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Mining and Science >>> Security at Security's Job
Posted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 6:03 pm
by Oldman Robustin
This is hardly a new problem but it's one that seems more glaring than ever since I've come back. RND and Mining have streamlined their strategies and the reduced effort means its not only more attractive to use these departments to powergame but it's also happening earlier and earlier.
These departments not only surpass Security in robustness, but they do so in a way that's far more entertaining/fun than "taze + kill/cuff". It's not just the crazy toys that each department gets that makes an INDIVIDUAL more robust than any member of security (Scientist + RND toys/weapons, Miner + Chest/Mega Loot) but they also possess the ability to deploy more sentient (player controlled) combat-oriented soldiers than exist on a full security team. Minebot spam and mineral golems are both new tactics I've seen multiple times in the last few days.
On one hand, wacky crazy shit that often results when ghosts are mass-deployed is part of what makes SS13 unique and entertaining - on the other hand it gets a little silly when "civilian" departments can deploy effective armies often before the shuttle is even fueled.
Leave it alone? Nerf their effectiveness? Make them harder to obtain?
I'm planning to at least remove the ability to carry around golem shells, for starters.
Re: Mining and Science >>> Security at Security's Job
Posted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 7:45 pm
by D&B
Xenobio being able to make golem shells was a mistake.
Re: Mining and Science >>> Security at Security's Job
Posted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 7:45 pm
by XDTM
To be honest, i never realized you could pick shells up, putting them in backpacks is definitely unintended.
D&B they used to make golems before there even were mining golems
Re: Mining and Science >>> Security at Security's Job
Posted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 7:51 pm
by D&B
XDTM wrote:To be honest, i never realized you could pick shells up, putting them in backpacks is definitely unintended.
D&B they used to make golems before there even were mining golems
Yes, and then golems got powercrept to hell and back without taking into account station made golem balance.
In any case, even if it came before, being able to make an army just because of RNG seems like bad design to me.
Re: Mining and Science >>> Security at Security's Job
Posted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 7:52 pm
by BeeSting12
Golems currently have a stupid amount of health, it takes a lot of hits for anything to kill the silver, iron, and adamantium golems.
Re: Mining and Science >>> Security at Security's Job
Posted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 8:25 pm
by InsaneHyena
"Material" golems having any differences beyond cosmetic was a mistake. Giving xenobio golem shells was an even bigger mistake.
Re: Mining and Science >>> Security at Security's Job
Posted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 9:29 pm
by lumipharon
Powercreep is a really horrible cancer in this game.
Mining has way to many power items they can get to let them powergame on station (making them powerful as fuck lavaland only is perfectly fine).
Science (mainly R&D of course) is in a perpetual state of powercreep, literally for as long as I can remember.
Golems, or any other ghost role player creatable shit should NEVER be spammable.
Re: Mining and Science >>> Security at Security's Job
Posted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 11:46 pm
by Oldman Robustin
I might look at scaling back some of the variables for mineral golems if that's the consensus.
I glanced at them earlier and there were a few that really raised eyebrows (60% chance stunhands, deathsquad tier armor, 18 damage melee attacks, etc.).
I don't think they should be impotent in combat, and minebots might be even bigger offenders (repairable, ranged attack, unstunnable), but I don't think they should be unbeatable to anyone who doesn't have a gun either.
Re: Mining and Science >>> Security at Security's Job
Posted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 11:53 pm
by BeeSting12
If you balance the golems so they're not cancer to fight you'll be my hero robustin
Re: Mining and Science >>> Security at Security's Job
Posted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 2:18 am
by kevinz000
i ded
Re: Mining and Science >>> Security at Security's Job
Posted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 2:22 am
by D&B
kevinz000 wrote:i ded
Play ded
Re: Mining and Science >>> Security at Security's Job
Posted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 8:57 am
by XDTM
I think that increasing the effort to obtain golems (5 adamantium bars instead of one) and reducing the base stats a bit would help.
However, the special golems do take 10 sheets of mineral, which amounts to 20000 of the selected material, which isn't that cheap.
Re: Mining and Science >>> Security at Security's Job
Posted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 12:28 am
by Oldman Robustin
Increasing the bar cost was one of my first instincts although 5 seems a bit much.
My biggest concern with that approach is that given the trends of science any "cost increase" would be negated within a year by some other buffs making it even easier to mass-harvest cores.
I could start just by doubling the cost so its 2 bars per shell and seeing where that leaves us, it's certainly easier than trying to adjust 20 different goddamn golem types.
Re: Mining and Science >>> Security at Security's Job
Posted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 1:18 am
by J_Madison
Oldman Robustin wrote:
departments not only surpass Security in robustness
player issue. good sec players go one of three ways;
kiss ass become admin ban other sec players.
get banned.
quit.
