Tackling the security problem.

For feedback on the game code and design. Feedback on server rules and playstyle belong in Policy Discussion.

Moderators: MisterPerson, Code Maintainers

User avatar
Kuraudo
 
Joined: Tue Jul 22, 2014 9:48 pm
Location: France
Byond Username: Arumashi

Tackling the security problem.

Postby Kuraudo » Sat Aug 30, 2014 11:44 am #26224

Because, we all know it. There is a problem.
The security numbers are low compared to the rest of the useful jobs. We often have enough engineers to run the singularity engine, enough scientists do to research, enough cargo to supply the station, but i feel like we seldom have enough security personnel to keep things in order.
It's not a rare occurence to have absolutely no security officers. Or a number like 2, in a round of 40 + players.
The HoS role is rarely occupied. Being a HoS became a burden. When someone farts the wrong way, you have to take it into consideration. Plus you are a target for many shitlers and antags.

Detective for example, is a job i'd like to play in a normal context. Problem, there is no normal context after a couple of minutes into the round. Investigating one murder of a random guy make no sense while the station becomes an absolute shitfest and the bodies start piling up.
This logic can be extended to the basic sec officer. When playing sec, after some time into the round, you get to swim against the current.
I will never blame antagonists for doing their jobs and creating chaos, but i feel like there is no appropriate response to this because security is just not appealing.
I identified four problems. When you take them separately, they are not enough to keep you away from sec, but the fact that they are combined is deterrent enough;

- No/Reduced antag chances.
- Reduced access: No maint for example.
- Systematic feeling of failure at your main mission: Keeping everything in order.
- Increased admin supervision.

Add a fifth problem that acts like a vicious circle: Low sec population is a cause and a consequence by itself.

I'm creating this topic as a basis for reflection on such a critical matter.
My opinion is that you can make sec more appealing by buffing it. I don't know how, but adding some basic access can be a start.
"He can't be bargained with. He can't be reasoned with. He doesn't feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And he absolutely will not stop, ever, until you are brigged."



Lo6a4evskiy
 
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 6:40 pm
Byond Username: Lo6a4evskiy

Re: Tackling the security problem.

Postby Lo6a4evskiy » Sat Aug 30, 2014 12:24 pm #26226

Kuraudo wrote:- No/Reduced antag chances.

Better that than stun baton in maint. If that's not already the case, security should still roll for wizards, blobs, nuke ops and malfs.
Kuraudo wrote:- Reduced access: No maint for example.

Remove assistant's maint access, problem solved. If that's an issue to you, ask AI to enable emergency maintenance access. Or HoP for access.
Kuraudo wrote:- Systematic feeling of failure at your main mission: Keeping everything in order.

That's a problem? Impossible to tackle at any rate.
Kuraudo wrote:- Increased admin supervision.

How's that a problem? If you aren't a complete shitlord, you won't even get bwoinked. Absolute most of the time people you're dealing with got themselves into trouble and will not adminhelp/will be told off.

In my opinion, assistant nerf is in order, not security buff. They have plenty of toys already, the best gear on the station if you exclude telescience.

User avatar
Steelpoint
Github User
 
Joined: Thu Apr 17, 2014 6:37 pm
Location: The Armoury
Byond Username: Steelpoint
Github Username: Steelpoint

Re: Tackling the security problem.

Postby Steelpoint » Sat Aug 30, 2014 12:28 pm #26227

In my opinion, Security could see to a few quality of life improvements to boost player retention and enjoyment. Fact of the matter is however that the very nature of the job will keep people away let alone anything else.

Firstly Security do need basic Maintenance access at bare minimum. I would also go further to suggest that all Sec Officers have basic departmental access, as Security personal are among one of the few station personal that have a legitimate need for immediate access to areas of the station in short notice, however any suggestion of granting Security additional access (Maint included) will raise ire.

Secondly, while I am vehemently against Security antag as I believe that it attracts the kind of players we don't want to be in Security, I do think that if antag assignment code is ever updated to select your antag role before you job role, that would solve this issue efficently. Due to my personal role as playing Security all the time, I have almost never gotten he opportunity to play as a antagonist, the only times I do are either when I play the Janitor/Viro or when I ghost and suddenly get Wiz (When AFK)/Syndiborg or similar.

Thirdly, my contact with admins has mostly been positive, so long as I'm following procedure/law I have never gotten in trouble with the admins. Of course that does not mean there is no problem, I do get a lot of ahelps which can unsettle most players, and I've heard horror stories (From a wide group of people, including admins) on SoS's reactions to Security personal.
Image

Scott
Github User
 
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 1:50 pm
Byond Username: Xxnoob
Github Username: xxalpha

Re: Tackling the security problem.

Postby Scott » Sat Aug 30, 2014 12:40 pm #26230

I just had a crazy idea. What if the antag protected jobs could roll for a special kind of antag, that would give them the freedom of an antag against non implanted people? Antag as normal, but with forced RP rules so they don't turn against Security. An infiltrated NT black ops agent instead of a syndicate agent. License to kill and griff against people who aren't loyal to NT. If they would have an uplink or not, I don't know.

It would let Sec players have total freedom once in awhile. Is a greyshirt gonna be as confident bothering a Security Officer that might just shoot him dead?

User avatar
lumipharon
 
Joined: Mon Apr 28, 2014 4:40 am
Byond Username: Lumipharon

Re: Tackling the security problem.

