/tg/Station 13

It now takes an obscene effort to topple a rogue AI with the new turret changes.

I already hated how fortified the AI satellite was, the "lobby" turrets and beepsky, having to clear or counter 4 turrets if you dont have a spacesuit and still contending with beepsky, shocked everything, air siphon, borgs, and potentially the traitor who subverted it (if its not a starting traitor).

Now with the massive turret buff, AI can have people stunned/lasered in adjacent rooms and the turrets fire MUCH faster and will fire as long as you have visual contact with them.

There is a balance with the AI and now that balance has gone too far in favor of it. The AI has already (to my dismay) has become an omnipresent figure that makes maintenance access almost mandatory for ANY kind of antagonism and every update seems to make it easier for AI to become the single determining factor in how most rounds play out (tcomms scripts, VoX, etc. all gave the AI huge new powers like muting individuals and murdering them without arousing suspicion and VoX let's AI's communicate even once comms go down).

This turret change is the last straw, even the most robust crewmembers will need around 10 minutes to take out the AI safely, and larger teams of less robust (average) crew will need a full team. Keep in mind that any team assembly is drastically hampered by the fact that any rogue AI worth its salt will cut comms as soon as it needs to, meaning you can't coordinate an attack from any one location - making it easy for beepsky+lasers to wreck multiple crew.

The AI should be strong, but it shouldn't be obscenely strong. Right now its simpler to call the shuttle and just hide somewhere because the shuttle will arrive, load, and depart faster than the station can actually take down a competent rogue AI.

It is known and we're trying to work on a fix that makes them not chain stun people.

In my experience watching people assault the AI, the only thing that's changed are people trying to juke the tazer shots with some stupid computer console/closed locker spam.
Cutting through the r-walls in the bottom haven't changed at all. Neither has telesci, assuming anybody even uses telesci. Why the fuck aren't you using telesci?

The only kicker here is the chain-stunning, which absolutely does need fixing. The new targeting is great though.

You can really easily disassemble turrets now if you block their shots with girders or lockers IIRC.

paprika wrote:You can really easily disassemble turrets now if you block their shots with girders or lockers IIRC.

That's what every armchair hero says.

Then you realize you can't pull-move them from a 1-tile wide breached in the wall... which means you cannot safely take out the AI with a single core breach anymore, you need 2 breaches to properly place girders to disable even one core turret... anything after that means waiting out the bajillion fucking slip sprays that will kill you if you ever have to move when they go off.

The chain stunning wasn't even the worst change, the new LOS turrets are unintuitive and completely unnecessary. Before you would rely on turrets going offline as a timing gap to move computer frames/lockers/girders or attack the turrets themselves. This was a perfectly fine mechanic that required some skill from the crew while reinforcing that the AI's was intentionally imperfect because it should require SOMEONE/SOMETHING to help cover the flaws in its defenses.

Now while the AI will still inevitably fall to the crew, when it starts taking 15+ minutes to carry out an AI execution from start to finish, with tons of risks in between (are the borgs dead? will the subverter show up and murder me?) most of the crew simply opts to hide in maintenance and wait for the shuttle to arrive... because unless you get erect from denying greentext there's absolutely no motivation to try and fight the AI. Crew will only get off their ass if comms are left up, the AI doesn't deny its rogue status, and there's absolutely nothing else going on to distract anyone.

Oldman Robustin wrote:VoX let's AI's communicate even once comms go down

AI's speech goes through regardless since they use intercomms. Borgs can toggle between intercomm/headset modes. (They need to be on headset mode to use any installed encryption keys for departmental channels.)

Saegrimr wrote:In my experience watching people assault the AI, the only thing that's changed are people trying to juke the tazer shots with some stupid computer console/closed locker spam.
Cutting through the r-walls in the bottom haven't changed at all. Neither has telesci, assuming anybody even uses telesci. Why the fuck aren't you using telesci?

The only kicker here is the chain-stunning, which absolutely does need fixing. The new targeting is great though.

In this particular case, telesci got disabled by the AI and borgs or something.

I appreciate the los changes making it less cheesy. Perhaps the behavior when firing outside the room should be less... aggressive. Veritable wall of fire right there.