Re: Mining and Science >>> Security at Security's Job
Posted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 1:25 am
by oranges
J_Madison wrote:Oldman Robustin wrote:
departments not only surpass Security in robustness
player issue. good sec players go one of three ways;
kiss ass become admin ban other sec players.
get banned.
quit.
true
Re: Mining and Science >>> Security at Security's Job
Posted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 1:45 am
by oranges
That sounds pretty amazing to be honest
Re: Mining and Science >>> Security at Security's Job
Posted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 2:36 am
by Cobby
FUCK I DIDNT THINK OF THAT FUCK
Re: Mining and Science >>> Security at Security's Job
Posted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 4:19 am
by Bawhoppennn
Good idea. Someone get coding.
Re: Mining and Science >>> Security at Security's Job
Posted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 8:55 am
by XDTM
I like it but it would also completely remove any suicide/expendable golem strategy, especially plasma golems
What about a limit of golems for each "owner"? After which either it doesn't work at all, or the golem made is unenslaved
Re: Mining and Science >>> Security at Security's Job
Posted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 2:57 pm
by Bawhoppennn
XDTM wrote:I like it but it would also completely remove any suicide/expendable golem strategy, especially plasma golems
It's not anything worth keeping.
Re: Mining and Science >>> Security at Security's Job
Posted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 3:13 pm
by Cobby
Bawhoppennn wrote:Good idea. Someone get coding.
Remie already did, you just have to soullink the golems to the master
Re: Mining and Science >>> Security at Security's Job
Posted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 3:35 pm
by onleavedontatme
Golems are so weak and slow you could never make them again if their deaths hurt you
Re: Mining and Science >>> Security at Security's Job
Posted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 3:47 pm
by Armhulen
I'd much rather your death hurt them instead of their death hurting you.
Re: Mining and Science >>> Security at Security's Job
Posted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 3:51 pm
by onleavedontatme
Armhulen wrote:I'd much rather your death hurt them instead of their death hurting you.
Re: Mining and Science >>> Security at Security's Job
Posted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 4:01 pm
by D&B
Make them work like blobernauts and they slowly die and crumble if the original invoker dies.
Re: Mining and Science >>> Security at Security's Job
Posted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 11:00 pm
by Qbmax32
Isn't kev coding a tech web thing for RND so powergaming is harder?
Re: Mining and Science >>> Security at Security's Job
Posted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 11:03 pm
by Armhulen
Qbmax32 wrote:Isn't kev coding a tech web thing for RND so powergaming is harder?
easier, but now at least it's fun to do
Re: Mining and Science >>> Security at Security's Job
Posted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 11:08 pm
by DemonFiren
>kev
>doing anything to make powergaming harder
Re: Mining and Science >>> Security at Security's Job
Posted: Sun Sep 10, 2017 4:51 am
by kevinz000
D&B wrote:kevinz000 wrote:i ded
Play ded
fuck
Re: Mining and Science >>> Security at Security's Job
Posted: Sun Sep 10, 2017 4:52 am
by kevinz000
Armhulen wrote:Qbmax32 wrote:Isn't kev coding a tech web thing for RND so powergaming is harder?
easier, but now at least it's fun to do
powergaming will not be any harder because it's designed to make it easier to do (the entire point of techwebs) but
it'll take longer though.
Re: Mining and Science >>> Security at Security's Job
Posted: Sun Sep 10, 2017 6:50 am
by Jembo
God forbid anyone have any amount of power over security even if it takes 15+ minutes and a decent amount of luck. God sec is already handed a weapon to counter nearly everything they'll have to encounter at the start of the round. Golems are weak, flashbang them if you're really that bad of a shot with a taser.
Re: Mining and Science >>> Security at Security's Job
Posted: Sun Sep 10, 2017 8:26 pm
by XDTM
Are we all ignoring the fact that apparently security's job here is to kill valids more than detain criminals?
Re: Mining and Science >>> Security at Security's Job
Posted: Sun Sep 10, 2017 8:28 pm
by BeeSting12
Jembo wrote:God forbid anyone have any amount of power over security even if it takes 15+ minutes and a decent amount of luck. God sec is already handed a weapon to counter nearly everything they'll have to encounter at the start of the round. Golems are weak, flashbang them if you're really that bad of a shot with a taser.
Golems have a lot of health.
Re: Mining and Science >>> Security at Security's Job
Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 7:41 am
by Not-Dorsidarf
Jembo wrote:God forbid anyone have any amount of power over security even if it takes 15+ minutes and a decent amount of luck. God sec is already handed a weapon to counter nearly everything they'll have to encounter at the start of the round. Golems are weak, flashbang them if you're really that bad of a shot with a taser.
>15 minutes is now considered " a lot of effort to create a near-unlimited army of people with stunbaton hands and built-in armour all slaved to a single persons command"
Wew lads
Re: Mining and Science >>> Security at Security's Job
Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 5:35 pm
by Oldman Robustin
The last golems I faced off against were plasteel and they get a 60% stun reduction and basically e-daggers for hands with a built in bonus stun chance.
Think of each one as a mini juggernaut and then account for there being 6-8 of them.
Also accounts for the fact that if their master is in the field or they are part of a larger team, you won't be able to just pick them off one by one.
