/tg/Station 13

Nice to dip back into seeing dwarves on a test merge recently, but i have some critical feedback

• The map for the dwarves being raw stone is still lackluster, even if all the walls were sheet metal rods (5 rods on a wall) surrounding the ruin to encourage dwarves to not break it, it'd be fine. Big castle or small fortress as long as its enclosed with defined areas and dwarves can add onto it would be a improvement over raw rock that dwarves dig into, this was formerly a problem with goof's dwarves also digging into walls recklessly. And unintentionally the map editor spores ores into rock encouraging this further

• Since i and bman went to the effort to sprite maybe im shooting myself in the foot in saying that it doesn't look good, many of the assets especially in the ores are lackluster (i did my best with weapons but if anybody wants to step in be my guest) and admantine is not properly represented in this PR compared to the sprites that already exist (red jelly is a false generic ore sprite, adamantine actually has a shard like sprite similar to titanium.)

• Adamantine doesn't feel rare, i have seperate ideas on it but i've heard reported that it doesn't give the ore properly when dug into releasing the faithless, other ore woes is that clay doesn't have a oretype, currently im hoping to emulate D20' stations attempt of making clay (seriously check it out) by making it a component of bricks etc as well as a raw crafting material which could probably be done in the orm for cheap building material and less clutter.

• Disgust & miasma effect is too strong and will overlap stun-locking dwarves into endlessly vomiting sometimes adding to the effect, scale it back would be nice.

• The brewing stands are TOO goddamn unbalanced, and dont distribute chemicals properly spit out seeds and often end up killing dwarves by bleeding reagents into the ale or vice versa are too strong and heal them to full but only certain plants even have alcoholic content, goof has defended them multiple times but its so annoying i think it should be scrapped in favour of making a entirely seperate brewery chart, and find a way to extend the process of making drinks, but goof wont do it because its exerts effort. Doing the following would also add value and uniqueness to the brews dwarves create that are risky but possibly worthwhile to emulate and assimilate into the existing list of bartender drinks.

• Finally a topic of chemical reagent weapons/armor can be solved by making appropriate assets, there's always room for creativity but initially having both artistically competent and playable tools will go further than half broken shit in which 60% wont even do anything and 2/4 of the remaining will be overpowered or broken.

- Ranting vent over. Im stepping on toes no doubt and probably blurred the lines with some of my own ideas and opinions but what else have people thought about the recent test merge.

I'm not removing brewing and compromising my design vision. Fuck off with that.

Seriously, it's already locked to needing to be a dwarf to use it. I repeat, fuck off about it.

To repeat a third time, I'm not removing the modular unique brewing that supports every plant in the game and allows for custom ales to replace it with fucking reskinned bartender drinks.

Restrict it then to certain plants because for the most half the brewing system is useless for its purpose besides harvesting shit-tons of seeds more than the most advanced electrical devices. Its a waste of time to process it through mostly because at a glance you can only determine the resulting drink by its name. Dwarf only fine but what deserves dwarves to have no handicaps? People argue they grow too fast and decrease the capital resources of the station where they are present because often the minerals are just smelted.

You forgot to tell me to fuck off the third time.

iamgoofball wrote:I'm not removing brewing and compromising my design vision. Fuck off with that.

Coding feedback, its half playable because absolutely new players have 0 direction without having older players who played the prior shouting at them what to do, this is not the best premise for a ghost role, which often runs of familiar presentable objects. Even botany on the station has a small sheet of paper guiding them through the most basic functions.

• Insane vomit spirals from super sensitive miasma = stunlock, impossible to clean
• Most of your custom features don't do anything as previously pointed out
• Everyone is going to stick their nose in as soon as its finished and your power over the project only lasts as long as you're developing it, that is plain fact, if you try to kill it a dead-man's hand is in place to revive it straight away because of the immense popularity of it.

• Lacking that you care about the above before you post a gonorrhea anus to my private mail in a literal shitfit or on the PR again, add more transparency via tooltips/better side descriptions on the functions of dwarf centric objects so they can just do it themselves without staring at and ghosting out after 15 minutes or having to ask is probably the most moderate opinionated suggestion i have to offer, least be able to see the brew on examine that is going to be served up next
• If only dwarves can see these tooltips then i guess its working as intended.

On the topic of bartender drinks i honestly just think you're too unimaginative to even come up with some appropriate drinks to try exploring it, we already expanded the station side system for a wider variety of drinks to have features outside of just occasional dizzyness. You clearly show no interest in doing that so i guess its not worth worrying about. For dwarves that can drink a virtually infinite amount of alcohol as a 'gimmick', you'd think it'd be important.

Run a counter production of plump helmet only brewing cisterns, fine. But its the only way dwarves are going to get the alcoholic kick they need because you lack the motivation to assign alcohol to other ales or even a baseline alcoholic content because you'd rather dick around with pseudo drinks which heal you to full or fill you with so much amatoxin they kill you dead after one serving. IC issue yadda yadda...

