remove tableclimbing

bandit · Post by **bandit** » Mon Sep 22, 2014 9:52 pm #30246

REMOVE TABLECLIMBING remove tableclimbing

For those who don't know, you can now drag your sprite onto tables, including r-tables, to climb them. This is the worst change in quite some time. All it does is enable breaking in and the gray tide. Once-secure areas are now just stupid. I know breakins were possible before, but it at least required some effort and time to acquire tools and/or another willing participant.

Particularly choice: Tableclimbing doesn't respect shutters. You can break in through shutters. !!FUN!!

ThatSlyFox · Post by **ThatSlyFox** » Mon Sep 22, 2014 9:57 pm #30248

The shutters thing needs to be fixed but then again you can just crush them over and over. Table climbing is fine though other than that. Embrace the new feature!

cedarbridge · Post by **cedarbridge** » Mon Sep 22, 2014 10:53 pm #30265

As ~realistic~ as it is for my spessman to not be confounded by complex things like tables, I have to agree. This implmentation was just featurizing something previously done with an exploit. I'd argue that even the exploit was more balanced because it required setup and know-how.

Cipher3 · Post by **Cipher3** » Mon Sep 22, 2014 11:19 pm #30270

It's retarded that you'd be stopped dead by a three-foot table though, and I've always hated it.

Incomptinence · Tue Sep 23, 2014 12:58 am

I hate realism it must burn.

Post by **oranges** » Tue Sep 23, 2014 2:50 am #30297

All of the secure areas that are guarded by tables have a shutter or windoor (except the security pod at the arrival shuttle). Once the density bug is fixed then they will still be secure.

kosmos · Post by **kosmos** » Tue Sep 23, 2014 8:42 am #30341

It's cool that the game gets new features, but this feature is just plain unnecessary for anything other than graytiding.

Post by **oranges** » Tue Sep 23, 2014 10:27 am #30353

We spent quite a bit of time discussing it on the PR, but as I said earlier, this doesn't allow access to any secure areas.

Certainly the Barman and Chef might have to deal with a few people trying it, but again, someone can deconstruct the table with a welder and a wrench anyway, so they end up in the same position.

Another thing to take note of is that because this has just been added, expect that lots of people will be trying it out, so that will count for increased instances of people doing it.

Alex Crimson · Tue Sep 23, 2014 12:04 pm

Deconstructing a reinforced table is a much bigger task than just taking a few seconds to climb over it. Nobody is gonna go through the effort to get a welder, wrench, welding mask, and then go decon the table just to get inside the kitchen. Unless they had a real reason to do so. Now anyone can get in with ease whenever they want. If i ever play as a Chef, im going to just kill and gib anyone who tries to climb onto my kitchen counter.

Table climbing is fine. But adding table climbing without redesigning areas of the map that can be broken into with table climbing is dumb. Even if its low security areas like the kitchen.

Lo6a4evskiy · Post by **Lo6a4evskiy** » Tue Sep 23, 2014 2:22 pm #30370

Why did it even get merged

Barman is now gonna be a hell of a job.

What was reasoning behind this except retarded unnecessary realism that nobody non-retarded ever asks for.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Tue Sep 23, 2014 2:35 pm #30371

The reasoning was that because doing the ability to already table yourself was already in the game as exploit (Placing a table beneath yourself, then move to the other table) that it was better to make it a actual feature instead.

Take that for what you will.

cedarbridge · Post by **cedarbridge** » Tue Sep 23, 2014 3:56 pm #30385

oranges wrote:We spent quite a bit of time discussing it on the PR, but as I said earlier, this doesn't allow access to any secure areas.

Except the security checkpoint which is now instantly broken into/looted without fail. No tools required.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Tue Sep 23, 2014 4:04 pm #30388

The only way to secure the arrivals checkpoint now would be a windoor, and I know people will complain about that.

Alex Crimson · Post by **Alex Crimson** » Tue Sep 23, 2014 4:32 pm #30395

You could just remove table climbing, or the ability to climb reinforced tables.

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Tue Sep 23, 2014 4:54 pm #30401

Just put windoors in the places that were already vulnerable.

