/tg/Station 13

I made a nice thought out post about this issue but it took so long that the forums logged me out and I lost everything.

So I'll simply use this message to jumpstart the conversation here.

In my vast experience on SS13, I feel that traitor has become exceedingly weak and stale as an antagonist due to a multitude of factors. Someone needs to look at giving traitors a bunch of common sense items for low TC (insulated gloves, a more discrete/robust stunprod, a tool that instantly unbolts and temporarily disables AI control on doors without having to mess with wires) and reduce the cost of virtually all non-combat gear to 1-2 telecrystals (voice changer, chameleon jumpsuit, implants, etc.).

I should start fearing traitors again, not just for their ability to murder people in maint.- but for the chaos, paranoia, and intrigue that they can create. I see this in nearly every other game mode now but I find myself dreading traitor/DA rounds on both sides (security and the antag role) simply because they are beginning to feel more and more like extended.

Yes. Traitor need a buff. I agree with your idea of massively decreasing the prices of stealth items like the voice changer, the emag, the thermals, etc.
I want to be able to pull complexes shenanigans as traitor without being forced to make sacrifices because of TC costs.

Well, I agree that traitors should depend less on their job and loot they can get and more on their uplink items.

But fuck "fear", "paranoia" and "spirit of SS13" in case somebody brings that up. How about we start judging impact on the game and, most importantly, players, not some arbitrary terms that don't really mean anything.

Emag and thermals don't need a decrease in cost, Jesus. Voice changer does seem quite expensive for what it does.

May be we should actually increase the amount of TC traitors and nuke ops get and also scale the prices accordingly. It will just give us more ways to balance the price.

I would like to see more variety in traitor options, and a TC reduction across the board. The c4 nerd and price reduction was the best uplink change in a while and I'd love more opportunities for more complex item combos.

Traitor doesn't need an "overhaul", it needs tweaks, which is what the OP's suggestion is.

I agree with the sentiment that utility items should be more appealing than noslipesword for the 10,000th time. However, you look at the camera bug for example. It's both cheap at 2tc and useful. Same with AI detector. I'm not sure if even lowering it to 1 would make it more used. With some items it's more of a problem with the item itself.

Chameleon jumpsuit, for example, should probably just be in the Useless Junk column in its current state. Traitor Stamp is pretty underwhelming even at 1tc. In the case of Camera Bug and AI Detector, these items could possibly be merged into a single 2tc item.

There's also the fact that weapons are used often because they are weapons. Even if I have a Steal objective I intend to try to complete peacefully, I usually find myself getting an esword or revolver. I don't want to get caught unarmed, and be eaten by carp, or toolboxed by a random assistant who wants my ID, or beaten by rogue borgs and launched to the bomb test range.
It'd be good if there was a <4tc 'backup' weapon which was less powerful than your typical esword/ebow/revolver but enough to give you some edge.

Oldman Robustin wrote:I made a nice thought out post about this issue but it took so long that the forums logged me out and I lost everything.

So I'll simply use this message to jumpstart the conversation here.

In my vast experience on SS13, I feel that traitor has become exceedingly weak and stale as an antagonist due to a multitude of factors. Someone needs to look at giving traitors a bunch of common sense items for low TC (insulated gloves, a more discrete/robust stunprod, a tool that instantly unbolts and temporarily disables AI control on doors without having to mess with wires) and reduce the cost of virtually all non-combat gear to 1-2 telecrystals (voice changer, chameleon jumpsuit, implants, etc.).

I should start fearing traitors again, not just for their ability to murder people in maint.- but for the chaos, paranoia, and intrigue that they can create. I see this in nearly every other game mode now but I find myself dreading traitor/DA rounds on both sides (security and the antag role) simply because they are beginning to feel more and more like extended.

You mentioned paranoia properly, just for that.
Reducing prices on non-combat items is actually a really interesting idea. Certainly worth a try.