Postby lumipharon » Sat Aug 30, 2014 2:33 pm #26237

The access problem is a problem, because most of the crew in normal rounds on sybil have maint access, and sec aren't among them. If there wasn't 50 million assistants, it wouldn't be such an issue, however it's extremely unlikely that is going to change any time soon, so sec need to have mint access, or assistants need to lose it.

Playing as sec is far, FAR more enjoyable, now that I don't have to constantly worry about my fellow officers murdering me at any moment, seriously, it made it a lot less shitty. Having said that, I do agree that playing as sec, at the expense of being most antags positions is shit, and everyone also knows that the best solution would be to choose antag status before choosing jobs, but it's apparantly rather difficult to code; I know someone is/was trying to do so recently, I saw a ticket in git about it, but I'm not sure if it was actually working, so if someone can figure out how to do it, that would be great.

I can't really say I feel any 'systematic feeling of failure', since the station going to shit fairly often, is basically just par of course, on tg.

I wouldn't say admin supervision is the problem, it's more the different standard sec is held to, which can make playing sec feeling frankly pretty frustrating and pointless sometimes. Not sure if sec policy will get improved any time soon, sadly...

The pop cycle is the same as poor artyom, and is a significant issue. Playing as sec, if I can get a couple of good other people as sec in a round, and have a good round, the number of people in sec goes way up for hours after. When there's no/little sec though, who the hell is going to choose sec to latejoin, knowing how awful it will be on sybil? It's literally not worth the shit you're going to have to deal with, if you don't have other (semi)competent people to work with.

User avatar
Whoisthere
 
Joined: Mon Jul 14, 2014 8:11 am
Byond Username: Whoisthere

Re: Tackling the security problem.

Postby Whoisthere » Sat Aug 30, 2014 2:47 pm #26238

In my opinion the biggest problem of sec is incompetence of heads of security and absence of communication/discipline that arise from it.

HoS is supposed to organize and discipline rest of the sec. Roll call when the shift starts. Someone doesn't answer? Demotion. Officers not listening to your orders? Demotion/brig. Security should be staffed with officers who are TEAM PLAYERS able to LISTEN TO COMMAND and PROVIDE INFO ON THE SITUATION THEY ARE IN. HoS is supposed to CONTROL AND DIRECT HIS OFFICERS and serve as support in tough situations/work to improve his department, not arrest greyshirts.

Seriously. The HoS is capable of implanting his officers with tricord/inaprov implants. He can interact with cargo/R&D to improve the equipment of his troops. He can keep tabs on his officers via cameras and crew monitoring console so when an officer is down, he can send help quickly. Instead many of them will behave like mute sec officers with more access, responding to screams of "help assistants pushing each other at HoP's line".

Officers, on the other hand, must LISTEN TO HOS and PROVIDE BASIC INFO about their actions: "I'm heading into dark maint after hearing clown shoes squeak and then someone getting beaten".

Make it clear that security officer is a job which is about a) communicating b) being a team player c) being robust d) interacting with your department maybe
Make it clear that HoS is a job which is about a) directing and managing your officers b) directing and managing your officers c) directing and managing your officers.

Maint access issues? HoS can just radio the HoP and tell him to give out maint issue to sec, and sent his officers to get access.

Can't catch a murderbonering antag because he's doing the thermals esword water bottle thing in maint? Tell the AI to bolt maint exits, send your officers in to scour maint on "walk" and order them to not split up while keeping tabs on their health. Potator is robust and can take out several officers at once? Provide support to your officers by running up to the antag with a primed flashbang in your hand dragging beepsky behind going in yourself, deploying lube grenades that you asked the CMO to make and laughing at the slipped traitor or getting the AI to send in borgs first.

Make it a policy to ban/warn people who refuse to team play and communicate from sec, or let heads of security brig and demote officers for not following orders. Having no sec is better than having 2 sec officers and a warden who end up mutestung and eaten separately/taze each other because one of them arrested a suspect CMO or CE.

P.S. When sec is being run by an actually competent HoS and everyone communicates, it becomes a team of tactical operating operators which is much more fun than running after a wizard with a taser in hand. I remember when I found a bunch of constructs shells in space right next to a maint window. I radio'd it to the HoS, and we ended up making an ambush. When the wiz came to soulstone the construct, we just popped out of lockers and lasered the wiz into crit before he could do anything.
Sad elegy
Highly suitable for use in funerals

Lo6a4evskiy
 
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 6:40 pm
Byond Username: Lo6a4evskiy

Re: Tackling the security problem.

Postby Lo6a4evskiy » Sat Aug 30, 2014 3:00 pm #26240

Problem is, if you demote anyone who doesn't answer the radio, you'll end up alone most of the time. Or with some shitty useless detective.

User avatar
Whoisthere
 
Joined: Mon Jul 14, 2014 8:11 am
Byond Username: Whoisthere

Re: Tackling the security problem.

Postby Whoisthere » Sat Aug 30, 2014 3:09 pm #26244

If typing ":sMedbay officer reporting" once is too hard for them, fuck them.
Sad elegy
Highly suitable for use in funerals

Lo6a4evskiy
 
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 6:40 pm
Byond Username: Lo6a4evskiy

Re: Tackling the security problem.

Postby Lo6a4evskiy » Sat Aug 30, 2014 3:18 pm #26246

Oh yeah, being the only security person is so much teamwork

User avatar
Whoisthere
 
Joined: Mon Jul 14, 2014 8:11 am
Byond Username: Whoisthere

Re: Tackling the security problem.