Alex Crimson · Post by **Alex Crimson** » Tue Sep 23, 2014 4:55 pm #30402

That would be a lot of windoors...

QuartzCrystal · Tue Sep 23, 2014 4:56 pm

You need bar access to get booze now anyways, so climbing the table isn't going to do you much good now anyways.

Ikarrus · Post by **Ikarrus** » Tue Sep 23, 2014 5:03 pm #30407

I'm pretty sure someone took that lock out.

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Tue Sep 23, 2014 5:06 pm #30408

Alex Crimson wrote:That would be a lot of windoors...

Not really.

Killerz104 · Post by **Killerz104** » Tue Sep 23, 2014 8:57 pm #30439

QuartzCrystal wrote:You need bar access to get booze now anyways, so climbing the table isn't going to do you much good now anyways.

Most bartenders I have seen keep bottles out so they can get to them quicker.

Even if it doesn't make sense in terms of ~realism~, blocking the ability to climb over reinforced tables would solve the issue of people only going to the kitchen to steal knives and fucking off with them or people breaking into the bar constantly because FUNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN.

Also you can't make fun little trade posts/stores. :c

ThatSlyFox · Post by **ThatSlyFox** » Tue Sep 23, 2014 9:47 pm #30460

I don't really see people breaking into the kitchen or bar before this was added and why would they? Why all of a sudden would they do it now that it is easier? Booze machine is id locked and so is that machine the chef uses. Maybe you guys can find some real reasons this shouldn't be a thing.

cedarbridge · Post by **cedarbridge** » Tue Sep 23, 2014 9:53 pm #30464

ThatSlyFox wrote:I don't really see people breaking into the kitchen or bar before this was added and why would they? Why all of a sudden would they do it now that it is easier? Booze machine is id locked and so is that machine the chef uses. Maybe you guys can find some real reasons this shouldn't be a thing.

Booze machine is not ID locked.

ThatSlyFox · Post by **ThatSlyFox** » Tue Sep 23, 2014 10:01 pm #30466

cedarbridge wrote:
ThatSlyFox wrote:I don't really see people breaking into the kitchen or bar before this was added and why would they? Why all of a sudden would they do it now that it is easier? Booze machine is id locked and so is that machine the chef uses. Maybe you guys can find some real reasons this shouldn't be a thing.
Booze machine is not ID locked.

Last I checked it was and you had to hack it to remove the lock.

bandit · Post by **bandit** » Tue Sep 23, 2014 10:10 pm #30471

Booze machine is in fact ID locked but I'm more worried about people breaking in for bottles to set people on fire with or the barkeep's gun.

Cipher3 · Post by **Cipher3** » Tue Sep 23, 2014 10:38 pm #30483

Barkeep's gun is backroom by default. If I was gonna steal it I'd go in from maintenance.

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Tue Sep 23, 2014 10:44 pm #30486

Borgs can tableclimb.

Cipher3 · Post by **Cipher3** » Tue Sep 23, 2014 10:45 pm #30487

Saegrimr wrote:Borgs can tableclimb.

Okay, now that's not even realism. Fix that along with the shutters glitch.

cedarbridge · Post by **cedarbridge** » Tue Sep 23, 2014 11:35 pm #30501

ThatSlyFox wrote:
cedarbridge wrote:
ThatSlyFox wrote:I don't really see people breaking into the kitchen or bar before this was added and why would they? Why all of a sudden would they do it now that it is easier? Booze machine is id locked and so is that machine the chef uses. Maybe you guys can find some real reasons this shouldn't be a thing.
Booze machine is not ID locked.
Last I checked it was and you had to hack it to remove the lock.

https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/4674
We were both wrong. It hasn't been merged yet.

Reimoo · Post by **Reimoo** » Wed Sep 24, 2014 3:24 pm #30625

The chef has a knife a rolling pin with a very high KO chance, the bartender has a shotgun and instastun bottles, and the HoP has a windooor and shutters. If these jobs want to prevent some shitler from breaking in they already have the means to do so. The only thing that needs to be changed is a windoor added to the security arrivals office.

If it's still that much of an issue, someone suggested earlier that disarming someone climbing on a table pushes them off.

Honestly, easy fix, guys.

