Mining stim pens.

[Cheridan]

Bottom post of the previous page:

The bikeshedding in regards to Paprika's changes are getting goddamn ridiculous. You're all bitching at each other over TWO UNITS of lexorin that causes oxyloss that heals automatically.

You're allowed to dislike changes, but HAVE SOME GODDAMN DECENCY ABOUT IT.

After reviewing the first page, I count THREE posts that aren't dripping with hatred and passive-aggression. This isn't how you get people to want to cooperate with you. Yes, this includes paprika himself.

If this is going to continue to be the standard of "feedback" on the forums, moderation is going to get a lot more heavy-handed.

[Alex Crimson]

Its not just 2 units of Lexorin. I mean, on paper it is, but its not. The old stim pills, the intended use for these things was to be a counter to Basilisk freeze beams and to allow miners to do their job a little faster. However players found it easiest to just chug a whole bottle of the pills because a single one didnt provide a long lasting effect, and eating them in bulk was a whole lot easier to manage than eating them one at a time as needed, especially with the change that prevents you from eating stuff whilst wearing a hardsuit helmet. Players are not going to use these pens one at a time. You either inject yourself with 10 of the things or you just dont bother.

I tried it on a test server just now. Without stim pens though. I injected myself with 20 units of Lexorin and then swallowed a Dexalin pill. The pill was more than enough to counter the oxy loss, but i had 2-4 points of brute damage. Nothing a warm donk pocket cant heal. I tried again with 40 units of Lexorin, the Dexalin pill barely kept up, but in the end it prevented me from dying. Ended up with 9-ish brute damage that time.

So you could pop 20 of these stim pens and be just fine if you use a Dexalin pill and a warm donk pocket to counter the effects. But that isnt the point, the point is that its just more steps and players will just not bother. 20 stim pens is what... 160 units of Hyperzine? A chem dispenser can make 150 units of Hyperzine at a small cost of 15 units of power from the machine. All you need to do is ask the Chemist.

and the pens do not even have coffee in them anymore like the pills did. They seem like just really bad speed enhancers.

[cedarbridge]

That's essentially the complaint since the start. Why does a reward item have a downside when its original form never did? Why do we need a functional punishment attached to the reward? Even if it is mitigated, it feels really silly to need to counteract half of an item I had to farm for in the first place.

[Saegrimr]

Why does a reward item have a downside when its original form never did?

Something something powergaming

If this is going to continue to be the standard of "feedback" on the forums, moderation is going to get a lot more heavy-handed.

How about some quality control for pull requests first? Like not removing things in the same pull request as "adding things" as a completely unrelated example.

[Steelpoint]

Or deleting feedback threads.

If miners make the effort to mine enough minerals to acquire a stim pen, they should not suffer a punishment for using it.

If we are concerned about "powergaming" just boost the cost higher to make the pens more valuable.

[Malkevin]

Seems what most people are saying is that its too easy for chemistry to mass produce chemicals, thats its a trivial procedure of press button: get drugs.

Do you really want to go down that route?

[Cheridan]

If this is going to continue to be the standard of "feedback" on the forums, moderation is going to get a lot more heavy-handed.

How about some quality control for pull requests first? Like not removing things in the same pull request as "adding things" as a completely unrelated example.

"It's ok to fling crap at someone, as long as they make a change I don't like!!"

This is not a 'quality control' issue. Paprika made an update to make life easier on miners, because the previous pills and chili items couldn't be used through masks. It's a completely reasonable change.
It's also completely reasonable if people disagree with it. But it's possible to disagree without being cunts about it.

The old stim pills, the intended use for these things was to be a counter to Basilisk freeze beams and to allow miners to do their job a little faster.

That's simply not true. The chili is the item that was made to counter freeze beams. The stim pills were specifically designed as a panic-button to allow miners to quickly flee from enemies.

[ExplosiveCrate]

I don't see how making an item less useful and actively harmful to miners made their lives easier. If anything, it just makes me less likely to play a non-silicon miner, knowing that I'm going to take damage for a very brief speed boost. I'd rather move around faster for a longer period of time than walk around slowly until I see a monster, then inject myself with a stim pen for ~30 seconds of stun resistance and speed.

[Alex Crimson]

[quote="Cheridan"

The old stim pills, the intended use for these things was to be a counter to Basilisk freeze beams and to allow miners to do their job a little faster.

