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The new clockwork - "revamp"

PostPosted: Sun Aug 06, 2017 3:44 pm
by FantasticFwoosh
Warning may contain trace salt, if you have criticism allergies please avoid.

Laying out some simple facts

> If you are not a engineer main, you have even less to do on the station leading to a lot of fresh converts blankly staring into space not contributing because building takes forever and few people know how to actually clockcult as it is.

> The choke point chokes the game when clock gets their shit together to abuse how fast a welder can cut a wall versus how fast it takes to repair it making it impossible to progress if cultists build 1 wall around the anticipated chokepoint, spam AOE spells when the girders appear and give LOS to the attackers then repair the wall instantly.

Re: The new clockwork - "revamp"

PostPosted: Sun Aug 06, 2017 4:06 pm
by InsaneHyena
Oh no, how can you possibly break through a fortified position? If only there was some kind of a... Tool for destroying massive amounts of tiles.

Re: The new clockwork - "revamp"

PostPosted: Sun Aug 06, 2017 4:19 pm
by FantasticFwoosh
Well considering the limited timeframe and you'd run out of charges without over-prepping more RCD ammo at exactly 6 walls divided by average player unrobustness, it still doesn't check out.

that and tower defence nerds are salivating over this shit with annoying patterns.


RE: Joan won't have to grudgecode anything because clockcult after finding their feet have been very successful, but does this relay over to = balance?

Re: The new clockwork - "revamp"

PostPosted: Sun Aug 06, 2017 4:37 pm
by Xhuis
I'm doing some stuff as we speak to change how it's playing, currently; the spawn room is being enlarged by roughly 6 times its current size (one 5x5 room is turning into three 7x7 rooms), and the Ark will require ten minutes instead of five.

As for servants being unable to help without knowing how to build, building as a servant is both simple and quick. It takes little skill to learn and master, and if you can't decide on a base layout, then chances are that you can plan with your teammates and get something decided on. Because both construction materials and components are fairly available, the only limit is your imagination. If building is absolutely something you don't want to do, then the Reebe z-level will provide you with the tools to contribute in other meaningful ways, such as sabotaging the station or creating new converts.

Re: The new clockwork - "revamp"

PostPosted: Sun Aug 06, 2017 4:48 pm
by D&B
Don't worry, this will probably die during mid development

Re: The new clockwork - "revamp"

PostPosted: Sun Aug 06, 2017 6:22 pm
by Cobby
The area really should have some randomly generated walls already in so it doesn't look like such an empty place.

Re: The new clockwork - "revamp"

PostPosted: Sun Aug 06, 2017 8:38 pm
by CPTANT
I don't think the meta for this will settle in a good place.

I think it is going the exist of bomb spam.

Or thermite spam or blackpowder spam.

Re: The new clockwork - "revamp"

PostPosted: Sun Aug 06, 2017 9:03 pm
by Armhulen
Image

Re: The new clockwork - "revamp"

PostPosted: Sun Aug 06, 2017 10:24 pm
by Deitus
the ship idea is really cool in theory but in practice its all but a win condition in of itself for cult since its a massive, easily-defensible maze (that comes with wardens? not sure on this one) against a crew that a) might not even go into the portals in the first place and b)is often woefully underequipped even if they outnumber the culties.

as it stands now im personally leaning pretty heavily towards just repealing this and leaving it as it was.

Re: The new clockwork - "revamp"

PostPosted: Sun Aug 06, 2017 10:25 pm
by Armhulen
it would be so much better if the cult doesn't go onstation i keep saying it because it's TRUE

Re: The new clockwork - "revamp"

PostPosted: Sun Aug 06, 2017 10:54 pm
by ShadowDimentio
Armhulen wrote:it would be so much better if the cult doesn't go onstation i keep saying it because it's TRUE


Newclock is shit just because the clockcucks can leave the ark and start their own base on the station

Re: The new clockwork - "revamp"

PostPosted: Sun Aug 06, 2017 10:57 pm
by DemonFiren
newcult was shit
newcuck is shit
who is surprised

Re: The new clockwork - "revamp"

PostPosted: Sun Aug 06, 2017 11:13 pm
by onleavedontatme
demonfiren is giving feedback on a mode first testmerged last night
demonfiren last connected three weeks ago
who is surprised

Re: The new clockwork - "revamp"

PostPosted: Sun Aug 06, 2017 11:15 pm
by ShadowDimentio
Like it's enormously retarded to let the clocks go to the station. Think about it, command can either distribute all access and guns or not.

