Page 1 of 2
Suicide and gameplay implications
Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2018 8:44 pm
by Supermichael777
Alright so this seems to be controversial enough in the ongoing parade of PRs trying to alter how cloners handle suicide (which keep getting alternatives PRs that do basically the same thing only without a 50+ long comment argument). Its probably time to do a full player poll on what suicide should actually do instead on relying on a concept of how it fits into the game that may no longer reflect player wishes.
As far as i am aware there are 2.5 camps
1.A Suicide is an "I don't want to continue my round as this character" button.
The current in code theory, applied inconsistently across multiple ways of a character reentering a round.
1.B Suicide is an "I'm done for the round button".
Some of group one want people to stop suiciding to grab ghost roles.
2.A Suicide should just be a die instantly button.
What some players seem to want.
2.B And a separate DNR button for players who don't want to come back
What a subset of those players want
My position personalty is 2B due to maximizing control but some people seem to have a moral objection to tactical suicide. In a game with evil clowns and literal suicide bomb implants.
Re: Suicide and gameplay implications
Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2018 9:04 pm
by Bluespace
Ghosting is "I don't want to do anything but be a ghost." it locks you out of future roles entirely afaik, you don't even get ghost role rolls.
Suiciding is "I don't want to play this job/character/situation right now." There have been instances where i've wanted to play a round again after suiciding, but that's often because of the gamemode being fun to play.
Suiciding either needs to make you non-cloneable even at higher tiers, or allow you to be cloned even at roundstart.
I don't think it's really a pressing issue though.
Re: Suicide and gameplay implications
Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2018 9:06 pm
by Bluespace
Add-on: There needs to be a specific setting that will return you to lobby if you don't get roundstart antag. Not sure how it'd work with the job selector though.
Re: Suicide and gameplay implications
Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2018 9:09 pm
by RandomMarine
I don't see the point in restricting people from taking ghost roles based on how they ghosted.
Uncloneable suicides is a relic of old design that I don't see the point of keeping around, but granted if you suicide for no apparent reason you shouldn't have any right to complain if your body's taken to the chef before genetics.
To break it down, I'd like the suicide verb to be the I want to die, right now, in a potentially amusing manner based on what I have on hand function.
Ghost is the I want to quit my current role and observe, and possibly take a ghost role function.
The I want to stop playing the video game button is the X in the upper right of the window.
Re: Suicide and gameplay implications
Posted: Sun Apr 01, 2018 1:27 am
by Yakumo_Chen
I would argue that if you pressed the ready button you should make some effort to contribute to the game even if you didn't get antag, otherwise you are literally just antag rolling and not treating this like a role-playing game, which it is.
But then again I will suicide if the round is cult because playing against it as security is such a hopeless chore that I would rather just play a different game.
Re: Suicide and gameplay implications
Posted: Sun Apr 01, 2018 2:41 am
by Cobby
Suicide should be 1A unless you make every suicide take the same amount of time as it would to beat yourself to death. an instant "haha nope" button to get out of conversion (which some people have explicitly argued in said prs) is super shitty.
If you want to get out of conversion ICly then hit yourself constantly until crit than ghost so there's some counterplay to it if someone manages to stun you.
Re: Suicide and gameplay implications
Posted: Sun Apr 01, 2018 2:56 am
by RandomMarine
Cobby wrote:Suicide should be 1A unless you make every suicide take the same amount of time as it would to beat yourself to death. an instant "haha nope" button to get out of conversion (which some people have explicitly argued in said prs) is super shitty.
If you want to get out of conversion ICly then hit yourself constantly until crit than ghost so there's some counterplay to it if someone manages to stun you.
You can't suicide when stunned or cuffed and if your captive ever manages to uncuff you've already fucked up big time.
Re: Suicide and gameplay implications
Posted: Sun Apr 01, 2018 3:04 am
by Cobby
RandomMarine wrote:Cobby wrote:Suicide should be 1A unless you make every suicide take the same amount of time as it would to beat yourself to death. an instant "haha nope" button to get out of conversion (which some people have explicitly argued in said prs) is super shitty.