Also Cheri a backup weapon like that would usually just be something like a toolbox or a pickaxe in terms of damage, but it would probably instnatly give you away as a traitor, making it a rather unappealing solution. Could be an energy dagger or something (w_class 1 when off, 2 when on, between 10 and 15 damage, does 20 throwdamage for when you're desperate.)

I kind of agree.

I would change the following items:
- Suppressor: 1 (from 2)
- Chameleon: should come with chameleon shoes, coat and backpack
- Agent ID: you should be able to rename it every 5 minutes
- Voice changer: 3 (from 4)
- Emag: should be able to emag blast door control buttons (Why did mappers start making those ID locked in the first place? This isn't safety station)
- Toolbox: should be instead a "Synditool" that fits in your pocket and can transform into any tool like a chameleon jumpsuit.
- Radiocative microlaser: this is new, but the cooldown seems large. Maybe reduce it by 20%.
and we should also have goon's surplus crate. This costs 10 and spawns a crate with around 15-20 worth of random items, some of them not available otherwise. (and it should always have a balloon because why not)

I support making all non combat items 1-3 TC.

And Syndietool, brilliant. Needs to be a thing.

Scott wrote:I support making all non combat items 1-3 TC.

And Syndietool, brilliant. Needs to be a thing.

>calling it syndietool
>not calling it Syndicate Army Knife

The chameleon jumpsuit is a poster child for a utility idea that just didn't go far enough, hell last I checked it still has some defunct jumpsuit designs. Maybe there should be a chameleon badge accessory that makes any article of clothing appear as any other in the same class, not having the functionality other than clothing layering but it could help. Might need a special option for disguising containers. Rainbow modes for each item class though for if it gets emped. Need special ways to put it on container clothings but having traitors expend tc to have hidden booty (or bombs with backpacks in them(they could just detonate them immediately anyway)) sounds fun enough.

On the camera bug, I have tried it and not being able to combine the variety of custom bugs and the see all camera bugs bug to have a master camera bug to rule them all is a bit sad. I was hoping to invest deep in all camera bugs and basically have ghetto AI on my hands. If anyone did this obviously another see all bug could tap into their network.

Lo6a4evskiy wrote:Well, I agree that traitors should depend less on their job and loot they can get and more on their uplink items.

But fuck "fear", "paranoia" and "spirit of SS13" in case somebody brings that up. How about we start judging impact on the game and, most importantly, players, not some arbitrary terms that don't really mean anything.

Emag and thermals don't need a decrease in cost, Jesus. Voice changer does seem quite expensive for what it does.

May be we should actually increase the amount of TC traitors and nuke ops get and also scale the prices accordingly. It will just give us more ways to balance the price.

Im absolutely in favor of scaling it up because trying to balance around 10 of a currency is a tad silly.

When I say things like fear and paranoia I simply mean that traitors are a powerful force to reckon with somewhere besides a dark corner of maintenance. That they can concoct schemes and plans that don't fall into one of the two archetypes:

1) Maintenance murderboning
2) Using non-combat gear to be less antagonistic/threatening than the average assistant

There needs to be a way to kill people like the Captain and HoS and replace them without alerting the entire station to the circumstances of their death. I know when I play HoS I really don't fear traitors anymore (except the AI).

Part of the problem also goes back to a longstanding issue with the AI. The AI has grown massively in its power over the last few years and it has meant that committing hostilities on camera without a silencing mechanism is pretty much suicide. Since this server seems ingrained with the mentality that AI's should be station gods who are 10x more significant than even the captain in determining how a round plays out, I would say that traitors need more anti-AI tools. Stuff like EMP can stop the borgs but it's not going to save you when the AI bolts you into a room (and then powers the room down). There needs to be stuff like the door "reverter" tool I mentioned that would let you escape the AI's grasp by unbolting and removing AI control of a door similar to emags (but cheaper), or hell give syndicate their own deconstructor that works like the RCD's deconstruct option. Give the syndicate a camera scrambler for 2 TC that fuzzes all cameras within a wide radius of the owner. EMP isn't good at stopping cameras since it also has the effect of shocking/bolting any doors you're trying to escape through and giving the AI a big fat camera warning wherever it happens. I said in my unposted comments earlier, let agent ID + chamo jumpsuit merge into an ultimate disguise option that changes your ID to a random name (and you can toggle this effect if you want to remain with your natural name and only a fake title) and whatever title your jumpsuit is currently set to. So when I select engineer jumpsuit, my agent ID now says I'm a station engineer.