That's simply not true. The chili is the item that was made to counter freeze beams. The stim pills were specifically designed as a panic-button to allow miners to quickly flee from enemies.[/quote]

The pills had Hyperzine to counteract the slowness and coffee to counter the freezing effect. They were meant to be used to fight Basilisks easier. People just found that downing a bottle or two was more efficient than eating them one at a time. Chilli is a novelty item more than a practical one.

[Cipher3]

The big key that Paprika missed and will continue to miss from this thread:
The entire thread save Cheridan, all of the posters, are against Paprika's change, and

This isn't how you get people to want to cooperate with you.

even Cheridan conceded that Paprika had an attitude problem.

[cedarbridge]

Seems what most people are saying is that its too easy for chemistry to mass produce chemicals, thats its a trivial procedure of press button: get drugs.

Do you really want to go down that route?

We might go that anyway if the concept that getting chems and good things needs to be reigned in before people have too much fun.

[paprika]

I simply don't understand why invalidating chem is a good thing. Miners can get mining equipment that's good from the locker, but still not better than the equipment you can get from RND, making it at least useful to ask RND for a drill. If not, oh well, save your money for a resonator or buy a drill for easy mode. You can still drill if they're lazy and don't want to waste your time standing around.

Same with the medipens in mining -- You can either buy some cheap, mass produced chems with defects if you abuse them, or get pure forms of the chems from chemistry. I don't see why allowing miners to get these chems without defects for free is a good thing.

The leporazine is the only thing you can get without any real defect in it, because 10u of lepo is only really enough to counter one basilisk freeze beam encounter.

The stim pens give you 15 points of oxy damage to either help you move around the asteroid faster (if you use them properly and wait until your oxy damage has recovered from the last one) or sprint away from enemies. If you're at -85 health and use a stim pen, you're going to die, so strategy is required to use them to avoid enemies. I've used them in mining plenty fine since I've changed the way they worked, and it might just be my coder knowledge allowing me to use them as intended, but the mental image of people shoving 50 in themselves like they're stim pills and then going directly into crit is fucking hilarious. This is what ss13 is about, adapt and survive. I'm sorry they're not so easy mode anymore, you can actually cooperate with chemistry if you want that. Maybe give chemistry some plasma and uranium, they'd be much more likely to help you out with defect-free mining chems.

Stim pills were never intended as a 'reward' for mining. The fact that you think that way means that they were overpowered. They were a utility you traded points for to make mining easier, not a fancy toy. In fact, almost all of the things in the equipment locker are like this, with the exception of the cigar, the alien, and the soap I think. Most of the 'rewards' are just there to help you mine faster. If the asteroid belt still existed on the east asteroid the jetpack would be crazy good for mining, not sure why it was removed in the first place...

[cedarbridge]

for free

uwot

[paprika]

Oh sorry. I meant without any ~DEPARTMENTAL INTERACTION~

[Incomptinence]

Asteroid belt like many things in mining was removed/fucked with out of spite.

It was an easy high yield region which was worth exploiting for rapid acquisition of rarer minerals. This was due to the exposed nature of the minerals and the fact that flailing through space without a jetpack is preferable to walking at spacesuit speed. It had the side aspect of ejecting inexperienced miners who did not know to chuck everything but their ore and their life support away to avoid getting deep spaced.

Also fuck chemists.

[paprika]

How about I remove the lexorin entirely and just up the price to like 200 or something, a typical quick yield is like 1k points, and 10u of hyperzine isn't really as bad as the 30u pills + coffee used to be.

What's an acceptable price for 10u of hyperzine you can inject through your hardsuit? I'm not to familiar with reagent processing, but it's somewhere around 4-5 minutes maybe? maybe less.

Also the only reason I added the defect was to keep the stimpacks cheap and require skill to use, but apparently that's 2hard4/tg/

[ExplosiveCrate]

How about I remove the lexorin entirely and just up the price to like 200 or something, a typical quick yield is like 1k points, and 10u of hyperzine isn't really as bad as the 30u pills + coffee used to be.

That... would actually be a fair compromise. I'm fine with that.

[MrStonedOne]

why not 1?

or 1.5?

(units that is)

[paprika]

Lemme test and see how much breathloss that shit gives you.

