/tg/Station 13

Posted: **Wed Jul 19, 2017 1:35 am**

With the addition of the new painted augmentation parts, it is more fun than ever to be augmented. The one problem is that it takes FOREVER to get the surgery done.

Each body part takes a whopping 7 steps to augment. Drapes, scalpel, hemostat, retractor, scalpel, saw, augment. Repeat this 5 times total. This is a total of 35 steps for a full augmentation, much longer than any other surgery or medical treatment int he game. It is also very click intensive, which can cramp the hand a bit.

Augments are powerful, but they are not amazingly powerful. You are resistant to damage but you cannot be healed by conventional methods, making healing take far longer. Also your would be rescuer will most likely not realize you are augmented and load you up with drugs while you slowly die and then wonder what happened. You also have the GLARING weakness to EMPs.

Compare to genetics which can give you invisibility, cold resistance, x-ray vision, telekinesis and hulk, powers that are far stronger than augmentation, all with the press of a couple of buttons.

I suggest reducing the amount of steps in the surgery, possibly making the initial prep for augmentation only need to be done once and then you can put all the parts in. It still will require the help of another person to gain the augments, and it still leaves you vulnerable to being murdered like any other surgery, the only difference is that a roboticist or doctor doesnt have to spend 5 minutes per patient in what is often a 20 minute round.

augmentation is cool, implants are cool, they take FAR too long to get with how fast rounds are now, please consider speeding up the process.

Posted: **Wed Jul 19, 2017 1:48 am**

I completely agree but you're silly for saying getting all genetics powers is just pressing some buttons.

Posted: **Wed Jul 19, 2017 2:06 am**

Armhulen wrote:I completely agree but you're silly for saying getting all genetics powers is just pressing some buttons.

I am speaking of after the research is done. passing out powers en-mass is significantly easier than augmenting multiple people.

Genetics has all the work front loaded, after that it becomes easy to hand out the powers. Augmentation has the work spread out among each recipient, and also has a metal cost.

Posted: **Wed Jul 19, 2017 2:31 am**

I'd agree if it were only cosmetics, but prosthetics received buffs and the time spent is supposed to be one of the disadvantages to being a protoman

Posted: **Wed Jul 19, 2017 2:42 am**

I'm fairly certain it's quicker to get the limb amputated and then do prosthetic replacement surgery.

Plus you get the spare limbs from prosthetic replacement while augmentation sort of qdels the limbs.

Posted: **Wed Jul 19, 2017 2:44 am**

well lets speed it up then, maaan

Posted: **Wed Jul 19, 2017 2:53 am**

I'm tempted to make the surgical toolset arm buildable and have fast toolspeed so people have a very clear reason to want it.

Posted: **Wed Jul 19, 2017 6:55 am**

D&B wrote:I'd agree if it were only cosmetics, but prosthetics received buffs and the time spent is supposed to be one of the disadvantages to being a protoman

As I stated before, Augmentation is powerful but has enough downsides for it to not be a good idea to get every round. It is very much like genetics powers in power, but at the moment is a VERY unfun to get, and hard to convince someone to take the time to do it to you.

Even if the surgery is sped up getting augmented still requires trusting someone enough to let them cut you up, stripping naked and potientally having your stuff stole, lying on a table helpless against attack for a non-trivial period of time, and spending a non-trivial amount of metal to build. All for what amounts to a glorified hardsuit that makes you get stunned by EMPs and makes you impossible to heal via normal means.

There are enough disadvantages to getting augmented, having it take 3-5 minutes out of what is often a 20-30 minute round sitting on a surgical table is a bit much. To put this in perspective, this is 10-16% of a 30 minute round spent not playing the damn game
.

Anonmare wrote:I'm tempted to make the surgical toolset arm buildable and have fast toolspeed so people have a very clear reason to want it.

Would be a fun implant but is not really a solution to making augment surgery faster, as the toolset arm implants require a decent amount of RnD being done to get, and would require TWO people sit for surgery.

Still, add it, it would be a fun implant to have as a doctor, plus it technically would be an implanted weapon, which we dont have yet.