Postby Whoisthere » Sat Aug 30, 2014 3:20 pm #26247

Hire new officers. Ahelp those that refuse to listen to your orders. I don't see any other way to improve sec now but to enforce cooperation.
Sad elegy
Highly suitable for use in funerals

User avatar
MisterPerson
Board Moderator
 
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2014 4:26 pm
Byond Username: MisterPerson

Re: Tackling the security problem.

Postby MisterPerson » Sat Aug 30, 2014 3:40 pm #26251

Most of these suggestions are policy problems, especially sec/assistant maint (config option), admin enforcement, and general sec policy. Please only post code-related ideas (sec getting basic department access for example).

Assigning antags before assigning jobs is an upcoming goal, it's just something that takes a good deal of effort. Unlike most things that take a lot of effort, this one is actually worth it.
I code for the code project and moderate the code sections of the forums.

Feedback is dumb and it doesn't matter

User avatar
Steelpoint
Github User
 
Joined: Thu Apr 17, 2014 6:37 pm
Location: The Armoury
Byond Username: Steelpoint
Github Username: Steelpoint

Re: Tackling the security problem.

Postby Steelpoint » Sat Aug 30, 2014 3:47 pm #26252

I really would like to see Security Officers gaining basic departmental access, it would be a great boon for Security and reduce frustration but also allow Security to better respond to a crisis instead of sitting around idlelly until the HoS/AI/Some random guy comes over to let them in.
Image

User avatar
lumipharon
 
Joined: Mon Apr 28, 2014 4:40 am
Byond Username: Lumipharon

Re: Tackling the security problem.

Postby lumipharon » Sat Aug 30, 2014 3:53 pm #26255

A lot of that work in practise Who, is pretty handled by the warden. His job is to literally to sit in the brig all day. So when the warden isn't busy processing people, they are expected to be watching the cameras, keeping track of what everyone is doing, updating records, and all that Jazz. Atleast that's how I play warden.

Incomptinence
 
Joined: Fri May 02, 2014 3:01 am
Byond Username: Incomptinence

Re: Tackling the security problem.

Postby Incomptinence » Sat Aug 30, 2014 4:35 pm #26261

Frankly if a station with a security force is important to people they pretty much need to step up and be the security at this point. Think of it as some sort of minimum rather than majority vote.

There have been a fair few changes to try and herd people into the role like cats, while I think they were detrimental part of the intent was to help really.

Not even past experiments in removing assistant maint helped. Well it put engineering roles closer to being the penultimate traitors but hey allowing engineering and science to frequently turn the station into shredded wheat while a botanist bounces a tainted berry off a cheap cotton mask is the norm around here.

Scott
Github User
 
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 1:50 pm
Byond Username: Xxnoob
Github Username: xxalpha

Re: Tackling the security problem.

Postby Scott » Sat Aug 30, 2014 7:07 pm #26279

My problem with security getting basic department access is that it gives antags less room to work. Maintenance access is already a big intrusion and I agree that SOs should have it, but departments should still be private. There are already SOs assigned to each department, that should be enough.

User avatar
Kuraudo
 
Joined: Tue Jul 22, 2014 9:48 pm
Location: France
Byond Username: Arumashi

Re: Tackling the security problem.

Postby Kuraudo » Sun Aug 31, 2014 12:04 am #26319

Sec not having basic access like maint is, like I said, a part of the problem. But I'd like to quote some dude from the old forum who said this:

As medic, you can treat patients. You can break to chemistry or genetics if needed, CMO presence doesn't affect your ability to heal people.
As scientist, you can do what is needed in your job usually not even talking once with other scientists or RD.

As security officer, too many things can fail:
- Do we have a competent HoS, or just guy who act like regular officer with more guns and access?
- Do we have a competent warden who will keep an eye on brig? Or should I expect breaks and stolen armory when I am back from intervention?
- Do anyone will respond to my "BACKUP TO X" calls or they will think "Others will go, my cargo security post is so warm..." or didn't even notice?
- Do detective will do his job or will just act like security officer?
- Do officers will care of my scanner reports or I will hear "Why X is wanted?" after 30 minutes of informing them?


I think he is spot on. The efficiency of the security job depend on too many factors for them to be efficient on a regular basis. This guy talked about medics and scientists, I can even add engineers and cargo as autonomous jobs with no/low external factor influence.
Today I played a round in which I was sec. The virologist was a head rev who decided to inject people with a virus giving them all the advantages you can think: super powers, super speed, etc. I won't go into the details but playing sec in that round was such a nightmare, my death near the end of the round had a liberating feel to it.
Somehow we must think of a way to balance that.
"He can't be bargained with. He can't be reasoned with. He doesn't feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And he absolutely will not stop, ever, until you are brigged."

Lo6a4evskiy
 
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 6:40 pm
Byond Username: Lo6a4evskiy

Re: Tackling the security problem.

Postby Lo6a4evskiy » Sun Aug 31, 2014 5:33 am #26344

Kuraudo wrote:Sec not having basic access like maint is, like I said, a part of the problem. But I'd like to quote some dude from the old forum who said this:

As medic, you can treat patients. You can break to chemistry or genetics if needed, CMO presence doesn't affect your ability to heal people.
As scientist, you can do what is needed in your job usually not even talking once with other scientists or RD.

