Clockwork Cult (now off of rotation, suggestions go in this thread)

[Armhulen]

Bottom post of the previous page:

I agree with him on the points about disguise, and to a degree the ones about base defense. I don't agree with his proposed solutions of lanes and the like, but I'll admit that there are some kinks with what's there already that could very well stand some ironing out. I'm currently burnt out on clockcult, but I'll give some thought on how to improve those except for the obvious disguise stuff, where it's already quite clear what to patch up.

it's easy, watch this.

[Armhulen]

https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/32563

[Xhuis]

While I'm glad you have inclination to work on the mode, your attitude of "make this change or the mode is doomed to fail" seems rather childish, especially because the feedback I hear is that the mode is fun right now for both sides. Marauders are the only outstanding problem to me, and while the other mechanics are rough around the edges, they do their job well. Power was designed to either be copious or be in short supply, and defenses show that more than anything.

Removing marauders will not "fix" the gamemode, and emitters won't "save" it. Someone will always be dissatisfied about something, and I hope you're better in knowing that than Joan.

[Armhulen]

While I'm glad you have inclination to work on the mode, your attitude of "make this change or the mode is doomed to fail" seems rather childish, especially because the feedback I hear is that the mode is fun right now for both sides. Marauders are the only outstanding problem to me, and while the other mechanics are rough around the edges, they do their job well. Power was designed to either be copious or be in short supply, and defenses show that more than anything.

Removing marauders will not "fix" the gamemode, and emitters won't "save" it. Someone will always be dissatisfied about something, and I hope you're better in knowing that than Joan.

I might want to add removing conversion too but it's a step in the right direction

[Xhuis]

If you can make the mode generally more fun for the majority of people, then you're welcome to it. I just lack the motivation to keep working on this when I already feel that it's enjoyed by enough people to call it a success. Having a solid base to work off of (i.e. clear ideas and a design focus) helps a great deal but ultimately I think that the mode is strong enough to stay afloat with or without my continued work on it.

[Armhulen]

It's fun because it plays exactly like blood cult back when making a base on the white shuttle was the meta.

[Qbopper]

I think that the mode is strong enough to stay afloat with or without my continued work on it.

probably true, it's no longer "clock cult needs to be removed" and "clock cult needs [xyz]" which is a great step

[D&B]

Not sure if they're supposed to but BoH bombs still work in Reebe

[Xhuis]

Definitely intended.

[DemonFiren]

So the most efficient way to cuck the cuck cult is to just loose a bunch of singulos?

[Armhulen]

So the most efficient way to cuck the cuck cult is to just loose a bunch of singulos?

if the station is able to spam out bags of holding after 40 minutes of retarded conversion sabotage garbage then yeah they should be able to boh bomb it

[Dr_bee]

So the most efficient way to cuck the cuck cult is to just loose a bunch of singulos?

if the station is able to spam out bags of holding after 40 minutes of retarded conversion sabotage garbage then yeah they should be able to boh bomb it

The science department is still way too much of a hard counter in my opinion, I also dont know how this is going to change with decentralized RnD. Right now the clock cult has to basically dominate Engineering and Science or lose, no if ands or buts, and that leads to a kind of boring meta.

[Arianya]

The main issue at the moment is more healing virus hulks who regenerate 20 damage per tick while under the gaze of two ocular wardens, but hopefully the ongoing viro PRs work on the healing aspect of that.

[Xhuis]

That's one thing I'm looking at in what I'm hoping to make after the freeze. People have raised a lot of concern about basebuilding being a very weak part of the mode; I agree, so I'm looking to improve it. For starters, one of the servants (or a ghost, if the vote for that passes) can elect themselves as the Eminence, who leads the cult and functions like an overmind. They can issue commands through specialized markers, and coordinate what the cult does. To become Eminence, you have to nominate yourself; after 30 seconds, if no one objects, you will be vaporised and become the Eminence.

That's my idea, at least. I'd also like to add other defense options, like those emitters, but I'm a bit starved for ideas.

[ShadowDimentio]

I'm telling you, the mode should be more about the clockcucks building a dangerous labyrinth the crew has to wander through than building a ton of walls between them and the crew spawn. It'd solve every issue the mode currently has.

