Dermal Armour Patch: Good night sweet prince

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Dermal Armour Patch: Good night sweet prince

Postby Steelpoint » Sun Oct 26, 2014 6:49 am #38751

As is standard with most changes made by paprika, a seemingly innocent addition saw the removal of several HoS cosmetic clothing for varying reasons (powergaming, consistency, fuck you) including my personal favourite cosmetic item, the Dermal Patch.

Link to PR if interested. (https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/5448)

As I said in the PR, I feel like unique cosmetic options are being removed for no good reason and just for the sake of it.

I'm really disappointed and disheartened, I hope to challenge this later on.

I just wanted to vent is all, and I'm on my phone which limits my vocabulary, thanks for reading.
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Re: Dermal Armour Patch: Good night sweet prince

Postby Ikarrus » Sun Oct 26, 2014 6:51 am #38752

I'm of the opinion that armor should be easily recognizable and readable at a glance, especially one as powerul as HoS armor, so I think that removing the patch was a good decision.
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Re: Dermal Armour Patch: Good night sweet prince

Postby Cipher3 » Sun Oct 26, 2014 6:52 am #38753

While I don't particularly mind, part of this is literally 'I don't like what I personally think the black jumpsuit is an allusion to, so THAT GOES INTO THE TRASH'
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Re: Dermal Armour Patch: Good night sweet prince

Postby Saegrimr » Sun Oct 26, 2014 6:53 am #38754

Classic Paprika pull request.

[IMAGE OF NEW THING]
-Adds a new thing!
-Removes this other thing I don't like.
[IMAGE OF NEW THING]
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Re: Dermal Armour Patch: Good night sweet prince

Postby ExplosiveCrate » Sun Oct 26, 2014 6:54 am #38755

"It's black so it must be for edgy shitlords"

If the jumpsuit had a different name and description you'd never even know it was an allusion to Deus Ex.
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Re: Dermal Armour Patch: Good night sweet prince

Postby miggles » Sun Oct 26, 2014 6:56 am #38756

that was my argument
my other one was that if the hos isnt wearing a hat you know hes wearing the dermal patch
that isnt really unintuitive. a player on their first round can examine the head of security and see "They are wearing a Dermal Armour Patch on their head" and understand that "oh, his hair looks normal but he has armor on ok"
after a while of playing the game they will understand this concept fully. its called learning. its not like this one detail is going to confuse a new player and frustrate them.
and i mean otherwise, theres not really an argument. people like the item and it isnt overpowered or anything, theres no good reason to remove it.
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Re: Dermal Armour Patch: Good night sweet prince

Postby Saegrimr » Sun Oct 26, 2014 6:57 am #38757

The dermal patch isn't even a straight upgrade. Regular sec officers are protected from flashbangs yet Warden and HoS isn't.

paprka commented 3 hours ago on github wrote:The fact that the dermal armor patch is literally invisible powergame bait and completely unbalanced?




There's that "powergame" again, first mining now this?
No department is safe.

Mark my words, next is going to be something in the science department.
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Re: Dermal Armour Patch: Good night sweet prince

Postby Cheridan » Sun Oct 26, 2014 7:00 am #38760

miggles wrote:that was my argument
my other one was that if the hos isnt wearing a hat you know hes wearing the dermal patch
that isnt really unintuitive. a player on their first round can examine the head of security and see "They are wearing a Dermal Armour Patch on their head" and understand that "oh, his hair looks normal but he has armor on ok"
after a while of playing the game they will understand this concept fully. its called learning. its not like this one detail is going to confuse a new player and frustrate them.
and i mean otherwise, theres not really an argument. people like the item and it isnt overpowered or anything, theres no good reason to remove it.


Not everyone is an experienced player 360notoolbox SS13 veteran.