Someone told me 2u DIDN'T give you anything but 15 breathloss, but if I'm wrong that's legitimately my mistake and I'll lower the lexo amount. The damage is supposed to be ENTIRELY temporary.

Edit: Yeah I just tested it another half dozen times. 15 points of stam damage that goes away in less than 30 seconds. Holy crap, I'm done here. Fuck Saegrimr for telling me it does brute damage and complaining about literally nothing. I got epic trolled once again. This is working as intended and I'm not revisiting it.

[Malkevin]

IIRC the brute from lexorin is a random chance, as is the tox damage from synaptazine

[paprika]

Miners can heal that shit with bruise packs regardless. 15u won't give you any brute that's substantial.

[iyaerP]

Honestly, nobody fears basalisks, or has trouble fighting them. The mob everyone really uses stim pills for is goliaths. They let you control the pace of engagement in a way that you can't without them, and more importantly,when you inevitably fuckup and get slipped, or there are 2 goliaths digging togeather so you have no escape square or whatever, they allow you to make an escape out of the HORRIBLE RAPE RANGE of the goliath and patch yourself up before going back in. That ability to reliably escape, even when direly injured, is what makes stim pills so vital for goliath hunting. If basalisks were more aggressive, and aggroed from further out, the old style pills would be more required, but currently, you don't really take much freeze damage, as you can basically close to melee before it starts attacking you. But I digress.

After careful consideration and more mining playing with the new stims, the biggest reason that I find them to be a major nerf is that they can't really be used reliably. There is no way to carry enough of them onto the asteroid to do the "inject when they're wearing off" thing that Paprika seems to consider the "intended" play mechanism, and due to the massive amounts of oxygen damage that they do when injected en masse, enough can't be injected to do an entire work-trip. With the pills, you could chug enough to not worry about running out. You can't do that with the damaging reagents in the pens. Furthermore, you can't carry enough of them with you to do it either, and that is the big problem. The pills came in pill bottles, so I could carry a decent number out onto the asteroid with me. The stimpens don't have any sort of container that they come in. Mining already has the worst inventory juggling of any job in the game, and I usually don't have more than 2 or open inventory slots. Maybe an extra 3 in my medkit if I have taken a ton of damage. That is enough for at most 40 units of hyperzine. That isn't even as much as a single pill that chemistry can make in literally 3 seconds.

[paprika]

You can get a cardboard box and fill up the entire thing with stimpens. They fit in boxes. Use your empty internals box? Your poor inventory management is not my problem. Also, once again, the damage is temporary, and the damage wears off long before the hyperzine runs out. Mastering how long the stim pens damage you to properly chain them is the point behind the negative chem being in it. Lexorin works pretty well in this case, though I'd prefer if it didn't randomly give you a few points of brute damage whenever the RNG gods hate you. Downing a bunch of pills and then being sanic for 30 minutes is bad.

[Alex Crimson]

Once again you are looking at the value of a single pen. Nobody is going to use them one at a time for a 1 minute speed boost. Fighting Goliaths isnt about speed, its about timing, you do not need Hyperzine to fight them

[paprika]

Goliath stun being bullshit is more of a problem with goliaths.

[callanrockslol]

Enough with the "balance" changes there is literally no reason to make mining a more horrible experience than it was before, or I shall embark on an autistic crusade to "balance" the entire fucking game and try and kill the codebase through boredom.

[Saegrimr]

How about I remove the lexorin entirely and just up the price to like 200 or something, a typical quick yield is like 1k points, and 10u of hyperzine isn't really as bad as the 30u pills + coffee used to be.

Shit if we're gonna go down that route, old pill bottles were 5 pills of 10u Hyperzine, 30u Coffee, 10u of Ethylwhateversomething.

Fuck Saegrimr for telling me it does brute damage and complaining about literally nothing.

Looks like we're both the victim of not testing it thoroughly.
Live on the server 2u of lexorin does either 0, 2, or 4 brute randomly and 15 oxyloss. 1u does between 0-3 brute. Synaptizine didn't seem to waver in the damage.

[Oldman Robustin]

I don't think I've seen such a constant stream of shit changes since I've joined /tg/station.

[Stickymayhem]

To be clear, the change is shit, but I said very specifically that changes we don't like happen.

The issue is that your attitude is consistently unbearable for literally anyone to deal with.