You can trash an AI with an RCD and a spare matter cartridge or two

When it comes to overall balance of the AI chamber, it's either to hard or to easy. When the AI was on station it took very little effort to breach its chamber, meaning the only way a AI could survive is if it blitzes the crew and kills everyone before they can react, and that still is not oft enough as all it took was one person and about a minute to get in the chamber.

The AI satellite has tipped the scales in the other direction, meaning the humans need to make a far more coordinated attack to take out the AI, and that may not even be enough.

The new turrets just essentially push it over the edge.

callanrockslol wrote:You can trash an AI with an RCD and a spare matter cartridge or two

RCD only works on the front door, which means getting past beepsky and 2 turrets.

You're gonna have to tell me how you beat beepsky with an RCD.

Steelpoint wrote:When it comes to overall balance of the AI chamber, it's either to hard or to easy. When the AI was on station it took very little effort to breach its chamber, meaning the only way a AI could survive is if it blitzes the crew and kills everyone before they can react, and that still is not oft enough as all it took was one person and about a minute to get in the chamber.

The AI satellite has tipped the scales in the other direction, meaning the humans need to make a far more coordinated attack to take out the AI, and that may not even be enough.

The new turrets just essentially push it over the edge.

I honestly didn't have a problem with the old core, only hulks could really bumrush you with no warning and that has always been the nature of hulks.

Players are fragile, but for some reason we have this obsession that the AI needs to be some sort of "boss" who needs a small army to take down.

That makes sense in MALF but malf gives the AI lots of toys, vanilla traitor/subverted AI doesn't need to be a demi-god to play his part on the station.

Last time I tested, it took about two max cap bombs to breach into the AI Core from space, and a further third one to actually kill the AI. The exterior of the AI satellite is covered in Security cameras, a grille outline and a walk way that has to be broken through. The entire out wall of the satellite is covered in two layers of R-Walls with the exception of the front. However the entrance is protected by a whole bunch of easily bolted doors (Ikarrus removed the window you could break through), two turrets and a Securitron.

The chamber proper is protected with the usual assortment, the AI is facing away from the entrance meaning you have to get around the turrets to get the AI. There are four turrets, a flash and liquid dispensers protecting the AI.

This is excluding its loyal Cyborgs.

There are three primary ways to get to the AI, they are:

• Through the front door, arguably the hardest way in.
• Cutting into it from the satellites maintenance room. Probley the best way to get in but you still need to cut through two layers of R-walls.
• Bombing the core, you'll need about two bombs to pull it off.

Things like telesci and subverted independent silicons are the exception.

Really? Complaining about THIS? Sure, the chainstun is bad. Then again, without chainstun, the AI upload for example, would need another layer of defence. Since otherwise its easier to upload laws even with turrets on. Also. Complaining about the AI being to hard to kill? Hell, it isn't even SUPPOSED to be easy to kill. Its the fucking AI.

I have assailed with gibtonite as well as normal bombs. The satellite set up in a vacuum really opens it up to bombing rogue AIs because it is out of the way and in space since admins absolutely shun non antag on station use of explosives except at levels of annihilation where everyone is already dead.

You can kill it with just thrown objects from the south side, don't even need a gun. I think the problem is the turrets are too hostile to expect someone to have time to crack a regular wall on the other approaches.

Lo6a4evskiy wrote:Without chainstun non-rogue AI has no way to protect upload, essentially. Less so core, but still pretty bad. Don't fuck with AI if you don't like chainstun.

Or get the Ablative Armour Vest out of the Armoury. Seriously its pretty good.

Actually forget that advice, I just tested and it seems the turrets almost exclusively target any body part aide from the chest, rending the armour a moot point.

AI and upload were already hardened targets without chainstun.

The whole purpose of the AI is its inter-dependency with the crew. Crew is pretty fucked without an AI, and AI should be pretty fucked without a crew supporting it.

If someone tries to break into the OLD upload to fuck with laws, the AI could delay a forced upload for 5+ minutes simply by screwing with the power and it always bought you enough time that if there was a single living crewmember who gave a shit, someone could intervene and try to stop the uploader.

It's absurd to keep justifying all these changes because the AI can't do EVERYTHING itself when that's always been the point... an AI typically has borgs to fill any gaps in defense anyway. When it's gotten to the point that simply calling the shuttle and hiding is preferable to jumping through a dozen hurdles to kill the AI, you no longer have a compelling conflict - you've made one side overpowered and need to stop shamelessly buffing it more and more simply because it is still capable of being killed.