As security officer, too many things can fail:
- Do we have a competent HoS, or just guy who act like regular officer with more guns and access?
- Do we have a competent warden who will keep an eye on brig? Or should I expect breaks and stolen armory when I am back from intervention?
- Do anyone will respond to my "BACKUP TO X" calls or they will think "Others will go, my cargo security post is so warm..." or didn't even notice?
- Do detective will do his job or will just act like security officer?
- Do officers will care of my scanner reports or I will hear "Why X is wanted?" after 30 minutes of informing them?


I think he is spot on. The efficiency of the security job depend on too many factors for them to be efficient on a regular basis. This guy talked about medics and scientists, I can even add engineers and cargo as autonomous jobs with no/low external factor influence.
Today I played a round in which I was sec. The virologist was a head rev who decided to inject people with a virus giving them all the advantages you can think: super powers, super speed, etc. I won't go into the details but playing sec in that round was such a nightmare, my death near the end of the round had a liberating feel to it.
Somehow we must think of a way to balance that.

Just as medic is not supposed to prevent every single death, engineer is not supposed to fix every broken window, security officer is not supposed to prevent every single crime and catch every single criminal. You're alone, sure, that happens, focus on big stuff, recruit yourself some help, jeez, let those assistants play vigilantes if you feel like you cannot protect armory anyway. All listed problems do not prevent you from doing your job in any way, you don't even need anyone to open chemistry or secure storage for you to get started.

And rev is frankly just a shitty game mode. Superpowers symptom is also fucking retarded. Both exist literally only to make people griff and make less people want to play security. We don't really have much do discuss here if we still have that kind of bullshit.

User avatar
Reimoo
 
Joined: Wed Apr 23, 2014 2:58 pm
Byond Username: Reimoo

Re: Tackling the security problem.

Postby Reimoo » Sun Aug 31, 2014 8:07 am #26353

What we really need to do is heavily buff security and traitors at the same time. That would make the job less of a headache while at the same time keeping game balance in check because it would effectively deaden greytiding. Right now the standard security officer is a pushover when it comes to dealing with mundane non antag criminals.

Lo6a4evskiy
 
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 6:40 pm
Byond Username: Lo6a4evskiy

Re: Tackling the security problem.

Postby Lo6a4evskiy » Sun Aug 31, 2014 9:17 am #26359

Or nerf assistants which is a lot easier.

User avatar
Stickymayhem
In-Game Game Master
 
Joined: Mon Apr 28, 2014 6:13 pm
Byond Username: Stickymayhem

Re: Tackling the security problem.

Postby Stickymayhem » Sun Aug 31, 2014 9:29 am #26361

Lo6a4evskiy wrote:Or nerf assistants which is a lot easier.


You really can't nerf assistants as the tool that makes them so dangerous is the basic game mechanics SS13 is based upon. In this case buffing sec and traitor is the best option. When enough greytiders get dunked over and over for being shits they will stop for good.
Image

Image

Lo6a4evskiy
 
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 6:40 pm
Byond Username: Lo6a4evskiy

Re: Tackling the security problem.

Postby Lo6a4evskiy » Sun Aug 31, 2014 9:38 am #26362

Er, yes you can. You can remove their maintenance access and you can limit the amount of tools publicly available. And that thing about reducing antag chances? Do you still remember that?

Obviously assistant players are so whiney and there are so many of them, that this is never going to be implemented, I'm not even gonna suggest actually enforcing "You answer to absolutely everyone" part. I personally don't understand what would be wrong with admins giving assistants extra harsh treatment, because some jobs already get extra admin attention, but obviously this is never going to happen.

However, I still don't hear any concrete suggestions concerning your "best option".

User avatar
Kelenius
 
Joined: Sun Apr 20, 2014 10:53 am
Byond Username: Kelenius

Re: Tackling the security problem.

Postby Kelenius » Sun Aug 31, 2014 10:44 am #26365

Why can't you take your fucking 'nerf assistants' and shove it somewhere else.

This thread is about security.

There is a 'nerf assistants' thread, stop bringing it everywhere.

User avatar
Steelpoint
Github User
 
Joined: Thu Apr 17, 2014 6:37 pm
Location: The Armoury
Byond Username: Steelpoint
Github Username: Steelpoint

Re: Tackling the security problem.

Postby Steelpoint » Sun Aug 31, 2014 10:59 am #26367

There is only so much you can do to nerf assistants. Personally it would be more feasible to buff Security and Antagonists rather than nerf anything else.

The problem is that by giving Security maintenance access and/or basic departmental access, traitors get nothing to benefit or compensate. Which could create a unbalance.

--------

So lets examine the outcome of granting Security their buff. In this example, let us assume that now all Security Officers have maintenance access and full basic departmental access, so essentially they can walk in the front door of any department.

What does this do to antags (Assuming Traitors, Changeling's and Cultists primarily)? It does the following
- Makes it easier for Security to respond to you doing something.
- Harder to avoid Security since now you cannot just close the maintenance door on them. (Still somewhat viable to hide in maint due to it being very expansive and dark)
- Cannot cut of Security from one another as easily, so not having the only HoS run in and stranding his fellow Sec Officers outside of Science.
- Harder to dispose of corpses, now have to rely more on actively disposing them instead of hiding them in a locker in maint.

What does this not do for Security?
- They will not have full departmental access, so they can't wander into Toxins or the Cargo Bay. Still viable to preform antag actions in here.
- Since they have maint access, it may be easier to attack a Sec Officer in the darkness of maintenance.
- Leading from the last point, a lone Officer in maint is easy for a lone antag to take out. Though you will have to work fast.

