/tg/Station 13

I can confirm that you can run across about the throwing distance of lava tiles (about 3 tiles i would say max) by throwing all your belongings across leaving you with only a water bottle from the sustenance vendor and your internals (uniform and everything else thrown across). You then douse yourself in water using harm intent and it removes your overheating and state of being on fire leaving you burnt but alive. Pick clothes & belongings up afterwards and seek medical attention or build a shelter & gather lavaland plants.

The pod shuttle door is also all access, so if the mining pod is not docked up you can walk directly into the base and return to the mining bay. Former fears about gulag prisoners using this to escape are valid, Bawhoppen should be held accountable for adding the waterbottle object in this way and ANY container of water (including mushroom bowls natively collected on lavaland) can functionally do the same thing

The mining station gulag has a sink also, the Gulag needs to be re-fortified or alternatively taken away from lavaland.

Readds deepstorage w/ tweaks AND adds water bottles to vending machines #26709

>Using the gulag ever

You deserve this

Keeps greyshirts off the station even longer. Fine by me.

Just make the river nine tiles wide and throw some more static legion spawns on it.

>he spilled the sekrit escape technique

fuck you

"Who the hell merged something adding water to the gulag?"
Oh...

I might PR a removal later, but I am not sure if it is much of an issue though.

The gulag teleport beacon can also be lavaed. I feel like this should at least require a wrench to unanchor it.

Protip: they can't escape the gulag if they're dead.

Just kill them

Has anyone actually survived a gulag escape and made it back to the station? Honest question.

Luke Cox wrote:Has anyone actually survived a gulag escape and made it back to the station? Honest question.

I've seen it happen a few times, I generally execute them at that point.

BeeSting12 wrote:

Luke Cox wrote:Has anyone actually survived a gulag escape and made it back to the station? Honest question.

I've seen it happen a few times, I generally execute them at that point.

^
It shows how stupid grey shitters are too. Unless they're permad or given a ridiculous sentence it doesn't take too long to get the points they need to serve their sentence. It'd be so much quicker and safer than trying to break out of the gulag and then try to make their way to the mining station in the dark without mesons or any proper means to defend themselves against hostile wildlife or murderous ash liggers. On top of that if they get back they're probably gonna have to lay low or risk being killed or perma'd on sight by security.

If someone gulag's me without an excellent reason their ass is getting beat when I escape.

Luke Cox wrote:Has anyone actually survived a gulag escape and made it back to the station? Honest question.

I escaped into mining base, got picked up by a cult immediately walking into the base and returned to station that way, otherwise i could have hitched a ride and smuggled myself in or beaten up a miner from there if i needed to based on my level of antagonism.

Armhulen wrote:>he spilled the sekrit escape technique

fuck you

I cannot stand idly by because this is so laughably easy, it makes the gulag feel SUPER unsecure.

---

I honestly feel that the asteroid gulag was more secure, because usually attempting to float back to the station was nigh on impossible because of space damage and of course the entire reason we have storage implants etc is to offer you something to use in a difficult situation such as perma or gulag when your freedom is compromised.

If they need the gulag they deserve death.

Would it be a problem to place the gulag randomly on lavaland instead of a predictable spot?

Kyrah Abattoir wrote:Would it be a problem to place the gulag randomly on lavaland instead of a predictable spot?

inb4 it lands right next to ass walkers or syndie base

I would say almost half the people I send to the gulag escape this way nowadays.

Makes the entire gulag rather pointless.

DemonFiren wrote:

Kyrah Abattoir wrote:Would it be a problem to place the gulag randomly on lavaland instead of a predictable spot?

inb4 it lands right next to ass walkers or syndie base

That sounds hilarious

There should be a river that flows through Mining base and labor base.

DemonFiren wrote:

Kyrah Abattoir wrote:Would it be a problem to place the gulag randomly on lavaland instead of a predictable spot?

inb4 it lands right next to ass walkers or syndie base

Emergent gameplay

I never use the Gulag since it seems most people know how to escape from it, at least people who do enough to warrent Gulaging.

