Suicide and gameplay implications

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Supermichael777
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Suicide and gameplay implications

Post by Supermichael777 » #396099

Alright so this seems to be controversial enough in the ongoing parade of PRs trying to alter how cloners handle suicide (which keep getting alternatives PRs that do basically the same thing only without a 50+ long comment argument). Its probably time to do a full player poll on what suicide should actually do instead on relying on a concept of how it fits into the game that may no longer reflect player wishes.

As far as i am aware there are 2.5 camps

1.A Suicide is an "I don't want to continue my round as this character" button.
The current in code theory, applied inconsistently across multiple ways of a character reentering a round.
1.B Suicide is an "I'm done for the round button".
Some of group one want people to stop suiciding to grab ghost roles.

2.A Suicide should just be a die instantly button.
What some players seem to want.
2.B And a separate DNR button for players who don't want to come back
What a subset of those players want


My position personalty is 2B due to maximizing control but some people seem to have a moral objection to tactical suicide. In a game with evil clowns and literal suicide bomb implants.
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Re: Suicide and gameplay implications

Post by Bluespace » #396106

Ghosting is "I don't want to do anything but be a ghost." it locks you out of future roles entirely afaik, you don't even get ghost role rolls.
Suiciding is "I don't want to play this job/character/situation right now." There have been instances where i've wanted to play a round again after suiciding, but that's often because of the gamemode being fun to play.
Suiciding either needs to make you non-cloneable even at higher tiers, or allow you to be cloned even at roundstart.
I don't think it's really a pressing issue though.
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Re: Suicide and gameplay implications

Post by Bluespace » #396107

Add-on: There needs to be a specific setting that will return you to lobby if you don't get roundstart antag. Not sure how it'd work with the job selector though.
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Re: Suicide and gameplay implications

Post by RandomMarine » #396109

I don't see the point in restricting people from taking ghost roles based on how they ghosted.
Uncloneable suicides is a relic of old design that I don't see the point of keeping around, but granted if you suicide for no apparent reason you shouldn't have any right to complain if your body's taken to the chef before genetics.

To break it down, I'd like the suicide verb to be the I want to die, right now, in a potentially amusing manner based on what I have on hand function.
Ghost is the I want to quit my current role and observe, and possibly take a ghost role function.
The I want to stop playing the video game button is the X in the upper right of the window.
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Re: Suicide and gameplay implications

Post by Yakumo_Chen » #396196

I would argue that if you pressed the ready button you should make some effort to contribute to the game even if you didn't get antag, otherwise you are literally just antag rolling and not treating this like a role-playing game, which it is.

But then again I will suicide if the round is cult because playing against it as security is such a hopeless chore that I would rather just play a different game.
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Re: Suicide and gameplay implications

Post by Cobby » #396218

Suicide should be 1A unless you make every suicide take the same amount of time as it would to beat yourself to death. an instant "haha nope" button to get out of conversion (which some people have explicitly argued in said prs) is super shitty.

If you want to get out of conversion ICly then hit yourself constantly until crit than ghost so there's some counterplay to it if someone manages to stun you.
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Re: Suicide and gameplay implications

Post by RandomMarine » #396222

Cobby wrote:Suicide should be 1A unless you make every suicide take the same amount of time as it would to beat yourself to death. an instant "haha nope" button to get out of conversion (which some people have explicitly argued in said prs) is super shitty.

If you want to get out of conversion ICly then hit yourself constantly until crit than ghost so there's some counterplay to it if someone manages to stun you.
You can't suicide when stunned or cuffed and if your captive ever manages to uncuff you've already fucked up big time.
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Re: Suicide and gameplay implications

Post by Cobby » #396223

RandomMarine wrote:
Cobby wrote:Suicide should be 1A unless you make every suicide take the same amount of time as it would to beat yourself to death. an instant "haha nope" button to get out of conversion (which some people have explicitly argued in said prs) is super shitty.

