/tg/Station 13

Bottom post of the previous page:

Assistant is a job for gimmicks or new players. If you want gimmicks, ask the HoP for access change. I honestly never understood why a job with no responsibility whatso-ever got access to maint tunnels, even when security doesn't.

deputi wrote: 2. Maint is reserved for antags that don't want to get caught doing antag stuff in maint by assistants. I think the universal response to that is to git gud. Or maybe antags would rather want to get caught by the less friendly and more robust station engineers, atmos techs or security officers that get maint access.

Sec officers don't get maint access you stupid shitter.

deputi wrote:Reasons for keeping maint access are:
1. Assistants can learn how to build stuff or just have fun building shit in maint without worrying that they're getting in anyone's way.

They can do this anyway

deputi wrote:2. Most people with jobs don't bother with the half-built rooms in maint intended for fun gimmicks but assistants have the time to rebuild them.

They can do this anyway

deputi wrote:3. New players can explore maint as an assistant to give them a taste of the layout and prepare them for technical jobs.

They can do this anyway

deputi wrote:4. There are many useful things(coins, tools, utility belts, firesuits, fun stuff)in maint that assistants can get so they don't have to bother the station crew for.

Invalidates cargo (lol i'll just get tools from maint!)

deputi wrote:5. Assistants can also be antags so removing their maint access would leave them with less department-specific benefits that can be used for antaging.

Antags have no problem getting past access restrictions and antag assistants should not have an advantage over other job slots as antag, if anything it should be hard mode antag

deputi wrote:6. The assistants that really want to do something in maint without taking up a job slot would have to ask the HoP for access which would increase the HoP's workload and might have them unwilling to deal with assistants.

Oh no the HoP has to do his job because some assistants might want maint access this is a valid reason for giving assistants maint every round

deputi wrote:7. Assistants in maint can find dead bodies or breaches in space to help the station crew.

Stupid, if anything this proves medical doctors should have maint, not assistants

deputi wrote:8. Assistants can use the maint tunnels to travel around the station to reduce getting in the way of people doing their job such as security officers going after criminals or medical doctors responding to injured people.

Equally stupid

deputi wrote:9. Assistants wandering maint are isolated and easy targets for changlings and cultists with stun papers.

No because they're usually powergaming tryhards who 'stumble' into cult bases in maint and scream CULT over radio

deputi wrote:10. Tunnel snakes rule!

Grey tide apologist meme?


If you really want to force the 'grey tide' stereotype, wouldn't forcing assistants to break into maint and hack in to get loot actually do that better than keeping it?

Sec officers don't get maint access you stupid shitter.

Relax, I meant security officers that get maint access from the HoP because that's what most officers do.

They can do this anyway

It'd be pretty hard without maint access.

They can do this anyway

It'd be pretty hard without maint access.

They can do this anyway

It'd be pretty hard without maint access.

Invalidates cargo (lol i'll just get tools from maint!)

Cargo can't get you everything and if no one is at cargo at the time it's better to get the tools from maint rather than break in.

Antags have no problem getting past access restrictions and antag assistants should not have an advantage over other job slots as antag, if anything it should be hard mode antag

The only way to get into maint for an antag shouldn't be to get an emag, agent card or to hack every door. They can also get IDs from assistants for maint access. Antags with jobs have much greater benefits than an assistant's such the chef's gibber, chemist's chemicals and the engineers access to the singularity so I think it's fair. The chance of being discovered in maint is pretty hard mode too.

Oh no the HoP has to do his job because some assistants might want maint access this is a valid reason for giving assistants maint every round

The HoP is usually only available at the beginning of the round and probably won't respond to an assistant that wants maint access.

Stupid, if anything this proves medical doctors should have maint, not assistants

Having maint access as a doctor would be nice but I don't think it's really suited for them because doctors must focus more on making people not die rather than finding dead bodies while assistants have the time seek out dead people should they choose to be helpful.

Equally stupid

I don't think it's stupid that assistants prefer to travel by maint so they don't have to deal with other people or get stuck in crossfire.

No because they're usually powergaming tryhards who 'stumble' into cult bases in maint and scream CULT over radio

Having their cult base discovered leaves no one to blame but the culitsts. Runes shouldn't be left lying around and assistants aren't the only people capable of discovering them. Assistants lurking in maint are great targets for the cult because they're usually alone and no one will notice if they're stun papered in maint.