Posted: **Wed Jul 19, 2017 7:58 am**

Each body part takes a whopping 7 steps to augment. Drapes, scalpel, hemostat, retractor, scalpel, saw, augment. Repeat this 5 times total. This is a total of 35 steps for a full augmentation, much longer than any other surgery or medical treatment int he game. It is also very click intensive, which can cramp the hand a bit.

This comparison is not valid.
Augmenting someone's entire body is not one surgery, it is, as you already mentioned, 5 surgeries.
So 5x something taking 5x as long is entirely sensible, and there's no reason to change augmenting speeds at all.

Posted: **Thu Jul 20, 2017 9:41 am**

Port /vg/'s multi-tool surgical tools like the one that does like the saw, scalpel, and hemostat or something all at once. It's great.

Posted: **Thu Jul 20, 2017 4:18 pm**

Yakumo_Chen wrote:Port /vg/'s multi-tool surgical tools like the one that does like the saw, scalpel, and hemostat or something all at once. It's great.

They're switch tools in code and they're better than our system which is to physically put the item in your hand rather than using a container.

Posted: **Sat Jul 22, 2017 2:22 pm**

Make a robotic arm that performs all surgery steps automatically after drapes are applied

Problem solved

Posted: **Sun Jul 23, 2017 3:31 am**

Anajamois wrote:Make a robotic arm that performs all surgery steps automatically after drapes are applied

Problem solved

If I ever git gud enough I'll probably put in an implant for research that does exactly that, maybe make it require abductor research levels as well

Posted: **Sun Jul 23, 2017 3:38 am**

Would people be okay with speeding up the surgery by way of removing a step? It'd be really easy

Posted: **Sun Jul 23, 2017 3:44 am**

Slowest part in my experience is putting the augment itself on.

Also, fun fact, amputation and prosthetic surgery for the limbs has the same effect as augmentation but has the added bonus of producing spare limbs for medical to use. Whilst augmentation doesn't produce any body parts at all.

Posted: **Sun Jul 23, 2017 3:46 am**

PKPenguin321 wrote:Would people be okay with speeding up the surgery by way of removing a step? It'd be really easy

personally I'd suggest shaving a little bit of time off the steps (usually the last one is slowest) instead of fucking with the steps themselves

Posted: **Sun Jul 23, 2017 7:10 am**

Qbopper wrote:
PKPenguin321 wrote:Would people be okay with speeding up the surgery by way of removing a step? It'd be really easy
personally I'd suggest shaving a little bit of time off the steps (usually the last one is slowest) instead of fucking with the steps themselves

Wouldnt solve how insanely click intensive the process is. 35 clicks to do the whole surgery, not including switching tools, which raises it.

makes my wrist hurt just thinking about it.

Posted: **Sun Jul 23, 2017 7:14 am**

I've gotten it down to an art and I can do it in about ~5 minutes on a good day

Posted: **Sun Jul 23, 2017 4:16 pm**

Dr_bee wrote:
Qbopper wrote:
PKPenguin321 wrote:Would people be okay with speeding up the surgery by way of removing a step? It'd be really easy
personally I'd suggest shaving a little bit of time off the steps (usually the last one is slowest) instead of fucking with the steps themselves
Wouldnt solve how insanely click intensive the process is. 35 clicks to do the whole surgery, not including switching tools, which raises it.

makes my wrist hurt just thinking about it.

that's true, I was thinking of regular surgery and not augments for some reason

Posted: **Wed Jul 26, 2017 2:58 pm**

https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic ... 27#p257227

Posted: **Wed Jul 26, 2017 3:15 pm**

IT IS NOT ONE SURGERY

Posted: **Wed Jul 26, 2017 8:02 pm**

ExcessiveCobblestone wrote:IT IS NOT ONE SURGERY

Posted: **Thu Jul 27, 2017 1:48 am**

Remie Richards wrote:
ExcessiveCobblestone wrote:IT IS NOT ONE SURGERY

My point is that it probably should be. You open the person up, shove the parts in, close them up.

instead of the clickfest we have right now.

Posted: **Thu Jul 27, 2017 2:28 am**

It's a "slice of life" means "make things easier" episode

Posted: **Thu Jul 27, 2017 3:23 am**

did you mean Quality of Life?

Posted: **Thu Jul 27, 2017 7:56 am**

Dr_bee wrote:
Remie Richards wrote:
ExcessiveCobblestone wrote:IT IS NOT ONE SURGERY
My point is that it probably should be. You open the person up, shove the parts in, close them up.

instead of the clickfest we have right now.

