Hivemind Chat Changes

For feedback on the game code and design. Feedback on server rules and playstyle belong in Policy Discussion.

Moderators: MisterPerson, Code Maintainers

User avatar
Oldman Robustin
 
Joined: Tue May 13, 2014 2:18 pm
Byond Username: ForcefulCJS

Hivemind Chat Changes

Postby Oldman Robustin » Sun Sep 28, 2014 9:02 am #31734

This is starting to feel like one of my last posts here.

Taking breaks from SS13 is nothing new for me, but I feel like I've kinda seen everything this game can offer.

One change that I saw in a recent visit was very disappointing to me though. Hivemind was taken as a default Ling power and made into an optional "purchasable" power - thus tempting antags with loner tendencies to abandon the team and run solo for more powers... or just messing with newbies who might not understand or notice the change (the longer this change exists, the more likely new players will play ling without realizing they 'should' be able to speak in hivemind).

This also punishes lings who TRY to work as a team only to realize *HYUK* nobody else took hivemind and they have go absorb someone just to reset a shitty power they had no way of knowing would be shitty.

My view, and I'm confident that it's a sensible one, is that loner antag modes will always be inferior to team antag modes. When I reflect on my 4+ years of SS13 on here and Goon, the games that make me smile the most are always ones where I was banded together: Either with loyal crew against overwhelming odds or as an antag working with others to bring the station into chaos.


I never take much joy from "dunking random traitor who was roaming maintenance with an ebow" or "catching lone ling who was trying to armblade randos and drag them into maint". Even killing Wizards brings me joy, not because I'm bringing about the conclusion of an exciting and memorable conflict, but because I'm ending a tedious and boring round with a hit-and-run douchebag.

The point I'm making here is simple. Removing hivemind pushes changeling toward "supertraitor" mode - where you just make the tradeoff of having less "traitors" in return for making them more powerful.

Hivemind is what defined changeling mode, when I play crew I don't really give a shit about lone changelings - but I live in terror of what happens when a truly coordinated team of lings begins to infiltrate command or security positions. As a ling too, it was always the possibility of working through hivemind toward more spectacular goals is what kept the game interesting for me.


This change obviously doesn't remove hivemind, but it leaves it twitching half-dead on the side of the road. Hivemind was a great power because it was default. Having it optional will remove enough players that it loses potency for those who might already pick it, and thus tempt those people to no longer pick it either since talking with 1 other ling might not be as useful as cryosting or something. Just keep hivemind default, loners can still be loners... they just don't have to be rewarded for taking an interesting team mechanic and utterly ignoring it. It would be like giving cultists the option to forsake their tome (and working toward a mutual success with team communication) or nukeops the option to destroy their headset/pinpointer in exchange for a badass combat loadout. Why reward people for making choices that forsake teamwork in exchange for being a better lone wolf murderboner?
Last edited by Oldman Robustin on Wed Oct 01, 2014 9:12 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Image



User avatar
Psyentific
 
Joined: Mon Apr 21, 2014 7:44 am
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Byond Username: Psyentific

Re: Removing default Hivemind from Lings is another awful ch

Postby Psyentific » Sun Sep 28, 2014 9:04 am #31735

Good post.
I haven't logged into SS13 in at least a year.

Lo6a4evskiy
 
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 6:40 pm
Byond Username: Lo6a4evskiy

Re: Removing default Hivemind from Lings is another awful ch

Postby Lo6a4evskiy » Sun Sep 28, 2014 9:11 am #31737

While I think that hivemind removal was stupid, this post only supports the reason hivemind was removed in the first place.

User avatar
Saegrimr
 
Joined: Thu Jul 24, 2014 4:39 pm
Byond Username: Saegrimr

Re: Removing default Hivemind from Lings is another awful ch

Postby Saegrimr » Sun Sep 28, 2014 9:21 am #31738

The initial idea I think was to promote ling vs ling conflict.
However this was more common when all lings heard hivemind, as the conflicting ling could listen in to your information being given out and stalk you.
tedward1337 wrote:Sae is like the racist grandad who everyone laughs at for being racist, but deep down we all know he's right.

User avatar
Kuraudo
 
Joined: Tue Jul 22, 2014 9:48 pm
Location: France
Byond Username: Arumashi

Re: Removing default Hivemind from Lings is another awful ch

Postby Kuraudo » Sun Sep 28, 2014 11:31 am #31758

I made a topic about this:
http://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=1437

You have a point, but unfortunately, after pages and pages of debate, i suspect the coders to follow the Red Army motto "Not one step back !", basically meaning that even if you're right, we won't get to see the old hivemind.
"He can't be bargained with. He can't be reasoned with. He doesn't feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And he absolutely will not stop, ever, until you are brigged."

