairly tame

[PKPenguin321]

you can buy an emag and craft the most OP chem [ z o m b i e - p o w d e r ] and still get to use the emag after so this is actually fairly tame

its not that op when compared to vanilla chem that can make instakill mixes

[DemonFiren]

Do you mean to tell me that we should make a chemical that's men't to kill you not kill you?

a chemical that's men't to kill you

men't to kill you

men't

how did this even happen
jesus fuck

[Cobby]

you can buy an emag and craft the most OP chem [ z o m b i e - p o w d e r ] and still get to use the emag after so this is actually fairly tame

its not that op when compared to vanilla chem that can make instakill mixes

*shrug* I just use vanilla when I wanna murderbone and I use alcohol when I want to heal

[iamgoofball]

you can buy an emag and craft the most OP chem [ z o m b i e - p o w d e r ] and still get to use the emag after so this is actually fairly tame

its not that op when compared to vanilla chem that can make instakill mixes

Instant stun is the same as instant kill

[PKPenguin321]

you can buy an emag and craft the most OP chem [ z o m b i e - p o w d e r ] and still get to use the emag after so this is actually fairly tame

its not that op when compared to vanilla chem that can make instakill mixes

Instant stun is the same as instant kill

this doesnt change my point

[WJohnston]

it's not about whether silent instant kills are balanced

it's about whether they're fun to play against, or have it used on you.

we got rid of parasting for a reason. we got rid of stungloves for a reason. we got rid of the old sleepy pen + c4 combo. instant invisible death is not fun to play against.

[Limski]

it's not about whether silent instant kills are balanced

it's about whether they're fun to play against, or have it used on you.

we got rid of parasting for a reason. we got rid of stungloves for a reason. we got rid of the old sleepy pen + c4 combo. instant invisible death is not fun to play against.

Following that logic would mean all stuns would be removed since they're not fun to play against
I'm looking forward to the removal of tasers and flashbangs then :^)

I think the chem kit, its usage and cost is fine, unless we want to make antags the underdogs which seems to be the case based on what we got rid of so far.

[CPTANT]

it's not about whether silent instant kills are balanced

it's about whether they're fun to play against, or have it used on you.

we got rid of parasting for a reason. we got rid of stungloves for a reason. we got rid of the old sleepy pen + c4 combo. instant invisible death is not fun to play against.

It isn't instant. You always have several seconds to act.

You can chuck charcoal or send out calls for help in that time.

[Steelpoint]

When judging a weapon you need to judge it alongside the humble Taser and other powerful traitor weapons.

One of the most powerful weapons in the entire game is the standard issue sidearm given to any Security Officer, the Taser. If you get stunned by a Taser then in 95% of circumstances you are pretty much as good as dead, the weapon used on you is a mere afterthought, sketchin, revolver, syringe gun or a toolbox, exceptions of Changelings, good Wizards and the rare case of someone having Adrenals.

Honestly anything else is just theory crafting since if you can just stun someone with a common station based weapon, baton, flash or taser, it kinda makes other weapon choices a moot point.

At the very least the Chem Kit require a lot of prep work before you can use it, and if you get caught in a bad position it is difficult to work with. Revolvers and Sketchins can be reloaded and have a larger ammo reserves, chems need to be manually and individually placed into a single beaker/syringe and each syringes needs to be pre-loaded and then loaded individually.

[Ergovisavi]

This should be renamed to "Easy delivery methods of reagents are anti-fun and should be removed". Our reagent system doesn't even attempt to be balanced in the slightest, and as a result they're just one-click-kills at various ranges.

Being able to make a deadly poison: Good!
Being able to add reagents to another mob: Good!
Being able to make a deadly poison and then put it in a ranged projectile: Uh....
Being able to make a deadly poison and then put it in a ranged projectile that you can pull out of your backpack and instantly fire in like 3 frames: UUHHHHHHHHH....
Being able to make a deadly poison and then put it in a ranged projectile that you can pull out of your backpack and instantly fire in like 3 frames and manufacture this at basically no cost to yourself whatsoever: We crossed the line like three iterations back

[kevinz000]

Ergo is right

[WJohnston]

it's not about whether silent instant kills are balanced

it's about whether they're fun to play against, or have it used on you.

we got rid of parasting for a reason. we got rid of stungloves for a reason. we got rid of the old sleepy pen + c4 combo. instant invisible death is not fun to play against.

Following that logic would mean all stuns would be removed since they're not fun to play against
I'm looking forward to the removal of tasers and flashbangs then :^)

I think the chem kit, its usage and cost is fine, unless we want to make antags the underdogs which seems to be the case based on what we got rid of so far.

Correct. Tasers and flashbangs and all that bullshit needs to go, and are the usual suspects whenever a combat rework is discussed/presented.

[CPTANT]

This should be renamed to "Easy delivery methods of reagents are anti-fun and should be removed". Our reagent system doesn't even attempt to be balanced in the slightest, and as a result they're just one-click-kills at various ranges.

Being able to make a deadly poison: Good!
Being able to add reagents to another mob: Good!
Being able to make a deadly poison and then put it in a ranged projectile: Uh....
Being able to make a deadly poison and then put it in a ranged projectile that you can pull out of your backpack and instantly fire in like 3 frames: UUHHHHHHHHH....
Being able to make a deadly poison and then put it in a ranged projectile that you can pull out of your backpack and instantly fire in like 3 frames and manufacture this at basically no cost to yourself whatsoever: We crossed the line like three iterations back

Still not more powerful than a taser.

[Steelpoint]

Well I'd love for someone to attempt a combat rework to reward damage over stuns. But the only way I can see that is a overhaul to our combat system and our medical system.

Maybe you'll just remove ranged stun reliability, maybe you'll make the damage system so that one or two laser hits is just as deadly as a taser hit. Who knows.