[Xhuis]

Them building a mass of walls is a creativity problem on the part of the players. I've seen a lot of death labyrinths, though the hulk/mech issue greatly discourages it. The Eminence can superheat a limited number of walls that hulk and mech-proofs them, so that plus other stuff I'm making should make it much more doable.

[Nabski]

I personally like the idea of a designating a ghost to building stuff. I suppose the scarabs are already up to that.

I struggle with bothering to stick around to build when I could be out trying to convert, build power, and hinder the crew.

[cedarbridge]

There's very little incentive to build mazes when there's 1) limited time to convert and build at once 2) resources limited by time spent not building but doing things elsewhere 3) mechs/hulks that invalidate maze construction in the first place

[ShadowDimentio]

You're enormously limited in clever design when it's required you build in such a way to counter hulks/mechs smashing a line through everything. Rendering a few walls unbreakable would just mean the hulks smash around them.

[Xhuis]

It's not just a couple, at any rate; the number is currently 12, and you can superheat and cool down walls instantly with no delay, so a quick-thinking Eminence could funnel people on the fly by superheating walls as needed. That can also be used to do clever things like funnel into a killzone since people would be hurrying and not caring about going through the superheated walls, or having the only non-superheated area be a giant cube of clockwork walls interspaced with defensive lines.

I am looking to add other defenses, at any rate, so hulks won't be a ggnore.

[Xhuis]

The patch is now live on GitHub, and you can view the full changes there.
I'm welcome to hear any thoughts on it, as well as ideas for traps since I'd be fine with adding more if I had sprites and concepts.

[Gun Hog]

Tower defense, Not-Cat-Slime!

Require that there be a clear path, while making clockwork walls much tougher against all forms of aggression (but not invulnerable to anything, including mechs or hulks). Thinks like the spike trap, smokescreen and the wardens are a good start. You can then herd the crew through one or more lanes while the Steampunks operate the 'towers' directly for maximum effect.

[Y0SH1M4S73R]

I've recently come to the realization that there is an overwhelming imbalance in clock cult. That is, warcult seems to always win and non-warcult seems to always lose. It feels like warcult needs severe nerfs and non-warcult needs significant buffs in order for there to be a semblance of reasonable balance.

[Xhuis]

I seem to have a curse in that when I log on to observe or watch a testmerge of a round of clockcult, the cult is always severely incompetent and dies really early on regardless of whether or not they declare war. War cult receives comparatively few buffs, such as less power requirement on scripture, and some slightly empowered objects. If I had to guess, this comes rather from the cults who do declare war knowing what to do and how to do it well than any mechanical benefits. I could also just be out of touch, though.

[onleavedontatme]

War declaration seems like a no brainer since the mode is likely going to be figured out within ten minutes anyway

[Xhuis]

Not declaring war gives the servants the extra subtlety factor; claims of a clockwork cult might not even be accepted - the stealth factor means that unless someone is sloppy and leaves material evidence like a slab or sigil somewhere, people might be suspicious and even true claims might not get anywhere. Declaring war gives the crew the entire shift to arm up and prepare to combat, while not declaring war means that they might spend any amount of time unaware of it.

[LifeReign]

No Xhuis.

Not declaring war means getting caught within 5 minutes regardless. Declaring war means you get to fuck the station over by burning/bombing the crew and win well before 30 minutes have gone by. Clock cult does best when it abuses its teleportation power to wreck havoc on the station instead of actually building defenses.

[Xhuis]

I guess you're a pariah of game design, then. My mistake.

[Armhulen]

I guess you're a pariah of game design, then. My mistake.

but he's right, a feedback thread is made exactly for those posts and you should at least not dismiss him on it

[Oldman Robustin]

He is right.

The meta has settled and the meta is this: Why spend several minutes using overt cult magic to convert a single crew member, who due to the innate un-robustness of CC magic, probably won't do jack shit, when you can just teleport anywhere and with a few clicks deliver grievous harm to the station's systems.

This is a direct result of the CC having a very high skill floor. The average clock cultist is useless and I am reluctant to convert anyone who isn't a robust static-namer. It's a pretty ugly meta. CC has specialized as a bunch of teleporting saboteurs and conversion is often just a side-effect of needing people out of your way so you can continue to flood plasma or whatever.

[LifeReign]

Clock cult is usually decided long before the ark activates, and people are just stuck doing nothing for long periods of time until the round ends. The entire station could be converted 10 minutes in, and everybody would be stuck doing nothing fun for 40 minutes. Wow this is awful.