If you want to get out of conversion ICly then hit yourself constantly until crit than ghost so there's some counterplay to it if someone manages to stun you.
You can't suicide when stunned or cuffed and if your captive ever manages to uncuff you've already fucked up big time.
They can hit themselves repeatedly then and succumb or fight back then. Don't use the instant "I am bored and don't want to play the round anymore" button.
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Re: Suicide and gameplay implications

Post by Dr_bee » #396239

Why exactly does suicide prevent resurrection in the first place? It is a design decision I have never seen justified.

Goonstation has had suicide let you be cloneable for awhile now if I remember correctly. They just have a DNR verb for the uncloneable part.

If you are going to add amusing ways to suicide, which is effectively incentivizing it, why make it permadeath? Someone make an argument in favor of the status quo other than "thats how its always been" please.
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Re: Suicide and gameplay implications

Post by JStheguy » #396289

Because if you are killing yourself it is pretty clear you have no interest playing the round as that character, seeing as how you went and instakilled them for, at best, an amusing line of text.
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Re: Suicide and gameplay implications

Post by IkeTG » #396337

Bluespace wrote:Ghosting is "I don't want to do anything but be a ghost." it locks you out of future roles entirely afaik, you don't even get ghost role rolls.
I'm a bit confused, is this your opinion on what ghosting is or was it changed to where players who ghosted can't use ghost roles?
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Re: Suicide and gameplay implications

Post by Bombadil » #396345

Ive suicided using autocloners to fix missing limbs.

So now i have to slowly beat myself to death? Stupid.


Much cleaner to just use the suicide verb.
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Re: Suicide and gameplay implications

Post by Shaps-cloud » #396373

Dr_bee wrote:Why exactly does suicide prevent resurrection in the first place? It is a design decision I have never seen justified.

Goonstation has had suicide let you be cloneable for awhile now if I remember correctly. They just have a DNR verb for the uncloneable part.

If you are going to add amusing ways to suicide, which is effectively incentivizing it, why make it permadeath? Someone make an argument in favor of the status quo other than "thats how its always been" please.
Probably so people know not to waste time trying to revive someone who wasn't interested in playing
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Re: Suicide and gameplay implications

Post by Dr_bee » #396375

Shaps-cloud wrote:
Dr_bee wrote:Why exactly does suicide prevent resurrection in the first place? It is a design decision I have never seen justified.

Goonstation has had suicide let you be cloneable for awhile now if I remember correctly. They just have a DNR verb for the uncloneable part.

If you are going to add amusing ways to suicide, which is effectively incentivizing it, why make it permadeath? Someone make an argument in favor of the status quo other than "thats how its always been" please.
Probably so people know not to waste time trying to revive someone who wasn't interested in playing
There is already a message for that if they close the window or use a ghost role, plus the addition of a DNR verb would solve that problem.
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Re: Suicide and gameplay implications

Post by bandit » #396388

do none of you remember the cancer that was multiverse swords and/or zombies pulling suicides who didn't want to play anymore
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Re: Suicide and gameplay implications

Post by Mark9013100 » #396600

Bluespace wrote:Ghosting is "I don't want to do anything but be a ghost." it locks you out of future roles entirely afaik, you don't even get ghost role rolls.
No. I've seen people ghost at roundstart when they don't get antag and become a sentient virus. Ghosting needs to be fixed.
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Re: Suicide and gameplay implications

Post by Grazyn » #396818

Ghosting doesn't "need to be fixed", it was never meant to lock you out of ghost roles and this is the first time I've ever read the suggestion that it should. As someone said, there are instances where you can't commit suicide (walking in a room full of n2o, pumped full of morphine, someone keeping you permastuncuffed ecc. ) and it makes no sense to punish players by locking them out of ghost roles because they didn't wish to look at a static screen for the rest of the round (or for how long it would take to resist through all the layers of shackles you've been put under)

Also the status of suicides is a policy issue, not a coding one.
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Re: Suicide and gameplay implications

Post by oranges » #396832

suiciding preventing cloning is entirely around antags suiciding after getting caught.

