/tg/Station 13

15:02 Miauw somebody should make a feedback thread and tell me the results
15:02 Miauw because i dont go to the feedback forum anymore

This PR, Go: https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/4919

tl;dr: Stealth items are slightly cheaper, Weapons are slightly more expensive
(also the price of everything has been doubled and your TC has been doubled but this is only a formatting change)

Because nothing is listed, here is a list of everything that is changed

-----------------------

Default TC's increased to 20, all items adjusted to compensate.

Revolver - 13 (From 6): Price Increased
Sketchin - 9 (From 5): Price Decreased
C20r SMG - 14 (From 7): Price Same
L6 Machinegun - 40 (From 20): Price Same
Ebow - 12 (From 5): Price Increased
Flamethrower - 11 (From 6): Price Decreased
Esword - 8 (From 4): Price Same

EMP Kit - 5 (From 3): Price Decreased
Minibomb - 6 (From 3): Price Same
Viscerator Grenade - 8 (From 4): Price Same
Chemsprayer - 20 (From 10): Price Same

Syndi Gygax - 90 (From 45): Price Same
Syndi Mauler - 140 (From 70): Price Same
Syndiborg - 50 (From 25): Price Same

Revolver Ammo - 4 (From 2): Price Same
SMG Ammo - 2 (From 1): Price Same
Pistol Ammo - 1 (No Change)
L6 Ammo - 12 (From 6): Price Same

Parapen - 4 (From 2): Price Same
Soap - 6 (From 3): Price Same
Suppressor - 3 (From 2): Price Decrease
Chameleon Jumpsuit - 4 (From 3): Price Decrease
Chameleon Stamp - 1 (No Change)
No-Slip Shoes - 4 (From 2): Price Same
Agent ID Card - 3 (From 2): Price Decrease
Voice Changer - 5 (From 4): Price Decrease
Chameleon-Projector - 7 (From 4): Price Decrease
Camera Bug - 2 (No Change)

Emag - 6 (From 3): Price Same
Toolbox - 1 (No Change)
Ops Medical Kit - 9 (From 5): Price Decrease
Space Suit - 5 (From 3): Price Decrease
Thermals - 6 (From 3): Price Same
Binary Key - 6 (From 3): Price Same
AI Detector - 1 (No Change)
Hacked AI Module - 14 (From 7): Price Same
C4 - 1 (No Change)
Powersink - 10 (From 5): Price Same
Sing Beacon - 14 (From 7): Price Same
Bomb - 11 (From 6): Price Decrease
Rad Laser - 6 (From 4): Price Decrease
Detonator - 3 (From 1): Price Increase
Teleport Board - 40 (From 20): Price Same
Energy Shield - 16 (From 8): Price Same

Freedom Implant - 5 (From 3): Price Decrease
Uplink Implant - 20 (From 10): Price Same
Adrenal Implant - 8 (From 4): Price Same

Syndicate Bundle - 20 (From 10): Price Same
Syndicate Playing Cards - 1 (No Change)
Balloon - 20 (From 10): Price Same

Other than making items that nobody seriously used outside of bundles .5-1 (effective) TC cheaper and making the revolver more expensive, I don't really see anything serious this accomplishes in terms of "rebalance"

cedarbridge wrote:Other than making items that nobody seriously used outside of bundles .5-1 (effective) TC cheaper and making the revolver more expensive, I don't really see anything serious this accomplishes in terms of "rebalance"

that's

the point??

Cheridan wrote:

cedarbridge wrote:Other than making items that nobody seriously used outside of bundles .5-1 (effective) TC cheaper and making the revolver more expensive, I don't really see anything serious this accomplishes in terms of "rebalance"

that's

the point??

So some numbers moved with no real indication that anyone would or will go for these items to save that extra TC (for soap I guess.) I'm still not seeing a bigger picture here.

cedarbridge wrote:So some numbers moved with no real indication that anyone would or will go for these items to save that extra TC (for soap I guess.) I'm still not seeing a bigger picture here.