Let me tell you a little story. I returned from a period of being burnt out to the game, a long while ago. So I'm traitor, or something, and I see this guy running around in a black jumpsuit with this shitty dumpy black coat. He looked like a space hobo, and since he was wearing all black I figured he was a chaplain or something. So I jump him in escape, and he goes down. And I start to hit him in the head. And keep hitting, and hitting, and hitting... Then he pops right up and tases the shit out of me, because oops as it turns out that dumpy hobo was the HoS who happened to be wearing the most powerful and most invisible headgear in the game, which had been added during my hiatus.

its not like this one detail is going to confuse a new player and frustrate them.


Oops, you're wrong.

and it isnt overpowered


Strongest hat in the game, 80 melee protection.
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Re: Dermal Armour Patch: Good night sweet prince

Postby oranges » Sun Oct 26, 2014 7:04 am #38761

Yarr the pirate eyepatch

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Re: Dermal Armour Patch: Good night sweet prince

Postby cedarbridge » Sun Oct 26, 2014 7:04 am #38762

Saegrimr wrote:The dermal patch isn't even a straight upgrade. Regular sec officers are protected from flashbangs yet Warden and HoS isn't.

paprka commented 3 hours ago on github wrote:The fact that the dermal armor patch is literally invisible powergame bait and completely unbalanced?




There's that "powergame" again, first mining now this?
No department is safe.

Mark my words, next is going to be something in the science department.


Nah, they'll hit sec again and replace batons with literal nerf bats or something.

I've said it before. I'm getting really tired of hearing "powergame" as an excuse to remove things people (Paprka) don't like. That said, I'm also not a fan of the way that PR was handled by the coders-in-charge. The PR was laden with complaints against its addition but it was pushed through anyway. The usual response being "make a thread (to be ignored) on the Freeback forum and leave us alone."

The dermal patch was and is fine. Steelpoint was onto it in the PR. Literally nobody outside of the 'bus complained about it and the HoS is still visible as the HoS while wearing it. Its visible via examine and via assumption because they aren't wearing their hat. This is just another case of.
Saegrimr wrote:[IMAGE OF NEW THING]
-Adds a new thing!
-Removes this other thing I don't like.
[IMAGE OF NEW THING]

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Re: Dermal Armour Patch: Good night sweet prince

Postby paprika » Sun Oct 26, 2014 7:05 am #38763

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Re: Dermal Armour Patch: Good night sweet prince

Postby cedarbridge » Sun Oct 26, 2014 7:06 am #38765

Cheridan wrote:Strongest hat in the game, 80 melee protection.

Zero flash protection

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Re: Dermal Armour Patch: Good night sweet prince

Postby Cheridan » Sun Oct 26, 2014 7:09 am #38766

cedarbridge wrote:
Cheridan wrote:Strongest hat in the game, 80 melee protection.

Zero flash protection

Right because that matters since the HoS doesn't have sunglasses
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Re: Dermal Armour Patch: Good night sweet prince

Postby Saegrimr » Sun Oct 26, 2014 7:11 am #38768

Cheridan wrote:So I'm traitor, or something, and I see this guy running around in a black jumpsuit with this shitty dumpy black coat. He looked like a space hobo, and since he was wearing all black I figured he was a chaplain or something. So I jump him in escape,


>Jumping a dude in a public area without even examining him to see if he's your target or fucking loaded.
Should I regale you the tale of a cult construct being summoned by a sec officer, and as soon as the construct spawns in he immediately kills his master because "I didn't look to see who it was I just saw a sec officer and panicked."
If this was runnin gunnin shootin game I could understand the need for split-second recognizable sprites because notime2roleplay gottashoot .

cedarbridge wrote:Zero flash protection



Flashbang, the bang part specifically. The flash is for the eyewear.
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Re: Dermal Armour Patch: Good night sweet prince

Postby paprika » Sun Oct 26, 2014 7:12 am #38770

Can someone explain to me how the dermal patch works again

And how it's able to be stripped from the HoS like a hat

And why it still existed when we actually made head augs that keep your hair intact while providing armoring

You'll are silly
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Re: Dermal Armour Patch: Good night sweet prince

Postby Apsis » Sun Oct 26, 2014 7:12 am #38771

You guys can always learn the code (cosmetic stuff is easy) to edit and put things back in so they're acceptable. Literally all Paprika is and has been doing.