If they do, the crew is strong but if ONE cultist gets access or a gun, suddenly everything starts falling apart as they start shooting people dead and looting all the guns and metals and sabotaging shit left and right.

If they don't, the crew doesn't get shit to use against the clockcucks except what they can scrape together themselves like spears.

Either way the crew gets shafted. It's fucking stupid.

Re: The new clockwork - "revamp"

PostPosted: Sun Aug 06, 2017 11:16 pm
by Qbopper
I feel the assault would be better if

-there are 4 "spawns" located N/S/E/W of the objective
-crewmembers are teleported randomly to each one

that way the cult has to build defenses for each direction instead of it just being d-day [whatever fucking year this game happens in]

I didn't see much of the pre assault stuff, though, so I won't comment on cultists going to the station

EDIT: forgot to add - I love the concept of building the base up off station and it makes me not want to commit suicide irl if I get converted, so I hope that it doesn't get kneejerked out right away and xhius gets a chance to fix it up

EDIT 2: also add more warnings re: time left please

Re: The new clockwork - "revamp"

PostPosted: Sun Aug 06, 2017 11:21 pm
by onleavedontatme
There should be a series of (indestructible?) walls/empty rooms prebuilt and a big no mans land outside them, and the crew spawns in that no mans land/chooses where to enter the walls (and no building in the no mans land, keep the cultists inside with forcefields during setup

Bags of holding probably shouldnt work

Walls need to be in limited supply so they cant wall the entire base up

Not sure about the cultists on station half of things yet

Re: The new clockwork - "revamp"

PostPosted: Sun Aug 06, 2017 11:24 pm
by DemonFiren
Kor wrote:demonfiren is giving feedback on a mode first testmerged last night
demonfiren last connected three weeks ago
who is surprised

ligga i'm stating the obvious

Re: The new clockwork - "revamp"

PostPosted: Sun Aug 06, 2017 11:52 pm
by Armhulen
DemonFiren wrote:
Kor wrote:demonfiren is giving feedback on a mode first testmerged last night
demonfiren last connected three weeks ago
who is surprised

ligga i'm stating the obvious

shut up retard

Re: The new clockwork - "revamp"

PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 12:46 am
by Dr_bee
ShadowDimentio wrote:Like it's enormously retarded to let the clocks go to the station. Think about it, command can either distribute all access and guns or not.

If they do, the crew is strong but if ONE cultist gets access or a gun, suddenly everything starts falling apart as they start shooting people dead and looting all the guns and metals and sabotaging shit left and right.

If they don't, the crew doesn't get shit to use against the clockcucks except what they can scrape together themselves like spears.

Either way the crew gets shafted. It's fucking stupid.


That is the point of letting them on the station.

If there was no risk to handing out all access and guns then clock cult rounds would all go the same way, science rushes bombs and everyone is in armor and riot shotguns and the cult cant do anything armed with spears.

Re: The new clockwork - "revamp"

PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 12:51 am
by Dr_bee
Kor wrote:There should be a series of (indestructible?) walls/empty rooms prebuilt and a big no mans land outside them, and the crew spawns in that no mans land/chooses where to enter the walls (and no building in the no mans land, keep the cultists inside with forcefields during setup

Bags of holding probably shouldnt work

Walls need to be in limited supply so they cant wall the entire base up

Not sure about the cultists on station half of things yet


Was there not plans to make a wall type that was easy to bread down manually but would block all explosions? I think that block is kind of required for the mode to work with toxins being a thing.

I agree about the bags of holding, singulos are lame, and remove the whole point of having people fight to the core.

on the subject of wall spam, would it be possible to require a path to the core room? make it like tower defense, the Ark HAS to have a path to it from the outgoing portal, that way they cant just spam walls.