What kind of indication are you looking for?

Arete wrote:

cedarbridge wrote:So some numbers moved with no real indication that anyone would or will go for these items to save that extra TC (for soap I guess.) I'm still not seeing a bigger picture here.

What kind of indication are you looking for?

Purpose -> Action -> Result

Its not me that should be answering what was expected. If the purpose or aim was to encourage more diverse trator items, I'd like to know how its expected that this will accomplish it. As I've already mentioned. The math only supports a .5-1TC swing. That's one whole bar of soap. So if the objective was "encourage more soap purchases" we've arrived. If not, I'd like to know what was expected before I can compare what occurs to what was expected. As is, there's nothing to evaluate.

Paves the way for more aggressive future TC balancing though I guess.

My only real complaint is that the rebalance would devalue the value of a Telecrystal.

But that aside, the rebalance does allow for far better fine tuning of item prices in the future.

So using decimals rather than halving the value of a TC was out of the question because..?

Reimoo wrote:So using decimals rather than halving the value of a TC was out of the question because..?

More than likely, TCs are integers and it was probably easier to just double all TC values instead of whatever it would take to change them to floats or something else that can handle decimals. Keeping thing to whole numbers also makes it look cleaner and slightly less confusing.

The stechkin/suppressor combo is very cost effect with this rebalance. Did anyone ever port the NT autolathe change, where you could print out various ammo types when hacked, not just .357? If not, someone should.
Nice to see things like the camera bug (which is genuinely useful, for sneaky antags) get cheaper. Sam with agent ID/voice changer.

Personally I would use this opportunity to up emag cost a little (seriously it's better value for money then anything by far) , but I'm sure some people would complain.
Also you just know someone is going to get 20 c4, print out loads of signallers, and just leave them around for retards to pickup, and blow them all up. Actually, 18 c4 and a camera bug for even more SNEAKY.

Konork wrote:

Reimoo wrote:So using decimals rather than halving the value of a TC was out of the question because..?

More than likely, TCs are integers and it was probably easier to just double all TC values instead of whatever it would take to change them to floats or something else that can handle decimals. Keeping thing to whole numbers also makes it look cleaner and slightly less confusing.

It was literally just to avoid "You have 2.5 telecystals" "wat"

lumipharon wrote:Personally I would use this opportunity to up emag cost a little (seriously it's better value for money then anything by far) , but I'm sure some people would complain.

Well, it has a downside of breaking stuff forever, but it's usually not an issue. I agree that making it cost 7 should be done. It's just a universally good item.

Uplink implant does have 10 TC now, right?

Lo6a4evskiy wrote:

lumipharon wrote:Personally I would use this opportunity to up emag cost a little (seriously it's better value for money then anything by far) , but I'm sure some people would complain.

Well, it has a downside of breaking stuff forever, but it's usually not an issue. I agree that making it cost 7 should be done. It's just a universally good item.

Uplink implant does have 10 TC now, right?

emags are already priced into a corner. As it is now, without rolling a bundle as an AI subverting traitor, I can buy an AI module and either an emag or a binary key. I can't do both without the bundle and either pairing uses all 10 of my TC. Adjusting prices to swing the emag out of range for that literally gives LESS traitor options and not more. All while taking out a combo already enshrined in a bundle

Lo6a4evskiy wrote:

lumipharon wrote:Personally I would use this opportunity to up emag cost a little (seriously it's better value for money then anything by far) , but I'm sure some people would complain.

Well, it has a downside of breaking stuff forever, but it's usually not an issue. I agree that making it cost 7 should be done. It's just a universally good item.

Uplink implant does have 10 TC now, right?

Yeah, Uplink implant was upped to 10 TC.

The emag cost is just fucking fine.

cedarbridge wrote:emags are already priced into a corner. As it is now, without rolling a bundle as an AI subverting traitor, I can buy an AI module and either an emag or a binary key. I can't do both without the bundle and either pairing uses all 10 of my TC. Adjusting prices to swing the emag out of range for that literally gives LESS traitor options and not more. All while taking out a combo already enshrined in a bundle

Yeah, okay, you have a point.