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Wed Sep 24, 2014 4:32 pm #30640

If you assault the kitchen while there is a chef on board, chef can turn you into soylent green.

Y/Y?

bandit · Post by **bandit** » Wed Sep 24, 2014 4:41 pm #30644

Scott wrote:If you assault the kitchen while there is a chef on board, chef can turn you into soylent green.

Y/Y?

BWOINK!

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Wed Sep 24, 2014 4:43 pm #30645

With great power comes great responsibility. And risk.

cedarbridge · Post by **cedarbridge** » Wed Sep 24, 2014 7:08 pm #30672

bandit wrote:
Scott wrote:If you assault the kitchen while there is a chef on board, chef can turn you into soylent green.

Y/Y?
BWOINK!

There's not generally as much leeway for the chef as there is for say, a roboticist. The "breaking in is volunteering to be borged" policy at least keeps the shitler in the round. Which really makes me wonder. Why do we have policies that protect people from round-removing retribution in cases where they're clearly acting detrimentally to other players? Breaking in and busting up a workplace fnr is shit and needs to either get more OOC attention or just let the IC punishment slide naturally. (The Chef can gib the jerk for breaking in but still has to deal with sec for the killing. etc)

Alex Crimson · Post by **Alex Crimson** » Wed Sep 24, 2014 7:18 pm #30678

Any Bartender or Chef that killed a person table climbing into their workplace would get a swift ban. No matter what a single admins says. Even if it were allowed, the chances of you getting to the person before they break in is rather random. It doesnt take long to climb a table, and if they manage to knock you down first, then you are the one who gets taken out of the round, even though you didnt do anything but defend yourself from shitters.

Its a stupid mechanic that was merged without enough consideration of the jobs it affects. Screw realism, it should be removed.

Post by **oranges** » Wed Sep 24, 2014 10:47 pm #30711

You are really butt blasted over this, They have a long stun when they arrive on the table top, so long that the table construction underneath yourself is still the superior way to climb over tables.

Lets be clear here, there were already 2 (Thats right 2) ways to get past tables, Tables have not and will never be a system for securing an area.

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Wed Sep 24, 2014 11:15 pm #30717

oranges wrote:Tables have not and will never be a system for securing an area.

Two-tile wide windoors for chef when?

Alex Crimson · Wed Sep 24, 2014 11:21 pm

Nobody ever used either of those 2 ways because they required a certain amount of effort. Now anyone can do it whenever they want. I still fail to see how this is a good change. The stun isnt that long. They can still climb over the table before you notice and stop them if you are not paying attention, which you really shouldnt need to.

Tables did secure the area. How many times have you seen random people getting into the kitchen or bar? Nobody cares enough to deconstruct a table or gather parts to "exploit" some bug. Hell, at round start im always seeing people go for the Flash at arrivals Sec checkpoint. Its a free Flash, who wouldnt grab it? Now you can just hop over the table everyone does it.

Post by **oranges** » Thu Sep 25, 2014 12:41 am #30740

Alex Crimson wrote:Nobody ever used either of those 2 ways because they required a certain amount of effort

Deconstructing a reinforced table requires a wrench, a welder and 10-15 seconds.
Deconstructing a table requires a wrench and then you can reconstruct it anywhere there is other tables to climb onto them.
The amount of effort required is very very low bar, so low that I don't think that effort being required can really be used as argument against this.

The reason people didn't do it is because there is nowhere worth breaking into that can't already be done by more efficient methods (door hacks).

Saegrimr wrote: Two-tile wide windoors for chef when?

Neither the bar nor the kitchen are secure areas, so it's up to IC policing to keep those areas free of invaders.

Alex Crimson wrote:Hell, at round start im always seeing people go for the Flash at arrivals Sec checkpoint.

Pro tip, I used to deconstruct the tables into that checkpoint every round for that flash.

Raven776 · Post by **Raven776** » Thu Sep 25, 2014 1:03 am #30744

How can you get into the kitchen/bar area?

