/tg/Station 13

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Steelpoint wrote:I believe a attached armour vest camera would go a long way in making the presence of a Security Officer actually mean something, as well as force antags to be wary in attacking a Sec Officer. While antags can still get that first hit in, they will need to either act fast or gtfo before Sec busts in the door.

This is not a bad idea, but for every camera feed, you need someone watching it. I don't really see the warden or the HoS constantly monitoring the officers live feed in case of something going wrong. Sec personnel is already busy enough in my opinion.

Kuraudo wrote:This is not a bad idea, but for every camera feed, you need someone watching it. I don't really see the warden or the HoS constantly monitoring the officers live feed in case of something going wrong. Sec personnel is already busy enough in my opinion.

Thats because most wardens are shitheads who think they're beat cops.
Remove front door brig access but keep armory access so they can't leave their stupid room.

A sec camera console in each departmental office would help.

Antag Selection is now made before Job Selection.

https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/4507

So you can pick security now without worrying about losing antagonist candidacy.

Was the situation before hand that if you selected a protected role, you could never get a antag position, or only the on-station antag roles?

Either way, its fantastic this PR went through. This change should be heavily emphasized in both the Changelog but, if possible, in the 'motd' message when you join the server.

Well you could be officer-blob, so I assume other non-station antags worked.

Saegrimr wrote:

Kuraudo wrote:This is not a bad idea, but for every camera feed, you need someone watching it. I don't really see the warden or the HoS constantly monitoring the officers live feed in case of something going wrong. Sec personnel is already busy enough in my opinion.

Thats because most wardens are shitheads who think they're beat cops.
Remove front door brig access but keep armory access so they can't leave their stupid room.

Security being understaffed leave the warden (and the detective) no other choice than actively chasing crime like a regular sec officer.
Other than that yes, warden should not leave the brig.

Kuraudo wrote:Other than that yes, warden should not leave the brig.

That's a stupid mindset, honestly. Warden should loot everything to make brig better, chems for implants, recruits to help him out, tables for barricades, whatever.

Point is, warden not sitting in brig whole day is totally fine.

Lo6a4evskiy wrote:

Kuraudo wrote:Other than that yes, warden should not leave the brig.

That's a stupid mindset, honestly. Warden should loot everything to make brig better, chems for implants, recruits to help him out, tables for barricades, whatever.

Point is, warden not sitting in brig whole day is totally fine.

The difference is what the warden is actually doing outside the brig. Is he rushing off to make arrests or is he making use of the non-egun gear in the armory? I've never once seen a warden do anything like take the chem implants to chemistry for filling, take helmets to robotics for beepsky/ed construction/take a shotgun to R&D in blob (every time its been a cargo tech that brings the shotgun if it ever happens because the warden's busy lasering blob.) The warden should be the brig administrator in the active times and the armory quartermaster when its needed. Everything else is the job of an active SO. Exceptions for low pop (active arrest detective and warden) make sense because they're the only ones around, but exceptions are exactly what they are.

1 flasher in armory
1 flasher in hall before perma
1 flasher in security break room behind chair
Security barricade in front of door.

Shotgun to R&D
Pen and Paper on table with crime&punishment list prewritten
Make sure officers locked their lockers

Cargo Order
3 remote signalling devices
3 wirecutters
3 proximity sensors
3 rods
2 cable coils
-
crates
Security clothes crate
Disablers crate
spare flash bulbs

Robotics Order
3 cyborg arms
3 power cells

Chem Implant Order
150 units of tricord
25 units of dexalin+
50 units of synaptizine
25 units of hyperzine

There's my powergaming list of things I try to get for the brig when I'm warden before some asshole mistakes me for the HoS and demands I get down to the kitchen to arrest an assistant. It's enough chems to fill the implants each with 30 units of tricord, 5 units of dexalin, 10 units of Synap, and 5 units of hyperzine which will do some good if they're ever in trouble. It's the parts required to make 3 securitrons using stunprods as the batons, and it's a general list of things I should do if possible just to be a good human being to everyone else on station.