[Incomptinence]

Nothing will ever top the unholy trifecta of Errodarkness, Errocrit and ErroBLOODYSCREENSOREAL in my mind. Oh man removing tiny minimum dark vision is so immersive, however making blind/crit people able to see in a tiny circle to invoke detection through other senses is immersive. Oh and blind people need light to be aware of their surroundings with their non vision senses, just process how immersive that is.

We've seen worse at least pens being overpriced but non poisonous is on the table as an option now. Despite swimming through their natural vitriolic habitat like a sewer rat Paprka is actually listening to some of the feedback.

[paprika]

I consider myself more of a sewer alligator. A made up boogieman people hype up in their minds as awful because they're too scared to face the truth, they're just terrible at the game. I still have yet to have an issue using stimpacks, I'll give it a few more weeks of observing and telling you all to git gud before I consider making changes to them. This trend of awful, awful feedback and personal attacks has not made me a happy camper to say the least. What I find the most funny about this is that BlessedHeretic, the guy to start the shitstorm of "U SUK PAP" shitflinging in OOC, is the only one to figure out how to use stimpacks so far. I guess anger really is the best driving factor here.

Give changes a chance before you shit all over them, for fuck's sake. I don't necessarily want to make this about assistants, but holy fuck have I seen the population of assistant shitters absolutely plummet since ass maint was taken away. People were just as shitflingy about that, too.

[iyaerP]

Assistant maint was taken away following a poll on the subject. You nerfed mining because you got rekt by miner and decided that stim pills were too robust.

[paprika]

You nerfed mining because you got rekt by miner and decided that stim pills were too robust.

Is this what you do when you lose an argument? Resort to assumptions and fallacies?

Pathetic. Miner is one of my top played departments, next to security and atmos. In fact, I play all departments pretty equally. Stim pills were clunky and abused, I made them less clunky and require more finesse and timing so you can't shotgun 50 of them and have hyperzine in your system for 30 minutes. Get good.

The only two reasons I can think of for removing/reducing the lexorin in stimpacks is:

1) they cause some brute, which is an unintended side effect, which could likely be reduced by changing it to 1u of lexorin instead of 2.
2) they can be weaponized -- enough of them in a person can send them into crit if you're fast enough and they're dumb enough. Someone being stabbed by 4 medipens and not running away when drugged up on hyperzine at sanic speeds is baffling, but it's going to happen.

I'm not sure about that second one, it's almost like an interesting way for miner traitors to take out targets, so..

[cedarbridge]

You nerfed mining because you got rekt by miner and decided that stim pills were too robust.

Is this what you do when you lose an argument? Resort to assumptions and fallacies?

Still better than going straight for the ad hom. Right?

[paprika]

No? It makes you all look like huge hypocrites? And basically reinforces my point that I should probably never visit the feedback forum again after this?

You can cry "but you started it!" all you want, but all I did was make a change. Blessed came at me with insults and shit flinging along with you, Cedar, in ooc, and this is what you get.

[Alex Crimson]

Could you not just... remove the random brute damage from Lexorin? It has no purpose, right?

[ExplosiveCrate]

Lexorin is supposed to be a deadly drug. Hell, it had to be buffed to do even more damage because it was weaker than plasma, one of its components.

[Alex Crimson]

It would still be just as deadly without the minor brute damage.

[cedarbridge]

No? It makes you all look like huge hypocrites? And basically reinforces my point that I should probably never visit the feedback forum again after this?

You can cry "but you started it!" all you want, but all I did was make a change. Blessed came at me with insults and shit flinging along with you, Cedar, in ooc, and this is what you get.

Actually, we've complained that we didn't like the change, as this thread as done also. You responded (as always) by getting asspained and insulting everyone involved. You need to stop. Seriously. If you can't understand why there is this much dust kicked up about one of your changes, you should probably consider not changing things for a while.

[ExplosiveCrate]

It would still be just as deadly without the minor brute damage.

Except it would be easily countercounteracted by a dexalin pill if anyone tried to use it as poison.

[Alex Crimson]

It does a stupidly small amount of brute damage. Injecting myself with 40 units of Lexorin did about 9-10 brute. Removing the random brute damage wouldnt nerf the poison at all. Dexalin will stop Lexorin from killing you regardless.