Grey tide apologist meme?

No, just a joke m8.

If you really want to force the 'grey tide' stereotype, wouldn't forcing assistants to break into maint and hack in to get loot actually do that better than keeping it?

No, grey tiders get banned but I'm guessing they aren't which is why people are getting so angry.

I really think there should be a server poll so everyone can find and vote on this without needing a forum account that has a minimum post count because this is a pretty big thing.

deputi wrote:

Sec officers don't get maint access you stupid shitter.

Relax, I meant security officers that get maint access from the HoP because that's what most officers do.

YOU MEAN EXACTLY LIKE ASSISTANTS SHOULD DO?



Dude go back to your stun prod making you might get behind on your quota.

deputi wrote:]I really think there should be a server poll so everyone can find and vote on this without needing a forum account that has a minimum post count because this is a pretty big thing.

Excuse me but no we should have players who actually play on our server frequently and contribute to the community on the forums making these decisions not grey tide griefer #3412

paprika wrote: Excuse me but no we should have players who actually play on our server frequently and contribute to the community on the forums making these decisions not grey tide griefer #3412

>Forum Users
>Playing Frequently

I am against this change because it specifically denies enjoyment to many people for no purpose other than to deny them enjoyment. This is spiteful and mean.

YOU MEAN EXACTLY LIKE ASSISTANTS SHOULD DO?

No, I do not think assistants should have to bother the HoP every round for access they should already have. I also advocate giving security officers roundstart maint access.

Dude go back to your stun prod making you might get behind on your quota.

Sick burn.

Excuse me but no we should have players who actually play on our server frequently and contribute to the community on the forums making these decisions not grey tide griefer #3412

Majority should rule and by looking at the forum polls it's clear that the server population barely voted on this poll. Are you saying the people that play on the server are not contributing to the community? Aren't they keeping the server populated? Are they not able to have a say in the decisions that affect them because they choose to play the game and not frequent the forums? Do you really think the people that want to keep the access are all grey tide griefers? The few people that heard about this and don't use the forums came here to make a forum account and almost had their opinion invalidated because they lacked a post count. I'd really like to hear SoS's reasoning about not having a server poll on such a massive change.

Assistants having access frequently helps me as antag. I almost always steal one off the roving bands of greygoons in the halls and use it to access precious maintenance. I THINK there are very valid reasons in this thread for removing maint access, but I really don't want to see maintenance become engineering's super exclusive playground with a few IDs on the station that can grant you access to it.

If assistants keep access, sec is getting it by default too, that's all I'm saying. There is absolutely no reason for security to not have maint.

Don't mind assistants not having maint but officers not having it has been an annoyance for the longest time.

Give assistants AND sec maint. access.

According to Github, Assistant maint access has already been removed. This topic should be locked if that is the case.

Alex Crimson wrote:According to Github, Assistant maint access has already been removed. This topic should be locked if that is the case.

Yes so we can transistion smoothly to the complaining and drama thread

Folks, we have bickered over whether assistants should keep or lose maint access for years.

Stop fighting over it.

The reason why they have maint access, and this reason has been established and confirmed so many times before, is to keep that cesspool of players out of the main halls. That's all there is to it. Every time maint access has been removed we see a MASSIVE increase in greytiding, which prompts us to give it back. Why are we even making another poll over this thing? It'll get reverted in a couple of weeks at the latest when people realize "oh right assistants are shitheads outside of maint".

Admins can actually do their jobs and ban people who use assistant as an excuse to grief now though, if we leave the server option on it'll die down in a week or so. Yes, they'll stop being shitters, kicking and screaming.

I'd like to apologize to all the admins who are going to be forced to do their jobs and hand out assistant/server bans. It's still against the rules.

Also, I'd like to say that I spent most of the day playing a couple rounds of HoP and I saw maybe 3-4 assistants on sybil asking for maint access, the rest of them usually did stupid shit but generally never hurt anyone, so I don't see the problem. If you want maint, ask HoP. It's not that big of a deal.

paprika wrote:Admins can actually do their jobs and ban people who use assistant as an excuse to grief now though, if we leave the server option on it'll die down in a week or so. Yes, they'll stop being shitters, kicking and screaming.