Lo6a4evskiy wrote:Well, ablative has 50% chance to reflect stun, which is not great considering you will have at least 2 turrets shooting at you most of the time.

But seriously, just use lockers and you will never get hit by stuns.

You won't get hit by stuns, but you don't have enough time to drag a new locker into a forward position and then close it on yourself - so it doesnt really get you in far enough to threaten the AI.

Also the AI will just switch to lasers and bust open your closet with just a few volleys.

I figured this was "I dieded plz nurf" but I gave it a shot, and there really isn't a clear cut method of getting through these defenses.


Hmmm.

AI depending on the crew doesn't mean it shouldn't be able to defend itself. That's actually the entire point of one of the game modes.

Lo6a4evskiy wrote:AI depending on the crew doesn't mean it shouldn't be able to defend itself. That's actually the entire point of one of the game modes.

There is a huge margin between "being able to defend itself" and "being more fortified than Fort Knox"

Breaking into ai core still easy if your prepared only threatening thing is if the ai has a borg on satatlite then it's hard

flazeo25 wrote:Breaking into ai core still easy if your prepared only threatening thing is if the ai has a borg on satatlite then it's hard

By 'if you prepared' you mean
-Space suit
-Lasers
-Thermite/RCD
-Robustness

For a total cumulative access for one person: Captain level. And really that's bare-bones. With the new turrets they'll stare at you and if you go down even once you'll never get back up. You need multiple 'well-prepared' people who know exactly what needs to be done.

You know what would be cool?

Using the newly made code system that lets you essentially use stairs to connect to a different Z-Level. You put the bridge and upload on another level and place the AI back on station.

Oh, even better. Make the AI Core a double layered adventure! By placing it back on station, you make it easier to plan a better defence since you can place the actual AI on a lower level. Meaning the defences can be less about turrets and more about a time delayer, essentially something that slows people down but does not outright stop them from getting the AI.

EDIT: So the AI Core is spread over two levels. The upper (Station) level contains two Turrets, a corridor and a elevator/stairs down to the lower level. The lower level (AI Core) holds a set of barricades/airlocks to break through, a waiting room, the AI's outer core (Which can be two or so turrets and a outer shell) and the AI Inner core which holds the AI proper.

Too bad there's a ton of problems with stairs. Things like bombs, plasma, everything from one z-level doesn't transfer to the other correctly.

The biggest problem that came with designing a AI Core well was the very limited real estate on offer. Even the AI Satellite has constraints since if its too big it starts to take up to much of the area or starts getting too close to the station/edge of space.

Being on a separate Z-level allows for more freedom in creation.

It is fully doable.

The only constraint there would be on this design is that the outer walls would be undestructable. This is to prevent someone from flying around on the Centcom Z-Level. It would also mean you can't teleport thing to/from the AI Core meaning the only way in is a direct frontal assault.

The area would have to be design with multiple approaches in mind.

Actually buffing thermite back up would be nice.

Kuraudo wrote:There is a huge margin between "being able to defend itself" and "being more fortified than Fort Knox"

Believe it or not, not dying in 10 minutes or less to a single attacker or unorganized group is closer self-defense.

No what the fuck don't put AI on separate Z-level that's retarded. Let's not experiment with things that we don't need and that are potentially extremely buggy and weird and fuck we really don't need Z-levels.

Making the AI Chambers multi-level would not be buggy, and it might be the best way to reach a middle ground in AI defence.

The whole point of the AI's defences should be about buying time, not outright stopping a dedicated attack. As much as I love my AI Satellite design I do agree that its just too good of a defence right now. But putting it back on station where it was before hand is just as bad, since then it will be far to easy to breach.

My idea involving the multi-level AI Chamber would place less of a emphasise on turrets and impenetrable obstacles and more of a emphasis on time consuming tasks that have to be surmounted. For example, a idea I've got right now is that there are two sets of Blast Doors connecting the AI Outer core with the entry room. In order to raise the blast doors as a attacker you have to hack into the two side control rooms (1 door to hack), cut the AI camera and open the doors from there, thus gaining access to the AI Outer chamber.