Haven't gotten bwoinked yet for it, but I'm waiting for the day so I can go back to being a voyeur with security cameras.

Extra points to cargo that uses the mailing system or a mulebot, and I'll swipe a disabler or taser crate for them if they also take my order from robotics and/or chemistry to me through either system.

Raven776 wrote: Cargo Order
3 remote signalling devices

I love having these setup on doors, nothing like one click department lockdown for robustness.

I often end up setting this up for cargo so I'd love more people to ask for them.

oranges wrote:

Raven776 wrote: Cargo Order
3 remote signalling devices

I love having these setup on doors, nothing like one click department lockdown for robustness.

I often end up setting this up for cargo so I'd love more people to ask for them.

Can't you just print these from an autolathe?

edit: wait nevermind ignore me, you're ordering them FROM cargo, not cargo ordering them from centcom.

Yeah, from cargo. I like the idea that cargo should be doing me favors.

And remote signallers are generally really robust if you know how to use them/have a good excuse for when an admin bwoinks you for excessive security-ness.

Also good to note, if you see the people in the brig 'holding each other hostage' to get out by AI law-1 or ANYTHING along those lines, get a pair of wirecutters and snip the AI control for the brig doors. AI can no longer help, them bugging the AI to help them is nothing but wasted air, and we ALL know that they weren't going to kill each other anyways. If they don't try it at least once, it's way too fucking metagamey to do this, but after the first time trying to abuse the AI I usually take that right away from them.

Raven776 wrote:Also good to note, if you see the people in the brig 'holding each other hostage' to get out by AI law-1 or ANYTHING along those lines, get a pair of wirecutters and snip the AI control for the brig doors. AI can no longer help, them bugging the AI to help them is nothing but wasted air, and we ALL know that they weren't going to kill each other anyways. If they don't try it at least once, it's way too fucking metagamey to do this, but after the first time trying to abuse the AI I usually take that right away from them.

Gr3yT1d3 is gonna love this

Fixing the AI wires is as easy as sabatoging them, and if those three doors mean the difference between the prisoners escaping and overtaking security and sitting in a nice secure area to rot for another ten minutes, then security is incompetent or left weapons lying around an area that should be clear.

With that said, so many officers fail to LOCK the lockers that hold the perma prisoner's stuff...

Security needs maint and basic departmental access. Science, Medical, Engineering, Cargo Office, Maint, Bridge. Actually, no, probably not Bridge. Either way though, currently most security will line up outside the HoP at round start and ask for more access; If this is happening as a matter of course for a long time it ought to be made official.

As much as I support increased basic departmental access, it would be difficult to get such a change through. It should be a given though imo.

Psyentific wrote:If this is happening as a matter of course for a long time it ought to be made official.

Um, that's retarded. Certain changes are meant to actually encourage/discourage different behaviors, what you said here make no bloody sense. It's the same as SecHUD for detective.

Lo6a4evskiy wrote:Um, that's retarded. Certain changes are meant to actually encourage/discourage different behaviors, what you said here make no bloody sense. It's the same as SecHUD for detective.

What behaviors are being encouraged/discouraged by limiting sec's access, and are they behaviors that we should want to encourage/discourage?

That's not the sole reason for a thing to exist.

It's just his reasoning is not valid.

And don't talk "limiting". Talk "allowing". Allowing promotes security shoving their noses into departments. Plus it's just not required.

Lo6a4evskiy wrote:It's the same as SecHUD for detective.

See, I can't tell if you're using this as some sort of assumption of agreement on this point or what. The two are only even tangentially related and a fair number of people have voiced opinions in support for each of these ideas. If you're just simply trying to link those both as "I don't like them" that's fine I guess, but making a popular argument doesn't really apply here.

What I mean was that both have quite a few people in support of them, but that doesn't automatically mean that they should be added.

That's all that my post was about. I wasn't actually arguing, I was merely pointing out a flaw in his argument.

Lo6a4evskiy wrote:And don't talk "limiting". Talk "allowing". Allowing promotes security shoving their noses into departments. Plus it's just not required.

Missed this part here. Doesn't sec already do that with cameras or law2 instructing the AI to report lawbreakers?