User avatar
Arete
 
Joined: Mon Aug 04, 2014 12:55 am
Byond Username: Arete

Re: Removing default Hivemind from Lings is another awful ch

Postby Arete » Sun Sep 28, 2014 12:21 pm #31765

This post puts it better than I could have myself. SS13 is fundamentally a social game, and removing social mechanics makes the game more stale. If lings were really too strong with default hivemind, then keep hivemind as a default power and reduce them to four optional powers if you really have to. If ling ops really are too dangerous, then there have got to be other changes that can be made to make changelings less robust in straight up combat. As things stand, this change discouraged changelings from pursuing the more interesting strategies available to them.

User avatar
paprika
Rarely plays
 
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 10:20 pm
Location: in down bad
Byond Username: Paprka

Re: Removing default Hivemind from Lings is another awful ch

Postby paprika » Sun Sep 28, 2014 3:54 pm #31804

Wtf backstabbing lings or helping each other out was a risky integral part of ling robustin is right who the fuck removed this

OH LOOK IT WAS IKARRUS
https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/4622

HE ALSO ADDED THE ANNOYING SIREN WHEN THE ALERT LEVEL CHANGES

LYNCH HE

This is such a literal 'omfg i ded plz nerf' because ikarrus died from a team of changelings that it isn't even funny. Welcome to changeling rounds being even more fucking boring and just being traitor with superpowers! Yay!!!!
Oldman Robustin wrote:It's an established meme that coders don't play this game.

User avatar
cedarbridge
In-Game Admin
 
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 12:24 am
Byond Username: Cedarbridge

Re: Removing default Hivemind from Lings is another awful ch

Postby cedarbridge » Sun Sep 28, 2014 4:45 pm #31829

This server really can't figured out what it wants out of lings. The round that motivated this change was a round where a team of lings took over the station in an orgy of armblade and carnage. "Its just too easy for lings to organize!" was the battle cry and lingchat turned into a power that was rarely taken again.

Ironically, a couple weeks after this we get several threads about how "weak" lings are.

User avatar
Steelpoint
Github User
 
Joined: Thu Apr 17, 2014 6:37 pm
Location: The Armoury
Byond Username: Steelpoint
Github Username: Steelpoint

Re: Removing default Hivemind from Lings is another awful ch

Postby Steelpoint » Sun Sep 28, 2014 4:48 pm #31830

Changelings are that thing we can't figure out, as noted.

I am honestly at a lost at exactly what we want to make Changelings. I think at this point we are just trying to make Changelings into Traitors but with a organic twist! We are clearly trying to move away from the source material and making it less about subterfuge and monsters and more about being a alternative traitor.
Image

User avatar
Ikarrus
 
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 2:17 am
Location: Canada
Byond Username: Ikarrus
Github Username: Ikarrus

Re: Removing default Hivemind from Lings is another awful ch

Postby Ikarrus » Sun Sep 28, 2014 4:58 pm #31833

Yeah, we're going to need a defined direction from changeling before we can even start to work on it. Everyone has a different idea of how it's supposed to play out, and no developer is willing (and/or would even be permitted to) take ownership of the game mode, even just briefly, to give it the direction it needs.

I still stand by that the removal was a good move, and I think there's a PR up to make it cost a half point. It's not like it's never used, though, I still see changelings communicate and cooperate over lingchat. It's not a total shot in the dark to see if anyone else also bought it, changelings can still *sense* that others are using it.

I'm not going to freak out if you guys don't agree, though. If it gets reverted then I won't really be upset.
Former Dev/Headmin
Who is this guy?

Scott
Github User
 
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 1:50 pm
Byond Username: Xxnoob
Github Username: xxalpha

Re: Removing default Hivemind from Lings is another awful ch

Postby Scott » Sun Sep 28, 2014 5:00 pm #31834

Steelpoint wrote:Changelings are that thing we can't figure out, as noted.

I am honestly at a lost at exactly what we want to make Changelings. I think at this point we are just trying to make Changelings into Traitors but with a organic twist! We are clearly trying to move away from the source material and making it less about subterfuge and monsters and more about being a alternative traitor.


Weren't you the one who likes murderbone because it's more fun than "nothing happening"? You should be in favor of these changes.

User avatar
Steelpoint
Github User
 
Joined: Thu Apr 17, 2014 6:37 pm
Location: The Armoury
Byond Username: Steelpoint
Github Username: Steelpoint

Re: Removing default Hivemind from Lings is another awful ch

Postby Steelpoint » Sun Sep 28, 2014 5:09 pm #31836

My position is that I would prefer murderboning over nothing happening for two hours, I never said I liked it.