So ultimately the primary problem that arises from Security's increased access is the loss of areas to preform overt antag actions. This affects the following antags in the following ways:
-Changelings: Will force more effort on the lings part to find a even more hidden area to absorb targets.
-Traitors: Evading Security and hiding bodies is more challenging.
-Cultists: Harder to coordinate with fellow Cultists with the threat of a Sec Officer walking by.
-Blob: No real difference, though if Sec Officers patrol maint regularly it might force the blob out faster than usual. Quicker response time from Sec in bringing weapons to bear however by the time a blob is found the AI would have unlocked access restrictions on maint.
-Nuke Ops: Minor difference, hiding in maint not as viable, may have a Officer run by as your setting up/nuking stuff.
-Wizard: No real difference.

The question is are these changes significant enough to hurt antags, and what can be given to buff antags to compensate?

Buffs could range from better corpse hiding tools, better player detection methods, more expansive maintenance areas?
Image

User avatar
cedarbridge
In-Game Admin
 
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 12:24 am
Byond Username: Cedarbridge

Re: Tackling the security problem.

Postby cedarbridge » Sun Aug 31, 2014 8:25 pm #26421

Scott wrote:My problem with security getting basic department access is that it gives antags less room to work. Maintenance access is already a big intrusion and I agree that SOs should have it, but departments should still be private. There are already SOs assigned to each department, that should be enough.

SO's have general access, but (for example) the Science officer can't open Toxins or Telescience. This feels pretty silly because if a crewman in either of those rooms gets jumped from maint, the sec officer can't do anything.

User avatar
Reimoo
 
Joined: Wed Apr 23, 2014 2:58 pm
Byond Username: Reimoo

Re: Tackling the security problem.

Postby Reimoo » Sun Aug 31, 2014 10:26 pm #26435

You have to think about the viewpoint of the antag doing the jumping as well. If you get jumped in toxins it would be slightly unfair for a security officer to immediately come to your rescue within seconds. However, if the officer had completely no access to the department at all, there's too much of a time gap to make a security response a threat. General department access would allow security to respond more quickly to distress calls while still barring specific room access to allow antags time to get out before they are caught.

User avatar
Cipher3
In Game PermaBanned
 
Joined: Thu May 08, 2014 11:17 pm
Byond Username: Cipher3

Re: Tackling the security problem.

Postby Cipher3 » Mon Sep 01, 2014 12:46 am #26443

cedarbridge wrote:
Scott wrote:My problem with security getting basic department access is that it gives antags less room to work. Maintenance access is already a big intrusion and I agree that SOs should have it, but departments should still be private. There are already SOs assigned to each department, that should be enough.

SO's have general access, but (for example) the Science officer can't open Toxins or Telescience. This feels pretty silly because if a crewman in either of those rooms gets jumped from maint, the sec officer can't do anything.

It's true - Sec officers should just have all access. If they don't, they might not be able to reach whatever obscure place is in trouble!
Spoiler:
Nathanael Greene begins to reshape Bryce Pax's genitals to look more feminine.
Nathanael Greene has made a woman of Bryce Pax!

Valerie Sinnet says, "Nathaniel Greene charged the brig with a fucking HONK."

[Common] Assists-the-Crew hisses, "Walker Quinn s-s-s-ss-stole the HoP's-s-s-ss-s door"

OOC: HotelBravoLima: I literally can't be removed from power.

This line gets me every time:
I demand this ban be lifted right now. ~Bibliodewangus

What you hear walking past people:
Erin Wake whispers, "You should ready up on Badger and boink with me..."

"I think you guys are just tired of drinking hitler and now you want diet hitler.
I've got all that great hitler flavor but only half the hitler calories." - Anon3

You seem to be under the mistaken assumption that PR matters. ~MisterPerson

DEAD: Ichigo Momomiya says, "Coravin's just an ass."

Linus Johnson says, "Hey you know I got this game Skyrim last week"
Linus Johnson says, "I have a level 19 ranger and its so fun"
Weston Zadovsky says, "did he just"
Weston Zadovsky says, "fucking hell"

The emergency shuttle has been called. It will arrive in 10 minutes.
Nature of emergency:
Coravin, just Coravin.

Beryl Nyuphoran says, "Fucking get out."
Coravin Vattes asks, "Please?"
Beryl Nyuphoran says, "Please get the fuck outta my lab."
Coravin Vattes exclaims, "Okay!"
[Common] Beryl Nyuphoran {RD} asks, "WHO GAVE CORAVIN ALL ACCESS?"

Lindsay Donk stammers, "L-Luc-ck w-was-s-s s-s-such-h a beaut-tifu p-p-p-pr-r-rom-m q-q-q-queen"

Ty Andrews curls up in a ball on the floor and purrs.

by oranges » Sun Feb 15, 2015 7:15 pm
Get out bluespace, you've not been relevant since you lost the elections

That said, I think there are a shitton of degenerates here and I'd probably gas the lot of you if I had the chance. ~Loonikus


Image

User avatar
cedarbridge
In-Game Admin
 
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 12:24 am
Byond Username: Cedarbridge

Re: Tackling the security problem.

Postby cedarbridge » Mon Sep 01, 2014 2:20 am #26451

Reimoo wrote:You have to think about the viewpoint of the antag doing the jumping as well. If you get jumped in toxins it would be slightly unfair for a security officer to immediately come to your rescue within seconds. However, if the officer had completely no access to the department at all, there's too much of a time gap to make a security response a threat. General department access would allow security to respond more quickly to distress calls while still barring specific room access to allow antags time to get out before they are caught.