FantasticFwoosh wrote:I honestly feel that the asteroid gulag was more secure, because usually attempting to float back to the station was nigh on impossible because of space damage and of course the entire reason we have storage implants etc is to offer you something to use in a difficult situation such as perma or gulag when your freedom is compromised.

It wasn't secure. You could tunnel to the western mining station pretty fast then break a window before taking too much pressure damage. Afterwards it was a quick trip on the disposal ride and then bam you got a full space suit since there were never 3 miners.

Also it makes no sense to me to have the gulag be an inescapable death camp when its supposed be a punishment like timed cells. Meanwhile perma, a place that's supposed be used on irredeemable baddies, is a fucking joke.

That's a fair point but designing it to be intentionally escapable when on TG we especially compared to other servers have a gameplay aspect in which we lock down players IC'ly in punishment only makes partial sense. The traitor storage implant example for instance, just call shuttle & pull out your emag stored in there, done, you escaped, it was a prepared plan.

• The only effective barriers without preparation are space, solid walls and chasms as per doctorphil's item damaging re-write all of station perma's doors & gulag doors can be breached by collecting a item powerful and convenient enough like a spear (in which boxstation's tubelights coincidentally give off the most ideal amount of wire to make 1 spear)
  
  Again, see the means of fabricating your means of escape as per being a well prepared antagonist rather than a regular player who shouldn't have gotten thrown in there for shittery and subsequently given a get meta get out of jail card. If mapmakers don't start making gulag and perma's inescapable besides from intentional exit points that take no generic player meta-planning problems like this are going to persist and sour our IC punishment systems.
  
  • Gulag and perma currently are ineffective jokes, a brig cell with no timer (or the solitary cell) is more secure because it is seen and monitored very consistently
  • Player culture is probably going to shift to that captains/HOS's aren't going to bother to use the IC containment options and either continuously N20 stunlock people on internals or execute them outright.

Antagonists are not meant to really go braindead when they get caught and perma'd, but neither are greyshirts who have been perma'd meant to relish the opportunity to escape and cause more havoc and also pave the way for the real antagonists which have been perma'd with them to get out too and the lengthy repairs required in some circumstances.

If greyshirts have earned my ire to the point I feel they deserve perma, honestly the round would be better with them executed at that point anyway.

Gulag is supposed to be a brig sentence that forces the player to actually do some kind of task to get out, not just a alt-tab until you can leave, or a game of "annoy the warden as much as possible". If a player has earned it (I set the bar at attacking security or damaging/hacking brig) and escape in some hacky way or make it impossible to use well, then that should be the point they've earned their "stay out of the round free" card.

Yet objectively people feel the gulag rehab happens too fast because of mineral point counts in which simply you can dig for absurd amounts of sand easily in the place of small amounts of metal. You get it then you get out, then you get thrown in again and back out still what feels like too fast to really be a punishment.

I can''t count the amount of times that prisoners don't return the things from gulag either, usually they immediately start greyshitting the moment they are back on the station taking the orange jumpsuit, airmask & tank with them without actually using the console that would release their belongings and clothes from the telegulag storage compartment.

Its sort of TG's playstyle and policy to lock down people rather than what other servers do in killing people because the sheer amount of admin drama about "what is a rightful death for a non-valid" that can follow up a simple decision to execute someone which wallows people into OOC discussions and away from the round. But hence being light on allowing people to escape from gulag is basically violating that in favour of execution.

Can we just get a clandestine policy choice made on whether in the existing state of the code (ability to destroy doors, water bottle exploits etc) we should actually just remove perma & gulag because they are critically unsecure without codifying them to make them inescapable? We can't exactly turn around and remove the item damage system without screwing over the wider scheme of the game code or forcing a revert, and while bottles are easy enough, any form of container such as a empty ice cup can fufill the same purpose.

Gulag is so easily escapable, it's absurd, and now that Fwoosh posted the way to do it on the forum, EVERYBODY fucking does it. I don't gulag people anymore, I straight up execute.

god damn idiot postin it on the forums and now everyone and their dog can escape like fuck

Armhulen wrote:god damn idiot postin it on the forums and now everyone and their dog can escape like fuck

Obligatory

Fix it then, serves you right for not fortifying the place.

you can just dump the vending machine in lava and then it works fine sooo

Armhulen wrote:you can just dump the vending machine in lava and then it works fine sooo

Empty the water bottles and fill them with acid.