On topic, somehow we need to hammer out what direction Changelings should go. While I will always have a place for the Shadowling, I personally think Changelings should be based around building up power slowly throughout the round, making them weak at first and stronger later on.

Maybe we can get something together, its still better than nothing.
Image

Scott
Github User
 
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 1:50 pm
Byond Username: Xxnoob
Github Username: xxalpha

Re: Removing default Hivemind from Lings is another awful ch

Postby Scott » Sun Sep 28, 2014 5:13 pm #31839

Restore parasting, hivemind and progression. The more DNA you have, the more mutations you can handle.

User avatar
bandit
In-Game Admin
 
Joined: Thu Apr 17, 2014 7:35 pm
Byond Username: Bgobandit

Re: Removing default Hivemind from Lings is another awful ch

Postby bandit » Sun Sep 28, 2014 5:14 pm #31841

You know, there's a design for lings based on building up power slowly throughout the round.

It's called oldling.

Just saying.
"I don't see any difference between ERP and rape." -- erro

admin feedback pls

User avatar
cedarbridge
In-Game Admin
 
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 12:24 am
Byond Username: Cedarbridge

Re: Removing default Hivemind from Lings is another awful ch

Postby cedarbridge » Sun Sep 28, 2014 5:18 pm #31844

Scott wrote:Restore parasting

Get out

Scott
Github User
 
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 1:50 pm
Byond Username: Xxnoob
Github Username: xxalpha

Re: Removing default Hivemind from Lings is another awful ch

Postby Scott » Sun Sep 28, 2014 5:28 pm #31847

Then make it so the ling emp breaks PDAs.

User avatar
Oldman Robustin
 
Joined: Tue May 13, 2014 2:18 pm
Byond Username: ForcefulCJS

Re: Removing default Hivemind from Lings is another awful ch

Postby Oldman Robustin » Sun Sep 28, 2014 7:28 pm #31880

I'm kind of in shock that because one bloody round ended well for lings someone knee-jerked right into the fucking code and ruined the core fucking uniqueness behind Changeling.

We can worry about big picture shit down the road, restore hivemind and balance around that... without hivemind it's just fucking "traitor 2.0".

I'm kinda disgusted that people actually reacted negatively to lings teaming up and wrecking the station. I'd pay to see that fucking round play out over "maintenance lurking murderboners round #34809384903".
Image

User avatar
bandit
In-Game Admin
 
Joined: Thu Apr 17, 2014 7:35 pm
Byond Username: Bgobandit

Re: Removing default Hivemind from Lings is another awful ch

Postby bandit » Sun Sep 28, 2014 7:59 pm #31894

Oldman Robustin wrote:I'm kind of in shock that because one bloody round ended well for lings someone knee-jerked right into the fucking code and ruined the core fucking uniqueness behind Changeling.


I'm kind of in shock that you're objecting to I DED, PLZ NERF.
"I don't see any difference between ERP and rape." -- erro

admin feedback pls

User avatar
Riley
 
Joined: Fri Apr 25, 2014 9:21 am
Byond Username: Furienify

Re: Removing default Hivemind from Lings is another awful ch

Postby Riley » Sun Sep 28, 2014 9:27 pm #31907

I tend to despise ling rounds but I agree, this change is unnecessary and ought to be reverted.

In my experience, cooperative changelings are exceptionally rare, especially to the point of taking over a station. If they pull it off they honestly deserve it - there's plenty of time to notice people going missing, acting differently, discovering a husk nest in maintenance, or something to that effect. It allows for RP, tension, drama, subversion, betrayal and other elements of a great round.

Most isolated changelings just try to murderbone in maintenance or play extremely passively, eventually getting picked off one by one. It's very boring in comparison, at least for those that aren't actively hunting them.

User avatar
Reimoo
 
Joined: Wed Apr 23, 2014 2:58 pm
Byond Username: Reimoo

Re: Removing default Hivemind from Lings is another awful ch

Postby Reimoo » Sun Sep 28, 2014 11:50 pm #31943

I pretty much agree with everything Robustin is saying.

callanrockslol
 
Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2014 1:47 pm
Byond Username: Callanrockslol

Re: Removing default Hivemind from Lings is another awful ch

Postby callanrockslol » Mon Sep 29, 2014 1:27 am #31974

Can we just roll it back to oldling after it first got the new skill unlock thingy and then add all the good stuff like armblades from newling, AND THEN work on it from there, because at least there would be a strong antag that could reliably not be boring as piss.
The most excessive signature on /tg/station13.