No? How?

I just don't really see the point. We have department sec, is that not enough?

Lo6a4evskiy wrote:No? How?

I just don't really see the point. We have department sec, is that not enough?

If you're worried about security "sticking their nose" in departments, giving them full camera access to every part of the station and every borg on the station is doing just that. You know, just sayin.

Hallways are general access but typically not some where major crimes occur. Non-departmental assigned officers (every officer spawned or assigned after the departmental ones are set or assigned the first time) are kinda stuck in a lurch. They can't respond to calls for backup from those departmental posts because they don't have the same basic access and they can't respond to emergencies inside those departments without AI intervention. This is obviously assuming the AI wasn't rogue in the first place to cause the emergency (borgs attacking sci for example)

cedarbridge wrote:If you're worried about security "sticking their nose" in departments, giving them full camera access to every part of the station and every borg on the station is doing just that. You know, just sayin.

How is that?

cedarbridge wrote:Hallways are general access but typically not some where major crimes occur. Non-departmental assigned officers (every officer spawned or assigned after the departmental ones are set or assigned the first time) are kinda stuck in a lurch. They can't respond to calls for backup from those departmental posts because they don't have the same basic access and they can't respond to emergencies inside those departments without AI intervention. This is obviously assuming the AI wasn't rogue in the first place to cause the emergency (borgs attacking sci for example)

That's probably why major crimes happen there in the first place?

I don't understand, do you expect security to catch every single criminal or something?

Lo6a4evskiy wrote:I don't understand, do you expect security to catch every single criminal or something?

You want to try this one again?

Lo6a4evskiy wrote:

cedarbridge wrote:Hallways are general access but typically not some where major crimes occur. Non-departmental assigned officers (every officer spawned or assigned after the departmental ones are set or assigned the first time) are kinda stuck in a lurch. They can't respond to calls for backup from those departmental posts because they don't have the same basic access and they can't respond to emergencies inside those departments without AI intervention. This is obviously assuming the AI wasn't rogue in the first place to cause the emergency (borgs attacking sci for example)

That's probably why major crimes happen there in the first place?

I don't understand, do you expect security to catch every single criminal or something?

That is their job, yes.

Psyentific wrote:That is their job, yes.

That's why you're terrible at it, I guess.

cedarbridge wrote:You want to try this one again?

As long as people come up with something as stupid as teleportation of people into brig, absolutely, yes.

Lo6a4evskiy wrote:

Psyentific wrote:That is their job, yes.

That's why you're terrible at it, I guess.

cedarbridge wrote:You want to try this one again?

As long as people come up with something as stupid as teleportation of people into brig, absolutely, yes.

You're making less sense as you go, friend.

I just want to say that whoever made it possible to view/update criminal records through HUDglasses imma find you irl and suck yo dick for real because that is a feature I've been hoping for forever now and god damn it's so fucking useful when it gets used.

Probably my least favorite thing about being an officer has been seeing someone set to wanted, asking multiple times over the radio why that person is set to arrest, getting no responses, and then marching all the way to a sec computer just to find that the guy has no records because the rest of the sec team thinks it's just too much of a pain in the ass to go to put their ID in a computer and write a brief description every time someone commits a crime.

Now if officers bother to make use of the records, even just a little more often than they do now, then this feature should go a long long way towards improving communication and clearing up the aneurysm-inducing confusion of trying to be a halfway decent sec officer during a chaotic round.

Rafigdoost wrote:I just want to say that whoever made it possible to view/update criminal records through HUDglasses imma find you irl and suck yo dick for real because that is a feature I've been hoping for forever now and god damn it's so fucking useful when it gets used.

Probably my least favorite thing about being an officer has been seeing someone set to wanted, asking multiple times over the radio why that person is set to arrest, getting no responses, and then marching all the way to a sec computer just to find that the guy has no records because the rest of the sec team thinks it's just too much of a pain in the ass to go to put their ID in a computer and write a brief description every time someone commits a crime.