Except the only circumstances where that would occur are where the officer is right in front of the door when the attack happens or when the call for help (if that ever happens) gets out. Generally the case is more that the officer hears or sees, and is then at the mercy of the AI's attention (rare if ever in some cases) to open the door and give chase. What usually happens is the AI is busy screaming about how somebody flashed the clown elsewhere.

Frankly, the only concern I'd have at this point is stealing a sec ID functionally gives you access to both the Sec lockers and whatever department the ID is keyed to.

User avatar
Reimoo
 
Joined: Wed Apr 23, 2014 2:58 pm
Byond Username: Reimoo

Re: Tackling the security problem.

Postby Reimoo » Mon Sep 01, 2014 4:29 am #26463

Even if the officer isn't standing in front of the door he's still most likely only mere seconds away. If you're in arrivals and a distress call comes out from science I'm willing to bet you can arrive in a little under a minute. That is simply not enough time.

However, as it stands right now, security officers can't reliably respond to calls at all because they're still trapped outside the department while the killer makes his easy getaway through maintenance. Putting the officers closer to the action would put a little more pressure on antags to be a bit more discreet in their actions but not enough to make doing said actions unnecessarily difficult. Besides, the AI isn't the only way to gain access to a room. I'm sure you're smart enough to figure out other methods.

Scott
Github User
 
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 1:50 pm
Byond Username: Xxnoob
Github Username: xxalpha

Re: Tackling the security problem.

Postby Scott » Mon Sep 01, 2014 5:50 am #26473

That's the point. Next thing you're gonna say every department needs double layer r_walls. Besides, the AI is there to open doors.

User avatar
cedarbridge
In-Game Admin
 
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 12:24 am
Byond Username: Cedarbridge

Re: Tackling the security problem.

Postby cedarbridge » Mon Sep 01, 2014 5:57 am #26475

Reimoo wrote:Even if the officer isn't standing in front of the door he's still most likely only mere seconds away. If you're in arrivals and a distress call comes out from science I'm willing to bet you can arrive in a little under a minute. That is simply not enough time.

On Sybil speeds, I don't think that's even possible. And that's assuming that the officer decided to go from arrivals to sci in the first place. Antags already have surprise on their side. They don't need a free 2-3 minute head start to cap off their esword/ebow drag-into-maint kill. If they want to not get caught, they should avoid being caught. Not get away because sec had to break through an R-window or two and then break into maint because they don't have access. By this time, not only is the victim dead, their body is probably either spaced or stuffed in a locker somewhere and well hidden. Meanwhile the killer takes off their gas mask and walks out scott free.


However, as it stands right now, security officers can't reliably respond to calls at all because they're still trapped outside the department while the killer makes his easy getaway through maintenance. Putting the officers closer to the action would put a little more pressure on antags to be a bit more discreet in their actions but not enough to make doing said actions unnecessarily difficult. Besides, the AI isn't the only way to gain access to a room. I'm sure you're smart enough to figure out other methods.

This essentially sums up why I would like to see sec with more access generally. Security needs to be able to get to where the crime is taking place. Not be blocked off by maint doors or departmental office doors. Of course, I can smash open window into most departments, but I really shouldn't have to. Department windows shouldn't operate as barricades to give antags a head start running away from sec.

User avatar
Steelpoint
Github User
 
Joined: Thu Apr 17, 2014 6:37 pm
Location: The Armoury
Byond Username: Steelpoint
Github Username: Steelpoint

Re: Tackling the security problem.

Postby Steelpoint » Mon Sep 01, 2014 6:03 am #26477

cedarbridge and Reimoo sum up my thoughts on sec access nicely.

Antags already have a lot going for them when it comes to doing the deed. Unless a Security Officer is literally standing outside of the room (and has access) that something is going down, your not likely to see any help from Security until well after the fact.

If Sec Officers had increased access (basic dept), then it cuts down on the long response time, and asks antag to act quicker to do the deed.
Image

User avatar
oranges
Code Maintainer
 
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2014 9:16 pm
Location: #CHATSHITGETBANGED
Byond Username: Optimumtact
Github Username: optimumtact

Re: Tackling the security problem.

Postby oranges » Tue Sep 02, 2014 9:19 pm #26723

Seems fine to me right now.

An active command team can easily grant access to security officers.

User avatar
cedarbridge
In-Game Admin
 
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 12:24 am
Byond Username: Cedarbridge

Re: Tackling the security problem.

Postby cedarbridge » Tue Sep 02, 2014 9:49 pm #26727

oranges wrote:Seems fine to me right now.

An active command team can easily grant access to security officers.

Or an inactive/no HoP ruins everything

User avatar
Kuraudo
 
Joined: Tue Jul 22, 2014 9:48 pm
Location: France
Byond Username: Arumashi

Re: Tackling the security problem.

Postby Kuraudo » Tue Sep 02, 2014 10:03 pm #26729

oranges wrote:Seems fine to me right now.

An active command team can easily grant access to security officers.


Let's turn this the other way. If security never gets denied maint access from the HoP when they ask for it, why not giving them that access at round start ?
"He can't be bargained with. He can't be reasoned with. He doesn't feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And he absolutely will not stop, ever, until you are brigged."

Lo6a4evskiy
 
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 6:40 pm
Byond Username: Lo6a4evskiy

Re: Tackling the security problem.