[Armhulen]

This should be renamed to "Easy delivery methods of reagents are anti-fun and should be removed". Our reagent system doesn't even attempt to be balanced in the slightest, and as a result they're just one-click-kills at various ranges.

Being able to make a deadly poison: Good!
Being able to add reagents to another mob: Good!
Being able to make a deadly poison and then put it in a ranged projectile: Uh....
Being able to make a deadly poison and then put it in a ranged projectile that you can pull out of your backpack and instantly fire in like 3 frames: UUHHHHHHHHH....
Being able to make a deadly poison and then put it in a ranged projectile that you can pull out of your backpack and instantly fire in like 3 frames and manufacture this at basically no cost to yourself whatsoever: We crossed the line like three iterations back

Still not more powerful than a taser.

tasers have range limits, syringes don't!

[Steelpoint]

The range limit is a moot point.

Syringes don't function well during a fluid combat scenario due to the very high investment in each syringes, if you miss you will never get the syringe back and unless you break into RnD you only get one shot before you have to reload. Whereas you have little investment in each Taser round in comparison. Also on a tactic note you are better off using disable rounds in fluid combat over a taser since you get more mileage from disabler rounds than taser rounds, taser rounds are good for getting the drop on someone or if you are in a area that restricts movement.

Once you are stunned its all over, from the mightiest Captain to the humblest of Assistants. Until that changes then I honestly think now that this discussion is a moot point in terms of the poison kit.

The Poison Kit is so contentious because its one of the only weapons in the game that is actually on par with lethality with a Taser, though the Taser needs a follow up the Poision Kit just kills you on the spot.

[Incomptinence]

A push against stealthy low warning high investment or finite use stuff basically enforces new murderboner tools only design.

Leading to stuff like desword buffs, undying armblade lings, holoparas (gone) etc.

Loud shit is already good enough to kill you very fast so finite use stuff has to be stealthy or it's suicidal. Tho abloo bloo bloo it's not fair.

So we make all the decent shit loud infinite use stuff then act surprised when everyone murder bones.

Fuck it's easy as shit to print a ton of revolver ammo but it's at least a prep step for reusing the 1-2 anyone's dead (armour nerfs YAAAY) gun of inevitable game over one of the better designed items in the traitor arsenal.

How about a reality check any of the murderboner weapons would have you down quicker than a poison cocktail and for blades would then chop your brain out.
If you are the first victim there is no warning on any decent traitor weapon before it has already got you wounded and bleeding to the point escape is near impossible so like with finite use stealthy shit you are going down regardless.

If you are alone no one sees the messages related to the murder and we bring this splitting of hairs down to the mean old poison injection not making a big loud sound to let people a few rooms away know you died.
Stop being so attached to getting cloned.

[Steelpoint]

When it comes to the Revolver, it's a three hit crit against anyone wearing station bound armour, this includes Security Officers, the Head of Security and even the Captain. Once you get the second hit in the user suffers significant slow down so a third shot should be easy to land.

Of course most of the time I see someone use a Revolver they oft pair it with a Taser to reduce ammo expenditure.

[Not-Dorsidarf]

I'd like to suggest putting 2-3u of Beepsky Smash into your parapen murdermix if you can arrange it. Paralysing someone usually makes them panic and makes them less able to feed themselves the multiple curative pills they need to survive your toxins

[InsaneHyena]

>It's a "Yakumo posts I ded pls remove thread" episode again
Somebody change the channel, I hate this show.

[DemonFiren]

>It's a "Yakumo posts I ded pls remove thread" episode again
Somebody change the channel, I hate this show.

Hahahaha Nigga Just Walk Away From The Screen Like Nigga Close Your Eyes Haha

[Incomptinence]

Just going to say, the revolver does about 35 to anyone in standard sec armour unless the locker armour is different to regular armour in anything but the sprite.

It's pretty shit outside limited or surprise engagements if not a potentially effective discouragement.

I still dislike ammunition for it being printable in abundance, especially when it guarantees a murderbone, provided everyone comes at you one at a time, if there's no eye in the sky to stop you.

Ah my bad I thought the AP values they slapped on everything would make it get at least 50 damage through.

[Professor Hangar]

These threads are great for learning new ways to kill people.

[kevinz000]

they do 42 what are you on cosmic
60 daamge revolver bullet * (1 - 0.3 which is armor vest's projectile defense) = 42
and it still 2hits if you're smart and target limbs first.

[Yakumo_Chen]

it's not about whether silent instant kills are balanced

it's about whether they're fun to play against, or have it used on you.

we got rid of parasting for a reason. we got rid of stungloves for a reason. we got rid of the old sleepy pen + c4 combo. instant invisible death is not fun to play against.

It isn't instant. You always have several seconds to act.

You can chuck charcoal or send out calls for help in that time.

Unless you are constantly carrying charcoal (which is next to nobody unless you're actually a doctor yourself this will never happen. You can't scream either since Toxins Kit deathmixes also mute you.

The problem is that it's TOO stealthy. You can kill a whole room full of people with the parapen Death Chem combo and even if it's in medbay most people won't notice anything while they're trying to treat the people who are dying until you're the only one left standing with the guy injecting chems.

[kevinz000]

Whoever thinks a proper mix gives you several seconds to act is not correct.

[calzilla1]

ITT people dont know that the emp flashlight is actually the most op item in the game

[Dr_bee]

Switch the kit with a goonstation style random poison bottle. Also make it job restricted to med-sci jobs to make it existing blow your cover a LITTLE bit.

[pidey]

This is part of the reason I added spewium to the traitor kit.

I added a poison that is BAD to mix with other poisons.

Perhaps we should make some of the poisons neutralize other poisons, or when mixed, result in less harmful ones?