Now if officers bother to make use of the records, even just a little more often than they do now, then this feature should go a long long way towards improving communication and clearing up the aneurysm-inducing confusion of trying to be a halfway decent sec officer during a chaotic round.

Learn how to use paperwork, set up a paper on a table in the brig, make the sec officers jot down notes, steal a file cabinet, and play QM with the brig.

There's several threads about this, but I think this is the one focusing on mechanical changes? I feel like the policy is more or less fine, but some mechanical changes I'd like to see are:

- Simplify the arrest/SecHUD system.

The recent change had the right idea, but since most wardens seem to never use their consoles to detail crimes, it isn't that effective. You cuff some shitler and filter through a handful of buttons for a reason while they decry your lack of one. I feel like the information should be more front-loaded since many brigging procedures seem to take longer than the prisoner's actual sentence. It might also increase the chances of its being used. To make it easier, I propose this - setting someone to arrest from a console brings up an (optional) prompt to fill in a reason for the warrant. This reason is displayed straight-up whenever someone is examined through a SecHUD to save officers time. A separate part of the console can be used, similar to the current system, to detail the minutiae of a prisoner's crimes. Setting someone to arrest from the HUD won't ask for a reason in case of emergencies. Similarly, you can go back and edit an existing warrant, in case you filed a blank one thinking an officer was in peril.

- a Priority/Threat system tied to the arrest/SecHUD system

Another option from the console would allow you to set a target's priority or threat level. The square around the 'W' over a wanted person's head would change colour accordingly. A green W would be minor threat, for vandals, thieves, anyone unarmed, etc. - so the officer knows they can reasonably walk up to them, ask for a search, etc. without being robusted. Perhaps less shitcurity and mutesec as a result. A yellow W would be somewhere in the middle, though I'm not sure how to tangibly define that - perhaps needing to be brought to the brig, at a minimum. A red W would indicate that the person is probably armed, dangerous, a confirmed antagonist, and generally ought to not be approached alone. Not setting a threat level would default to green or yellow, I guess.

That last bit sounds a bit more beat cop-ish than it does corporate security, but I'd find it really helpful. I'm not sure if you'd be able to or want to set a threat level via HUDs though.

What do you think about a command line based record editing? For example:

status -set "Greytide #01" arrest
record -mc "Greytide #01" "Major theft" "Slipped the captain in arrivals and stole his ID"
status -reset "Greytide #01" //to reset the wanted status

These can be simpler, I suppose.

Don't need to go clicking around slow loading html interfaces to set someone to arrest, if you know the commands for the Shitcurity OS.

Scott wrote:What do you think about a command line based record editing?

OH GOD, THIS. The most robust of sec officers can totally use this to their advantage.

Hey, with a command line kind of interface, it could be extended to the R.O.B.U.S.T cartridge if there's an ID in the PDA with the access. Then the records console would be a convenience for the people who don't know the commands.

Scott wrote:What do you think about a command line based record editing? For example:

status -set "Greytide #01" arrest
record -mc "Greytide #01" "Major theft" "Slipped the captain in arrivals and stole his ID"
status -reset "Greytide #01" //to reset the wanted status

These can be simpler, I suppose.

Don't need to go clicking around slow loading html interfaces to set someone to arrest, if you know the commands for the Shitcurity OS.

Over sec radio? Hell, through NTSL? Sweet mary mother of god yes

Psyentific wrote:Hell, through NTSL? Sweet mary mother of god yes

Then M.A.G.N.I. goes malf and writes an NTSL script to repeatedly auto-arrest the entire station while pathing all the station securitrons around, replacing all sec records with HONK HONK HONK HONK, medical records with terminal AIDS. Sec huds have everybody showing as the bartender set to arrest, all radio chatter is filtered to re-add them to the arrest record while also stating their current area location. Gasses are flooding in the vents, doors opening and closing at random, shocking and bolting. One by one every APC turns blue and equipment power shuts down. Fires are burning. Delta timer counting down. Borgs dragging off the bodies and hunting down more for the autoborger. The clown throws a banana peel and slips the warden.


I forgot where I was going with this.