I'd like to apologize to all the admins who are going to be forced to do their jobs and hand out assistant/server bans. It's still against the rules.

Also, I'd like to say that I spent most of the day playing a couple rounds of HoP and I saw maybe 3-4 assistants on sybil asking for maint access, the rest of them usually did stupid shit but generally never hurt anyone, so I don't see the problem. If you want maint, ask HoP. It's not that big of a deal.

You don't know anything about the situation with assistants, do you?
Maintenance access has nothing to do with assistant shittery in the slightest,the only point would be to make the job less appealing, and I doubt it would even succeed at that. If you want less assistant shittery, remove their ability to roll for antagonist, as most people choose it to roll antag for an easier time and when they don't, they instead shit up the round as if they were an antag.

Saegrimr wrote:The problem is not with the job, but with the person playing the job.

After 5 pages I think this still sums up the argument pretty well.

Give it a week.

Right now I'm seeing cargo either 100 percent deserted, or 90% deserted on round start, with those people disappearing into maint within minutes of game start.

Hopefully this will decrease over time but I'm not confident this will occur.

paprika wrote:Excuse me but no we should have players who actually play on our server frequently and contribute to the community on the forums making these decisions not grey tide griefer #3412

And how do you know that everyone who votes on this plays on the server frequently?

Violaceus wrote:Assistants without maint. access will cause more chaos and greytiding.

Then they were going to greytide anyway. That's no excuse and "muh maint access" is no excuse to riot in game and act like the shits that got people convinced to remove the access in the first place.

Well, admins could just ban greytide.

This page's arguments sound familiar... OH WAIT, I was reading them for the past four pages.

It's ALMOST like the same chain of argument is being reused over and over again!

oranges wrote:Right now I'm seeing cargo either 100 percent deserted, or 90% deserted on round start, with those people disappearing into maint within minutes of game start.

Hopefully this will decrease over time but I'm not confident this will occur.

Oranges stop being a faggot and report them to admin for jobbans. Cargo is a job that can be reserved for people who contribute to cargo.

YOU'RE part of the cancer here you if you don't report it you retard.

You should not be punished for just goofing off in a low key role. If your not a head of staff/Sec and you've done the bare minimum responsibility to your role (Setting up sing) then you should be free to go.

I mean, are we going to start warning people for goofing off now?

It's not so much that it's more that assistant already exists as a low-key goof off role and some people actually like playing cargo to do their jobs, a jobban would be in order for people who fuck off. Like, Engineers aren't so bad because engineers don't really have a -job- outside of fixing shit so yellow tide all day but cargo actually has a job and while it's boring there's always engineering (which has more job slots than cargo tech actually)

If someone does their initial job, such as setting up the singularity or grabbing a few crates for cargo, then they should be allowed to do what they want. If the Engineer is looting a hardsuit get Security on the issue, we've never had any problems with allowing people to go build their forts or create a unique contraption.

I'm starting to come around to the idea of allowing Assistants to keep maintenance access.

We should be encouraging creativity not punishing it to force role play. Removing assistants maintenance access won't stop the bad players from being bad. Its still extremely easy to get into maintenance and worst case scenario those bad players will migrate to other roles that have maintenance access if they are so desperate.

Punish the bad players who grey tide and make life hell, don't punish everyone because they happen to want to play as a Assistant.

I agree with Steelpoint. Honestly I've never seen the maintenance access as the problem. If I'm playing as the chef and some grey fucks try to jump into my kitchen, what the fuck does it matter if they have maint? Most shit happens in the halls or department break-ins.

Antag is now incredibly easy I find. Maint is basically deserted and you can do whatever the hell youwant. It's not a good change and I don't know why something this controversial was changed based on a 5 vote difference in a poll of over 70.

Not only that but rumours that you just pushed through Thai change to get security main t access are really concerning.

deputi wrote:Majority should rule

er, why

Also, you guys are missing the point. It's not to punish bad players. It's to reduce the amount of people that play assistant. Way too many people play assistant over anything else. That is a problem, because they do not necessarily contribute anything to being a crew of space station.