Then screenshot the look on those peoples faces when they try to extinguish themselves.

But that's meta to remove something at roundstart (again it doesn't functionally change the issue that crossing lava is simply determined by how fast you can extinguish yourself with water reagent)

And you can just tip out the contents if you're suspicious and refill it from the sink

But you're wrong, we allow all roundstart prep except modifying atmos to be ai sabotage proof

Armhulen wrote:But you're wrong, we allow all roundstart prep except modifying atmos to be ai sabotage proof

Funny that you say that when I got banned once for depowering the AI core door. Yeah the the rules say you can bolt it, but actually keeping it effectively shut is of course pure evil meta.

https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/29400

Step one to making gulag harder to escape. I'm going to look into turning the gulag beacon into a floor so that it can be removed/destroyed with proper tools but not broken by a pickaxe. Or possibly just raising the damage resist.

Armhulen wrote:But you're wrong, we allow all roundstart prep except modifying atmos to be ai sabotage proof

Try hiding the armory in the warden's locker roundstart and see what happens.

BeeSting12 wrote:https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/29400

Step one to making gulag harder to escape. I'm going to look into turning the gulag beacon into a floor so that it can be removed/destroyed with proper tools but not broken by a pickaxe. Or possibly just raising the damage resist.

Armhulen wrote:But you're wrong, we allow all roundstart prep except modifying atmos to be ai sabotage proof

Try hiding the armory in the warden's locker roundstart and see what happens.

i stand corrected

FantasticFwoosh wrote:And you can just tip out the contents if you're suspicious and refill it from the sink

FantasticFwoosh wrote:the sink

FantasticFwoosh wrote:sink

Yeah, right hand side of the pillar in the middle of the gulag, it has a wonky sprite but it supplies infinite water. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Remove the goddamn gulag.

Every time I am put into it, I beg to be stuffed in perma - even if its a very minor crime. Every time I go into gulag, I suicide.

Fuck this god damn shit.

The Clowns Pocket wrote:Remove the goddamn gulag.

Every time I am put into it, I beg to be stuffed in perma - even if its a very minor crime. Every time I go into gulag, I suicide.

Fuck this god damn shit.

working as intended

Armhulen wrote:But you're wrong, we allow all roundstart prep except modifying atmos to be ai sabotage proof

Wot?

The Clowns Pocket wrote:Remove the goddamn gulag.

Every time I am put into it, I beg to be stuffed in perma - even if its a very minor crime. Every time I go into gulag, I suicide.

Fuck this god damn shit.

Funny because usually I put little shits there that I hope commit suicide.

More than half of those can't be arsed to mine even 200 points of materials.

calzilla1 wrote:

Armhulen wrote:But you're wrong, we allow all roundstart prep except modifying atmos to be ai sabotage proof

Wot?

Atmos techs are not allowed to edit atmos at roundstart so that the AI cannot use it for malicious purposes. While this might not make sense IC, it's a necessary OOC precedent for some game mechanics to work. Atmos techs are allowed if they have any reasonable suspicion of the AI being rogue.

i was thinking about this but i was WRONG OK don't get yourself banned

FantasticFwoosh wrote:(ability to destroy doors, water bottle exploits etc)

I'm working on one of those. I have a PR up that's been frozen that raises airlock deflection to 21 to prevent throwspears being able to break open doors.

I've actually seen a greyshirt break open the AI upload after removing the reinforcements with spear-throwing in ~4 minutes then use the metal to cheese the stun turrets and it's grown extremely infuriating over how easy it is to break a door permanently. It's so easy now that all you need to do is smash a window and some light fixture frames and you have everything you need to make a spear and then that's all you need to get into or out of anywhere.



As for the water, why can't we just make it incapable of spilling like cans are?

delete this thread

A while back I significantly buffed gulag in terms of ore chances so being a prisoner shouldn't be that bad

ExcessiveCobblestone wrote:A while back I significantly buffed gulag in terms of ore chances so being a prisoner shouldn't be that bad

don't think anyone noticed because I've never seen anyone do their points goal lol