Well no, because then you wouldn't be able to augment single parts.
Unless you want the surgery to possibly end at any time which is unprecedented and I don't think the surgery system should be shitted up to support that.

Posted: **Thu Jul 27, 2017 5:40 pm**

Remie Richards wrote:
Dr_bee wrote:
Remie Richards wrote:
ExcessiveCobblestone wrote:IT IS NOT ONE SURGERY
My point is that it probably should be. You open the person up, shove the parts in, close them up.

instead of the clickfest we have right now.
Well no, because then you wouldn't be able to augment single parts.
Unless you want the surgery to possibly end at any time which is unprecedented and I don't think the surgery system should be shitted up to support that.

We already have a surgery that you can end at any time, it is called "Organ manipulation." I dont know the code behind it, Implants are considered organs right? making augments similar to implants might work.

moving augments from their own snowflake surgery that takes forever to organ manipulation would be a solution, or make augmentation surgery a separate version of organ manip, if being able to do augments and implants in the same surgery is too OP..

Posted: **Thu Jul 27, 2017 8:34 pm**

Does surgery even support working on body parts that aren't selected?

Posted: **Thu Jul 27, 2017 8:36 pm**

Dr_bee wrote:moving augments from their own snowflake surgery that takes forever

five surgeries*

Posted: **Thu Jul 27, 2017 9:39 pm**

Add autodocs to the game that if you stand on a tile next to them it will heal 0.5 of every damage type every 2 seconds

Add advanced autodocs that when fed augments, allow a doctor to select which augments it should apply to the person, every augment takes 15 seconds to completely implant. Patient cannot move while its being augmented (instead of it just being a tile to stand on, it would be a fancy chair, like a dentists chair, or the one in the crackhead augment dudes basement in human revolution where he fucks your augs up)

Emagging a autodoc makes it deal 0.5 damage of all types every 0.5 seconds, and have a 1% chance to change to healing 3 damage of every type every second.

Emagging a advanced autodoc without anyone in it causes the machine to fail at surgerys rapidly, when implanting.

If it's emagged while someone is in it, it delimbs the person in a neat pile, stacking their legs, arms, head, and torso in a pile next to it. It also has a 1% chance to just gib them

Fully upgrading a autodoc makes it heal 1 damage of every type every three seconds and inject you with half a unit of stimulant and cryoaxadone (for shower combos) every second

Fully upgrading a advanced autodoc makes it accept syndicate augments, complete augment surgerys in 5 seconds, and gives it a 100% chance to complete the surgery with no errors

Posted: **Fri Jul 28, 2017 12:02 am**

Remie Richards wrote:
Dr_bee wrote:moving augments from their own snowflake surgery that takes forever
five surgeries*

I love Remie

Posted: **Fri Jul 28, 2017 2:21 am**

John_Oxford wrote:Add autodocs to the game that if you stand on a tile next to them it will heal 0.5 of every damage type every 2 seconds

Add advanced autodocs that when fed augments, allow a doctor to select which augments it should apply to the person, every augment takes 15 seconds to completely implant. Patient cannot move while its being augmented (instead of it just being a tile to stand on, it would be a fancy chair, like a dentists chair, or the one in the crackhead augment dudes basement in human revolution where he fucks your augs up)

Emagging a autodoc makes it deal 0.5 damage of all types every 0.5 seconds, and have a 1% chance to change to healing 3 damage of every type every second.

Emagging a advanced autodoc without anyone in it causes the machine to fail at surgerys rapidly, when implanting.