Quick tip Lo6a:

Every effort by the crew in SS13 is completely disorganized. Out of game communication is (rightfully) bannable, so you're left with a really horrid system for trying to organize anything more than lynch mobs.

The game has to be balanced around a bunch of idiots throwing themselves at an enemy in an uncoordinated manner since anything else has been made virtually impossible by our rules and game mechanics.

Nukeops is one of the sole exceptions, but the tendency for "flukeops" to exist just shows that even a pocket tracking device and a forced planning phase for a small team more often than not leads to total chaos and failure.

Trying to do better with 40+ people on a communication channel known for meaningless banter is nothing short of impossible.

Balance for the game you have, not the game you want. The average crew cannot stop an AI in the time it would take for the shuttle to fuel up. arrive, and depart.

On a related note, THIS is the average Malf round:

There are 10 crew trying to push into the AI core but even a novice AI was able to hold them off for several minutes with 2 spamfire turrets blasting anyone who tried to enter through a breach. Once laser fire took out one turret the remaining turret skill kept the crew at bay. Not saying this was ideal strategy in play (I had joined after the delta timer started) but THIS SCREENSHOT is how the crew reacts to any fucking threat on the station, the game has to be balanced around the realities of the game and not same fantasy about 10 players with perfect training, knowledge, and tactics all slam-jamming the AI.

Its not always that bad, had plenty of rounds with engineers just ripping thr AI core to shreds and trashing the turrets, nowhere near as impresive as the old raids on the malf sat but the quality of robust has gone down a bit since then

Now, what I propose is thay we return thr AI to a fortified box where the gravgen is, move the gravgen to the construction site and mak a new construction site near the AIs current position

>Making this easier.
Making stuff easier to take down the AI will only make it so people get less robust we need to make it so people do fail sometimes people need to stop thinking making gameplay easier for the masses are always the best. In this case the AI does need to be more protected its the only way to try and balance malf at the moment.
Not to mention it also balances nuke ops a bit more since they can target the AI before anyone realises.
Not to mention it also made the AI upload more secure making it more of a reward when people were able to infiltrate as a head of department and hack the AI.

Of course the AI defence is ridiculous due to a error which was forgotten about for ages that the porta turrets target down people aswell. It is going to be fixed but making the AI core easy as fuck to attack again wont make the gameplay more fun. Only end faster.

All this needs is for the AI to stay where it is but the turrets to be fixed.

Edit: There is a PR but the code is of poor quality and cannot be merged in its current condition once better code for it is done then its sorted: https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/5229 #BlameJordie

Jalleo wrote:Edit: There is a PR but the code is of poor quality and cannot be merged in its current condition once better code for it is done then its sorted: https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/5229 #BlameJordie

Oh whoops, I meant to close that a week ago since it's a snowflakey bandaid fix and so someone less busy now can make a proper fix for it. Lemme go close it

Problem is, without chainstun AI upload is almost defenseless. With just a locker and a hacked door you can get freeform and upload it while being stunned only once. That's not a whole lot of time for AI to react (pick a time when it's busy, order it to look for something, w/e) and the only thing it CAN do is disable power.

But you can avoid even that. Use locker, walk up to upload, wait for AI to disable power, take freeform, unlock/hack APC, turn the power back on, upload. There you go. Tools and a locker give you rogue AI with NOTHING else required.

Turrets are actually pretty vulnerable when in the open as well.

So my proposal is that we move AI back into the middle of the station, move gravgen somewhere in AIs current place or near SMES or wherever. But come on, I just love turrets not sucking balls. The only situation in which old turrets did not suck is stun -> laser to death, which means either that AI is rogue or that the attacker is nonhuman.

Making one aspect of the defence, the turret, make or break the entire AI security situation is a bit much. More layers would be preferable than one fuck off layer of screw you for not having a perfect team of AI crackers.

Use Goonstation's AI Core.

Really though, my Satellite Core is piss easy to breach. Its the turrets and player incompetency that makes it difficult.

Steelpoint wrote:Satellite Core is piss easy to breach. Its the turrets and player incompetency that makes it difficult.

Blessed can use like two r0 (I believe might be r0 r1 or r2) gibtonite to destory the core. you walk up to the side place one and it blows up both outer rwalls and two turrets which then leaves that side of the room unguarded and you just walk up and place the second one and bam you're dead in less than 3 minutes.