Edit: and also apparently the Eminence is a ghost that lets the clock cult see everything in places that have cut/no cameras? So now you can't even deny vision to the clock cult? Can it also hear chat, allowing the clock cult to invisibly spy on any conversation in the station?

[Xhuis]

The Eminence can't understand anything that's said off of Reebe that a non-servant says unless they activate war. While from your demeanor I don't expect anything besides a Repukan-brand "just kill off the mode", if you have any solutions for the mode's issues, I'll take them into account. I'm currently taking a mini-break in response to all the havoc going on lately, and I'd like some time for the new defenses and Eminence to settle in.

[Lumbermancer]

It's a glorified single player mode. First when there's no security every time so cult just does what it wants, then the invasion begins and other side is trying to get through pve defenses, there's some pvp melee (after an hour of breaking through the walls) because ss13 combat engine is so amazing, and there it ends.

Form over substance.

[Arianya]

It's a glorified single player mode. First when there's no security every time so cult just does what it wants, then the invasion begins and other side is trying to get through pve defenses, there's some pvp melee (after an hour of breaking through the walls) because ss13 combat engine is so amazing, and there it ends.

Form over substance.

I'm sorry but this is the world's oddest feedback ever.

First when there's no security every time so cult just does what it wants

As opposed to every other mode where antagonists behave themselves timidly if theres no security force? If there being no sec is an issue, its not intrinsic to clockcult.

then the invasion begins and other side is trying to get through pve defenses, there's some pvp melee (after an hour of breaking through the walls) because ss13 combat engine is so amazing

So you don't like the PvE combat or the PvP combat? What exactly are you looking for in your average round then? I can't think of a single mode of ours that isn't resolved by combat other then extended, so I'm not sure what you consider "substance" in your SS13 rounds.

and there it ends.

I mean I guess the crew could be ported back to the station and carry on after unequivocally killing the round antagonist but... whats the point? If the cult hasn't smashed up half the station in the process then you're now just basically playing extended.

Overall your feedback doesn't really make sense tbh.

[Lumbermancer]

I'm sorry but this is the world's oddest feedback ever.

Well I can double down.

The opponent of the clock cult are their mechanics that they have to execute. Station can't do anything because clock cult is on a different part of existence. And when they do organize well enough to do anything, it's already too late and countdown begins.

Basically this mode works only under specific circumstances, population count and jobs present.

[Xhuis]

Though I can understand the concerns, any mode with fixed antagonists (i.e. nuke ops and this) has that issue. Nuke ops can nuke the station in ten minutes if there's no captain or HoP, and similarly, they can accomplish it with no difficulty if there's no security force. Blob had the issue, wizards do, and now CC does. It comes with the design of SS13, not just the mode itself. Player minimums and antagonist age were chosen to minimize that, but there will always be good and bad rounds depending on who's playing what job, and if people want to play a swarm of assistants and leave security unstaffed, there's nothing to be done balance-wise about that that would also cripple them if there was security.

[LifeReign]

If nuke ops win 10 minutes in, the round usually ends 10 minutes in. Blobs are generally 100% fightable. Clock cult has the horrible combination of blocking shuttle calls, being untouchable unless they're in the process of fucking with you, being a conversion antag and therefore a snowballing antag, and fixing the round length at 50 minutes, which is often too short to get anything done while they fuck you with their teleports, and too long for those who can't participate in the round. If blood cult wantonly destroys the station, the shuttle might be called and completed before they can summon, or they might gib their target. If rev destroys the station, they break their own tools and their own living spaces that they need. Clock cult can destroy the station entirely, then pick off stragglers as spaceproof golems with marauders, while keeping cultists who aren't spaceworthy on Reebe to build it up.

Again, the base building antag almost never reaches the point where the base building matters. This is a huge issue.

[Lumbermancer]

Though I can understand the concerns, any mode with fixed antagonists (i.e. nuke ops and this) has that issue. Nuke ops can nuke the station in ten minutes if there's no captain or HoP, and similarly, they can accomplish it with no difficulty if there's no security force. Blob had the issue, wizards do, and now CC does. It comes with the design of SS13, not just the mode itself. Player minimums and antagonist age were chosen to minimize that, but there will always be good and bad rounds depending on who's playing what job, and if people want to play a swarm of assistants and leave security unstaffed, there's nothing to be done balance-wise about that that would also cripple them if there was security.