Re: The new clockwork - "revamp"

PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 12:55 am
by Armhulen
make it so a clear path to the ark needs to exist, sanctuary style

Re: The new clockwork - "revamp"

PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 2:14 am
by oranges
DemonFiren wrote:
Kor wrote:demonfiren is giving feedback on a mode first testmerged last night
demonfiren last connected three weeks ago
who is surprised

ligga i'm stating the obvious

time for MSO to add that rarely plays auto tag like he always threatened

Re: The new clockwork - "revamp"

PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 3:03 am
by danno
>dumb liggerposter posting things of no value to anyone

what a shock

Re: The new clockwork - "revamp"

PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 3:17 am
by Qbmax32
i personally enjoy newcult so far, it's a good change of pace and a lot of the fat has definitely been cut down within the slab, that being said, the cult just feels too powerful. being able to make a maze of mania motors, wardens and walls. like qbop suggested, making a randomized spawn point for the crew so you don't ACTUALLY know where they're gonna come from with the Ark centered in the middle of Reebe would probably be a good change. in addition, I think the amount of components cultists get is WAY to high. and it allows them to spam shit out, snowballing hard. reducing the number of caches that they start with would probably be a good idea too

Re: The new clockwork - "revamp"

PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 1:56 pm
by Rustledjimm
If this is how things are going to continue to be done I would say one issue is as people slowly come through the portals there is an insane amount of friendlyfire as people just assume anyone else already there is a cultist or you assume someone is a friendly but they turn out to be a cultist once you find they've fired several lasers into you.

I would suggest that while the countdown is active all cult members on the Ark are forced to wear cult armour.

Re: The new clockwork - "revamp"

PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2017 9:33 pm
by Hulkamania
I honestly enjoy the direction the cult is going, people are just too harsh to criticize something that was being tested for these exact reasons.

That being said, I have an issue that reebe is this impregnable base that it is until the countdown starts. There's nothing stopping them from making unlimited preparations, it doesn't give the cult a sense of urgency in any way. I'm not sure what would best benefit this, but as it stands now there's no reason for the cult NOT to have a perfectly constructed base by the time the countdown begins. Maybe if they had to hunt for materials from the station? Maybe they can only generate components with a tinkerers cache on the station, it would give some counterplay to the crew while they're still in the setup stage and provide interesting decision making instead of "turtle until we have enough components to make a death maze"

Re: The new clockwork - "revamp"

PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2017 10:32 pm
by oranges
Crew should hand out sec huds and loyalty implant everyone before they go into the cult base, it's like we give them all the tools they need to cooperate but then they just want them feed to them on a platter.

Re: The new clockwork - "revamp"

PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2017 7:23 am
by Dr_bee
oranges wrote:Crew should hand out sec huds and loyalty implant everyone before they go into the cult base, it's like we give them all the tools they need to cooperate but then they just want them feed to them on a platter.


Loyalty implants are sadly not reliable with the holy water deconversion mechanic, you can loyalty implant someone and they can still technically be cult.

the only way to make that strategy viable would be to remove the holy water requirement from deconversion, or, more simply, give the cult a damn uniform.

Re: The new clockwork - "revamp"

PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2017 7:40 am
by oranges
it's for a makeshift team indicator on the sec hud bro, nothing to do with deconversion

Re: The new clockwork - "revamp"

PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2017 4:53 pm
by Xhuis
The tools are already in place for the crew to at least mostly recognize who is on their side. Servants can't enter the spawn rooms; walking through the stationside portals places them back at the spawn points for servants and not crew. This makes distinguishing servants during the initial assault all but impossible to fail, with further red flags being armor, spears, marauders, and not being melted by ocular wardens (which are receiving some range buffs and heavy damage nerfs based on dense objects in the next patch.)

Re: The new clockwork - "revamp"

PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 2:07 am
by Xhuis
There's been a ton of changes since my last post here. so I'd like some more feedback coming in! Right now, the things I'm aware of are mechs and the Geis cursor both being bad to either use or deal with, but any other feedback is appreciated.

Re: The new clockwork - "revamp"

PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 2:54 am
by Cobby
When people don't build mechs and die, it's the fault of the crew for not working together and not cult being too strong.

When people use mechs and win, it's the fault of the mech instead of the cult not working together to assault the mech or converting the roboticist.

Why?