Still not even at the limit after 8 fucking years.

Spoiler:
Urist Boatmurdered [Security] asks, "Why does Zol have a captain-level ID?"
Zol Interbottom [Security] says, "because"

Sergie Borris lives on in our hearts

Zaros (No id) [145.9] says, "WITH MY SUPER WIZARD POWERS I CAN TELL CALLAN IS MAD."

Anderson Conagher wrote:Callan is sense.

Errorage wrote:When I see the win vista, win 7 and win 8 hourglass cursor, it makes me happy
Cause it's a circle spinning around
I smile and make circular motions with my finger to imiatate it

petethegoat wrote:slap a comment on it and call it a feature

MisterPerson wrote:>playing
Do you think this is a game?

Gun Hog wrote:Untested code baby

oranges wrote:for some reason all our hosts turn into bohemia software communities after they implode

Malkevin wrote:I was the only one that voted for you Callan.

Miggles wrote:>centration development
>trucking
ill believe it when snakes grow arms and strangle me with them



OOC: Aranclanos: that sounds like ooc in ooc related to ic to be ooc and confuse the ic
OOC: Dionysus24779: We're nearing a deep philosophical extistential level

Admin PM from-Jordie0608: 33-Jan-2552| Warned: Is a giraffe dork ~tony abbott

OOC: Saegrimr: That wasn't a call to pray right now callan jesus christ you're fast.

OOC: Eaglendia: Glad I got to see the rise, fall, rise, and fall of Zol

OOC: Armhulenn: CALLAN
OOC: Armhulenn: YOU MELTED MY FUCKING REVOLVER
OOC: Armhulenn: AND THEN
OOC: Armhulenn: GAVE ME MELTING MELONS
OOC: Armhulenn: GOD FUCKING BLESS YOU
OOC: Armhulenn: you know what's hilarious though
OOC: Armhulenn: I melted ANOTHER TRAITOR'S REVOLVER AFTER THAT

7/8/2016 never forget

Armhulen wrote:
John_Oxford wrote:>implying im not always right

all we're saying is that you're not crag son


bandit wrote:we already have a punishment for using our code for your game, it's called using our code for your game

The evil holoparasite user I can't believe its not DIO and his holoparasite I can't believe its not Skub have been defeated by the Spacedust Crusaders, but what has been taken from the station can never be returned.

OOC: TheGel: Literally a guy in a suit with a shuttle full of xenos. That's a doozy

Incomptinence
 
Joined: Fri May 02, 2014 3:01 am
Byond Username: Incomptinence

Re: Removing default Hivemind from Lings is another awful ch

Postby Incomptinence » Mon Sep 29, 2014 8:28 am #32054

After this change removed ling chat a ling buff https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/4832 was merged a fairly big one. Increases in some genetic damage from mutations, decreases in some chemical costs and a price re-balancing similar (10 points most powers cost 2) to traitor but with only discounts being added.
Resonant/Dissonant Shriek, Lesser Form, Digital Camo, Mimic Voice, Organic Shield, Anatomic Panacena, Spread Infestation, Blind Sting, and Hallucination Sting now all cost 1 point

50% off on the mediocre to terrible powers! Hive mind still costs 20% of your points aka 2, can we spawn lings with Russian revolvers so they can neatly shoot themselves already?

Newlings are less common than traitors and worse than them at about every metric for treason and fear, not that we aren't working to make traitors just as bad.

Even oldlings were steaming garbage compared to traitors.

User avatar
Phalanx300
 
Joined: Fri Aug 08, 2014 7:26 pm
Byond Username: Phalanx300

Re: Removing default Hivemind from Lings is another awful ch

Postby Phalanx300 » Mon Sep 29, 2014 9:32 pm #32249

Steelpoint wrote:Changelings are that thing we can't figure out, as noted.


Something like this: http://mushpedia.com/wiki/Mush Where they can infect crewmembers and have to cause chaos, infecting crewmembers is limited by having to do multiple infections.

Or you know, make them like the actual thing which the Mush as above simulated far better. All issues with Changelings really are avoided if they are actually made like Things. Infecting rather then absorbing should be the thing.

User avatar
lumipharon
 
Joined: Mon Apr 28, 2014 4:40 am
Byond Username: Lumipharon

Re: I don't like having to pay for Hivemind Chat

Postby lumipharon » Tue Sep 30, 2014 10:27 pm #32520

Ling chat is great purely for the round where I didn't really feel like a long round, so asked in ling 'who wants to go for a walk?' and have 3-4 other lings put their hands up. We then all got spacesuits and armblades, before talking a stroll out of arrivals to the brig, and fucking some shit up. I think we all died, but it was hilarious as fuck.

