remove tableclimbing

[kosmos]

Bottom post of the previous page:

If it's still that much of an issue, someone suggested earlier that disarming someone climbing on a table pushes them off.

Honestly, easy fix, guys.

Yes! Please make tableclimbing slow, getting on top of the table could be quite fast but over to the other side should be at least slow enough for a Chef to react on the other side of the kitchen.

[Cipher3]

Deconstructing a reinforced table requires a wrench, a welder and 10-15 seconds.
Deconstructing a table requires a wrench and then you can reconstruct it anywhere there is other tables to climb onto them.
The amount of effort required is very very low bar, so low that I don't think that effort being required can really be used as argument against this.

If table climbing takes 15 seconds, burns your eyes, requires special equipment and welding fuel, then you're totally right.

Especially if you have maint access, you are never too far from a welder, you can go about five welds without any eye protection at all welding (enough that even as a greyshirt I almost never needed any), and you're implying anybody doing anything short of full remodeling is going to use up all their welding fuel.

[Lo6a4evskiy]

Okay, what is your point?

[Cipher3]

That welding down a reinforced door is really much easier than you make it out to be. Done it a lot.

[Raven776]

If you remove a door, good luck getting engineering to rebuild it with the proper access. Space or trash that airlock electronics and watch the owner of a newly minted public space get very, very cross.

[cedarbridge]

You meant table right? I'm pretty sure a typo just derailed conversation.

[Raven776]

I think my point while a bit off topic was still very relevant to the conversation at hand despite being a response to a very likely typo.

If you take away someone's door, there is next to zero chance that an engineer will come fix it. It is IMMENSELY easy to do and removes any sense of security for the rest of the round. Why? Because you need access on a swipe of the airlock electronics to give the door the right access.

When that kind of glaring flaw exists, what's table climbing?

[paprika]

Table climbing won't be removed. Other ways to block secure areas (like windoors in sec checkpoint) will be added instead. Table climbing is a necessary improvement to the game's realism and gameplay. Tables in maint shouldn't be a super fast way to block people chasing you.

[Steelpoint]

Don't forget that the process of climbing does leave you stuck on the table for a few seconds before you can move again, and you drop any items in your hand. I think people need to go and point out areas that could do with being reinforced, that need to be reinforced, to protect against people climbing in.

I am tempted to add a windoor to the Sec Arrivals Checkpoint, but its oft used as a recharge point by tators.

[Mastigos]

Please remove table climbing, I can't rush into the brig and set up a clown office in the cells anymore.

[paprika]

Don't forget that the process of climbing does leave you stuck on the table for a few seconds before you can move again, and you drop any items in your hand. I think people need to go and point out areas that could do with being reinforced, that need to be reinforced, to protect against people climbing in.

I am tempted to add a windoor to the Sec Arrivals Checkpoint, but its oft used as a recharge point by tators.

Tators can emag the windoor or laser it then. Roundstart breakins and people having flashes and sec clothes is fucking stupid imo. They're almost never traitors. Please add a windoor.

[cedarbridge]

I am tempted to add a windoor to the Sec Arrivals Checkpoint, but its oft used as a recharge point by tators.

Not really a good reason to leave a room with sec gear and an ID console unsecured. If they want to use the charger they can break the glass.

[Incomptinence]

Table climbing won't be removed. Other ways to block secure areas (like windoors in sec checkpoint) will be added instead. Table climbing is a necessary improvement to the game's realism and gameplay. Tables in maint shouldn't be a super fast way to block people chasing you.

Tables take longer to place now, so tablescapes are a non issue.

[Silavite]

We spent quite a bit of time discussing it on the PR, but as I said earlier, this doesn't allow access to any secure areas.

Chem is a secure area
R&D and HoP's Office is a secure area (albiet shutters)

[Lo6a4evskiy]

That welding down a reinforced door is really much easier than you make it out to be. Done it a lot.

And climbing is five times easier. Your point?

Walls also take welder and wrench to get through. Should we add wall phasing too, because it was easy to break one anyway?

Tableclimbing adds very little and removes these light barricades that are not very tough to break through but still serve as ghetto walls. Now that's gone and the only thing added is assistants fucking with barman and chef.

[Raven776]

We spent quite a bit of time discussing it on the PR, but as I said earlier, this doesn't allow access to any secure areas.

Chem is a secure area
R&D and HoP's Office is a secure area (albiet shutters)

Both of those have windoors.

There are only three places seriously affected here. That is arrivals sec, bar, and kitchen.

[paprika]

Kitchen has shutters to crush people under too which is hilarious as fuck

[bandit]

There's also cargo disposals for windoor-less areas.

Plus, a lot of people (I.E. THE HEADS OF PERSONNEL) constantly leave their windoors down. You can argue that it's their own damn fault when they get raided, but at least before it used to take a modicum of time and effort and risk.

[Cipher3]

Kitchen has shutters to crush people under too which is hilarious as fuck

Especially since they're stunned when they first get on, so you have a good chance of catching them with their pants down.

[callanrockslol]

Table climbing won't be removed. Other ways to block secure areas (like windoors in sec checkpoint) will be added instead. Table climbing is a necessary improvement to the game's realism and gameplay. Tables in maint shouldn't be a super fast way to block people chasing you.

Tables take longer to place now, so tablescapes are a non issue.