Better solution would be to split emag's 50 BILLION DIFFERENT FUNCTIONS into more then one item, as has been suggested at various points in time.

Nah, but some of them need rework so they actually break stuff. Like, they don't break barriers or buttons.

Actually, splitting the emag up into two items wouldn't be such a bad idea. We could add even more functionality without having to pack it all in a single OP item.

For example, one device that breaks things (brute force things open at the expense of breaking them, e.g. force open doors, depower barriers, remove access restrictions on consoles, just be all around pseudo all access)

...and one device that hacks things (enable malicious settings on things, e.g. set the holodeck on fire, hack APCS to shock every electronic in the room, set air alarms to panic syphon, subvert borgs/bots, etc)

Reimoo wrote:Actually, splitting the emag up into two items wouldn't be such a bad idea. We could add even more functionality without having to pack it all in a single OP item.

For example, one device that breaks things (brute force things open at the expense of breaking them, e.g. force open doors, depower barriers, remove access restrictions on consoles, just be all around pseudo all access)

...and one device that hacks things (enable malicious settings on things, e.g. set the holodeck on fire, hack APCS to shock every electronic in the room, set air alarms to panic syphon, subvert borgs/bots, etc)

Except the breaking functionality and the hacking functionality are often one-in-the-same. To hack a borg without an ID requires emagging their cover lock. Then emagging their systems after crowbaring them open.

Let's not split the emag, or reprice it. Emag has to be one of the traitor items that is not broken.

Emag is broken though, it can interact with basically anything on the station and is a win button for escape alone.

Escape alone traitors barely win though. We aren't obliged to make it almost impossible.

paprika wrote:Emag is broken though, it can interact with basically anything on the station and is a win button for escape alone.

You know, except for the inability of an emag to keep other people off the shuttle while you board it. Hardly a win button.

cedarbridge wrote:

paprika wrote:Emag is broken though, it can interact with basically anything on the station and is a win button for escape alone.

You know, except for the inability of an emag to keep other people off the shuttle while you board it. Hardly a win button.

Actually, the surest way to prevent people from boarding is to stealthbolt the Escape airlocks, then emag them. Board the shuttle from space and emag the console for an early launch. Works everytime for me.

If it wasn't for the emag-exclusive functions, I'd take a balloon over an emag almost all the time. To rephrase that, if I could use a multitool and some hacking to do typically emag-only things (Like the shuttle console), I'd be doing escape alone balloon runs 24/7/365

I'd like to see more reductions on underused equipment.

I stopped playing because traitor (and DA/Traitorling) made up the vast majority of games and there would be almost no variety in these games.

I'd like to see more traitor gadgets in the bargain bin so I actually have to think about voice changers, agent ID cards, camera hackers, and chameleon projectors once in a while, it would add more variety to rounds and encourage traitors not to go for the same goddamn items we've been seeing for years.

Oldman Robustin wrote:I stopped playing

we did it guys

Oldman Robustin wrote:I stopped playing

Reduce TC costs for subtle traitor items. Reduce Freedom Implant to 1? 2?

Incomptinence wrote:Escape alone traitors barely win though. We aren't obliged to make it almost impossible.

Well it's not like objectives are all equal in difficulty. I doubt that the idea behind escape alone was "block airlocks and emag shuttle" though.

Lo6a4evskiy wrote:

Incomptinence wrote:Escape alone traitors barely win though. We aren't obliged to make it almost impossible.

Well it's not like objectives are all equal in difficulty. I doubt that the idea behind escape alone was "block airlocks and emag shuttle" though.

Pros subvert an engieborg and have it wall off the escape hallway.

Pros vent escape to space and up the airpressure in the hallways to space everyone

callanrockslol wrote:Pros vent escape to space and up the airpressure in the hallways to space everyone

That only works in ZAScode

So what determines the rebalance? Are things balanced based on coder preferences or are they based on numbers?