[paprika]

I could probably simulate the temporary damage thing better by doing 1u of toxin and 1u of anti-tox, but I'm not sure how long that would even last and 1u of toxin only gives you like 5 damage

[Raven776]

I'll be honest here.

I never used stim packs, I've never used most things that Paprika has removed.

The stim packs seem like a nice little change. If you want 200 units of hyperzine just hope that the chemists are especially competent or helpful that day, bring them a bluespace beaker when you get your drill or something and barter for the pills, or just go ahead and mine slowly with your already low pace-medium risk job.

Honestly, it's chem's job to make these things for you and anyone that asks anyways... And they usually have the power for it. Just do them some favors back and they can go ahead and tell the CMO to fuck off because they're actually doing their job for once.

The brute damage could always just be mitigated by removing one point of lexorin and replacing it with bicardine... Make it a cheap, weak heal on top of being a stimulant that'll force slow use but enforce it as a decent item to carry around.

[Saegrimr]

just hope that the chemists are especially competent or helpful that day, bring them a bluespace beaker when you get your drill or something and barter for the pills

Thats like second batch of minerals. I (used to) have enough for a mining bot and bottle of pills after the first run of "Get important materials to R&D so they can progress research faster".

Now that the fucking resonator is gone from the voucher list (THANKS) its even slower getting the first batch out. Taking even longer for the second batch unless I want to just wait and get a larger load back. All of this now without pills.
Then I have to HOPE chemistry is even there in the first place, or haven't fucked off in the first 10 minutes of the round, and after that hope they aren't chucklefucks and do their job, and wait on their asses.

After the second batch there is zero need for me to even go back to the asteroid unless I just want to farm up points to buy all of cargo jetpacks or something, the hyperzine has lost its usefulness because Science and Robotics now have the material they need to do their fun shit. What do I get? Oh right. Lexorin.

"Just go and get them before you leave then"
And hold up the rest of science? As i've said before, hurting mining has this trickling effect on the rest of the departments.

medium risk job.

MEDIUM RISK. Have you even done mining on NOT the right side of the roid?

[cedarbridge]

medium risk job.

MEDIUM RISK. Have you even done mining on NOT the right side of the roid?

Its called mining where there aren't precut tunnels.

[TheWiznard]

You can still mine pretty much the whole western asteroid without ever breaching a tunnel and still come out with 90% more minerals than you'd collect in total from the right roid. That said, I guess in the end it doesn't even matter. One thing, I don't know why it doesn't even matter what you try to change. Keep that in mind, people are gonna mind to remind themselves how they hate change so much. To be honest, when I'm mining I still mine almost exactly as it was before mining had points and shit. I just fill up my extended tank grab my trusty pick and head out to the north outpost. The only new thing I grab is the advanced scanner because with half a brain you can easily remember where ores are for the 6 seconds they aren't on your screen. I then mine in a 3 wide tunnel expanding the sides to get ores that are on the edge at places. On a good generation of the asteroid I can easily get 4k points in 10-20 minutes of doing this, and the only thing making it twenty minutes is the walk from the north outpost to the fucking ore machine and trying to get your box inside the airlock without pressure pushing it out sometimes. stimpens are good for the last step of my job, the quick haul to the ore machine, if you want to re live the good days take your first load to RnD n (ask if you can set up a portable chem at mining or something I don't know if this is able to make hyperzine or not) or stop by chem on your way out.

[oranges]

Yeah, if you just mine without breaching the tunnels it's literally a zero risk operation. It's actually quite peaceful and laid back

[Raven776]

And mobs are never more dangerous than fellow players.

[paprika]

H-HELLO FRIENDLY COMMUNITY MEMBERS I NEED YOUR FEEDBACK ON MY NEW CHANGES HERE AFTER ALL I AM NOTHING WITHOUT YOU

https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/5520

CAN NON-MINING PLAYERS ALSO STOP BITCHING ABOUT MINING IT'S HILARIOUS AND ALL BUT COME ON

[Saegrimr]

(5 assorted medipens for the price of 4)

>Remove 1 lexo from hyperzine pen
>Give it to leporazine pen out of nowhere

I really don't understand your choking fetish, but okay. If you think making the other things negligibly cheaper somehow makes up for lexorin in the hyperzine then whatever.

[paprika]

If you got a better idea than lexo as a negative side effect let me know because synap tox damage is even worse because it can't be healed ;(((