I agree. That's why I keep saying traitor is the best mode in the game. But the difference between cults, and other team modes like rev, or nuke, is that the latter are much more instant, violent and quick hence their flaws are diminished.

How to make clock better? I'm not sure. I've always thought involving everyone more just works. I know you autists love to write lore and make sprites, maybe create the mortal enemy god of ratvar (heck, it could even be narsie) who would come to the aid of the station after war is declared, in the capacity dictated by how many people ratvarians converted or something like that.

[Xhuis]

snip

When basebuilding does come into play, it often plays a massive role in determining whether the cult wins or loses. The snowballing aspect is more similar to rev, because once the Ark starts, any stragglers as well as any factions that have managed to resist the influence will immediately see who is a servant or not, and ten minutes to storm the Ark is a long time. With the removal of mending mantra, infinite healing is much harder for the servants to manage, so long wars of attrition between a side with a numbers advantage and a side with a tactics advantage are untapped but certainly possible.

The fixed-ish round lengths are an issue, but I don't know of an elegant solution for them. Originally I let the shuttle come, but people were heavily in favor of removing that. I believe the round does end if all servants die.

snip

Determining things at wartime wouldn't be practical due to that it needs to be declared within five minutes, but altering aspects of it would definitely be possible after X minutes. Nar-Sie is fluffwise the enemy of Ratvar, so allowing a small Nar-Sian cult to grow as a resistance force would be both interesting and memorable, but it would be something that would have to be balanced and tested very delicately.

[Dr_bee]

How about outside of war there is no fixed round length and the shuttle can leave, have cultists be required to steal x amount of energy for the ark to start. that would give non-war rounds a varied length and it would give a minimum amount of energy that the cultists MUST have used/saved to base build.

It discourages just blowing up the entire station as they have to use it to harvest power. If you give the cultists a choice of when to activate the ark after the hit the minimum it can give them the choice of do they activate the ark now or do they wait and collect more energy and risk being caught.

It make stealth more of a focus yes, but that should be what you should be going for outside of a wardec.

[Arianya]

I don't really like having any mode type that is solely and entirely countered by calling a shuttle on red alert. Encouraging stealth is good but punishing getting caught (and thus incentivizing meta-gaming like stunning and searching anyone you see messing with an APC) is always a fast track to the round type just being "is it 20 minutes yet", which isn't fun for the antagonist or the crew who have their round ended after doing 20 minutes of work.

Doubly bad since the clocks don't have any real means to counter the shuttle call unless they got lucky and converted a head early on, an action that is non-stealthy by definition.

@Xhuis: In terms of giving the crew something more concrete to do to fight clockcult, is it possibly worth making it so that the clock cult can't teleport to blessed tiles? Might help the crew section off "protected areas". Probably want to give them some way to remove that protection once on station though, to avoid "bless and forget" behaviour.

Might need to implement "holy glasses" or something so that people other then the chaplain/clockcult can see what tiles are blessed.

[Xhuis]

The shuttle is always a dilemma for me. It's very binary as it is right now - either it does nothing or it ends the round. I'd like to make it matter somehow, but I don't know how that could be. I was thinking about maybe causing it to crash into the bottom spawn rooms on Reebe instead of arriving at Central normally, and starting the Ark prematurely with five minutes left.

Disallowing warps on blessed tiles is a good idea, I'll see about implementing it when I have the drive to code.

[Cobby]

The eminence should be able to die considering it's a ghost role that works as both a commanding unit and a dedicated scouting unit. That or at least be sent back to reebe with a cooldown of returning to the station.

It's like all the benefits of an AI and pAI without either of their downsides. You can best bet if I spot a CC I am going to not bother deconverting because I have no idea if EPIC HARM ALARM is informing the boys. They're just going to get the boot.

[Dr_bee]

The shuttle is always a dilemma for me. It's very binary as it is right now - either it does nothing or it ends the round. I'd like to make it matter somehow, but I don't know how that could be. I was thinking about maybe causing it to crash into the bottom spawn rooms on Reebe instead of arriving at Central normally, and starting the Ark prematurely with five minutes left.