Re: Mining and Science >>> Security at Security's Job
Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 6:51 pm
by XDTM
You forgot to mention that their stun chance is the same as base golems and that they're really really slow
weren't you the guy making slow but unstunnable zombies?
Re: Mining and Science >>> Security at Security's Job
Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 9:00 pm
by lumipharon
>25tc romerol
>need more than one tator to work together BEFORE spending all their tc's (or rng crate lel)
>have to put it into people that then have to die
>50% of the time they're salty shitters that will try rat you out/beg to get changed back rather then be a zombie
>comparing this to infinite golem spam, tator not required
Re: Mining and Science >>> Security at Security's Job
Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 9:04 pm
by XDTM
my point was that he tried to balance stunproofing with slowness and then criticizes another thing which uses the same mechanic (which is not even stun immunity)
Re: Mining and Science >>> Security at Security's Job
Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 9:11 pm
by lumipharon
But they're not comparable balance wise? Zombies rely on killing and converting the crew, and represent a massive traitor tc investment for something that may or may not work. Where as golems it's just spam as many as physically possible, ghosts permitting, and they're all slaved to your will.
Also zombies can't do anything except run around and attack things, where as golems are stunpunching damage resisting suicide soldiers since their master can just shit more out if they die.
Re: Mining and Science >>> Security at Security's Job
Posted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 12:11 am
by Oldman Robustin
XDTM wrote:my point was that he tried to balance stunproofing with slowness and then criticizes another thing which uses the same mechanic (which is not even stun immunity)
I'm not saying those mechanics are inherently bad, I'm saying that when combined with a spammable ghost-role that unifies the creatures around a singular "master" - it gets ridiculous. I was specifically mentioning stun resistance to the guy who mentioned flashbangs since flashbangs with 60% less stun isn't enough time to do much anything.
Re: Mining and Science >>> Security at Security's Job
Posted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 7:51 am
by Arianya
XDTM wrote:Are we all ignoring the fact that apparently security's job here is to kill valids more than detain criminals?
Without fail security gets mocked in OOC if they missed even one valid salad or spent any amount of time arresting the ~obviously innocent~ greytiders making explosive lances.
Re: Mining and Science >>> Security at Security's Job
Posted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 10:53 am
by oranges
ah but playing as an incompetent sec is a hilarious license to print salt
Re: Mining and Science >>> Security at Security's Job
Posted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 9:45 pm
by Cobby
Arianya wrote:XDTM wrote:Are we all ignoring the fact that apparently security's job here is to kill valids more than detain criminals?
Without fail security gets mocked in OOC if they missed even one valid salad or spent any amount of time arresting the ~obviously innocent~ greytiders making explosive lances.
Try not playing on basil.
Re: Mining and Science >>> Security at Security's Job
Posted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 7:06 pm
by PKPenguin321
Arianya wrote:XDTM wrote:Are we all ignoring the fact that apparently security's job here is to kill valids more than detain criminals?
Without fail security gets mocked in OOC if they missed even one valid salad or spent any amount of time arresting the ~obviously innocent~ greytiders making explosive lances.
Oh no, how awful
Re: Mining and Science >>> Security at Security's Job
Posted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 7:15 pm
by kevinz000
My best response to this thread is lol
Re: Mining and Science >>> Security at Security's Job
Posted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 7:17 pm
by captain sawrge
PKPenguin321 wrote:Arianya wrote:XDTM wrote:Are we all ignoring the fact that apparently security's job here is to kill valids more than detain criminals?
Without fail security gets mocked in OOC if they missed even one valid salad or spent any amount of time arresting the ~obviously innocent~ greytiders making explosive lances.
Oh no, how awful
the last reply to this was a month and a half ago you dumb fuck
Re: Mining and Science >>> Security at Security's Job
Posted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 8:47 pm
by LifeReign
captain sawrge wrote:PKPenguin321 wrote:Arianya wrote:XDTM wrote:Are we all ignoring the fact that apparently security's job here is to kill valids more than detain criminals?
Without fail security gets mocked in OOC if they missed even one valid salad or spent any amount of time arresting the ~obviously innocent~ greytiders making explosive lances.
Oh no, how awful
the last reply to this was a month and a half ago you dumb fuck
Worse, he posted after Halloween ended, so he even missed the timing for necromancy! This is an outrage!
Re: Mining and Science >>> Security at Security's Job
Posted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 12:44 am
by PKPenguin321
captain sawrge wrote:PKPenguin321 wrote:Arianya wrote:XDTM wrote:Are we all ignoring the fact that apparently security's job here is to kill valids more than detain criminals?
Without fail security gets mocked in OOC if they missed even one valid salad or spent any amount of time arresting the ~obviously innocent~ greytiders making explosive lances.
Oh no, how awful
the last reply to this was a month and a half ago you dumb fuck
How terrible oh no
Re: Mining and Science >>> Security at Security's Job
Posted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 1:12 am
by John_Oxford
security gets it's own science department and can create androids and load them with chips to bring ghosts into security roles
Re: Mining and Science >>> Security at Security's Job
Posted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 2:15 am
by Cobby
So gun crafting + terminators