/tg/Station 13

It's one of those things that's been with us for so long we've never really questioned it.

How do you guys feel about the "soft" 10 minute cap currently on brig timers? Do you feel that it is enough, or too high?

On one hand, it helps against grossly unfair times, but on the other hand, it encourages security players to give permanent sentences more often.

OP is staying neutral, my opinion comes later.

I once got 27 minutes for picking up handcuffs in the hallway and not returning them. Please do this.

Well that sounds like an extreme outlier Mandurrrrh, I mean beepsky and sec borgs can just create and endless stream of cuffs if security care to procure them.

10 minutes is fine, 10+ sentences are usually the result of repeat offending to the point where is it so similar to grey tiding and equally hard to manage that they are drat close to being perma'd anyway. Takes serious effort like assaulting security officers or breaking parts of the brig every time you are released to get extreme civilian sentences unless you are dealing with a hard ass who admins will probably get rid of at some point.

If I had to guess what brig time was the most common, I would guess that it's 10 minutes. I feel like if we raise the minimum to 15 or 20 or whatever, that'll be the new most common. If we could trust people to set reasonable brig times, then a limit wouldn't be needed at all.

Lowering the max limit to 5 could have a benefit. Wardens would have to manage cells more accurately, so there'd be less "DURR WHAT'S THIS GUY IN FOR I GUESS I'D BETTER PUT HIM BACK IN FOR 10 MORE MINUTES", but I'm loathe to add more crap atop the heap that Sec currently has to deal with.

Cheridan wrote:If I had to guess what brig time was the most common, I would guess that it's 10 minutes. I feel like if we raise the minimum to 15 or 20 or whatever, that'll be the new most common. If we could trust people to set reasonable brig times, then a limit wouldn't be needed at all.

Lowering the max limit to 5 could have a benefit. Wardens would have to manage cells more accurately, so there'd be less "DURR WHAT'S THIS GUY IN FOR I GUESS I'D BETTER PUT HIM BACK IN FOR 10 MORE MINUTES", but I'm loathe to add more crap atop the heap that Sec currently has to deal with.

Citation very much needed. I have very rarely handed out a 10-minute sentence and rarely have I ever seen one in use. Most of the serial 10-minute brig times, if anything, are for people who are either trying to break out or who have enough repeat offenses/tiding that they'd be better off in perma or on the gulag.

I don't see how you would come to think 10 minutes was the dominant sentence unless you were waltzing into multiple offenses with great regularity.

Edit: Oh wait you are an administrator, guess people adminhelp less about sub 10 minute sentences.

I'm going to preface this with "I don't tend to run into security unless I'm playing SO." With that said, I don't think I've seen a single 10m brig stay that didn't do something to deserve it without being perma-able. Repeated breakouts, attempted breakouts, assaulting the SO putting them in the cell, etc.

Also, why are we looking at punishing an already mechanically obnoxious job? Managing brig times is already a pain in the ass, and some of the proscribed sentences for most offenses are already laughably short. In fact, on a strict spesslaw reading, the only way to even get a 10m sentence is to attack two officers or get caught breaking into the armory or something. Punishments are meant to dissuade wrongdoing. Nobody is going to stop breaking into places or other similar behavior just because they were made to sit out for 3 minutes (about the time it takes to get them back to the brig and MAYBE search their belongings.

In my experience 10 minutes sentences are typically reserved for:

• People who just will not stop being shit (AKA: Greytiders, idiots)
• A repeat offender, not bad enough for a perma sentence however.
• Someone who committed a permeable sentence, but is granted leniency and is instead given a 10 minute sentence
• When Sec and/or the arresting officer is being overwhelmed, thus a 10 minute sentence is given just to get that person out of the way for the time being

10 minutes is fine as is.

If you throw some griffon in for 10 minutes I think that's usually the best way to get your point across without doing something too drastic and/or time wasting.

Anyone who ought to be locked up for longer than 10 minutes probably should be thrown in perma or sent to the gulag.

problem with that is that when you perma anyone, even if it's legit, you get a BWOINK

bandit wrote:problem with that is that when you perma anyone, even if it's legit, you get a BWOINK

On one hand, its good that security is held to a "higher standard" than others as their position hinges around removing players from the round. On the other hand, it does seem that between the pressures OOC from admins and IC from "OMG SHITCURITY LITERALLY HITLER OMG I INNOCENT" types seem to add up to a lot more burden than single players should really have to put up with.

Incomptinence wrote:I don't see how you would come to think 10 minutes was the dominant sentence unless you were waltzing into multiple offenses with great regularity.

Edit: Oh wait you are an administrator, guess people adminhelp less about sub 10 minute sentences.

That's very true. It could just be my observer bias, remembering the 10 minute timers more vividly, etc. Once we get stat tracking back up again it'd be good to add tracking to brig timers, as well as gulag use.

bandit wrote:problem with that is that when you perma anyone, even if it's legit, you get a BWOINK

Many times people forget that throwing someone in the permabrig is roughly on par with just killing them. The other day a warden threw the QM in perma because he refused to buy fancy sec clothes... I think it's a good thing that admins keep a close eye on permabrigging as it can really ruin someone's round when done unjustly. If the prisoner honestly belongs in there, then there's no problem.