If you want to get out of conversion ICly then hit yourself constantly until crit than ghost so there's some counterplay to it if someone manages to stun you.
You can't suicide when stunned or cuffed and if your captive ever manages to uncuff you've already fucked up big time.
They can hit themselves repeatedly then and succumb or fight back then. Don't use the instant "I am bored and don't want to play the round anymore" button.
Re: Suicide and gameplay implications
Posted: Sun Apr 01, 2018 5:33 am
by Dr_bee
Why exactly does suicide prevent resurrection in the first place? It is a design decision I have never seen justified.
Goonstation has had suicide let you be cloneable for awhile now if I remember correctly. They just have a DNR verb for the uncloneable part.
If you are going to add amusing ways to suicide, which is effectively incentivizing it, why make it permadeath? Someone make an argument in favor of the status quo other than "thats how its always been" please.
Re: Suicide and gameplay implications
Posted: Sun Apr 01, 2018 1:57 pm
by JStheguy
Because if you are killing yourself it is pretty clear you have no interest playing the round as that character, seeing as how you went and instakilled them for, at best, an amusing line of text.
Re: Suicide and gameplay implications
Posted: Sun Apr 01, 2018 5:47 pm
by IkeTG
Bluespace wrote:Ghosting is "I don't want to do anything but be a ghost." it locks you out of future roles entirely afaik, you don't even get ghost role rolls.
I'm a bit confused, is this your opinion on what ghosting is or was it changed to where players who ghosted can't use ghost roles?
Re: Suicide and gameplay implications
Posted: Sun Apr 01, 2018 6:00 pm
by Bombadil
Ive suicided using autocloners to fix missing limbs.
So now i have to slowly beat myself to death? Stupid.
Much cleaner to just use the suicide verb.
Re: Suicide and gameplay implications
Posted: Sun Apr 01, 2018 7:30 pm
by Shaps-cloud
Dr_bee wrote:Why exactly does suicide prevent resurrection in the first place? It is a design decision I have never seen justified.
Goonstation has had suicide let you be cloneable for awhile now if I remember correctly. They just have a DNR verb for the uncloneable part.
If you are going to add amusing ways to suicide, which is effectively incentivizing it, why make it permadeath? Someone make an argument in favor of the status quo other than "thats how its always been" please.
Probably so people know not to waste time trying to revive someone who wasn't interested in playing
Re: Suicide and gameplay implications
Posted: Sun Apr 01, 2018 7:43 pm
by Dr_bee
Shaps-cloud wrote:Dr_bee wrote:Why exactly does suicide prevent resurrection in the first place? It is a design decision I have never seen justified.
Goonstation has had suicide let you be cloneable for awhile now if I remember correctly. They just have a DNR verb for the uncloneable part.
If you are going to add amusing ways to suicide, which is effectively incentivizing it, why make it permadeath? Someone make an argument in favor of the status quo other than "thats how its always been" please.
Probably so people know not to waste time trying to revive someone who wasn't interested in playing
There is already a message for that if they close the window or use a ghost role, plus the addition of a DNR verb would solve that problem.
Re: Suicide and gameplay implications
Posted: Sun Apr 01, 2018 8:03 pm
by bandit
do none of you remember the cancer that was multiverse swords and/or zombies pulling suicides who didn't want to play anymore
Re: Suicide and gameplay implications
Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2018 8:10 pm
by Mark9013100
Bluespace wrote:Ghosting is "I don't want to do anything but be a ghost." it locks you out of future roles entirely afaik, you don't even get ghost role rolls.
No. I've seen people ghost at roundstart when they don't get antag and become a sentient virus. Ghosting needs to be fixed.
Re: Suicide and gameplay implications
Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2018 8:00 am
by Grazyn
Ghosting doesn't "need to be fixed", it was never meant to lock you out of ghost roles and this is the first time I've ever read the suggestion that it should. As someone said, there are instances where you can't commit suicide (walking in a room full of n2o, pumped full of morphine, someone keeping you permastuncuffed ecc. ) and it makes no sense to punish players by locking them out of ghost roles because they didn't wish to look at a static screen for the rest of the round (or for how long it would take to resist through all the layers of shackles you've been put under)
Also the status of suicides is a policy issue, not a coding one.