I also strongly favor a syndicate radio encryption key. You could say that like NT gives loyalty implants, syndicate have their own hidden implants (this isn't something to code, just a "lore" explanation) and this key will allow messages to be sent discretely into the minds of all syndicate on board.

Anyone without a key cannot communicate back directly, but they can send you PDA messages or meet you directly for two-way communications. There needs be far greater tools for allowing traitors to cooperate. Giving all codewords/responses was a good start but it was just a drop in the bucket. Giving traitors the ability to effectively teamup would go a long way to making them a formidable force. I know as a traitor, security, and otherwise... the most enjoyable rounds are when antags are co-operating to deceive/destroy the crew.

Traitors need to be a threat to the stability of the station with the ability to form complex plots, not a nuisance.

leibniz wrote:I kind of agree.

I would change the following items:

....

- Radiocative microlaser: this is new, but the cooldown seems large. Maybe reduce it by 20%.
and we should also have goon's surplus crate. This costs 10 and spawns a crate with around 15-20 worth of random items, some of them not available otherwise. (and it should always have a balloon because why not)

I agree with most of those (though I still favor 2TC voice changers, 2TC already breaks a lot of powerful combos and voice changer still has limited utility... especially if it becomes more common and other crew are more skeptical).

But the microlaser needs some fundamental changes if its ever going to be useful. It's way to easy to meta someone running up and scanning you for no reason, and the knockout time isn't long enough (even at max) to move their body someplace discrete and murder them.

In my unposted previous thread I used the microlaser as an example of how nerfed traitors were, that coders would give them something so obviously weak and inconsistent and still ask for 4 telecrystals for it. Nobody ever makes new traitor items that could shift the meta, make traitor something more potent, it's just more expensive gimmicks and watered down weapons.

Syndietool sounds cool, but is actually pretty hard to code. There are several ways I can think of, but one would be hacky and the other would involve lots of copypasta, and both would probably cause a bunch of bugs.

For once I agree with you Oldman. Except for the syndicate hivemind thing, that's why codewords exist, but they need to be massively improved and expanded.

Miauw wrote:Syndietool sounds cool, but is actually pretty hard to code. There are several ways I can think of, but one would be hacky and the other would involve lots of copypasta, and both would probably cause a bunch of bugs.

Is it the "Physically replace the syndietool item with a syndietool subtype of the item it's supposed to be and just juggle all the inventory stuff"
Because yeah, that's hacky as all fuck.

Covert items should probably have something to prevent them from being used by others. Like voice lock or DNA lock or something. It would make them actually, you know, covert.

Camera bug should be able to use all of its modes without some stupid additional items.

We could always just use an RP reason, like they have no idea how to trigger the special function, and prevent them from using it through code.

Miauw wrote:Syndietool sounds cool, but is actually pretty hard to code. There are several ways I can think of, but one would be hacky and the other would involve lots of copypasta, and both would probably cause a bunch of bugs.

For once I agree with you Oldman. Except for the syndicate hivemind thing, that's why codewords exist, but they need to be massively improved and expanded.

If you can think of a way to improve codewords that'd be fine.

The average crew barely listens when you scream "BEING MURDERED ABOVE TOOL STORAGE", the average traitor doesn't even check their words and has a miniscule chance of noticing that you keep mentioning gin and victory.

You pay TC's on a gamble to try and cooperate with other traitors. They could backstab you, ignore you, or be incompetent and get you caught... I think it's a fair trade that would produce far more interesting rounds when it works.