You can perma people screaming things like "sec rogue" or "shitcurity" during an arrest. It's in the rules.
I'd like to see a higher brig time cap. Something like 20 minutes.

Cheridan wrote:The other day a warden threw the QM in perma because he refused to buy fancy sec clothes.

This didn't happen, it was a mistake of miscommunication between the detective and the warden, they checked some prints of a murder weapon and permabrigged him for that, it wasn't related at all with the clothes problems that they had previously.

If sentences above 10 minutes impact a player's round enjoyment as much as being killed or permabrigged do, then how about increasing the cap on the timer, but having it notify the admins whenever the timer is bumped above 10 minutes?

Putting in game restrictions on this sort of thing is really redundant. As a warden player, I can't remember the last time I've given someone 10 minutes. It's usually for a repeat offender, who is going out of their way to cause shit, even in their cell. If you reduced the max time, I'm just going to chuck people into the gulag if I cant put them in a cell long enough. And I would day my most common sentence length is 3 minutes. 7 is usually the highest, for serious assault or other faggotry, gulag for shitters. Gulag is great in the serious shitters won't try mine, so they essentially perma themselves, while people that are not shitters, are far more likely to earn their freedom. Also is there a way to store people's shit, if you're running the gulag automated?

Over 10 minutes is basically as good as gulag, nobodies going to wait it out. That's basically an Icky ooky ban.
For those that don't set over 10 minutes then this won't affect you but this will prevent grossly unfair times.

LdShade wrote:Over 10 minutes is basically as good as gulag, nobodies going to wait it out. That's basically an Icky ooky ban.
For those that don't set over 10 minutes then this won't affect you but this will prevent grossly unfair times.

That's a bit vague. "Grossly unfair" isn't even really contextually defined here.

Anyone needing any more than 10 minutes honestly deserves perma.

mrpain wrote:Anyone needing any more than 10 minutes honestly deserves perma.

I think we can all agree with that. However the issue at hand is should that 10 minute "fuck it off to perma for you" line be raised or lowered or stay the same?

I think 10 minutes is fine, or possibly increased to 15 minutes for those really jerky greytidey repeat offenders who don't really deserve perma but need a lot of time. But then again, the gulag is a better option anyways so I think the situation right now is fine and requires no change.

QuartzCrystal wrote:Anyone who ought to be locked up for longer than 10 minutes probably should be thrown in perma or sent to the gulag.

^ ^ ^

Here's some abbreviated Space Law - Basically, sentences are None/3/5/7/Capital. If you have to consult the book, don't. The Book is a fun-hating clusterfuck, and is blank in-character for a reason.

Nuisance (ex. Vandalism) - Flash/Pepperspray, toss away. No brig time, no search. Consider using *custom to do wristslaps.
Petty crime (ex. Breaking window) - Stuncuff, 3m brig, search. Remove items involved in crime. Lock, but do not confiscate gloves, tools, weapons, unless used in crime.
Medium crime (ex. Assault w/ weapon, thievery) - As above, but with 5m brig. Remove items involved in crime. Lock, but do not confiscate gloves, tools, weapons, unless used in crime.
High crime (ex. Grand theft, Murderous intent) - 7m brigtime, orange jumpsuit, legcuffs. Remove all items not directly related to the prisoner's job.

Special cases:
Repeat offenses: Bump severity/punishment up one step, tracking implant
Severe noncompliance (ex. radio abuse, saxing): Legcuff/Remove radio, bump severity up one step
Co-operation: Bump severity down one step. If Capital, try and keep them in the round
Antag status: ggnore, you fucked up. If he's not being a dick, offer borging or try to keep them in the round. If not, perma he
Immediate re-offense (eg. attacking security upon release, disarmspam within cell): Immediate round removal. Absolutely no mercy; Don't just stretch charges, fabricate them.


Ten minutes is plenty of time if you're not being a tool and stacking timers. If you have to go past ten minutes, they're almost certainly valid for perma.

Psyentific wrote: Nuisance (ex. Vandalism) - Flash/Pepperspray, toss away. No brig time, no search. Consider using *custom to do wristslaps.

Psyentific wrote:The Book is a fun-hating clusterfuck, and is blank in-character for a reason.

Because nobody felt like fixing the urls after the move?

cedarbridge wrote:

Psyentific wrote:The Book is a fun-hating clusterfuck, and is blank in-character for a reason.

Because nobody felt like fixing the urls after the move?

Can someone head onto the server and check one of the other books or something, preferably one that's supposed to describe how to do thing like the cyborg one? I'd honestly do it myself, but it's getting somewhat late here and I don't really want to commit to a full round right now.

cedarbridge wrote:

Psyentific wrote:The Book is a fun-hating clusterfuck, and is blank in-character for a reason.

Because nobody felt like fixing the urls after the move?

Because Space Law is a suggestion, not the end-all be-all of Security.

Book urls are totally fine, they use the same urls that buttons in the top right use and those are fine. I tried to fix books, but I couldn't understand why they don't work. They absolutely should work as far as I'm concerned.

And yeah, none of the books that use pages from wiki work, only those that are hardcoded.

15m please