Re: Suicide and gameplay implications
Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2018 10:32 am
by oranges
suiciding preventing cloning is entirely around antags suiciding after getting caught.
The fact that it's irrelevant because ghosting exists is kind of ignored I suppose
at the very least the suicide methods are far funnier, you can think of ghosting as just a non flavored suicide.
Re: Suicide and gameplay implications
Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2018 3:46 pm
by RandomMarine
oranges wrote:suiciding preventing cloning is entirely around antags suiciding after getting caught.
Could you elaborate? Suiciding adding noclone existed long before autocloning was ever a thing, and any antag thrown into the permabrig with a pre-scan can still just punch themselves to death to get around it.
Maybe add a machine by the permabrig that security can use to eliminate any pre-scans that somebody may have.
Re: Suicide and gameplay implications
Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2018 5:58 pm
by Dr_bee
RandomMarine wrote:oranges wrote:suiciding preventing cloning is entirely around antags suiciding after getting caught.
Could you elaborate? Suiciding adding noclone existed long before autocloning was ever a thing, and any antag thrown into the permabrig with a pre-scan can still just punch themselves to death to get around it.
Maybe add a machine by the permabrig that security can use to eliminate any pre-scans that somebody may have.
Plus using cloning to escape sounds like a great counterplay to sec. Sec should have access to the cloning records and be given the ability to delete them in return.
Re: Suicide and gameplay implications
Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2018 6:35 pm
by iamgoofball
what part of "suicide is the i am done playing the game" button do you not understand
Re: Suicide and gameplay implications
Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2018 7:04 pm
by iksyp
ghosting is much better of a "i am done playing the game" button, seeing as people use it when they get caught by security and want to rage in deadchat
If people are abusing suicide and prescans to escape conversion antags that's an admin issue
The solution as I see it is to disable prescans when you suicide and add a DNR if you really don't want to rejoin the game.
Re: Suicide and gameplay implications
Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2018 10:13 pm
by bandit
iksyp wrote:ghosting is much better of a "i am done playing the game" button, seeing as people use it when they get caught by security and want to rage in deadchat
People only use ghosting in this situation because you can't suicide when restrained/cuffed.
Re: Suicide and gameplay implications
Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2018 10:54 pm
by Cobby
Does anyone remember the argument about adding the traitor item that would give your body the suicide message on examine?
It wasn't added because suicide is the "I want to opt out of the round as the current character" button.
Re: Suicide and gameplay implications
Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2018 10:56 pm
by Bluespace
Cobby wrote:Does anyone remember the argument about adding the traitor item that would give your body the suicide message on examine?
It wasn't added because suicide is the "I want to opt out of the round as the current character" button.
Hey this was my idea. :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
Re: Suicide and gameplay implications
Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2018 1:20 am
by PKPenguin321
iamgoofball wrote:what part of "suicide is the i am done playing the game" button do you not understand
i dont really have a strong opinion on this but this is not how you argue, this is just an assertion with no argument
you cant keep repeating an assertion until it is true, you have to spend at least a modicum of effort to prove your assertion is true
even if it is already true you still must prove it since it's being challenged to begin with
Re: Suicide and gameplay implications
Posted: Thu Apr 05, 2018 12:34 am
by iamgoofball
PKPenguin321 wrote:iamgoofball wrote:what part of "suicide is the i am done playing the game" button do you not understand
i dont really have a strong opinion on this but this is not how you argue, this is just an assertion with no argument
you cant keep repeating an assertion until it is true, you have to spend at least a modicum of effort to prove your assertion is true
even if it is already true you still must prove it since it's being challenged to begin with
it's not a fucking "assertion" if it's already fucking true
IT IS PROVEN BY THE FACT THAT MOST METHODS OF MANUALLY REVIVING A CORPSE THAT HAS USED THE SUICIDE VERB IS BLOCKED
STOP ARGUING IN BAD FAITH
Re: Suicide and gameplay implications
Posted: Thu Apr 05, 2018 1:15 am
by Dr_bee
iamgoofball wrote:PKPenguin321 wrote:iamgoofball wrote:what part of "suicide is the i am done playing the game" button do you not understand
i dont really have a strong opinion on this but this is not how you argue, this is just an assertion with no argument
you cant keep repeating an assertion until it is true, you have to spend at least a modicum of effort to prove your assertion is true
even if it is already true you still must prove it since it's being challenged to begin with
it's not a fucking "assertion" if it's already fucking true
IT IS PROVEN BY THE FACT THAT MOST METHODS OF MANUALLY REVIVING A CORPSE THAT HAS USED THE SUICIDE VERB IS BLOCKED
STOP ARGUING IN BAD FAITH
Your reasoning for it is "it is this way because it is this way" which is circular reasoning. Come up with an actual argument as to why this is a feature of suicide when a DNR verb would be perfectly fine for this.