Ikarrus wrote:We could always just use an RP reason, like they have no idea how to trigger the special function, and prevent them from using it through code.

This would be my favorite change ever.

Perhaps emagging covert items enables free use of them. This could be logged and provide a massive red flag for metagaming as well as give security a use for all those emags they accumulate in that armory closet.

Ikarrus wrote:We could always just use an RP reason, like they have no idea how to trigger the special function, and prevent them from using it through code.

If you tie it to one person, it would not make sense that other traitors cannot use it. If you let all traitors use it, it will open up meta possibilities.

Also how do you do that with noslips, for example?

could change the chamleon suit into a chamleon flesh suit for 2-4 tc which when used on somone wont give them a message but records the apperance of person scanned. So if I used it on a assitant and then put it on I would look like them including wearing same but fake clothing as them. It doesn't give the same voice as the copied person or show thier implants so if you speak it would give you away or if you scan a security officer and pretend to be one it won't show a loyalty implant.

Is it bad that I want silly items; lubenades, spraypaint for tagging walls, a battle chicken suit, a boombox that can be put next to an intercom to spam the radio with Stayin' Alive, an item that looks like a flash but actually shoots silly string?

We just need way more creative traitor items. That's it, really. Reducing the costs of non-weapons would help too.

Also, in terms of codewords, we just need to change them so it's not blatantly obvious when a traitor blurts out the phrase over the radio. I would start by removing the names of drinks from the list since nobody talks about drinks in-game anyway.

Rose-chan wrote:Is it bad that I want silly items; lubenades, spraypaint for tagging walls, a battle chicken suit, a boombox that can be put next to an intercom to spam the radio with Stayin' Alive, an item that looks like a flash but actually shoots silly string?

These are nice but not really antagonist items.

leibniz wrote:

Rose-chan wrote:Is it bad that I want silly items; lubenades, spraypaint for tagging walls, a battle chicken suit, a boombox that can be put next to an intercom to spam the radio with Stayin' Alive, an item that looks like a flash but actually shoots silly string?

These are nice but not really antagonist items.

Then give them all to the clown.

EDIT: Though Seriously, We need some secret agent stuff, Like a Laser Pen that can cut you out of the brig and can be hidden upon your person.

Oldman Robustin wrote:

Miauw wrote:Syndietool sounds cool, but is actually pretty hard to code. There are several ways I can think of, but one would be hacky and the other would involve lots of copypasta, and both would probably cause a bunch of bugs.

For once I agree with you Oldman. Except for the syndicate hivemind thing, that's why codewords exist, but they need to be massively improved and expanded.

If you can think of a way to improve codewords that'd be fine.

The average crew barely listens when you scream "BEING MURDERED ABOVE TOOL STORAGE", the average traitor doesn't even check their words and has a miniscule chance of noticing that you keep mentioning gin and victory.

You pay TC's on a gamble to try and cooperate with other traitors. They could backstab you, ignore you, or be incompetent and get you caught... I think it's a fair trade that would produce far more interesting rounds when it works.

Oh, you mean like the communication runes from cult? That's a good idea.

I'd love to have that boombox.

Imagine purchasing three, placing them near a bounched radio in space and then just killing everyone as their screams are drowned out by the STAYIN' ALIVE STAYIN' ALIVE AH AH AH AH STAYIN' ALIIIIIIIIIVE

Actually I'm going to use a pAI or voice recorder for that next time I'm traitor.

non weapon items definately should get a price reduction - except the emag. Fuck the emag, it does way to many different thing for a single 3tc item. Split it into two (or more) cheaper items. But stuff like the voice changer and agent ID are over priced, hell I think a cool alternative voice changer would be a key for your headset, you can set the name with they key in your hand, then pop it into your headset and use a specific chat shortcut (:w for example) to use the alternative voice.

Also the idea of an item that would cause a localised blackout of ALL lightsources (other then organic shit, or fire for example) would be pretty neat. Like a slowly recharging item, that causes a reasonably large area to go black for even just 30 seconds, while you go in with nvgs/thermals and do your thing. This would include camera lights, pda lights etc.