Re: The new clockwork - "revamp"

PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 4:17 am
by Xhuis
ExcessiveCobblestone wrote:When people don't build mechs and die, it's the fault of the crew for not working together and not cult being too strong.

When people use mechs and win, it's the fault of the mech instead of the cult not working together to assault the mech or converting the roboticist.

Why?

I never claimed either. I think that mechs right now can be stopped by the servants using cooperation and strategy, assuming there aren't more than, say, two Durands. The servants certainly have the potential to assault or sabotage Robotics, and should do so if mechs start being created.

I do think that the cult is currently too strong, but it seems as though there's a massive power gap between a cult with good, competent members, and a cult with new members that can't even tie their own neon-green sneakers. If I can, I want to equalize this power-gap; right now the main struggle comes from Script scripture being essential to winning and conversion mechanics being too clunky and ever-changing to ensure that that can happen easily.

I've been brainstorming solutions to this. My ideal change is to simply make conversion much simpler, along the lines of bloodcult who can easily do something about it. The thing I'm tossing around right now is a scripture called Kindle; it serves as a medium-range single-target stun (say a 3-tile radius.) Because that's obviously incredibly strong, I'm planning on making it either rapidly heal damage the target has, or make any damage they take massively reduce or even remove the stun. This would make it more intuitive as a way to capture converts, while still not being incredibly overpowered due to its niche role in capturing someone without harming them at all. This Kindle scripture would replace Geis; restraints would be acquired from external sources, and the silence would be built in as part of Kindle (although the stun would vastly outlast the silence.)

Thoughts on this?

Re: The new clockwork - "revamp"

PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 11:27 am
by Dr_bee
Xhuis wrote:
I've been brainstorming solutions to this. My ideal change is to simply make conversion much simpler, along the lines of bloodcult who can easily do something about it. The thing I'm tossing around right now is a scripture called Kindle; it serves as a medium-range single-target stun (say a 3-tile radius.) Because that's obviously incredibly strong, I'm planning on making it either rapidly heal damage the target has, or make any damage they take massively reduce or even remove the stun. This would make it more intuitive as a way to capture converts, while still not being incredibly overpowered due to its niche role in capturing someone without harming them at all. This Kindle scripture would replace Geis; restraints would be acquired from external sources, and the silence would be built in as part of Kindle (although the stun would vastly outlast the silence.)

Thoughts on this?


Clock cult already has a large amount of ways to regain health with spears giving vitality and soon wardens generating it as well, so a stun with a heal would probably also be used as a ghetto heal by cultists, unless it cant be used on cultists.

I suggest doing a kind of stasis spell, cant be damage but cant move on your own or speak. It would fit rather well with the clock cult style, clockwork being about timing and all, so removing someone from the rhythm of the universe for a time to move them would be better than a silly ring.

Probably should make the effect as obvious as the ring, maybe use the ring plus color the target bronze for flashiness.

Re: The new clockwork - "revamp"

PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 5:03 pm
by D&B
On click undodgeable stuns are cancer.

Are you gonna make it a projectile or something?

Re: The new clockwork - "revamp"

PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 5:51 pm
by Xhuis
If I went that route, it would likely be a projectile and not hitscan. It would have a very short range, of course.

[Deleted]

PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 5:51 pm
by Xhuis
PostThis post was deleted by PKPenguin321 on Sun Aug 13, 2017 7:48 pm.
Reason: Doublepost

Re: The new clockwork - "revamp"

PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 10:14 pm
by Cobby
What's specifically the gripe with geis?

Re: The new clockwork - "revamp"

PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 12:47 am
by Luke Cox
Considerably better than old clockcult. The abductor-like play is very interesting. Keep at it, this has tremendous potential.