Re: Suicide and gameplay implications
Posted: Thu Apr 05, 2018 4:07 pm
by Selea
Goof, if you didn't got it:
Yes, that is this way now. But entire theme about question, if we should to change it. And if we should, how to change it.
Personally, I would like to make DNR separate verb from suicide.
Re: Suicide and gameplay implications
Posted: Thu Apr 05, 2018 4:09 pm
by Saegrimr
Closing the game window is the "i am done playing the game" button.
Re: Suicide and gameplay implications
Posted: Thu Apr 05, 2018 4:36 pm
by Selea
Need to point at fact, that separate button to quit round should exist. Because sometimes I closing client ro restart it for technical reasons.
Re: Suicide and gameplay implications
Posted: Thu Apr 05, 2018 4:49 pm
by iamgoofball
Yeah no fuck this Im merging ghost and suicide fuck you buddy I know damn well this is all about using autoclone and suicide as getout of jail free
You dont get to be autistic.
Re: Suicide and gameplay implications
Posted: Thu Apr 05, 2018 5:08 pm
by DemonFiren
But you do, eh, goof?
Re: Suicide and gameplay implications
Posted: Thu Apr 05, 2018 5:10 pm
by XDTM
Well yeah, the whole point is to make tactical suicide possible. However, the fact that it's instant may be unbalanced.
Making the body carry the DNR status is dumb, by the way, when there are ways to bodyswitch. A DNR ghost verb is far cleaner.
Re: Suicide and gameplay implications
Posted: Thu Apr 05, 2018 5:11 pm
by iamgoofball
"THIS KILLS TACTICAL SUICIDE
XDTM wrote:Well yeah, the whole point is to make tactical suicide
Re: Suicide and gameplay implications
Posted: Thu Apr 05, 2018 5:17 pm
by Wyzack
I always liked suicide over killing yourself in other ways because a lot of the messages are pretty funny. I usually won't do it unless I am planning on taking a ghostroll or leaving, but I don't see the harm in allowing resurrection of suicides since ghosting fills the role of "im out and im fucking staying out" quite nicely at the moment
Re: Suicide and gameplay implications
Posted: Thu Apr 05, 2018 5:23 pm
by iamgoofball
TACTICAL
SUICIDE
Re: Suicide and gameplay implications
Posted: Thu Apr 05, 2018 6:49 pm
by kevinz000
iamgoofball wrote:TACTICAL
SUICIDE
that would be called c4 bombcoring the hopline instead of your regular oxygen tank suicide, goof.
Re: Suicide and gameplay implications
Posted: Thu Apr 05, 2018 8:19 pm
by PKPenguin321
iamgoofball wrote:TACTICAL
SUICIDE
Literally doesn't happen. You got played
Why would you EVER instantly abandon and give up all your gear to an assailant rather than at least fighting them to the death
Re: Suicide and gameplay implications
Posted: Thu Apr 05, 2018 8:29 pm
by Wyzack
I dont understand the asspain, it is only a bit faster than just beating yourself to death
Re: Suicide and gameplay implications
Posted: Thu Apr 05, 2018 8:37 pm
by Grazyn
Goof is right, tactical suicide exists and yes, it involves a hidden autocloner (which is the issue being debated)
Example, you're being cornered by sec, suicide, BAM immediately start regenerating in your secret hideout
versus
try to fight it out, they get a lucky stun, they either kill you or you end up cuffed and unable to suicide until they leave you alone in perma long enough to resist and free your hands. Even worse, they know you have an autocloner so they put you on n2o and it's over. Can't ghost it out because ghosting doesn't trigger the cloner.