Tabling someone else, then they table you, or just have them table you to start with.
Breaking the windoor/hacking the doors to get in. If it's the windoor, GOOD LUCK getting that shit fixed.
Deconstructing tables.
Get yourself mailed there by disposals.
Emag
Access
Ask "Can I be the chef/bartender" to the HoP.
Ask "Can I be a botanist and get bar and kitchen access too?" to the HoP. Never enough botanists, and he likely doesn't give a fuck about that access anyways.
Weld down a wall.
WELD DOWN ALL THE WALLS.
Murder the chef/bartender.

And what do you remove when you add tableclimbing?

You ever get that really low feeling in your stomach when there's no active AI or cyborgs and you're watching everyone get MURDERED AS FUCK in the kitchen, so you quickly demand the nearest assistant table you? You no longer have to deal with that bullshit. Tase the offender and the person getting assaulted (because they're going to fucking kill the person attacking them), tableclimb, tase again, go to them, tase them again (because shortened tasing time), and then cuff them both. Tase them again for good measure.

Ever get flushed down disposals as anything that isn't an assistant? Well now you can actually escape that hellhole of a disposals room without begging the AI, getting laughed at by cargo, or flushing yourself into maint to make the problem much, much worse.

What does it (table climbing) add? Possible FUN.
What does it take away? A transparent walltype that did not block lasers, tasers, or grenades. RIP.

Lo6a4evskiy · Post by **Lo6a4evskiy** » Thu Sep 25, 2014 5:58 am #30814

oranges wrote:Deconstructing a reinforced table requires a wrench, a welder and 10-15 seconds.
Deconstructing a table requires a wrench and then you can reconstruct it anywhere there is other tables to climb onto them.
The amount of effort required is very very low bar, so low that I don't think that effort being required can really be used as argument against this.

If table climbing takes 15 seconds, burns your eyes, requires special equipment and welding fuel, then you're totally right.

Oh wait.

And yeah, all "outside" tables are reinforced.

Like, just stop. Just stop suggesting that adding a way that makes it clearly EASIER to get over tables for absolutely EVERYBODY means nothing because there were other ways that require a lot more time and/or special equipment.

The issue is that any fucking greyshirt or mime, without any tools or anything to prepare, can just go and scream RUSH BARMAN and everyone is climbing tables to fuck with him.

Psyentific · Post by **Psyentific** » Thu Sep 25, 2014 6:00 am #30815

Climbing tables is awful, awful pro-tide code. At least make it so you can't climb reinforced tables.

Post by **oranges** » Thu Sep 25, 2014 7:37 am #30850

Lo6a4evskiy wrote: Like, just stop. Just stop suggesting that adding a way that makes it clearly EASIER to get over tables for absolutely EVERYBODY means nothing because there were other ways that require a lot more time and/or special equipment.

I disagree with your central thesis that welding equipment and tools are in some way special equipment - these are tools that are in good supply around the station, are accessible to all levels of job and are not seen as controlled by the crew, meaning it's easy to get more from the cargo technicians.

The stun for climbing tables is intended as far as I know to ensure that the delay is at least in line with deconstructing standard tables, as an aside, constructing a table under yourself to get up on to a set of tables is about the same amount of time, so the speed of access into these areas has not changed (this is my opinion, as I haven't reviewed the core code times).

More importantly, the areas of importance that have table access, all have windoors and or privacy shutters, these are much more effective at preventing people from entering those locations.

It might be inconvenient for the bartender and the chef to have their personal space invaded, but it's not going to affect the functioning of the round as a whole. It might be a slight annoyance for the bartender and the chef, but generally I find that if the bartender simply calls for security and doesn't escalate the situation or overreact then the situation will be resolved cleanly.

In many of those cases it is probably people looking to antagonise the chef or bartender into a fight, so that they can validly escalate. I believe that the bartender and the chef should not treat those locations as their special snowflake secure hideaways as this was never the intent of these areas. They both have backrooms that they can move to that are secured via doors and walls and these locations are unaffected by the changes.

Finally I urge you to give this change more time to fade out of players short term memory, this should decrease incidents of mass swarming of the bar or chefs area as well.

Psyentific wrote:Climbing tables is awful, awful pro-tide code. At least make it so you can't climb reinforced tables.

I disagree that this is "pro-tide" code, which as an aside is just a shitty label for things you do not like. Tools required to break tables and reinforced tables are widely available, and just like you can't stop multiple people tableclimbing into your area, you cannot stop several determined people from deconstructing your entire bar, which is something I have seen happen before.