Coders should not and have not to coddle to players that don't click the wiki button to understand what they're doing.

I STAND WITH GOOFBALL!

D&B wrote:Coders should not and have not to coddle to players that don't click the wiki button to understand what they're doing.

There's already non-obstructive tool tips on girders denoting the current action that needs to be taken, its not that hard a thing to grasp a similar system being employed because the way dwarves make tools/resources is methodical.

Dwarves are so in-dev too, that the wiki is a waste of time and is only of use when the dust has settled and dwarves are finalised. Other things like how to actually prepare leather are such fundamental game things (outside of dwarves) that they wouldn't be applicable to the wiki rather than a offhand reference.

I still maintain that the necropolis should be the hell equivalent, and the current unbreakable wall tiles are essentially slade, and you could have rare spawning veins of adamantite that run through it that only dorfs can mine.

Bonus points if the dorfs can't tell how deep the adamantite vein runs, so they don't know when their greed will actually break a hole into the FUN.

Daily reminder fwoosh is retarded

Like seriously this guy made booze from poison mushrooms then whined about dying from drinking it

iamgoofball wrote:Daily reminder fwoosh is retarded

Goof is correct.

I have a few minor issues with it.

First of all adamantite at the moment I think should be much rarer.

Gold should not make good weapons. Gold is shit for weapons. Stop ruining my immersion.

There should be a way of building a "roof" over open tiles for the dwarves in lavaland. I notice often places inside a dwarf fort still gets affected by lavaland storms while random tiles outside the fort but in the area mined don't get affected. It'd be nice if dwarves could place a roof or something so an area doesn't get affected without having to build an entire metal wall around it.


However the entire concept I absolutely love and I hope it can be further developed.

Rustledjimm wrote:There should be a way of building a "roof" over open tiles for the dwarves in lavaland. I notice often places inside a dwarf fort still gets affected by lavaland storms while random tiles outside the fort but in the area mined don't get affected. It'd be nice if dwarves could place a roof or something so an area doesn't get affected without having to build an entire metal wall around it.

I did have stone smoothening & engravings sprites ready so you could chisel out rock into sealable walls & therefore create 'corridors' to keep out the weather out of long rooms including making new rooms easily out of just dug out spaces without metal walls. (via a chisel object loot) Goof ignored me despite it being all ready to go.

Rustledjimm wrote: First of all adamantite at the moment I think should be much rarer.

Let me just redirect you here, because there will be rounds without dwarves, in which we must ask ourselves why does adamantine still spawn into the round without dwarves, and is there anything we can do to either block it off from spawning or spawn it later under set conditions.

iamgoofball wrote:Like seriously this guy made booze from poison mushrooms then whined about dying from drinking it

I win the Darwin Award for that, but it killed from memory like 5 other people as it was brewed with everything else without knowing about your botched system, under the assumption it would fix the fact that dwarves couldn't get drunk at the time in a consistent and satisfactory manner to just make alcohol because dwarves were new. Tell me how making people fat/dead/overdosed was meant to be intentional and why you didn't mention it.

If dwarves were capable of breathing, most dwarven brews of lavaland plants would also cause them to suffocate to death from a intense nicotine overdose found in some cultivatable mushroom types, its not terribly hard and the most insulting thing is that experimenting with new plants returns virtually no alcohol.

iamgoofball wrote:To repeat a third time, I'm not removing the modular unique brewing that supports every plant in the game.

It doesn't. It barely works & basically copies the plant's unique reagents into the ale in usually excessive quantities and calls it a unique goof feature when you could have put it through a blender for the same thing, bartender drinks are straightforward, satiate the dwarf's alcohol needs & adds depth to the game and also can possess unique properties as a individual reagent (ei druggy, healing, other misc effects)

Put object in a still, bubble bubble it activate's bartender recipe for dispense. Better yet, allowing everything put through a still to be automatically activated with universal reagent (green stuff in the kitchen) for automatically making vodka out of potatoes & wine out of grapes, you dont even have to exert effort.

>fwoosh still posting text walls about shit he doesn't understand

iamgoofball wrote:>fwoosh still posting text walls about shit he doesn't understand

>goofball still shitposting outside of the hut

Besides from your highly questionable design ideas the actual commit is creepcoded with tons of auxillary features (changing the lye recipie, making plasma stacks unable to igite), un-navigatable commits (mostly named "fuck" and "ashahkfheje") and previous PR's 300+ comments long because you decided to ragequit & post goatse halfway through development only to come back and pass it over to shadowlight as a proxxy with no actual meaningful changes outside of fixing current commits.

Unpicking it would require a code freeze, i've already made my thoughts known that if people are serious about it they should start fresh because there's too much baggage on the original commit.

mad-libbing r/t_d posts really doesnt work ever m8

If most plants don't give alcohol when turned into a brew then that should actually be fixed incase one dwarf somehow finds other plants and is a creative lad.

It would be as annoying as a server where you can die from hunger, but most of the food doesn't actually make you less hungry.