But why, and this means you can be uber robust and table people with a pockettable

[peoplearestrange]

I still, and have always though, the bar itself needs shutters along it. This would stop the table climb into the kitchen (via the service hatch) and also gives the bartender the ability to "close the bar" during riots and other shit that happens.

[Steelpoint]

Adding shutters to the bar is no trouble. Might actually be a viable solution.

[Lo6a4evskiy]

Except they look hideous

[paprika]

Yeah I tried they look like shit

[Steelpoint]

As I said, if there is a way to hide the open door sprite, that would solve that problem.

[Hibbles]

Remove people who abuse table-climbing, it's just another litmus test.

Honestly, I mean that. It allows handy things like hopping the bar when the Bartender's gone (most of the time ever) to make drinks, or getting into the HoP's office when he's getting murdered or whatever. Like any feature, it has the potential for abuse, so we need to remove kebab. I think it's even already logged somewhere.

[Arete]

Remove people who abuse table-climbing, it's just another litmus test.

Honestly, I mean that. It allows handy things like hopping the bar when the Bartender's gone (most of the time ever) to make drinks, or getting into the HoP's office when he's getting murdered or whatever. Like any feature, it has the potential for abuse, so we need to remove kebab. I think it's even already logged somewhere.

Yeah, it's not that tableclimbing's overpowered, it's that it's a casual way to fuck with people as a non-antag. Making it impossible to climb over the bar or through open department windows would be like making it impossible to release plasma in engineering or make kudzu in botany. The enforcement just has to catch up with the new code.

[Redblaze3000]

The only time I've seen table climbing used for good is by janitor, or when there is no bartender or chef. Other that its just assholes stealing shit.

[Timbrewolf]

Climbing on tables is good.

Assholes who wanted to break into places were going to hear through the walls or smash shit down or a hundred other things they can do and will do and are probably doing right now.
Adding a feature that can be used by everyone as another way to get into a place doesn't open this faucet of griff and shittery.
That deluge of shit was already there.

I've already used this ability to hop a table as a medical doctor and heal a guy downed on the ground in an area I wouldn't normally have access to and couldn't wait around for the AI to open up.

The biggest concern for me with this change is how it fucks up the security checkpoint, but then again that place was frequently broken into from maintenance by people false walling in all the time anyway. Add some windoors or make the shutters down by default if that's possible, and everything will be fine.

[Alex Crimson]

Sure it can be used for good, but its a rare scenario. Most of the time its Assistants climbing stuff they shouldnt be climbing. The "oh but if they wanted to get in then they will regardless of tableclimbing" is a stupid argument. It takes a lot more effort to deconstruct a reinforced table or wall compared to just being able to climb whenever you want. Yes there are plenty of welders and wrenches on the station, but that little barrier served to keep people from breaking&entering unless they actually had a reason to. Now there is always an Assistant climbing into the bar and stealing drinks from the vending machine.

[Redblaze3000]

Sure it can be used for good, but its a rare scenario. Most of the time its Assistants climbing stuff they shouldnt be climbing. The "oh but if they wanted to get in then they will regardless of tableclimbing" is a stupid argument. It takes a lot more effort to deconstruct a reinforced table or wall compared to just being able to climb whenever you want. Yes there are plenty of welders and wrenches on the station, but that little barrier served to keep people from breaking&entering unless they actually had a reason to. Now there is always an Assistant climbing into the bar and stealing drinks from the vending machine.

Because of this the chef always has his shutters down these days.

[Scott]

It's not like any of you would go to the kitchen counter to get food.

[oranges]

Man we wasted 4 pages on this

[ExplosiveCrate]

Did we ever even get an answer on whether chefs/bartenders can kill/seriously injure people who tablehop/try to tablehop into their workplaces?

[Psyentific]

Did we ever even get an answer on whether chefs/bartenders can kill/seriously injure people who tablehop/try to tablehop into their workplaces?

The chef has shutters, which injure people if they're closed on them. My favorite thing to do as Chef, aside from a dozen Super Big Bite Burgers, is close those shutters on people who try and hop the table. Repeatedly.

[ExplosiveCrate]

Yes, I'm asking if doing that could potentially get you banned or not.

[Psyentific]

Yes, I'm asking if doing that could potentially get you banned or not.

Trespassers are valid for everything short of murder.

[Timbrewolf]

You know you can also quickly grab and throw anyone prone on the table so they fall off on the other side.

Though yeah I did crunch up an asshole who tried to climb the table as chef. I mean come on man I out food on that surface get your shoes off my serving line.

[callanrockslol]

Table Climbing has lowered the silly amount of hidden doors I used to make to sneak around in, so thats good at least.

[Redblaze3000]

Table Climbing has lowered the silly amount of hidden doors I used to make to sneak around in, so thats good at least.

So it removed one form of greyshitlery and became one itself?

[callanrockslol]

Table Climbing has lowered the silly amount of hidden doors I used to make to sneak around in, so thats good at least.

So it removed one form of greyshitlery and became one itself?

> hidden doors
> greyshittery

Listen here m8, hidden doors are an adventure in confusing, hectic chases and parrots stealing everything not nailed down, you keep using that word and im pretty sure you don't know what it means, so come back when they break the job assignment code again so I can teach you the meaning of greytide

[Aranclanos]

https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/5260