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Re: Dermal Armour Patch: Good night sweet prince

Postby MrStonedOne » Sun Oct 26, 2014 7:14 am #38772

I literally removed a forum admin from their forum admin and moderator position for perma-deleting this thread and restored it by hand from a copy i had open in another tab.

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Re: Dermal Armour Patch: Good night sweet prince

Postby oranges » Sun Oct 26, 2014 7:14 am #38773

This would've been easier if cheridan had just admitted to not liking the jensen cosplay

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Re: Dermal Armour Patch: Good night sweet prince

Postby miggles » Sun Oct 26, 2014 7:16 am #38774

copey poster
Cheridan wrote:snope

youre telling me you didnt even examine someone before attacking them?
no, that is on you, 100%. you werent even a new player, just someone who hasnt played in a while. you should have known better than to randomly attack someone without even seeing who they are.
Oops, you're wrong.

you werent a new player. like i said, you should know better.
Strongest hat in the game, 80 melee protection.

the SWAT helmet has 80. the HoS' other hat has 80. the riot helmet has 82.
also, its not overpowered. its just strong. if you think its overpowered, shouldnt you nerf it?

in any case, these kinds of mistakes are what teach people important things that they need to watch out for. obviously not everyone is going to understand immediately what every item does and its interaction with other things. ss13 is a game where you learn either by trial and error, or looking everything up.
im sure that after that mistake you knew not to make it again the next time, yes?
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Re: Dermal Armour Patch: Good night sweet prince

Postby cedarbridge » Sun Oct 26, 2014 7:31 am #38775

paprika wrote:Can someone explain to me how the dermal patch works again

And how it's able to be stripped from the HoS like a hat

And why it still existed when we actually made head augs that keep your hair intact while providing armoring

You'll are silly

It works the same way the Rapid Part Exchanger does.

Also, implying that head augs are in any way comparable to the HoS hat. Come on Paprka, put your back into it.
Last edited by cedarbridge on Sun Oct 26, 2014 7:34 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Dermal Armour Patch: Good night sweet prince

Postby paprika » Sun Oct 26, 2014 7:33 am #38776

miggles wrote:also, its not overpowered. its just strong. if you think its overpowered, shouldnt you nerf it?

I'm going to help Cheridan out here by saying you can't read.

The literal invisibility made it overpowered, not the strength itself. That's what cheridan is saying. Pay attention and stop embarrassing yourself.
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Re: Dermal Armour Patch: Good night sweet prince

Postby miggles » Sun Oct 26, 2014 7:39 am #38778

except
Cheridan wrote:
and it isnt overpowered


Strongest hat in the game, 80 melee protection.


his response to me saying its not overpowered was literally its melee protection value.
maybe you should pay attention?
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Re: Dermal Armour Patch: Good night sweet prince

Postby iyaerP » Sun Oct 26, 2014 7:45 am #38780

Isn't this shit supposed to be subject to mass approval before features are just wantonly removed for no reason other than one coder doesn't like them? This shit is what's fucking up mining as well, and it is the same asshole coder.

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Re: Dermal Armour Patch: Good night sweet prince

Postby paprika » Sun Oct 26, 2014 7:47 am #38781

You wouldn't be saying that if you were on the other end of a miner with 50 stim pills in him pickaxing your shit in

This is literally why blessed is infamous on sybil
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Re: Dermal Armour Patch: Good night sweet prince

Postby Saegrimr » Sun Oct 26, 2014 7:56 am #38784

But you got rid of the stim pills already, so why remove the dermal? Are we getting stim pills back or something?

And no, blessed used the kinetic acc- I MEAN UH.. HE USED THE MINING DRILL. YEAH THE DRILL SO REMOVE THAT INSTEAD.
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PostThis post was deleted by Ikarrus on Sun Oct 26, 2014 4:09 pm.
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PostThis post was deleted by Ikarrus on Sun Oct 26, 2014 4:10 pm.