Psyentific · Post by **Psyentific** » Thu Sep 25, 2014 7:50 am #30855

oranges wrote:[
Psyentific wrote:Climbing tables is awful, awful pro-tide code. At least make it so you can't climb reinforced tables.
I disagree that this is "pro-tide" code, which as an aside is just a shitty label for things you do not like. Tools required to break tables and reinforced tables are widely available, and just like you can't stop multiple people tableclimbing into your area, you cannot stop several determined people from deconstructing your entire bar, which is something I have seen happen before.

That's the thing, though. Making it so that tools aren't required lowers the barrier to entry. To pull an anecdote, I've seen someone attack the chef in the kitchen, the chef screams for security, and immediately five people show up. That's nothing new, really. The new bit is that before, one of those five might start deconstructing the counter or falsewall to get in - Now, all of them start climbing the tables. Mime, Assistant, QM, CMO, Engi, the works. Before, people actually had to break and enter - Now they just have to sprite-drag.

A fair amount of areas were designed to feature tables as semi-permeable barriers. Making those barriers permeable means that a fair amount of areas (Notably Service/Lib/Chapel) that are otherwise restricted are...not.

At least make it so you can't climb reinforced tables.

bandit · Post by **bandit** » Thu Sep 25, 2014 9:44 am #30882

oranges wrote:I disagree that this is "pro-tide" code, which as an aside is just a shitty label for things you do not like. Tools required to break tables and reinforced tables are widely available, and just like you can't stop multiple people tableclimbing into your area, you cannot stop several determined people from deconstructing your entire bar, which is something I have seen happen before.

Honestly? They kind of aren't. The limiting factor is welding tools, which aren't exactly common -- if there are enough assistants the public areas tend to run out in 15 minutes or less, and at that point you either break in somewhere or hope Cargo isn't being dicks. And with welders, you can only actually break tables so often before having to get eye protection.

Lo6a4evskiy wrote:The issue is that any fucking greyshirt or mime, without any tools or anything to prepare, can just go and scream RUSH BARMAN and everyone is climbing tables to fuck with him.

>mime
>"RUSH BARMAN"

kosmos · Post by **kosmos** » Thu Sep 25, 2014 10:32 am #30892

Reimoo wrote:If it's still that much of an issue, someone suggested earlier that disarming someone climbing on a table pushes them off.

Honestly, easy fix, guys.

Yes! Please make tableclimbing slow, getting on top of the table could be quite fast but over to the other side should be at least slow enough for a Chef to react on the other side of the kitchen.

Cipher3 · Post by **Cipher3** » Thu Sep 25, 2014 10:07 pm #31037

Lo6a4evskiy wrote:
oranges wrote:Deconstructing a reinforced table requires a wrench, a welder and 10-15 seconds.
Deconstructing a table requires a wrench and then you can reconstruct it anywhere there is other tables to climb onto them.
The amount of effort required is very very low bar, so low that I don't think that effort being required can really be used as argument against this.
If table climbing takes 15 seconds, burns your eyes, requires special equipment and welding fuel, then you're totally right.

Especially if you have maint access, you are never too far from a welder, you can go about five welds without any eye protection at all welding (enough that even as a greyshirt I almost never needed any), and you're implying anybody doing anything short of full remodeling is going to use up all their welding fuel.

Lo6a4evskiy · Post by **Lo6a4evskiy** » Fri Sep 26, 2014 6:04 am #31174

Okay, what is your point?

Cipher3 · Post by **Cipher3** » Fri Sep 26, 2014 9:15 pm #31337

That welding down a reinforced door is really much easier than you make it out to be. Done it a lot.

Raven776 · Post by **Raven776** » Fri Sep 26, 2014 9:27 pm #31339

If you remove a door, good luck getting engineering to rebuild it with the proper access. Space or trash that airlock electronics and watch the owner of a newly minted public space get very, very cross.

cedarbridge · Post by **cedarbridge** » Sat Sep 27, 2014 12:19 am #31365

You meant table right? I'm pretty sure a typo just derailed conversation.