Ayy Lemoh wrote:If most plants don't give alcohol when turned into a brew then that should actually be fixed incase one dwarf somehow finds other plants and is a creative lad.

It would be as annoying as a server where you can die from hunger, but most of the food doesn't actually make you less hungry.

Every plant has a minimum booze level for brewing, sitting at 10. The only plants with a booze level lower than this are lemons, limes, and the glowshrooms. A dwarf literally can't die from a lack of alcohol unless all of their crops have been destroyed and their brewery is gone.

Additionally combining plants combines their booze level

iamgoofball wrote:Additionally combining plants combines their booze level

combining plants combines their booze level
combining plants

Why isn't this on the wiki? That would be really fucking nice to know, to be honest.

iamgoofball wrote:Additionally combining plants combines their booze level

But you punish us so hard by putting reagents of whatever in there too, dwarves just want the alcohol & have a organ to deal with healing & effects providing it works without anything ontop, its the main if not only reason they bother with it besides to just get more seeds since food is arbitary. Instead you're sitting around playing chemistry trying not to kill yourself with bad batches.

If they wanted anything else they'd just chew on it.

is it really that hard for you to just make plump helmet wine

is it really that hard, that we need to sacrifice the ability for botanists to trade with the dwarves, to get booze made of their crazy GMO plants

Ayy Lemoh wrote:

iamgoofball wrote:Additionally combining plants combines their booze level

combining plants combines their booze level
combining plants

Why isn't this on the wiki? That would be really fucking nice to know, to be honest.

is that not on the wiki? you can put any amount of plants into the still and make mixed batches

Such is how we delivered ourselves at poisoning the still. Its not a matter of self control, its a matter of a lack of co-ordination that running multiple dwarves in what essentially is a team exercise brings, any fault of knowledge and the entire fortress collapses over minor errors. (Miasma, bad plants in the alcohol, accidentally luring megafauna/digging adamantine aggressive shaft mining *though that one is obvious*)

Its not really a feature that is needed in the first place, what constitutes a benefit of getting fat/healed off ale additional plant reagents if you are already supposed to heal off the organ which relies on mass combining cruddy plants for lack of plump helmets?

P.s - Nobody traded for the aminata's or explicitly botany plants they just grew from weeds in the trays, its not uncommon for any botanist to just wait around and onpurposefully try and obtain weeds for things like additional towercaps.

so what you're saying is that without cooperation, the game is hard, unpredictable, and minor things can kill the whole fortress after snowballing?

sounds like it's working just fine

The station is a different environment, i would not count the SS13 game itself to be those things as its largely individually driven, and without anything prefixed with 'meta' - gamers, buddies, friends, hombres, urists it makes for hard going indeed for the ghost role which in the end only dedicated players will be able to endure like cockroaches, clinging on after the fallout of a goofcular deep-strike of unnessecary over the top features on what could be ok systems if they weren't so autistically insistent on using everything as a reagent.

You have tools & weapons and metal moulding, it works fine & can be tweaked. Why do we need milk shovels? We can instead focus on raising the quality & balancing of the metal objects which are uniquely presented in the game themselves. Its a end game & concept only viewable to you goof as it's just exploitative else to make things like a synthflesh shovel which is so bizarre.

How much of this stuff do you actually need for the game(given that maintainers have piped up over issues like your reagent tools) compared to how much you want to stay close to the source material. As it makes it less playable and obtuse as a result because they are two different things and LL doesn't belong to your dwarves no matter how you try to insist it does or integrate into the existing game because of your exceptionist cavalier attitude to keep it running parallel entirely remarking ("Fuck RnD & Mining")

FantasticFwoosh wrote:The station is a different environment, i would not count the SS13 game itself to be those things as its largely individually driven, and without anything prefixed with 'meta' - buddies, friends, hombres, urists.

1. why yes, ss13 is a different environment
2. i've re-read this like 5 times now, are you complaining that you need to metabuddy to play dorfs? if so, you're horribly wrong

FantasticFwoosh wrote:it makes for hard going indeed for the ghost role which in the end only dedicated players will be able to endure like cockroaches, clinging on after the fallout of a goofcular deep-strike of unnessecary over the top features on what could be ok systems if they weren't so autistically insistent on using everything as a reagent

1. sentence frag, please contact your english teacher and ask for a re-grade
2. people very clearly enjoy the permadeath super-hard bullshit, and the very modular nature of the dwarf stuff is attractive to players who enjoy forging their own path

FantasticFwoosh wrote:Why do we need milk shovels?

people love their memes and love their random homebrew crap they made themselves

they can point to their milk sword and go "I made that, that is my milk sword, there are many others like it, but this one is mine"

i understand you have no way of getting this concept because of the way your brain works, but sometimes people like stupid shit

FantasticFwoosh wrote:How much of this stuff do you actually need for the game(given that maintainers have piped up over issues like your reagent tools) compared to how much you want to stay close to the source material. As it makes it less playable and obtuse as a result.

seeing as sticking to the source material has worked perfectly so far, I'd argue it's fine