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Re: Dermal Armour Patch: Good night sweet prince

Postby Cheridan » Sun Oct 26, 2014 8:03 am #38789

iyaerP wrote:Isn't this shit supposed to be subject to mass approval


No.
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Re: Dermal Armour Patch: Good night sweet prince

Postby cedarbridge » Sun Oct 26, 2014 8:05 am #38791

Cheridan wrote:
iyaerP wrote:Isn't this shit supposed to be subject to mass approval


No.

The future of the server is not for the players to decide. The dictatorship of the coderbus marches forward.

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Re: Dermal Armour Patch: Good night sweet prince

Postby paprika » Sun Oct 26, 2014 8:19 am #38796

"Erro was right all along" in 3....2....1....
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Re: Dermal Armour Patch: Good night sweet prince

Postby MrStonedOne » Sun Oct 26, 2014 8:21 am #38797

Alright, lets try to avoid the coderbus slap fight.

If you have concerns about how they are doing things, air them, in their own thread, in actual words.

Trying to see who can make the most edgy meme version of coderbus is literally x in a unrelated thread is just garbage.
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Re: Dermal Armour Patch: Good night sweet prince

Postby lumipharon » Sun Oct 26, 2014 8:31 am #38802

The patch has no flash bang protection, which means flashbangs stun you, unlike the hat. This is a genuine huge downside.
Also the hat is ugly as shit. The Warden hat looks much better.

Also did that PR to make beret's have flash protection ever go through?
Last edited by lumipharon on Sun Oct 26, 2014 8:39 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Dermal Armour Patch: Good night sweet prince

Postby cedarbridge » Sun Oct 26, 2014 8:32 am #38804

lumipharon wrote:The Warden hat looks much better.

That's because the warden's hat is a symbol of real authority.

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Re: Dermal Armour Patch: Good night sweet prince

Postby Aranclanos » Sun Oct 26, 2014 8:35 am #38805

I kinda liked the dermal patch, it "looked" (because it was invisible huehuehueuhe) nice. If I see a HoS without a hat I'll know that he's wearing it, and I'm okay with it. But someone wearing it just coz lmao2stronk it's a legit concern. It's a really small change, so it doesn't trouble me that much. Oh well.
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Re: Dermal Armour Patch: Good night sweet prince

Postby lumipharon » Sun Oct 26, 2014 8:41 am #38807

Yeah, I wouldn't care if the patch wasn't robust (but having flash protection would be nice...) I use it as hos because other avaliable headwear looks shitty/doesn't look nice with the coat.

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Re: Dermal Armour Patch: Good night sweet prince

Postby paprika » Sun Oct 26, 2014 8:42 am #38808

lumipharon wrote:The patch has no flash bang protection, which means flashbangs stun you, unlike the hat. This is a genuine huge downside.
Also the hat is ugly as shit. The Warden hat looks much better.

Also did that PR to make beret's have flash protection ever go through?

Naw, I might do that later since the warden and HoS hat have it anyway.
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Re: Dermal Armour Patch: Good night sweet prince

Postby Steelpoint » Sun Oct 26, 2014 9:31 am #38825

What happened? Seems someone really wanted this thread gone.

I'll write my thoughts when I get home.
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Re: Dermal Armour Patch: Good night sweet prince

Postby Steelpoint » Sun Oct 26, 2014 10:02 am #38828

I really can't bring myself to repeat for the 5th time the reasons why the Dermal Patch is balanced, and many people in this thread have done a good job in that regard.

I'm interested in seeing everyone's opinion on this subject, its good to see nor did I expect this thread to blow up in activity.

--------------------

Moving on.