Disallowing warps on blessed tiles is a good idea, I'll see about implementing it when I have the drive to code.

You can always bring back the shuttle delay machine, It would mean that the shuttle could be delayed with the trade off being less energy for defense building.

The shuttle NEEDS to be a thing to prevent the clock cult from just blowing giant holes in the station as the go-to strat for winning.

Consider making leaving on the shuttle a neutral victory, Nanotrasen didnt stop the cult and they get to try another day but the cult couldnt summon Ratvar for whatever fluff reason.

[Arianya]

The shuttle is always a dilemma for me. It's very binary as it is right now - either it does nothing or it ends the round. I'd like to make it matter somehow, but I don't know how that could be. I was thinking about maybe causing it to crash into the bottom spawn rooms on Reebe instead of arriving at Central normally, and starting the Ark prematurely with five minutes left.

Disallowing warps on blessed tiles is a good idea, I'll see about implementing it when I have the drive to code.

You can always bring back the shuttle delay machine, It would mean that the shuttle could be delayed with the trade off being less energy for defense building.

The shuttle NEEDS to be a thing to prevent the clock cult from just blowing giant holes in the station as the go-to strat for winning.

Consider making leaving on the shuttle a neutral victory, Nanotrasen didnt stop the cult and they get to try another day but the cult couldnt summon Ratvar for whatever fluff reason.

Neutral victories have never really been neutral victories. See nuke ops where its a "neutral victory" if the crew evacuate on the shuttle after losing the disk. It doesn't really feel like anything other then the antagonist having been beaten by a timer rather then the crew.

I don't necessarily see the issue with clockcult blowing holes in the station, if they gain the means? Its not like they start off with access to toxins, and if they stealth well enough that they convert/can get bombs on the sly then why should they be disallowed its use?

Its not like they're incapable of blowing the bridge if the shuttle is the game decider.

[Xhuis]

The eminence should be able to die considering it's a ghost role that works as both a commanding unit and a dedicated scouting unit. That or at least be sent back to reebe with a cooldown of returning to the station.

It's like all the benefits of an AI and pAI without either of their downsides. You can best bet if I spot a CC I am going to not bother deconverting because I have no idea if EPIC HARM ALARM is informing the boys. They're just going to get the boot.

AI is massively more powerful than an Eminence. It has control of every machine on the station. The Eminence is the designated leader role for the cult, and their primary focus is coordination and planning; that's why they can't understand conversations on the station and can't do anything with any objects except activate traps and issue commands.

If you're not going to bother deconverting, that makes you silly. Servants' toolkit is designed around defending fortifications, not storming existing ones. If you're in the brig behind fortified windows and walls, with officers there to back you up, a direct assault from the servants is almost guaranteed to fail unless nobody can aim. Keep in mind the areas that servants can't teleport to, and use that to your advantage by fortifying a room or two against incursion. If all else fails, the chapel itself is immune to any kind of teleportation, and provides an effective but accessible base of operations!

[Oldman Robustin]

Could you throw out a quick PR that lets cultist corpses cross the "barrier" on Reebe once portals open?

There's a growing trend of just having marauders on ambulance duty because cultists corpses can never be "secured", so the marauders sweep in snag a body, rez it, rinse and repeat until the crew attrition breaks them while the cultists are still in mint condition.

[Oldman Robustin]

Had a few rounds today, got to witness how disgusting marauder shields are now that cultists are routinely spawning them on station.

Jesus christ 3 100% blocks that recharge every 10 seconds what a meme.

Overall I think the last update was an improvement but the focus still needs to try and be nudged toward conversion instead of mass sabotage. Some of the traps will probably need another balance pass.

You probably need to think of how to deal with really low effort stuff like cultists teleporting into the server room or toxins and fucking up an entire department in a few clicks.

[Armhulen]

the focus still needs to try and be nudged toward conversion

i'm really unhappy with this post!

[Xhuis]

I'm making another balance pass soon, so I'll make some changes. Securing cultist corpses is a good idea, though I'm not sure how best to tweak them.

[Oldman Robustin]

I already made the PR out of impatience.

Dead cultists can cross the servant-blocker once the portals open.

Just too many rounds watching the same dude get rez'd 5 times because crew couldn't secure the body and 3-hit-immunity-every-10-seconds marauders would fish the corpse out with minimal risk.