Traitors SHOULD work together more, but I don't particularly think they need some direct item to do so (although it probably wouldn't hurt). They need a great variety of code words though, and people need to ACTUALLY REMEMBER, AND USE THEM). I literally use them every round I am traitor, maybe 1/10 times I get any responses, this is a player problem, not a code problem mainly. Like I remember robustin saw me hacking into the bar backroom once, I ran off, he sent me code words, and we ended up with a 3 man traitor gang. Problem is, most traitors either don't trust other traitors, or don't even bother looking at code words. I unno. A gimmicky way around it would be to make code words be bold or something, for traitors.

In terms of AI's locking people down, c4 is actually a method to break out now that it's 1tc, but what about a traitor version of the miner's telejaunter thing? Maybe a limited amount/slow recharging uses, but would be good to get out of dodge in a hurry.

Anything that encourages traitors to play smarter, and to discourage boring murderboning is good though.

Hoping this issue doesn't die. Stale traitor rounds are really a sour point for me. If a game ever starts feeling like extended... I know it's just another traitor round.

We could look at either scaling back the power of the AI and/or providing better, and cheaper, tools for traitors to better combat the prevalence of the AI and its borgs.

While traitors do have access to offensive tools against silicons, those are useless in avoiding detection. A tool that could, for example, show no one on a camera near the traitor when activated, or a temporary way to block radio communications near a device.

In addition trying to find a way to make code words more relevant would help. From my limited experience using code words is a massive gamble that usually does not pay off. Even just pushing it in the traitors face that they have code words to use, or even having a game play mechanic where if you hear a certain code word you automaticly get a obvious alert telling you.

We need an objective like "Do not kill a syndicate agent who had identified himself toward you and is not an objective."
It should push towards cooperation between traitors.

Kuraudo wrote:We need an objective like "Do not kill a syndicate agent who had identified himself toward you and is not an objective."
It should push towards cooperation between traitors.

That isnt possible to do because it would mean constant checking from people to see if a traitor did legit say they are one to another.

What I am finding a issue of with this thread is its more talking about creating a special key or saying we should force people to work together.

There are the other common frequencies that are used which nobody is on which the syndicate could use to communicate on.

Although the chance of metagaming is high but it would be easily detectable with the right logging.

There is also the other stuff like better tools well that is pretty much a dead certain at the moment we need to make it easier for traitors to be able to know what is going on without overloading them with too much info. We could just update the traitor toolbox to instead be a toolbelt with the syndicate multitool inside and maybe giving it the ability to hold more stuff which traitors would use.

There is a lot of stuff existing already its just not placed correctly or is held in a out of date mindset the issue is working out the best format

Agent ID prevents tracking by AI, doesn't it?

Steelpoint wrote:We could look at either scaling back the power of the AI and/or providing better, and cheaper, tools for traitors to better combat the prevalence of the AI and its borgs.

While traitors do have access to offensive tools against silicons, those are useless in avoiding detection. A tool that could, for example, show no one on a camera near the traitor when activated, or a temporary way to block radio communications near a device.

In addition trying to find a way to make code words more relevant would help. From my limited experience using code words is a massive gamble that usually does not pay off. Even just pushing it in the traitors face that they have code words to use, or even having a game play mechanic where if you hear a certain code word you automaticly get a obvious alert telling you.

Please no nerfs for the AI. It's already underpowered as it is.

Reimoo wrote:

Steelpoint wrote:We could look at either scaling back the power of the AI and/or providing better, and cheaper, tools for traitors to better combat the prevalence of the AI and its borgs.

While traitors do have access to offensive tools against silicons, those are useless in avoiding detection. A tool that could, for example, show no one on a camera near the traitor when activated, or a temporary way to block radio communications near a device.