I've had some balance plans in the works in regards to the HoS hat and its protection for some time now. I was/am planning to do a PR on that. The changes I'm proposing, alongside this issue, are:

  • Readdition of the Dermal Patch to the HoS's locker
  • Moving the new "Wardens Hat" from the HoS's Locker to the Warden's locker as a alt Warden hat.
  • Changing the HoS's armour values to offer more overall good protection but not be very good in one field. My WIP numbers are (65 melee, 50 laser, 50 bullet, 20-30 energy, 50 bomb/its slightly less than the current HoS armour) This would make the HoS Armour/Hat overall robust but not the most single powerful armour in one field. Unlike the current situation where its super robust.
  • Either the readdition of the removed HoS black jumpsuit or a new sprited one.
Last edited by Steelpoint on Sun Oct 26, 2014 10:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dermal Armour Patch: Good night sweet prince

Postby miggles » Sun Oct 26, 2014 10:03 am #38829

cheridan hard deleted the thread and was removed from the forum mod list for it
MSO manually replaced it
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Re: Dermal Armour Patch: Good night sweet prince

Postby Steelpoint » Sun Oct 26, 2014 10:05 am #38831

That's childish, more so considering Cheridan has a vested interesting in this issue (He was one to champion for the patches removal and he was the one to merge the PR)

But lets stay on topic.
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Re: Dermal Armour Patch: Good night sweet prince

Postby Kuraudo » Sun Oct 26, 2014 10:53 am #38837

MrStonedOne wrote:I literally removed a forum admin from their forum admin and moderator position for perma-deleting this thread and restored it by hand from a copy i had open in another tab.

You're welcome.


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Re: Dermal Armour Patch: Good night sweet prince

Postby callanrockslol » Sun Oct 26, 2014 11:06 am #38841

paprika wrote:"Erro was right all along" in 3....2....1....


Nobody ever said he wasn't, they just banished him from the realm.
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Spoiler:
Urist Boatmurdered [Security] asks, "Why does Zol have a captain-level ID?"
Zol Interbottom [Security] says, "because"

Sergie Borris lives on in our hearts

Zaros (No id) [145.9] says, "WITH MY SUPER WIZARD POWERS I CAN TELL CALLAN IS MAD."

Anderson Conagher wrote:Callan is sense.

Errorage wrote:When I see the win vista, win 7 and win 8 hourglass cursor, it makes me happy
Cause it's a circle spinning around
I smile and make circular motions with my finger to imiatate it

petethegoat wrote:slap a comment on it and call it a feature

MisterPerson wrote:>playing
Do you think this is a game?

Gun Hog wrote:Untested code baby

oranges wrote:for some reason all our hosts turn into bohemia software communities after they implode

Malkevin wrote:I was the only one that voted for you Callan.

Miggles wrote:>centration development
>trucking
ill believe it when snakes grow arms and strangle me with them



OOC: Aranclanos: that sounds like ooc in ooc related to ic to be ooc and confuse the ic
OOC: Dionysus24779: We're nearing a deep philosophical extistential level

Admin PM from-Jordie0608: 33-Jan-2552| Warned: Is a giraffe dork ~tony abbott

OOC: Saegrimr: That wasn't a call to pray right now callan jesus christ you're fast.

OOC: Eaglendia: Glad I got to see the rise, fall, rise, and fall of Zol

OOC: Armhulenn: CALLAN
OOC: Armhulenn: YOU MELTED MY FUCKING REVOLVER
OOC: Armhulenn: AND THEN
OOC: Armhulenn: GAVE ME MELTING MELONS
OOC: Armhulenn: GOD FUCKING BLESS YOU
OOC: Armhulenn: you know what's hilarious though
OOC: Armhulenn: I melted ANOTHER TRAITOR'S REVOLVER AFTER THAT

7/8/2016 never forget

Armhulen wrote:
John_Oxford wrote:>implying im not always right

all we're saying is that you're not crag son


bandit wrote:we already have a punishment for using our code for your game, it's called using our code for your game

The evil holoparasite user I can't believe its not DIO and his holoparasite I can't believe its not Skub have been defeated by the Spacedust Crusaders, but what has been taken from the station can never be returned.

OOC: TheGel: Literally a guy in a suit with a shuttle full of xenos. That's a doozy

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Steelpoint
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Joined: Thu Apr 17, 2014 6:37 pm
Location: The Armoury
Byond Username: Steelpoint
Github Username: Steelpoint

Re: Dermal Armour Patch: Good night sweet prince

Postby Steelpoint » Sun Oct 26, 2014 12:19 pm #38853

While I do like the Drill hat, I think it suits the Warden better than the HoS.