Can't you only carry one gibtonite at a time though?

Yep. You'd need two people to carry the chunks over to the satellite, and you can't throw anything to change directions is space since gibtonite takes up both slots. If you don't take out the two turrets you're going to need even more to avoid getting chainstunned.

Oh I have done the gibtonite run a few times before. Not gotten other miners to do it with me though especially in a situation like this where comms likely go down. Trick to space slipping with gibtonite is to drop it and then pick it back up on the throwback/whatever, knew my clown planet coords snatching skills would save the station one day.

Jalleo wrote: It is going to be fixed but making the AI core easy as fuck to attack again wont make the gameplay more fun. Only end faster.

Crew overcoming the AI, or at least attempting to, is infinitely more fun than "WELP AI IS IN AN IMPREGNABLE SPACE FORTRESS, IM JUST GOING TO CALL THE SHUTTLE AND HIDE IN MAINT SINCE THAT GIVES ME A BUNCH BETTER SHOT OF SURVIVAL THAN TRYING KILL A GOD".

Oldman Robustin wrote:

Jalleo wrote: It is going to be fixed but making the AI core easy as fuck to attack again wont make the gameplay more fun. Only end faster.

Crew overcoming the AI, or at least attempting to, is infinitely more fun than "WELP AI IS IN AN IMPREGNABLE SPACE FORTRESS, IM JUST GOING TO CALL THE SHUTTLE AND HIDE IN MAINT SINCE THAT GIVES ME A BUNCH BETTER SHOT OF SURVIVAL THAN TRYING KILL A GOD".

Stop being a baby Robustin and deal with it, I have no problem taking down any AI by myself on different servers using practically the same code so stop complaining and git gud.
an example would be hippiestation

Also don't go from top, it only screws everyone up.

How to rain on any MALF/subverted ai's parade:

Learn telescience
Make bomb
Teleport bomb to core
*beep* *beep*
PROFIT

MMMiracles wrote:How to rain on any MALF/subverted ai's parade:

Learn telescience
Make bomb
Teleport bomb to core
*beep* *beep*
PROFIT

Only takes 4-8 minutes to get the equipment ready and usable.

MMMiracles wrote:How to rain on any MALF/subverted ai's parade:

Learn telescience
Make bomb
Teleport bomb to core
*beep* *beep*
PROFIT

If a malf AI didn't assblast toxins and shut down telesci they deserved it. That doesn't make the act robust (I did it twice in one day and still felt good about it mind you) it just makes the AI sloppy. Like not turning off the RD console or shutting off comms. I've had malf AI's animate the damn telesci control console in front of me just because they knew I could and would bomb them with it.

Nexendia wrote:

MMMiracles wrote:How to rain on any MALF/subverted ai's parade:

Learn telescience
Make bomb
Teleport bomb to core
*beep* *beep*
PROFIT

Only takes 4-8 minutes to get the equipment ready and usable.

cedarbridge wrote:

MMMiracles wrote:How to rain on any MALF/subverted ai's parade:

Learn telescience
Make bomb
Teleport bomb to core
*beep* *beep*
PROFIT

If a malf AI didn't assblast toxins and shut down telesci they deserved it. That doesn't make the act robust (I did it twice in one day and still felt good about it mind you) it just makes the AI sloppy. Like not turning off the RD console or shutting off comms. I've had malf AI's animate the damn telesci control console in front of me just because they knew I could and would bomb them with it.

Odds are by time an ai does go MALF, there's a fairly good chance toxins has already gotten a bomb mix ready, and telescience (if there is any) has already nicked an extra crystal and upgraded the pad's capacitor. Maybe its just me, but I always carry a toolbox when doing science shit, so those camersa would be cut pretty quick, so that animation trick wouldn't work well for me. Guess its more situational then anything else.

You only need two departments to win ai malf. Science and cargo. Order ablative armor via cargo. Put it on a guy. Research literally a few levels of research to get better capacitors for telesci, send the ablative armor in behind the glass slidy doors and bam you win. Or boohoo an engiborg walled in ai. Hulk in ablative. Ai is really, really, really underpowered and its only saving grace is that the crew tends to be amazingly incompetent.