The fact that it's irrelevant because ghosting exists is kind of ignored I suppose

at the very least the suicide methods are far funnier, you can think of ghosting as just a non flavored suicide.
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Re: Suicide and gameplay implications

Post by RandomMarine » #396894

oranges wrote:suiciding preventing cloning is entirely around antags suiciding after getting caught.
Could you elaborate? Suiciding adding noclone existed long before autocloning was ever a thing, and any antag thrown into the permabrig with a pre-scan can still just punch themselves to death to get around it.

Maybe add a machine by the permabrig that security can use to eliminate any pre-scans that somebody may have.
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Re: Suicide and gameplay implications

Post by Dr_bee » #396954

RandomMarine wrote:
oranges wrote:suiciding preventing cloning is entirely around antags suiciding after getting caught.
Could you elaborate? Suiciding adding noclone existed long before autocloning was ever a thing, and any antag thrown into the permabrig with a pre-scan can still just punch themselves to death to get around it.

Maybe add a machine by the permabrig that security can use to eliminate any pre-scans that somebody may have.
Plus using cloning to escape sounds like a great counterplay to sec. Sec should have access to the cloning records and be given the ability to delete them in return.
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Re: Suicide and gameplay implications

Post by iamgoofball » #396986

what part of "suicide is the i am done playing the game" button do you not understand
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Re: Suicide and gameplay implications

Post by iksyp » #397005

ghosting is much better of a "i am done playing the game" button, seeing as people use it when they get caught by security and want to rage in deadchat
If people are abusing suicide and prescans to escape conversion antags that's an admin issue
The solution as I see it is to disable prescans when you suicide and add a DNR if you really don't want to rejoin the game.
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Re: Suicide and gameplay implications

Post by bandit » #397060

iksyp wrote:ghosting is much better of a "i am done playing the game" button, seeing as people use it when they get caught by security and want to rage in deadchat
People only use ghosting in this situation because you can't suicide when restrained/cuffed.
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Re: Suicide and gameplay implications

Post by Cobby » #397072

Does anyone remember the argument about adding the traitor item that would give your body the suicide message on examine?

It wasn't added because suicide is the "I want to opt out of the round as the current character" button.
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Re: Suicide and gameplay implications

Post by Bluespace » #397074

Cobby wrote:Does anyone remember the argument about adding the traitor item that would give your body the suicide message on examine?

It wasn't added because suicide is the "I want to opt out of the round as the current character" button.
Hey this was my idea. :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
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Re: Suicide and gameplay implications

Post by PKPenguin321 » #397117

iamgoofball wrote:what part of "suicide is the i am done playing the game" button do you not understand
i dont really have a strong opinion on this but this is not how you argue, this is just an assertion with no argument
you cant keep repeating an assertion until it is true, you have to spend at least a modicum of effort to prove your assertion is true
even if it is already true you still must prove it since it's being challenged to begin with
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Re: Suicide and gameplay implications

Post by iamgoofball » #397367

PKPenguin321 wrote:
iamgoofball wrote:what part of "suicide is the i am done playing the game" button do you not understand
i dont really have a strong opinion on this but this is not how you argue, this is just an assertion with no argument
you cant keep repeating an assertion until it is true, you have to spend at least a modicum of effort to prove your assertion is true
even if it is already true you still must prove it since it's being challenged to begin with
it's not a fucking "assertion" if it's already fucking true

IT IS PROVEN BY THE FACT THAT MOST METHODS OF MANUALLY REVIVING A CORPSE THAT HAS USED THE SUICIDE VERB IS BLOCKED

STOP ARGUING IN BAD FAITH
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Re: Suicide and gameplay implications