I'll concede with the black jumpsuit, and look at returning the Dermal Patch, and give the Warden the Drill hat. I've also adjusted the armour values of the HoS Armour/Hat (melee = 65, bullet = 30, laser = 50, energy = 25, bomb = 25, bio = 0, rad = 0)

I'll wait a while to get more opinions before I do anything, I would like to hear from Pap/Cheridan on this possibility.
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Fatal
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Re: Dermal Armour Patch: Good night sweet prince

Postby Fatal » Sun Oct 26, 2014 5:18 pm #38885

I can understand the removal of the jumpsuit, but removing the dermal armour? It's an iconic part of being HoS, that's all there is to it, there doesn't have to be any logic, and the HoS is pretty recognisable

Next someone will make a PR making no weapons fit in bags so you can't hide them either

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Gun Hog
 
Joined: Sat Apr 19, 2014 5:19 am
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Re: Dermal Armour Patch: Good night sweet prince

Postby Gun Hog » Sun Oct 26, 2014 6:15 pm #38896

I disagree with the removal of cosplay options. It is more than just the HoS at this point as well. If you are not familiar with something someone is wearing, you examine him. I am not sure, but there seems to be a trend starting up about removing SS13's references to other games and media. Some of these arguments cite copyright infiringement, while others are based on nothing more than the author's personal taste. I do not know why such a thing is happening now, but I do not like it at all.

Keeping on topic, I do think the Jensen stuff should stay. Make the Jensen shades into SecHUDs so that they can also be given to the HoS - right now the outfit is incomplete. You could nerf it to be a normal SO helmet instead, so it not so 'overpowered'.

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paprika
Rarely plays
 
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Location: in down bad
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Re: Dermal Armour Patch: Good night sweet prince

Postby paprika » Sun Oct 26, 2014 9:00 pm #38920

GEE GUYS DID YOU NOTICE HOW I DIDN'T REMOVE THE WHIMSY RD ALT OUTFIT WHEN A BETTER SPRITE WAS GIVEN TO ME FOR IT


MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMAYBE you guys should all collaborate on a new primarily-black alternative jumpsuit for the HoS, with a sprite that doesn't look like an edgy skintight ninja outfit? Put some red on it so it's still identifiable as a security outfit, without drawn-on muscles which look shitty on females, send me the DMI on my steam, and I will PERSONALLY ADD IT TO THE GAME. Again, blackcurity is fine, but at least put some red on it. Look at the security hardsuit, a perfect example of something that's black-focused but still retaining security aesthetic with the red shoulders and completely red helmet. Seriously, it's fucking piss easy, but I'm not going to waste my time making a better black jumpsuit, I simply removed the jensen shit altogether. It just needs at least SOME semblance of departmental identity. Call it "Head of security tactical jumpsuit". Holy shit, watch literally nobody give a shit when it's added! It's like magic! It's almost like alternative jumpsuits and choice are perfectly fine when they don't look like shit and are creative and not edgy cosplay garbage! WOAH!!!1

As far as the dermal patch goes? It's shit. "I want to show off my stupid haircut but still be protected with a snowflake item!" is terrible mentality and that would NEVER be added to the code today. It's powergame crap and it'd be WAY more robust of you to forego a helmet all together because you don't want to mess up your hair.
Oldman Robustin wrote:It's an established meme that coders don't play this game.

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miggles
 
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 9:02 am
Byond Username: Miggles

Re: Dermal Armour Patch: Good night sweet prince

Postby miggles » Sun Oct 26, 2014 9:32 pm #38932

paprika wrote:opinions
dezzmont wrote:I am one of sawrge's alt accounts

dezzmont wrote:sawrge has it right.

Connor wrote:miggles is correct though

PostThis post was deleted by MisterPerson on Mon Oct 27, 2014 5:28 am.
Reason: Please be respectful of other users. You can disagree with someone without being a hostile douchebag

PostThis post was deleted by MisterPerson on Mon Oct 27, 2014 5:34 am.
Reason: Quoting a now deleted post

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