Re: The new clockwork - "revamp"

PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 12:52 am
by Xhuis
Geis is very clunky to use, and its mechanics are confusing. It tries to fill the niche that a stun talisman does, but doesn't succeed for a few reasons:
  1. It's tied to the slab and not a paper, so losing it is the same as losing an arcane tome and not a disposable talisman
  2. It lacks the utility because no actions can be taken while Geis is maintained, meaning that hiding sigils and the like behind false walls is impossible
  3. It becomes less effective as time goes on in that it takes more time to invoke, whereas stunpapers are always readily-available
  4. Its mechanics - making it a structure that's buckled to and not normal restraints - are fine for the crew, but are in practice not understood well by servants; the basic "stun and capture" scripture shouldn't warrant as much explanation as it requires

Kindle solves that; because it's slightly above melee range, it protects the slab. It also allows more utility, remains consistently effective, and doesn't introduce any convoluted mechanics to make it work. The implementation that I've decided to make right now loses 2 deciseconds of stun time per point of damage the stunned target takes; this also makes it less powerful in situations where attacking and base defense are involved, but still makes it effective for conversions.

Re: The new clockwork - "revamp"

PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 1:13 am
by Armhulen
Remove conversion in this gamemode! Let the clock cultists decide on 'heralding' which extends the time until the rift opens and gives way more starting resources but announces it to the crew.

Re: The new clockwork - "revamp"

PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 7:42 am
by Dr_bee
Armhulen wrote:Remove conversion in this gamemode! Let the clock cultists decide on 'heralding' which extends the time until the rift opens and gives way more starting resources but announces it to the crew.


Conversion is good, it leads to a certain amount of paranoia that isnt present in the similar mode (nuclear emergency)

That heralding hardmode idea would be neat as an optional mode, similar to warops. the crew gets alerted at roundstart, and conversion is turned off, but the cult gets access to things they wouldnt normally get.

Re: The new clockwork - "revamp"

PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 9:48 pm
by Cobby
Dr_bee wrote:
Armhulen wrote:Remove conversion in this gamemode! Let the clock cultists decide on 'heralding' which extends the time until the rift opens and gives way more starting resources but announces it to the crew.


Conversion is good, it leads to a certain amount of paranoia that isnt present in the similar mode (nuclear emergency)

That heralding hardmode idea would be neat as an optional mode, similar to warops. the crew gets alerted at roundstart, and conversion is turned off, but the cult gets access to things they wouldnt normally get.


Conversion should still be in heraldry so now to get the oculars you gotta WORK

Re: The new clockwork - "revamp"

PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 10:58 pm
by Armhulen
ExcessiveCobblestone wrote:
Dr_bee wrote:
Armhulen wrote:Remove conversion in this gamemode! Let the clock cultists decide on 'heralding' which extends the time until the rift opens and gives way more starting resources but announces it to the crew.


Conversion is good, it leads to a certain amount of paranoia that isnt present in the similar mode (nuclear emergency)

That heralding hardmode idea would be neat as an optional mode, similar to warops. the crew gets alerted at roundstart, and conversion is turned off, but the cult gets access to things they wouldnt normally get.


Conversion should still be in heraldry so now to get the oculars you gotta WORK

it shouldn't even be in the normal one, stop deluding them! There's no paranoia to self antag buttons and we don't need paranoia in every single gamemode, sling will do that just fine

Re: The new clockwork - "revamp"

PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 11:47 am
by Remie Richards
sling isn't happening tho.

Re: The new clockwork - "revamp"

PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 7:11 pm
by Armhulen
Remie Richards wrote:sling isn't happening tho.

I know! if i post in every reply mentioning shadowlings that it won't go through in the most vague terms possible, that'll show him!

sorry mam but the code's written and the pr's ready after either the spacepods or the changeling rework.

Re: The new clockwork - "revamp"

PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 7:12 pm
by Armhulen
and, in case you haven't noticed but clockwork cult's losing conversion for more tower defense which means kor would let that go through.

Re: The new clockwork - "revamp"

PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 10:07 pm
by onleavedontatme
Armhulen wrote:
Remie Richards wrote:sling isn't happening tho.

I know! if i post in every reply mentioning shadowlings that it won't go through in the most vague terms possible, that'll show him!

sorry mam but the code's written and the pr's ready after either the spacepods or the changeling rework.


"It isn't happening" is not vague lmao

Re: The new clockwork - "revamp"

PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 10:12 pm
by Qbopper
still a bit obnoxious though

Re: The new clockwork - "revamp"

PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 10:16 pm
by onleavedontatme
Actually, politely and concisely informing people that a project wont be accepted before they waste time coding it and opening a big PR is the opposite of obnoxious