User avatar
Aranclanos
 
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2014 4:55 pm
Byond Username: Aranclanos

Re: I don't like having to pay for Hivemind Chat

Postby Aranclanos » Tue Sep 30, 2014 10:33 pm #32523

I don't think this was a good change.
I accept donations, click here

User avatar
Gun Hog
 
Joined: Sat Apr 19, 2014 5:19 am
Byond Username: Gun Hog

Re: I don't like having to pay for Hivemind Chat

Postby Gun Hog » Tue Sep 30, 2014 10:39 pm #32524

Aranclanos wrote:I don't think this was a good change.

You have the power to change it back, Aran!

callanrockslol
 
Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2014 1:47 pm
Byond Username: Callanrockslol

Re: I don't like having to pay for Hivemind Chat

Postby callanrockslol » Wed Oct 01, 2014 1:35 am #32577

Aranclanos wrote:I don't think this was a good change.

The most excessive signature on /tg/station13.

Still not even at the limit after 8 fucking years.

Spoiler:
Urist Boatmurdered [Security] asks, "Why does Zol have a captain-level ID?"
Zol Interbottom [Security] says, "because"

Sergie Borris lives on in our hearts

Zaros (No id) [145.9] says, "WITH MY SUPER WIZARD POWERS I CAN TELL CALLAN IS MAD."

Anderson Conagher wrote:Callan is sense.

Errorage wrote:When I see the win vista, win 7 and win 8 hourglass cursor, it makes me happy
Cause it's a circle spinning around
I smile and make circular motions with my finger to imiatate it

petethegoat wrote:slap a comment on it and call it a feature

MisterPerson wrote:>playing
Do you think this is a game?

Gun Hog wrote:Untested code baby

oranges wrote:for some reason all our hosts turn into bohemia software communities after they implode

Malkevin wrote:I was the only one that voted for you Callan.

Miggles wrote:>centration development
>trucking
ill believe it when snakes grow arms and strangle me with them



OOC: Aranclanos: that sounds like ooc in ooc related to ic to be ooc and confuse the ic
OOC: Dionysus24779: We're nearing a deep philosophical extistential level

Admin PM from-Jordie0608: 33-Jan-2552| Warned: Is a giraffe dork ~tony abbott

OOC: Saegrimr: That wasn't a call to pray right now callan jesus christ you're fast.

OOC: Eaglendia: Glad I got to see the rise, fall, rise, and fall of Zol

OOC: Armhulenn: CALLAN
OOC: Armhulenn: YOU MELTED MY FUCKING REVOLVER
OOC: Armhulenn: AND THEN
OOC: Armhulenn: GAVE ME MELTING MELONS
OOC: Armhulenn: GOD FUCKING BLESS YOU
OOC: Armhulenn: you know what's hilarious though
OOC: Armhulenn: I melted ANOTHER TRAITOR'S REVOLVER AFTER THAT

7/8/2016 never forget

Armhulen wrote:
John_Oxford wrote:>implying im not always right

all we're saying is that you're not crag son


bandit wrote:we already have a punishment for using our code for your game, it's called using our code for your game

The evil holoparasite user I can't believe its not DIO and his holoparasite I can't believe its not Skub have been defeated by the Spacedust Crusaders, but what has been taken from the station can never be returned.

OOC: TheGel: Literally a guy in a suit with a shuttle full of xenos. That's a doozy

PostThis post was deleted by Cheridan on Wed Oct 01, 2014 8:37 pm.
Reason: off topic posting :^)

User avatar
Oldman Robustin
 
Joined: Tue May 13, 2014 2:18 pm
Byond Username: ForcefulCJS

Re: I don't like having to pay for Hivemind Chat

Postby Oldman Robustin » Wed Oct 01, 2014 7:24 am #32618

Incomptinence wrote:New-ling and Old-ling now filter to changeling sans hyphens, cute and obstructive.

Hint, when a relatively old revamp is so unpopular and indefensible you feel the need to obfuscate its very name it probably was probably not worth keeping.


My thread title was changed too.

This really feels like a shitshow from the powers that be...

Someone please restore my faith in /tg/station.
Image

User avatar
Steelpoint
Github User
 
Joined: Thu Apr 17, 2014 6:37 pm
Location: The Armoury
Byond Username: Steelpoint
Github Username: Steelpoint

Re: I don't like having to pay for Hivemind Chat

Postby Steelpoint » Wed Oct 01, 2014 7:26 am #32620

Hivemind chat should be returned as a default power. While I rarely play as a antag, I do know that having a good method of communication with other antags, and having no actual requirement to help them thus allowing for backstabbing and uncertainty, can be enticing.