Such as % used and % winrate with said items?

Psyentific wrote:

callanrockslol wrote:Pros vent escape to space and up the airpressure in the hallways to space everyone

That only works in ZAScode

After fucking around I realised that they fixed the glitch you could use to do this...

Oldman Robustin wrote:I'd like to see more reductions on underused equipment.

I stopped playing because traitor (and DA/Traitorling) made up the vast majority of games and there would be almost no variety in these games.

I'd like to see more traitor gadgets in the bargain bin so I actually have to think about voice changers, agent ID cards, camera hackers, and chameleon projectors once in a while, it would add more variety to rounds and encourage traitors not to go for the same goddamn items we've been seeing for years.

idk man you suggest new stuff to add to traitor.
it's hard to come up with stuff and when we DO add new stuff it's almost never used.

Miauw wrote: idk man you suggest new stuff to add to traitor.
it's hard to come up with stuff and when we DO add new stuff it's almost never used.

Because emag stronk. Or, rather, that the emag has numerous functions that can't be replicated in any other way. Because there is no single better melee weapon than the e-sword - 40 damage, guaranteed knockdown, with the added bonus that it deflects taser shots. Because the e-bow is a guaranteed stun with regenerating ammo that fits in your pocket.

Items like camera bugs, AI detector, voice changer? Cham. proj, cham. jumpsuit? All situational.
The three E's of traitordom are best-in-class and/or universally applicable; No reason not to take it, never not useful.

Esword deals 20 damage and has about a 60% chance to knock someone down unless they are wearing a helmet. Also the deflection is around 50/50, you only get 100% deflection if your using duel-eswords.

But everything else Psy said is true, when you have a small group of items that have great utility and no real drawbacks, there is little reason to use anything else that is more situational.

So split the emag into two items and nerf ebows. Leave eswords as they are because frankly there's no good way to nerf it because a shitty 100% stun weapon > an excellent melee weapon in almost any scenario

Make up for the nerfs by adding in more items, problem solved. But it is never that easy.

Splitting the emag into two items is an interesting idea.. Remove the emag's ability to open doors and introduce a new item that lets you do one of two things: instantly open a door, breaking it in the process (like the current emag), or take some time to hack the door and take full control of it (think bay's hacking tool, or a fancier pAI brute force hack).

I'd keep the emag for access subverting, since that makes the most sense. And then add the hacking functionality to the AI detector.

Splitting the emag is a long overdue change. A specific door jack item would still be extremely useful for traitors (probably would need to unlock lockers and all that jazz as well, or split it even more, into cheaper things).

lumipharon wrote:Splitting the emag is a long overdue change. A specific door jack item would still be extremely useful for traitors (probably would need to unlock lockers and all that jazz as well, or split it even more, into cheaper things).

well yeah that'd just remain an emag since it's what it was orignally supposed to be.
like one of those cracker things you see in movies where it randomly enters numbers and then they stop changing one by one.

So, split the Emag's utility function (Holodeck, Comms console, borgs/robots) from it's access subverting (Doors, APCs, buttons) function? That's a novel way to solve the problem. Current emag is, what, 6TC? Give the situational one 2TC and the doorcracker 4TC?

Psyentific wrote:So, split the Emag's utility function (Holodeck, Comms console, borgs/robots) from it's access subverting (Doors, APCs, buttons) function? That's a novel way to solve the problem. Current emag is, what, 6TC? Give the situational one 2TC and the doorcracker 4TC?

Then the utility item would still need to be able to crack open borg locks because fuck if you think I'm going to juggle a flash, crowbar, hacking tool and unlocking tool to emag a borg.

E-sword is actually 30 damage and has been that way for a long time. Sheesh this is almost as bad as the guy making syndiborgs thinking eswords three hit crit (and giving the sword 5 times the charge input of a frickin laser gun).