So yeah, make suicide disable autocloning and it would be consistent across the board, the amount of people resisting the idea makes me think that goof is indeed right and tactical suicide does exist
Re: Suicide and gameplay implications
Posted: Thu Apr 05, 2018 8:43 pm
by Wyzack
Oh that makes sense from a gameplay perspective. Setting up an autocloner is a lot of prepwork though. Could we make suicide take longer unless you are using something like a gun? It would keep the fun of suicide and require traitors to be well armed or do a little extra prep with a cyanide tooth implant or something to pull off the strat
Re: Suicide and gameplay implications
Posted: Thu Apr 05, 2018 9:42 pm
by Dr_bee
Wyzack wrote:Oh that makes sense from a gameplay perspective. Setting up an autocloner is a lot of prepwork though. Could we make suicide take longer unless you are using something like a gun? It would keep the fun of suicide and require traitors to be well armed or do a little extra prep with a cyanide tooth implant or something to pull off the strat
Yeah adding a delay would be a nice way to let people stop someone from murdering themselves without a gun.
The fact tactical suicides with an autocloner requires prepwork, and already comes with a downside of losing all of the persons gear means I think it should stay in the game, however more ways to counter it is always a good thing to add.
Like how about having all cloners on station share the same cloning records, or say the location of other cloners similar to how comm consoles work with mass recalls.
It would mean that hidden autocloning would work against lazy sec, but the moment anyone does even a little bit of detective work then the plan doesnt work anymore.
also if there is anything that should be prohibited it is being cloned after BoH bombing. If you want to pull that off, brainwash a patsy or crate a golem to do it or something.
Re: Suicide and gameplay implications
Posted: Thu Apr 05, 2018 9:44 pm
by onleavedontatme
Suicide is an a vaguely immersive "I am done with this character" button and a cloner upgrade that ignores that never made sense in the first place.
1A
Re: Suicide and gameplay implications
Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 2:29 am
by Rustledjimm
Suicide is illegal so you should be brigged for doing so.
But seriously 1A.
Re: Suicide and gameplay implications
Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 5:43 am
by XDTM
Grazyn wrote:Goof is right, tactical suicide exists and yes, it involves a hidden autocloner (which is the issue being debated)
Example, you're being cornered by sec, suicide, BAM immediately start regenerating in your secret hideout
versus
try to fight it out, they get a lucky stun, they either kill you or you end up cuffed and unable to suicide until they leave you alone in perma long enough to resist and free your hands. Even worse, they know you have an autocloner so they put you on n2o and it's over. Can't ghost it out because ghosting doesn't trigger the cloner.
So yeah, make suicide disable autocloning and it would be consistent across the board, the amount of people resisting the idea makes me think that goof is indeed right and tactical suicide does exist
Sec not taking the opportunity to kill you? No way
Re: Suicide and gameplay implications
Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 5:57 am
by The Clowns Pocket
iamgoofball wrote:what part of "suicide is the i am done playing the game" button do you not understand
Re: Suicide and gameplay implications
Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 7:18 am
by iamgoofball
Saegrimr wrote:Closing the game window is the "i am done playing the game" button.
Negative, its bannable to gib/heavily grief DC'd players because it might of just been a client crash/network errot. You fucking know this you prick, youve banned for it.
Re: Suicide and gameplay implications
Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 9:03 am
by PKPenguin321
iamgoofball wrote:Saegrimr wrote:Closing the game window is the "i am done playing the game" button.
Negative, its bannable to gib/heavily grief DC'd players because it might of just been a client crash/network errot. You fucking know this you prick, youve banned for it.
context dependent, if you DC in the middle of a hostage situation or something after getting cuffed admins wont help you
Re: Suicide and gameplay implications
Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 9:10 am
by Saegrimr
You know I just remembered that you guys changed cloning so it pulls the ghost in when its done instead of the ghost having to be in the body at all to be scanned.