Saegrimr wrote: Then M.A.G.N.I. goes malf and writes an NTSL script to repeatedly auto-arrest the entire station while pathing all the station securitrons around, replacing all sec records with HONK HONK HONK HONK, medical records with terminal AIDS. Sec huds have everybody showing as the bartender set to arrest, all radio chatter is filtered to re-add them to the arrest record while also stating their current area location. Gasses are flooding in the vents, doors opening and closing at random, shocking and bolting. One by one every APC turns blue and equipment power shuts down. Fires are burning. Delta timer counting down. Borgs dragging off the bodies and hunting down more for the autoborger. The clown throws a banana peel and slips the warden.


I forgot where I was going with this.

fund it

Wasn't it Dhool's grand vision to link NTSL to everything and go completely insane with power? I wish that would happen.

Not through the fucking radio, jesus.

Saegrimr wrote:

Psyentific wrote:Hell, through NTSL? Sweet mary mother of god yes

Then M.A.G.N.I. goes malf and writes an NTSL script to repeatedly auto-arrest the entire station while pathing all the station securitrons around, replacing all sec records with HONK HONK HONK HONK, medical records with terminal AIDS. Sec huds have everybody showing as the bartender set to arrest, all radio chatter is filtered to re-add them to the arrest record while also stating their current area location. Gasses are flooding in the vents, doors opening and closing at random, shocking and bolting. One by one every APC turns blue and equipment power shuts down. Fires are burning. Delta timer counting down. Borgs dragging off the bodies and hunting down more for the autoborger. The clown throws a banana peel and slips the warden.


I forgot where I was going with this.

You forgot the part where somebody telesci bombs the AI anyway.

AI relocated to mining asteroid or DJ satellite, opinion invalid.

Raven776 wrote:AI relocated to mining asteroid or DJ satellite, opinion invalid.

A crew that lets either (and especially the last) happen have bigger robustness issues than being able to telebomb accurately or manage telecomms. Just sayin.

It's not nearly as hard as it might seem to get the AI to the mining asteroid or the DJ satellite. The only thing the DJ satellite requires is telescience being set up but not actively manned for around one minute and knowledge of coordinates.

Raven776 wrote:It's not nearly as hard as it might seem to get the AI to the mining asteroid or the DJ satellite. The only thing the DJ satellite requires is telescience being set up but not actively manned for around one minute and knowledge of coordinates.

And knowledge of offsets which the AI cannot have unless told by somebody who knows them. You'd literally have to convince the telesci tech to give you the current offsets and then murder them almost instantly without anyone knowing. And then you'd have to hope telesci is upgraded to 50 power. DJ station is a pretty tall order. Mining station requires you have sufficient power, offsets, nobody watching telesci/the mining outpost OR literally nobody watching about 1/4 of the station including the mining dock. I've seen the mining dock hideaway work, but your odds of getting telesci to help you out are just about as good as it helping you with a bomb to the core

Can be done with a borg, did it during my last AI round to pull a guy out of space while it was sort of quiet.
I'm not exactly sure how the borg saw his own coordinates but whatever.

cedarbridge wrote:

Raven776 wrote:It's not nearly as hard as it might seem to get the AI to the mining asteroid or the DJ satellite. The only thing the DJ satellite requires is telescience being set up but not actively manned for around one minute and knowledge of coordinates.

And knowledge of offsets which the AI cannot have unless told by somebody who knows them. You'd literally have to convince the telesci tech to give you the current offsets and then murder them almost instantly without anyone knowing. And then you'd have to hope telesci is upgraded to 50 power. DJ station is a pretty tall order. Mining station requires you have sufficient power, offsets, nobody watching telesci/the mining outpost OR literally nobody watching about 1/4 of the station including the mining dock. I've seen the mining dock hideaway work, but your odds of getting telesci to help you out are just about as good as it helping you with a bomb to the core

>Find or produce a dead body with its scanners on.
>Use that as a GPS.

Well you could drag GPS onto the pad with a borg, then try and teleport it in such a way so it's on cameras then find it and do the math.

We went from the security problem to the AI problem.

No, we went from Security to NTSL to AI to Telescience and then back to AI.