If it's emagged while someone is in it, it delimbs the person in a neat pile, stacking their legs, arms, head, and torso in a pile next to it. It also has a 1% chance to just gib them

Fully upgrading a autodoc makes it heal 1 damage of every type every three seconds and inject you with half a unit of stimulant and cryoaxadone (for shower combos) every second

Fully upgrading a advanced autodoc makes it accept syndicate augments, complete augment surgerys in 5 seconds, and gives it a 100% chance to complete the surgery with no errors

Do not DARE ignore my previous post and pretend this is YOUR idea!!! https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic ... 27#p257227

Posted: **Fri Jul 28, 2017 5:40 am**

Augments are quite frankly too powerful to be sped up that much. A competent roboticist can do it fairly quickly, it's not much of an issue. Everyone says "EMP and no meds" is a huge terrible counter but let's be honest: 1, you can use a welder on yourself to heal, it isn't that hard to get and generally in better supply/easier to get than medications, and 2, EMPs are somewhat rare- wizards, the ion gun, chemistry (and that's fairly rare), singularity, traitors/lings of course. Most people don't bring EMPs to fights unless they know they're gonna be fighting the things EMPs counter. Overall the ability to heal yourself with a welder and the ability to spacewalk with no suit is worth the 5-10 minutes depending on robotics competence and definitely doesn't need to be quickened.

edit: And whoever posted about the surgery tools doing all the steps for you, that's hugbox. Quicker, sure, but not for you.

Posted: **Fri Jul 28, 2017 7:28 pm**

Gun Hog wrote:
John_Oxford wrote:Add autodocs to the game that if you stand on a tile next to them it will heal 0.5 of every damage type every 2 seconds

Add advanced autodocs that when fed augments, allow a doctor to select which augments it should apply to the person, every augment takes 15 seconds to completely implant. Patient cannot move while its being augmented (instead of it just being a tile to stand on, it would be a fancy chair, like a dentists chair, or the one in the crackhead augment dudes basement in human revolution where he fucks your augs up)

Emagging a autodoc makes it deal 0.5 damage of all types every 0.5 seconds, and have a 1% chance to change to healing 3 damage of every type every second.

Emagging a advanced autodoc without anyone in it causes the machine to fail at surgerys rapidly, when implanting.

If it's emagged while someone is in it, it delimbs the person in a neat pile, stacking their legs, arms, head, and torso in a pile next to it. It also has a 1% chance to just gib them

Fully upgrading a autodoc makes it heal 1 damage of every type every three seconds and inject you with half a unit of stimulant and cryoaxadone (for shower combos) every second

Fully upgrading a advanced autodoc makes it accept syndicate augments, complete augment surgerys in 5 seconds, and gives it a 100% chance to complete the surgery with no errors
Do not DARE ignore my previous post and pretend this is YOUR idea!!! https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic ... 27#p257227

as the leading authority on ideas that never get merged, i couldn't bring myself to read through the 40 pages of good ideas being ignored in that thread

see even gunhog though of it must be a good idea

Posted: **Fri Jul 28, 2017 7:28 pm**

Gun Hog wrote:
John_Oxford wrote:Add autodocs to the game that if you stand on a tile next to them it will heal 0.5 of every damage type every 2 seconds

Add advanced autodocs that when fed augments, allow a doctor to select which augments it should apply to the person, every augment takes 15 seconds to completely implant. Patient cannot move while its being augmented (instead of it just being a tile to stand on, it would be a fancy chair, like a dentists chair, or the one in the crackhead augment dudes basement in human revolution where he fucks your augs up)

Emagging a autodoc makes it deal 0.5 damage of all types every 0.5 seconds, and have a 1% chance to change to healing 3 damage of every type every second.

Emagging a advanced autodoc without anyone in it causes the machine to fail at surgerys rapidly, when implanting.

If it's emagged while someone is in it, it delimbs the person in a neat pile, stacking their legs, arms, head, and torso in a pile next to it. It also has a 1% chance to just gib them

Fully upgrading a autodoc makes it heal 1 damage of every type every three seconds and inject you with half a unit of stimulant and cryoaxadone (for shower combos) every second

Fully upgrading a advanced autodoc makes it accept syndicate augments, complete augment surgerys in 5 seconds, and gives it a 100% chance to complete the surgery with no errors
Do not DARE ignore my previous post and pretend this is YOUR idea!!! https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic ... 27#p257227

as the leading authority on ideas that never get merged, i couldn't bring myself to read through the 40 pages of good ideas being ignored in that thread

see even gunhog though of it must be a good idea

Posted: **Fri Jul 28, 2017 8:44 pm**

Literally having tools with multiple functions (both retract & clamp bleeders) in a simple fashion as well as lets say a high power laser scalpel that works like a saw also so practically you would only ever need 2 tools and the cautery present would make things faster without actually omitting any surgery steps.