I may not be a big fan of the current implementation of Changeling, but their ability to communicate with one another easily was one of the, personally, good parts of it.
Image

PostThis post was deleted by Cheridan on Wed Oct 01, 2014 8:37 pm.
Reason: off topic posting :^)

PostThis post was deleted by Cheridan on Wed Oct 01, 2014 8:38 pm.
Reason: off topic posting :^)

PostThis post was deleted by Cheridan on Wed Oct 01, 2014 8:38 pm.
Reason: off topic posting :^)

User avatar
paprika
Rarely plays
 
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 10:20 pm
Location: in down bad
Byond Username: Paprka

Re: I don't like having to pay for Hivemind Chat

Postby paprika » Wed Oct 01, 2014 10:34 am #32648

PAPRIKA'S NEW PLAN FOR CHANGELING:

1) REINSTATE LING CHAT AS A DEFAULT POWER THAT YOU DON'T HAVE TO PAY FOR (TRAITORS DON'T HAVE TO BUY CODE WORDS, DO THEY?)
2) TELL SEC WHO GET OWNED BY LINGS TO GIT FUCKING GUD
3) HOLD A 'LING FREEZE' UNTIL THE END OF THE YEAR -- NO CHANGES BESIDES GAME-BREAKING HOTFIXES WILL BE MADE TO CHANGELING UNTIL JANUARY OR UNTIL WE CAN FIGURE OUT WHAT THE FUCK WE WANT TO EVEN DO WITH IT AND HAVE AN ACTUAL NEW REFORMED VERSION OF LING THAT DOESN'T OBJECTIVELY SUCK BALLS FOR BOTH NON-LINGS AND LING PLAYERS

PROFIT
Oldman Robustin wrote:It's an established meme that coders don't play this game.

User avatar
Steelpoint
Github User
 
Joined: Thu Apr 17, 2014 6:37 pm
Location: The Armoury
Byond Username: Steelpoint
Github Username: Steelpoint

Re: I don't like having to pay for Hivemind Chat

Postby Steelpoint » Wed Oct 01, 2014 11:05 am #32660

Either way, it would be a solid move for the community to actually figure out what we want out of changeling.

Many of the new ling abilities are simply just organic reskins of traitor equipment, like the space suit and arm blade. That does not present a lot of options and it only keeps moving Changeling towards being a organic twist on traitor.
Image

User avatar
Kuraudo
 
Joined: Tue Jul 22, 2014 9:48 pm
Location: France
Byond Username: Arumashi

Re: I don't like having to pay for Hivemind Chat

Postby Kuraudo » Wed Oct 01, 2014 11:20 am #32662

lumipharon wrote:Ling chat is great purely for the round where I didn't really feel like a long round, so asked in ling 'who wants to go for a walk?' and have 3-4 other lings put their hands up. We then all got spacesuits and armblades, before talking a stroll out of arrivals to the brig, and fucking some shit up. I think we all died, but it was hilarious as fuck.


I was one of the lings and i can confirm we all died. That was fun as hell, but ineffective as you can be. That sums up what the ling actually became.
"He can't be bargained with. He can't be reasoned with. He doesn't feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And he absolutely will not stop, ever, until you are brigged."

Konork
 
Joined: Sat Apr 19, 2014 6:33 am
Byond Username: Konork

Re: I don't like having to pay for Hivemind Chat

Postby Konork » Wed Oct 01, 2014 8:23 pm #32760

I have two quick things to say about how ling should go, with one power suggestion
1. Ling should probably be focused around stealth, but with bursts of robustness to take down targets that have the downside of making it extremely obvious that there's a ling. To that end, maybe lings could get some sort of power that covers their entire sprite, disguises them as unknown, and hides what they actually have equipped on examinations, to stop ';HALP CLOWN EATING ME IN ROBOTICS' from being as effective.
2. If ling progression through eating people is brought back, it should probably be limited to only getting the "stealth" powers, to discourage people from just eating everyone, recalling the shuttle repeatedly, and just generally murderboning to max everything out. I know admins can take care of it, but it's probably best to try to make it not as effective from the start.

User avatar
Oldman Robustin
 
Joined: Tue May 13, 2014 2:18 pm
Byond Username: ForcefulCJS

Re: I don't like having to pay for Hivemind Chat

Postby Oldman Robustin » Wed Oct 01, 2014 9:11 pm #32779

Every post about non-hivemind ling issues is a reduction in the chance we're ever going to get this awful change reverted.

Mods are already cracking down all over this thread, filtering words, changing titles, and deleting any post offensive to them.