Lo6a4evskiy wrote:

deputi wrote:Majority should rule

er, why

Also, you guys are missing the point. It's not to punish bad players. It's to reduce the amount of people that play assistant. Way too many people play assistant over anything else. That is a problem, because they do not necessarily contribute anything to being a crew of space station.

The problem is tied to population as well. With 80 people on the station there will be a vast number of assistants no matter what. The solution is to bring people over to Badger, not to use this as an excuse as a fuck you to certain assistant players. Breaking the law is an important part of the game, and not synonymous with being a dickhead. Maint is the place to do it and now that's far less interesting, again, for no other reason than because you guys don't like how some people play the game.

Stickymayhem wrote:With 80 people on the station there will be a vast number of assistants no matter what.

The important fact that literally everyone keeps forgetting. Sybil is not supposed to have that many people. That's not an 'lol should be' opinion argument, that's clearly demonstrated by the number of open job slots. 80 people means 20 assistants, and the only thing that fixes that is a robust Head of Personnel and assistants asking for job changes. Of course, there also is this other server, but PSSHHH

I'm not talking about 80 people. I'm talking about 30, 40 at most. There are assistants no matter the population and there are at least five assistants, which is most slots we have for any other job, most of the time. That is the problem, not that shitty people play it. The job is not useful enough for it to be one of the most popular jobs out there.

Stickymayhem wrote:Breaking the law is an important part of the game, and not synonymous with being a dickhead.

I would like to see security player who thinks there aren't enough people breaking the law. I personally never get bored as security.

Stickymayhem wrote:Maint is the place to do it and now that's far less interesting, again, for no other reason than because you guys don't like how some people play the game.

Er, what's wrong with that? We have rules because we don't like certain ways that people play the game. How is this any different? This is the point, we don't like the certain ways people play the game, that's the reason behind pretty much any rule.

Where were you with that argument when lizards were restricted from heads?

paprika wrote:

oranges wrote:Right now I'm seeing cargo either 100 percent deserted, or 90% deserted on round start, with those people disappearing into maint within minutes of game start.

Hopefully this will decrease over time but I'm not confident this will occur.

Oranges stop being a faggot and report them to admin for jobbans. Cargo is a job that can be reserved for people who contribute to cargo.

YOU'RE part of the cancer here you if you don't report it you retard.

I did report it, I don't know if the admins did anything though as I never got a followup

Steelpoint wrote:If someone does their initial job, such as setting up the singularity or grabbing a few crates for cargo, then they should be allowed to do what they want. If the Engineer is looting a hardsuit get Security on the issue, we've never had any problems with allowing people to go build their forts or create a unique contraption.

Thats the thing, these people turboed off within 3 seconds. I basically ran cargo by myself, including loading the original crates.

I've had this experience in engineering. At least four rounds, two as CE and two as a regular engineer, a fully-crewed engineering department has run off almost if not immediately. Grab gloves, grab suits, get lost.

One round the CE was insta-braindead and everyone but me ran off and I had to have the AI open the CE's office so I could actually go outside.

I've also seen non-antag engineers hacking their own doors, and not just to learn the wires. Cutting all the wires to the SMES units, disassembling the PA, things like that. This is all within the last week.

There have always been shits around who do these kinds of things, but the number of incidents has increased dramatically since access was revoked.

Taking away assistant access to maintenance does have the benefit of forcing people into actually _having_ jobs, but it does not force them into _doing_ those jobs. Assistant having access to maintenance was a way for greytide players to alleviate their need to greytide without severely inconveniencing people who were trying to do their jobs, at least directly. Now, they're pushed -- intentionally -- into roles which allow them to be even more disruptive, and I think they're taking advantage of that ability to disrupt in some kind of rebellion against the rule change.

oranges wrote:

Steelpoint wrote:If someone does their initial job, such as setting up the singularity or grabbing a few crates for cargo, then they should be allowed to do what they want. If the Engineer is looting a hardsuit get Security on the issue, we've never had any problems with allowing people to go build their forts or create a unique contraption.

Thats the thing, these people turboed off within 3 seconds. I basically ran cargo by myself, including loading the original crates.

So, assistants are useful as a ghetto?
Edit: If we give maint back can we use them as always valid?

Assuming such players can't or won't be weeded out, yeah, pretty much.

Its perfect, though.