Post by Dr_bee » #397379

iamgoofball wrote:
PKPenguin321 wrote:
iamgoofball wrote:what part of "suicide is the i am done playing the game" button do you not understand
i dont really have a strong opinion on this but this is not how you argue, this is just an assertion with no argument
you cant keep repeating an assertion until it is true, you have to spend at least a modicum of effort to prove your assertion is true
even if it is already true you still must prove it since it's being challenged to begin with
it's not a fucking "assertion" if it's already fucking true

IT IS PROVEN BY THE FACT THAT MOST METHODS OF MANUALLY REVIVING A CORPSE THAT HAS USED THE SUICIDE VERB IS BLOCKED

STOP ARGUING IN BAD FAITH
Your reasoning for it is "it is this way because it is this way" which is circular reasoning. Come up with an actual argument as to why this is a feature of suicide when a DNR verb would be perfectly fine for this.
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Re: Suicide and gameplay implications

Post by Selea » #397531

Goof, if you didn't got it:
Yes, that is this way now. But entire theme about question, if we should to change it. And if we should, how to change it.

Personally, I would like to make DNR separate verb from suicide.
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Re: Suicide and gameplay implications

Post by Saegrimr » #397532

Closing the game window is the "i am done playing the game" button.
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Re: Suicide and gameplay implications

Post by Selea » #397535

Need to point at fact, that separate button to quit round should exist. Because sometimes I closing client ro restart it for technical reasons.
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Re: Suicide and gameplay implications

Post by iamgoofball » #397544

Yeah no fuck this Im merging ghost and suicide fuck you buddy I know damn well this is all about using autoclone and suicide as getout of jail free

You dont get to be autistic.
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Re: Suicide and gameplay implications

Post by DemonFiren » #397556

But you do, eh, goof?
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Re: Suicide and gameplay implications

Post by XDTM » #397561

Well yeah, the whole point is to make tactical suicide possible. However, the fact that it's instant may be unbalanced.

Making the body carry the DNR status is dumb, by the way, when there are ways to bodyswitch. A DNR ghost verb is far cleaner.
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Re: Suicide and gameplay implications

Post by iamgoofball » #397563

"THIS KILLS TACTICAL SUICIDE
XDTM wrote:Well yeah, the whole point is to make tactical suicide
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Re: Suicide and gameplay implications

Post by Wyzack » #397565

I always liked suicide over killing yourself in other ways because a lot of the messages are pretty funny. I usually won't do it unless I am planning on taking a ghostroll or leaving, but I don't see the harm in allowing resurrection of suicides since ghosting fills the role of "im out and im fucking staying out" quite nicely at the moment
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Re: Suicide and gameplay implications

Post by iamgoofball » #397570

TACTICAL
SUICIDE
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Re: Suicide and gameplay implications

Post by kevinz000 » #397607

iamgoofball wrote:TACTICAL
SUICIDE
that would be called c4 bombcoring the hopline instead of your regular oxygen tank suicide, goof.
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Re: Suicide and gameplay implications

Post by PKPenguin321 » #397662

iamgoofball wrote:TACTICAL
SUICIDE
Literally doesn't happen. You got played

Why would you EVER instantly abandon and give up all your gear to an assailant rather than at least fighting them to the death
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Re: Suicide and gameplay implications

Post by Wyzack » #397663

I dont understand the asspain, it is only a bit faster than just beating yourself to death
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Re: Suicide and gameplay implications

Post by Grazyn » #397665

Goof is right, tactical suicide exists and yes, it involves a hidden autocloner (which is the issue being debated)
Example, you're being cornered by sec, suicide, BAM immediately start regenerating in your secret hideout
versus
try to fight it out, they get a lucky stun, they either kill you or you end up cuffed and unable to suicide until they leave you alone in perma long enough to resist and free your hands. Even worse, they know you have an autocloner so they put you on n2o and it's over. Can't ghost it out because ghosting doesn't trigger the cloner.