Fast tools won't cut it, and science & medical should open their mineral reserves to get good tools, in a similar approach to what we have in the jaws of life/hand drill.

Posted: **Sun Jul 30, 2017 11:20 am**

Upgradeable surgical tools would be cool and fix a lot of problems, and it's easy enough to add them to the R&D listing and the Protolathe and/or Robotics Fabricator menu. (I presume)

Laser and/or diamond scalpel? Diamond saw? Robotic hemostat/other thingy?

Posted: **Sun Jul 30, 2017 2:22 pm**

FantasticFwoosh wrote:Fast tools won't cut it, and science & medical should open their mineral reserves to get good tools, in a similar approach to what we have in the jaws of life/hand drill.

Fast tools don't make good tools unless they are effective, look at the diamond pickaxe for example.

Posted: **Sun Jul 30, 2017 5:12 pm**

Professor Hangar wrote:Upgradeable surgical tools would be cool and fix a lot of problems, and it's easy enough to add them to the R&D listing and the Protolathe and/or Robotics Fabricator menu. (I presume)

Laser and/or diamond scalpel? Diamond saw? Robotic hemostat/other thingy?

There are faster surgery tools that can be replicated in R&D if a miner brings back Abductor tools from a crashed saucer. You only need to decon two (or one if you get lucky with the E.X.P.E.R.I.-MENTOR) of them to be able to produce them all.

Also, this PR is adding faster surgery tools as a surgical implant. So, if you get upgraded with the surgical tools implant, you can do surgeries faster and you will always have your set with you!

Posted: **Sun Jul 30, 2017 5:16 pm**

Yes but nobody uses them because the speed of the surgery isn't the issue, its the selection of tools between steps since even if you were to do all the steps in instantaneous time you are still going slowly by selecting the right tool in the ordered pattern which requires you to have your tools neatly stacked in one place and then returned. Some people who aren't familiar with surgery also spend a lot of time hitting people by accident or looking periodically at the operating console.

I just throw all my tools into a pile and alt click to get the floortile and do it that way so i have a list of my tools availible, its probably the only upgrade a arm-toolkit can bring in the means of disposable tools.

Posted: **Sun Jul 30, 2017 6:06 pm**

FantasticFwoosh wrote:Yes but nobody uses them because the speed of the surgery isn't the issue, its the selection of tools between steps since even if you were to do all the steps in instantaneous time you are still going slowly by selecting the right tool in the ordered pattern which requires you to have your tools neatly stacked in one place and then returned. Some people who aren't familiar with surgery also spend a lot of time hitting people by accident or looking periodically at the operating console.

I just throw all my tools into a pile and alt click to get the floortile and do it that way so i have a list of my tools availible, its probably the only upgrade a arm-toolkit can bring in the means of disposable tools.

There is no need to simplify the surgeries. If you do that, then you have to add some sort of risk (Such as the AutoDoc, which is slow, puts you to sleep, has a potential to mess up if not upgraded, and kills you quickly if EMP'ed or emagged).

Posted: **Sun Jul 30, 2017 8:11 pm**

Autodocs are a ideaguy meme, because naturally it'll end up branching out to unintended self surgery machines and completely de-humanise & rob the medical doctors of any opportunity to do surgery at all by a reluctance to do it manually because its 'too slow' or 'too hard' to our naturally emerging meta concious players. While faster tools add absolutely nothing of value because of server lag limitations besides from doctors not knowing how to apply & change their tools fast.

fast tools, slow players makes absolutely no change in the pace, faster & better tools are a illusion of choice to naturally float towards using and the old/original/ghetto set of tools should not be made redundant

Quite literally making the tools more complex as per the correct stage of the procedure is a simplification that doesn't infringe on manual surgical practice or code. A dual hemostat & retractor for instance much like how the "Jaws of life" for the engineer operates as a lever & a wirecutter when presented with tool steps, only acting in the capacity that there is a 'correct' tool usage out of 2 options.

Exactly the same problem & solution is presented in engineering which is a specific tool heavy job, the CE has the unique advanced tools and it would not be a crime to give slightly underpowered same variants (ideally hemostat/retractor & scalpel/saw) to the CMO.

/tg/Station 13

Speed up augment surgery!

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