Please no more tangents about other ling powers. The priority in this thread is building a consensus that hivemind needs to come back as a default power.


To Coders: Why the fuck do you always push through these major changes without consulting the playerbase, while bragging on Github "LOL WE SHOULD RUSH THIS THROUGH IT LITERALLY TAKES 0 EFFORT TO REVERT" and then after backlash in the community you dig in your heels and refuse to communicate or compromise with the community.
Image

User avatar
ThatSlyFox
 
Joined: Thu Jun 26, 2014 7:00 am
Location: USA!
Byond Username: ThatSlyFox

Re: Hivemind changes are inexcusably awful - CONSENSUS = REV

Postby ThatSlyFox » Wed Oct 01, 2014 10:02 pm #32795

No one likes it coders. Just revert it back or give good reasons why it should stay the way it is while ignoring the community.

As it is now it is a waste of points when you can get something more useful.

User avatar
Kuraudo
 
Joined: Tue Jul 22, 2014 9:48 pm
Location: France
Byond Username: Arumashi

Re: I don't like having to pay for Hivemind Chat

Postby Kuraudo » Wed Oct 01, 2014 11:14 pm #32801

Oldman Robustin wrote:To Coders: Why the fuck do you always push through these major changes without consulting the playerbase, while bragging on Github "LOL WE SHOULD RUSH THIS THROUGH IT LITERALLY TAKES 0 EFFORT TO REVERT" and then after backlash in the community you dig in your heels and refuse to communicate or compromise with the community.


Because the ability to go back on something and acknowledge you were wrong is exclusive to only some rational personality types.
Other people faced with valid argument and evidence proving them that what they did was wrong and they need to scrap it, will whine, whine and whine... shout at you, censor you, call you a faggot or exercise exceptional bad faith. They'll try to desperately set their logic into a reality that doesn't fit it. Like some toddler trying to force a square shaped figure into a circular slot.
For people in a position of power, it's even worse since they think that going back on a decision is a stain on their image and authority, and decrease the level of confidence people put on them.

That's why we'll never ever go back on old-ling, that's why feedback and pointing out negative changes is mostly useless, and that's why you have zero chances of getting a ban lifted if you call out bullshit on the ban and don't validate it by apologizing for your behavior etc...

Post scriptum: Writing this, i discovered that the word "old-ling" without the indent, comes out as "changeling". A way to maliciously erase the past and convey us the message that there is no going back. A comical yet worrying example of what I just talked about.
"He can't be bargained with. He can't be reasoned with. He doesn't feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And he absolutely will not stop, ever, until you are brigged."

User avatar
MrStonedOne
Host
 
Joined: Mon Apr 14, 2014 10:56 pm
Byond Username: MrStonedOne
Github Username: MrStonedOne

Re: Hivemind Chat Changes

Postby MrStonedOne » Thu Oct 02, 2014 4:54 pm #32968

BACK ON TOPIC:

Suggestions maybe? How about making it so lings can always hear the chat, but transmission is what requires a cost? Maybe making it so not everything costs about the same so there can be more flexibility in pricing?
Forum/Wiki Administrator, Server host, Database King, Master Coder

MrStonedOne on Reddit(banned), Steam, IRC, Skype Discord.

Jack7D1 wrote:After reviewing the history of our previous host(s) I conclude that MSO is our most favorable host to date. To remove him would be very unwise.
Jack7D1 wrote:I seem to be mistaken

User avatar
Steelpoint
Github User
 
Joined: Thu Apr 17, 2014 6:37 pm
Location: The Armoury
Byond Username: Steelpoint
Github Username: Steelpoint

Re: Hivemind Chat Changes

Postby Steelpoint » Thu Oct 02, 2014 5:02 pm #32970

I would like to see Hivemind become a default ability again. It is truly one of the only unique abilities a Changeling has, just to list off their abilities in comparison to others.

  • Digital Camouflage - Agent ID Card
  • Epinephrine Overdose - Adrenal Implant
  • Fleshmend - Unique ability or just use a Medkit
  • Lesser Form - A Genetics ability and its own antag (Monkey Mode)
  • Mimic Voice - Voice Changer Gas Mask
  • Arm Blade - Energy Sword
  • Organic Space Suit - Syndicate Space Suit
  • Anatomic Panacea - Unique ability or just get a Medkit/bother chemistry
  • Resonant Shriek - Unique ability
  • Dissonant Shriek - EMP Implant
  • Spread Infestation - Unique ability
  • Transformation Sting - A Genetics ability
  • Mute Sting - Parapen
  • Blind Sting - Stab them in the eye
  • Hallucination & Cyro Sting - Unique Ability

Of the 16 Changeling abilties (Barring the starting set), only 6 of them are unique to the Changeling, and even then two of them (Hall and Cyro Sting) can be easily replicated, and a simple medikit replaces about two of the abilities.