So yeah, make suicide disable autocloning and it would be consistent across the board, the amount of people resisting the idea makes me think that goof is indeed right and tactical suicide does exist
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Re: Suicide and gameplay implications

Post by Wyzack » #397666

Oh that makes sense from a gameplay perspective. Setting up an autocloner is a lot of prepwork though. Could we make suicide take longer unless you are using something like a gun? It would keep the fun of suicide and require traitors to be well armed or do a little extra prep with a cyanide tooth implant or something to pull off the strat
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Re: Suicide and gameplay implications

Post by Dr_bee » #397681

Wyzack wrote:Oh that makes sense from a gameplay perspective. Setting up an autocloner is a lot of prepwork though. Could we make suicide take longer unless you are using something like a gun? It would keep the fun of suicide and require traitors to be well armed or do a little extra prep with a cyanide tooth implant or something to pull off the strat
Yeah adding a delay would be a nice way to let people stop someone from murdering themselves without a gun.

The fact tactical suicides with an autocloner requires prepwork, and already comes with a downside of losing all of the persons gear means I think it should stay in the game, however more ways to counter it is always a good thing to add.

Like how about having all cloners on station share the same cloning records, or say the location of other cloners similar to how comm consoles work with mass recalls.

It would mean that hidden autocloning would work against lazy sec, but the moment anyone does even a little bit of detective work then the plan doesnt work anymore.

also if there is anything that should be prohibited it is being cloned after BoH bombing. If you want to pull that off, brainwash a patsy or crate a golem to do it or something.
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Re: Suicide and gameplay implications

Post by onleavedontatme » #397682

Suicide is an a vaguely immersive "I am done with this character" button and a cloner upgrade that ignores that never made sense in the first place.

1A
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Re: Suicide and gameplay implications

Post by Rustledjimm » #397729

Suicide is illegal so you should be brigged for doing so.


But seriously 1A.
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Re: Suicide and gameplay implications

Post by XDTM » #397790

Grazyn wrote:Goof is right, tactical suicide exists and yes, it involves a hidden autocloner (which is the issue being debated)
Example, you're being cornered by sec, suicide, BAM immediately start regenerating in your secret hideout
versus
try to fight it out, they get a lucky stun, they either kill you or you end up cuffed and unable to suicide until they leave you alone in perma long enough to resist and free your hands. Even worse, they know you have an autocloner so they put you on n2o and it's over. Can't ghost it out because ghosting doesn't trigger the cloner.

So yeah, make suicide disable autocloning and it would be consistent across the board, the amount of people resisting the idea makes me think that goof is indeed right and tactical suicide does exist
Sec not taking the opportunity to kill you? No way
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The Clowns Pocket
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Re: Suicide and gameplay implications

Post by The Clowns Pocket » #397793

iamgoofball wrote:what part of "suicide is the i am done playing the game" button do you not understand
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iamgoofball
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Re: Suicide and gameplay implications

Post by iamgoofball » #397805

Saegrimr wrote:Closing the game window is the "i am done playing the game" button.
Negative, its bannable to gib/heavily grief DC'd players because it might of just been a client crash/network errot. You fucking know this you prick, youve banned for it.
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PKPenguin321
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Re: Suicide and gameplay implications

Post by PKPenguin321 » #397826

iamgoofball wrote:
Saegrimr wrote:Closing the game window is the "i am done playing the game" button.
Negative, its bannable to gib/heavily grief DC'd players because it might of just been a client crash/network errot. You fucking know this you prick, youve banned for it.
context dependent, if you DC in the middle of a hostage situation or something after getting cuffed admins wont help you
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Re: Suicide and gameplay implications

Post by Saegrimr » #397828

You know I just remembered that you guys changed cloning so it pulls the ghost in when its done instead of the ghost having to be in the body at all to be scanned.
tedward1337 wrote:Sae is like the racist grandad who everyone laughs at for being racist, but deep down we all know he's right.
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