Postby Lo6a4evskiy » Wed Sep 03, 2014 8:38 am #26800

cedarbridge wrote:Or an inactive/no HoP ruins everything

Please explain to me how you fail to do any of your duties with your regular security officer access.
Kuraudo wrote:Let's turn this the other way. If security never gets denied maint access from the HoP when they ask for it, why not giving them that access at round start ?

Security does get denied access.

User avatar
Steelpoint
Github User
 
Joined: Thu Apr 17, 2014 6:37 pm
Location: The Armoury
Byond Username: Steelpoint
Github Username: Steelpoint

Re: Tackling the security problem.

Postby Steelpoint » Wed Sep 03, 2014 9:27 am #26807

Its more a quality of life issue rather than anything else.

The additional access would make the job far less annoying, slow and cumbersome. They can still do the job without it but its not as effective.

In addition, most HoPs tend to give Sec Officers basic dept/maint access when asked, there is little reason for HoPs not to and usually the Captain/HoS will breath down their neck to concede. Most of the time the HoP will just want the HoS's and/or the Captains permission before increasing access, I don't think I've ever had a HoP refuse a Officers access request that was not a antag.
Image

Scott
Github User
 
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 1:50 pm
Byond Username: Xxnoob
Github Username: xxalpha

Re: Tackling the security problem.

Postby Scott » Wed Sep 03, 2014 5:03 pm #26843

And R&D having all the necessary items for analyzing lined up on a long table would also make the job less annoying, slow and cumbersome.

User avatar
Steelpoint
Github User
 
Joined: Thu Apr 17, 2014 6:37 pm
Location: The Armoury
Byond Username: Steelpoint
Github Username: Steelpoint

Re: Tackling the security problem.

Postby Steelpoint » Wed Sep 03, 2014 5:14 pm #26846

Scott wrote:And R&D having all the necessary items for analyzing lined up on a long table would also make the job less annoying, slow and cumbersome.


They already do.
Image

Scott
Github User
 
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 1:50 pm
Byond Username: Xxnoob
Github Username: xxalpha

Re: Tackling the security problem.

Postby Scott » Wed Sep 03, 2014 5:38 pm #26849

Nope.

User avatar
Steelpoint
Github User
 
Joined: Thu Apr 17, 2014 6:37 pm
Location: The Armoury
Byond Username: Steelpoint
Github Username: Steelpoint

Re: Tackling the security problem.

Postby Steelpoint » Wed Sep 03, 2014 5:42 pm #26850

Last time I did research, nearly everything can be done with equipment within the science department. A combination of items from the RnD room and a few items from robotics will get you most RnD levels.

The only exception is minerals from mining, and the need for acid from chemistry.

To be frank, comparing RnD research to Security access and relevance is a very far fetch.
Image

Scott
Github User
 
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 1:50 pm
Byond Username: Xxnoob
Github Username: xxalpha

Re: Tackling the security problem.

Postby Scott » Wed Sep 03, 2014 6:00 pm #26852

And Scientists do not have access to robotics. Unless RD is doing R&D, it will always be dependent on the roboticists will to provide the necessary items

User avatar
Steelpoint
Github User
 
Joined: Thu Apr 17, 2014 6:37 pm
Location: The Armoury
Byond Username: Steelpoint
Github Username: Steelpoint

Re: Tackling the security problem.

Postby Steelpoint » Wed Sep 03, 2014 6:05 pm #26853

Your equivalent would be for the HoS to have the ability to give basic departmental access to Sec Officers, meaning Officers are dependent on the HoS to provide the necessary access.

Again, comparing RnD research to Sec access is a waste of time. Science is busy researching for new items, they are not trying to stop criminals that are trying to horribly murder them.
Image

Scott
Github User
 
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 1:50 pm
Byond Username: Xxnoob
Github Username: xxalpha

Re: Tackling the security problem.

Postby Scott » Wed Sep 03, 2014 6:35 pm #26854

Well, if they can enter the department, chances are they can break a window to get into whatever room they need to be in, and sec officers are already assigned to a department.

And saving lives is not possible 99% of the time, you just want to catch the guy who did it and the dead victim can be cloned. AI can lock someone in a room until security gets there. If the AI doesn't know about it, why would security know about it and need access to get into places?

Lo6a4evskiy
 
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 6:40 pm
Byond Username: Lo6a4evskiy

Re: Tackling the security problem.

Postby Lo6a4evskiy » Wed Sep 03, 2014 7:06 pm #26857

Steelpoint wrote:Your equivalent would be for the HoS to have the ability to give basic departmental access to Sec Officers, meaning Officers are dependent on the HoS to provide the necessary access.

You what?

RD has access to robotics and R&D.

HoS has basic department access.

Why would the equivalent of RD require HoS to have the ability of HoP?
Steelpoint wrote:Again, comparing RnD research to Sec access is a waste of time. Science is busy researching for new items, they are not trying to stop criminals that are trying to horribly murder them.

Your point being? Security is not supposed to catch absolutely everyone.

Seriously, AI gives all officers all access. I've never had a problem with it.

User avatar
Reimoo
 
Joined: Wed Apr 23, 2014 2:58 pm
Byond Username: Reimoo

Re: Tackling the security problem.

Postby Reimoo » Thu Sep 04, 2014 2:43 am #26926

As we all know, relying on the AI to grant you instant access everywhere is very unreliable.

If your luck is as good as mine, the AI will always delay or ignore your request at the most crucial moment when it is needed.

User avatar
Steelpoint
Github User
 
Joined: Thu Apr 17, 2014 6:37 pm
Location: The Armoury
Byond Username: Steelpoint
Github Username: Steelpoint

Re: Tackling the security problem.