In addition trying to find a way to make code words more relevant would help. From my limited experience using code words is a massive gamble that usually does not pay off. Even just pushing it in the traitors face that they have code words to use, or even having a game play mechanic where if you hear a certain code word you automaticly get a obvious alert telling you.

Please no nerfs for the AI. It's already underpowered as it is.

I dont really see how can anyone think that.
What do you think what is the role of the AI?
What kind of power should it have to fulfill that role? What more?
When did it become underpowered? What changes caused it?

The satellite.

If you want to make a discussion about the AI, go for it, I'll see you in your thread.

i'm going to try and double the amount of TC (and double the costs of everything, just so I can have half a telecrystal costs) and then change things basically randomly and see where I end up.
soon, hopefully. i dont have a lot of time. (and first im going to do some things about sleepypens)

It would be really cool if the round's code words were underlined or highlighted or something when spoken in the chatbox for syndie players, and maybe if the words and responses were automatically visible in some tab or something. A bit handholdey, sure, but the ones it would benefit most are those that are already trying to use the code words to best effect.

Arete wrote:It would be really cool if the round's code words were underlined or highlighted or something when spoken in the chatbox for syndie players, and maybe if the words and responses were automatically visible in some tab or something. A bit handholdey, sure, but the ones it would benefit most are those that are already trying to use the code words to best effect.

Fuck me this would be so fucking cash. Please coders make it happen.

I've noticed recently that two people cooperating is incredibly strong. I had a Round with Bob Muir where we killed around 35 people between us. Obviously this was brutally unfun murder boner but my god no one could stop us.

Similarly as a friendly changeling working with a scientist we managed to be an extremely powerful team. Perhaps DA would be more interesting if pairs of agents were pitted against eachoyhrt? Kind of nicely brings new meaning to double agent and could result in a far more enjoyable gamemode.

The code word highlight would also be awesome.

Stickymayhem wrote: The code word highlight would also be awesome.

Good idea but wouldn't this be problematic with the lizard's hissing ?
Let's say the word used is "Socialist", a lizard saying this will turn it into something like "Ssocialisst", thus altering the word and not activating the highlight command.

It could check for words to highlight before speaking them.

It would be a good feature, but it would require checking every single word in every sentence said. It just sounds like a recipe for lag.

Well, obviously, a traitor wouldn't want to highlight the code words every time he speaks them. Ordering a drink can be meaningless. It should work like radio and special chats, :t for highlighting code words in that phrase, for example.

Cheridan wrote:It would be a good feature, but it would require checking every single word in every sentence said. It just sounds like a recipe for lag.

Any kind of command to do this would be fine as well.

Cheridan wrote:It would be a good feature, but it would require checking every single word in every sentence said. It just sounds like a recipe for lag.

Would only checking sentences said by antag types that get codewords and using something like findText() help much?

Stickymayhem wrote:Similarly as a friendly changeling working with a scientist we managed to be an extremely powerful team. Perhaps DA would be more interesting if pairs of agents were pitted against eachoyhrt? Kind of nicely brings new meaning to double agent and could result in a far more enjoyable gamemode.

This seems like a really good idea. It would allow for deeper trickery and more complex plots while also giving more opportunities for DAs to be caught when their conspiratorial talk is overheard. At least having some kind of multiple small antag team game mode would be nice.

Xerux wrote:

Cheridan wrote:It would be a good feature, but it would require checking every single word in every sentence said. It just sounds like a recipe for lag.

Would only checking sentences said by antag types that get codewords and using something like findText() help much?

You mean text would only get highlighted if an antag says it? That seems meta as hell. If the codeword was some common thing then the person saying it could be found out by another traitor and killed/snitched on.

The whole point is for other traitors to see it though. The one situation where it works would be if the traitor just said the word casually and someone was like 'OH THAT'S A CODEWORD AND IT HIGHLIGHTED SO HE'S A TRAITOR TOO' in which case just make it so they have to list all the words or all the responses in the same line.

It just seems incredibly hand-holdy. How hard is it to pay attention to chat?