The change forces the more shitty players to surface into a more broad view. They keep it up, Ahelp, and they get punished. If its a repeat offense, we can hope the administration kicks them out for being shit, while the decent players stay. At least, thats how I'm seeing this change.

If they are being shitty they are griefing someone somewhere somehow. The idea that being able to be maint somehow generates phantom grief for a nonspecific group of people who apparently never Ahelp is absurd. Removing assistant maint might have good or bad effects, it probably isn't a miracle tonic to cure all our ills though.

New idea: Assistants don't get antag, but keep maint? The only thing I'm really concerned about is powergamers using assistant because it's very attractive for people playing antag since there's no real responsibility and free maint access. This has given assistants the stigma more than anything, they're often traitors. Asshole assistants get banned. It's one or the other.

Assistants losing antag status would make the average Assistant almost as trustworthy as a Security Officer.

Besides, the whole premise of the Assistant makes it very attractive to people. A low key role with minimal access that has no responsibilities to anyone.

paprika wrote:This has given assistants the stigma more than anything, they're often traitors.

Except they're not. The ratio of traitors in assistants is exactly the same as any non implanted role, you just think there's more often traitors because there's more assistants than anything else to be traitors.

Now rumors like "Assistants get better antag chances!" on the other hand do draw some idiots to the position to be terrible.

We had over 80 people on today, at that point "assistant" doesn't become a choice - it's mandatory for many people.

That round I saw countless braindead assistants... it was actually pretty disheartening.

I've moved on to atmos tech for the perfect balance of powergayman, no responsibility, and still potential for fun if I don't get that antag role. This change doesn't do anything except decrease the quality of life for a role that filled a useful niche.

Just make sec have maint access, makes sec more attractive since I don't have to endure the HoP hellhole just to find actual antags...

I'd like to remind everyone here that sec used to have maint until scaredy removed it one day for absolutely no reason.

I think the reasoning for that was that the detective should be the guy that trips over fresh corpses first, not the officers.

We really shouldn't be phrasing this as 'why should assistants have maint access removed' so much as 'Why should assistants have maint access.'

When we look over the purpose of assistant to what they're given against the purpose of other jobs and what they're given, there are numerous jobs that should have maint access that don't while assistants have it. Medbay staff and security staff are some of the prime examples as they are the reactionary forces on the station whom have it to be their prime duty to get somewhere and help people.

What is an assistant's job and why do they need maint access?

Nothing and they don't.

It's not a punishment for being shitty, it's not some big hit to the greytide, it's simply because they don't need it and that's been a good enough reason to take it away or keep it away from other jobs.

Why do engineers and atmos get it? Because that's where they do their job.

If you want maint as an assistant just man up and ask the HoP.

From what I observed after this change you have:
-Assistants going braindead. Dunno if it's happening more frequently.
-HoP getting burnt out on the job/access changes.
-Jobs being overfilled.
-Clown slots opening up more?
-More holes to get into maint.
-A nice, empty maint. Seems more dangerous now.
-Cargo Techs/Engineers fucking off roundstart more often.
-Nothing has really changed in terms of shit assistants. Or just players in general.

This has happened every time the config has been changed. Be patient, would you? The shitters will get burnt out that their 'do nothing' job is gone and either play a real job or fuck off, while new players aren't immediately biased against when they play greyshirt as if they're the worst people on the station.

Shit we should've just added more detective slots

dam good idea

No not really, the number of security slots is fine as it is.

With maintenance for assistance gone I wager anything with maintenance access included will be set to a higher priority, fucking off in these departments may have a slight chance of rising, the value of welders and crowbars increased, and every map i've played on in /tg/ (besides mini station) has long ass maintenance (efficacy station OH HO BOY) along with a not so recent update of having items in maintenance RNG now which with the less access of maintenance seemed kind of unnecessary. But I assumed the RNG was to mess with the grey shirts beating each other for sunglasses and coins. Maintenance access may be gone but it won't stop bored players to create doors leading into them or harassing the HoP even more so. Not to mention it makes cultist's job a wee bit more harder, fighting the blerb may make it more difficult for the crew and purging xeno nests has a good chance of taking longer.

Yeah theres a lift maintenance access but competence in this game is an acquired skill, one that is as elusive of a bluespacing wizard