Postby Steelpoint » Thu Sep 04, 2014 3:29 am #26933

I was making a comparison Lo6, I don't even understand your first paragraph, all I said was that if Scotts situation was reversed to a Sec perspective than his example of the RD would be the HoS simply giving his Officers access by himself, not that it is possible for that to occur.

Also, AI, reliable. Good luck with that, even in the best of times the AI takes its sweet time. The only time I had a reliable AI was during a Rev round where I was the only head left alive, and that was simply because everyone was trying to harm me.
Image

Lo6a4evskiy
 
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 6:40 pm
Byond Username: Lo6a4evskiy

Re: Tackling the security problem.

Postby Lo6a4evskiy » Thu Sep 04, 2014 4:21 am #26936

Steelpoint wrote:I was making a comparison Lo6, I don't even understand your first paragraph, all I said was that if Scotts situation was reversed to a Sec perspective than his example of the RD would be the HoS simply giving his Officers access by himself, not that it is possible for that to occur.

Sigh. I get it that you did. How's this
Scott wrote:And Scientists do not have access to robotics. Unless RD is doing R&D, it will always be dependent on the roboticists will to provide the necessary items

equivalent to this
Steelpoint wrote:Your equivalent would be for the HoS to have the ability to give basic departmental access to Sec Officers, meaning Officers are dependent on the HoS to provide the necessary access.

?

It doesn't matter though, you yourself said that it's a waste of time.

Also, "Oh jee, we don't get reliable all access at round start, we can't do our jebs"

User avatar
Steelpoint
Github User
 
Joined: Thu Apr 17, 2014 6:37 pm
Location: The Armoury
Byond Username: Steelpoint
Github Username: Steelpoint

Re: Tackling the security problem.

Postby Steelpoint » Thu Sep 04, 2014 4:41 am #26944

Lo6a4evskiy wrote:Also, "Oh jee, we don't get reliable all access at round start, we can't do our jebs"


Somewhat accurate.

Security Officers are one of the few station personal that require a good level of access in order to do their assigned job well. Very few other roles require that person to be able to get to many different departments on a very regular basis.

A single scientist can do all of the RnD work easily, even without the RD or Roboticists. A single doctor can set up all of the cryo tubes and medial by themselves. Security has so many points of failure and things that can go horribly wrong that no other job role has to deal with, to quote an earlier post.

As security officer, too many things can fail:who act like regular officer with more guns and
- Do we have a competent HoS, or just guy access?
- Do we have a competent warden who will keep an eye on brig? Or should I expect breaks and stolen armory when I am back from intervention?
- Do anyone will respond to my "BACKUP TO X" calls or they will think "Others will go, my cargo security post is so warm..." or didn't even notice?
- Do detective will do his job or will just act like security officer?
- Do officers will care of my scanner reports or I will hear "Why X is wanted?" after 30 minutes of informing them?


Once again, leading back to my point that it is a waste of time comparing RnD research to Security. RnD is easy, can be done single-handedly and does not require you to leave the Sci departments, Security is hard, is a team effort, heavily reliant on many station roles in order to do the job well and requires you to be everywhere, not to mention your life is on the line.
Image

User avatar
Oldman Robustin
 
Joined: Tue May 13, 2014 2:18 pm
Byond Username: ForcefulCJS

Re: Tackling the security problem.

Postby Oldman Robustin » Thu Sep 04, 2014 6:14 am #26952

Nerfing assistants won't do anything to attract players to security.

Giving security antag rolls is a very easy and intuitive change with almost no drawbacks.

I'd roll sec a lot more if it didn't cancel my chance for wizard/nukeops/fun/etc.

Other than that you can never fix the fact that sec feels like a unpaid job. Same reason captain is relatively unpopular given the level of access/authority it has.

The sec issue isn't even as bad as it was when I last stopped playing. I'd play it more if rounds were more consistently interesting, my biggest beef with the game is (and has always been) how much the AI has displaced security. If I stay on camera where the AI's bolts do 90% of the work, I'm simply left on "drag to brig" duty.
Image

User avatar
Kuraudo
 
Joined: Tue Jul 22, 2014 9:48 pm
Location: France
Byond Username: Arumashi

Re: Tackling the security problem.

Postby Kuraudo » Thu Sep 04, 2014 10:29 am #26985

Lo6a4evskiy wrote:Your point being? Security is not supposed to catch absolutely everyone.


Nobody said that. We all know that's not possible.
A standard round in TG is where you have 2 or 3 sec officers.
Problem is, at some point into the round, they start to have way more on their plates that the resources they are given to deal with crimes. Now, we are all accostumed to some degree of what I call "endgame fuckery". But nowadays this level of chaos is often reached mid-round.
People start commiting crimes in the open, because they just know sec is too weak, too busy, to do anything against it.

The main server is crowded, and we are not on bay level of RP and discipline. Those two facts must push towards beneficial changes on sec.
Here's some suggestions. I might come up with more later.
- Give sec standard access to the main areas of all departments. And maint access.
- Double the taser capacity: From 5 to 10 shots.
- Make sec start with black gloves, or stuff a pair in the sec locker. (You don't want the detective to blame you for a crime because you picked up the evidence with your bare hands)
- Mounted flashes should be way more reliable than this. In their current state they are a joke.
"He can't be bargained with. He can't be reasoned with. He doesn't feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And he absolutely will not stop, ever, until you are brigged."

Next

Return to Coding Feedback

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users