Changeling is becoming more and more a organic reskin of a Traitor.
Image

Lo6a4evskiy
 
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 6:40 pm
Byond Username: Lo6a4evskiy

Re: Hivemind Chat Changes

Postby Lo6a4evskiy » Thu Oct 02, 2014 5:52 pm #32983

MrStonedOne wrote:BACK ON TOPIC:

Suggestions maybe? How about making it so lings can always hear the chat, but transmission is what requires a cost? Maybe making it so not everything costs about the same so there can be more flexibility in pricing?

Between having to buy it and this I choose this.

But it's still stupid. Like what, you make it so lings that can talk with each other have 4 abilities instead of 5 (yeah costs got shifted a bit but you get the idea). That doesn't make a whole lot of sense. It's just a very weird way of doing things.

Scott
Github User
 
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 1:50 pm
Byond Username: Xxnoob
Github Username: xxalpha

Re: Hivemind Chat Changes

Postby Scott » Thu Oct 02, 2014 6:00 pm #32986

Just revert it to what it was. One round where lings were good is not a reason to nerf lings. This ain't league of legends.

User avatar
Oldman Robustin
 
Joined: Tue May 13, 2014 2:18 pm
Byond Username: ForcefulCJS

Re: Hivemind Chat Changes

Postby Oldman Robustin » Thu Oct 02, 2014 6:22 pm #32994

Reversion is still the smartest choice I see here.

Listening but no talking is still a half measure that still bears many of the problems I mentioned.

I still haven't heard a good argument for why this needed to happen in the first place. Lings are outnumbered by traitors and don't get any inherent stuns or ranged weaponry, hivemind is what allows them to transcend "shitty traitor" status and work together and do something more remarkable than spamming LSD stings.
Image

Apsis
 
Joined: Thu Apr 17, 2014 2:26 pm

Re: Hivemind Chat Changes

Postby Apsis » Thu Oct 02, 2014 6:24 pm #32995

Reverting this would be a good idea. Hivemind had a chance to make rounds less boring, and now it's just a full on snooze fest.

User avatar
Arete
 
Joined: Mon Aug 04, 2014 12:55 am
Byond Username: Arete

Re: Hivemind Chat Changes

Postby Arete » Thu Oct 02, 2014 6:55 pm #33005

If the theme of evolution is part of what is supposed to make changelings unique, then why not arrange their powers into a "tech tree" of sorts? Use DNA-sting-extracted genomes as the advancement point along the tree (I wouldn't support using fully absorbed people as the advancement points because it puts too much pressure on lings to remove people from the round). The branches are assassination, survival, and infiltration. If hivemind chat were one of the first possible powers, then at the very most it's a small required investment, and it's quite possible that someone who wants to do that sort of playstyle would have to pick it up anyway. On the other end of the spectrum, changelings could get some stronger lategame powers to make them more unique without allowing them to dominate the round from square one.

User avatar
cedarbridge
In-Game Admin
 
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 12:24 am
Byond Username: Cedarbridge

Re: Hivemind Chat Changes

Postby cedarbridge » Thu Oct 02, 2014 9:10 pm #33034

Steelpoint wrote:
  • Hallucination & Cyro Sting - Unique Ability

Cryosting can be replicated with a syringe gun and a slime extract.

Incomptinence
 
Joined: Fri May 02, 2014 3:01 am
Byond Username: Incomptinence

Re: Hivemind Chat Changes

Postby Incomptinence » Thu Oct 02, 2014 9:25 pm #33039

Reverting hive mind toll would be as pointless as reverting to old-ling. I am pretty sure there was almost no stage where changeling met its design goals and made the server population or coders happy.

The dissatisfaction changeling has created for players and coders is pretty consistent. I say just remove it totally.
Last edited by Incomptinence on Fri Oct 03, 2014 6:08 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Steelpoint
Github User
 
Joined: Thu Apr 17, 2014 6:37 pm
Location: The Armoury
Byond Username: Steelpoint
Github Username: Steelpoint

Re: Hivemind Chat Changes

Postby Steelpoint » Fri Oct 03, 2014 6:05 am #33126

Or just replace Changeling with the Shadowling. It is the only incarnation of Changeling that actually received near universal praise from the server.

That comes from the encouragement of the Shadowling to absorb people which bring them back into the round as a UnderShadowling.
Image

Next

Return to Coding Feedback

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users