/tg/Station 13

Posted: **Sun Oct 26, 2014 6:49 am**

As is standard with most changes made by paprika, a seemingly innocent addition saw the removal of several HoS cosmetic clothing for varying reasons (powergaming, consistency, fuck you) including my personal favourite cosmetic item, the Dermal Patch.

Link to PR if interested. (https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/5448)

As I said in the PR, I feel like unique cosmetic options are being removed for no good reason and just for the sake of it.

I'm really disappointed and disheartened, I hope to challenge this later on.

I just wanted to vent is all, and I'm on my phone which limits my vocabulary, thanks for reading.

Posted: **Sun Oct 26, 2014 6:51 am**

I'm of the opinion that armor should be easily recognizable and readable at a glance, especially one as powerul as HoS armor, so I think that removing the patch was a good decision.

Posted: **Sun Oct 26, 2014 6:52 am**

While I don't particularly mind, part of this is literally 'I don't like what I personally think the black jumpsuit is an allusion to, so THAT GOES INTO THE TRASH'

Posted: **Sun Oct 26, 2014 6:53 am**

Classic Paprika pull request.

[IMAGE OF NEW THING]
-Adds a new thing!
-Removes this other thing I don't like.
[IMAGE OF NEW THING]

Posted: **Sun Oct 26, 2014 6:54 am**

"It's black so it must be for edgy shitlords"

If the jumpsuit had a different name and description you'd never even know it was an allusion to Deus Ex.

Posted: **Sun Oct 26, 2014 6:56 am**

that was my argument
my other one was that if the hos isnt wearing a hat you know hes wearing the dermal patch
that isnt really unintuitive. a player on their first round can examine the head of security and see "They are wearing a Dermal Armour Patch on their head" and understand that "oh, his hair looks normal but he has armor on ok"
after a while of playing the game they will understand this concept fully. its called learning. its not like this one detail is going to confuse a new player and frustrate them.
and i mean otherwise, theres not really an argument. people like the item and it isnt overpowered or anything, theres no good reason to remove it.

Posted: **Sun Oct 26, 2014 6:57 am**

The dermal patch isn't even a straight upgrade. Regular sec officers are protected from flashbangs yet Warden and HoS isn't.

paprka commented 3 hours ago on github wrote:The fact that the dermal armor patch is literally invisible powergame bait and completely unbalanced?

There's that "powergame" again, first mining now this?
No department is safe.

Mark my words, next is going to be something in the science department.

Posted: **Sun Oct 26, 2014 7:00 am**

miggles wrote:that was my argument
my other one was that if the hos isnt wearing a hat you know hes wearing the dermal patch
that isnt really unintuitive. a player on their first round can examine the head of security and see "They are wearing a Dermal Armour Patch on their head" and understand that "oh, his hair looks normal but he has armor on ok"
after a while of playing the game they will understand this concept fully. its called learning. its not like this one detail is going to confuse a new player and frustrate them.
and i mean otherwise, theres not really an argument. people like the item and it isnt overpowered or anything, theres no good reason to remove it.

Not everyone is an experienced player 360notoolbox SS13 veteran.

Let me tell you a little story. I returned from a period of being burnt out to the game, a long while ago. So I'm traitor, or something, and I see this guy running around in a black jumpsuit with this shitty dumpy black coat. He looked like a space hobo, and since he was wearing all black I figured he was a chaplain or something. So I jump him in escape, and he goes down. And I start to hit him in the head. And keep hitting, and hitting, and hitting... Then he pops right up and tases the shit out of me, because oops as it turns out that dumpy hobo was the HoS who happened to be wearing the most powerful and most invisible headgear in the game, which had been added during my hiatus.

its not like this one detail is going to confuse a new player and frustrate them.

Oops, you're wrong.

and it isnt overpowered

Strongest hat in the game, 80 melee protection.

Posted: **Sun Oct 26, 2014 7:04 am**

Yarr the pirate eyepatch

Posted: **Sun Oct 26, 2014 7:04 am**

Saegrimr wrote:The dermal patch isn't even a straight upgrade. Regular sec officers are protected from flashbangs yet Warden and HoS isn't.

paprka commented 3 hours ago on github wrote:The fact that the dermal armor patch is literally invisible powergame bait and completely unbalanced?

There's that "powergame" again, first mining now this?
No department is safe.

Mark my words, next is going to be something in the science department.

Nah, they'll hit sec again and replace batons with literal nerf bats or something.

I've said it before. I'm getting really tired of hearing "powergame" as an excuse to remove things people (Paprka) don't like. That said, I'm also not a fan of the way that PR was handled by the coders-in-charge. The PR was laden with complaints against its addition but it was pushed through anyway. The usual response being "make a thread (to be ignored) on the Freeback forum and leave us alone."

The dermal patch was and is fine. Steelpoint was onto it in the PR. Literally nobody outside of the 'bus complained about it and the HoS is still visible as the HoS while wearing it. Its visible via examine and via assumption because they aren't wearing their hat. This is just another case of.

Saegrimr wrote: [IMAGE OF NEW THING]
-Adds a new thing!
-Removes this other thing I don't like.
[IMAGE OF NEW THING]

Posted: **Sun Oct 26, 2014 7:05 am**

Posted: **Sun Oct 26, 2014 7:06 am**

Cheridan wrote: Strongest hat in the game, 80 melee protection.

Zero flash protection

Posted: **Sun Oct 26, 2014 7:09 am**

cedarbridge wrote:
Cheridan wrote: Strongest hat in the game, 80 melee protection.
Zero flash protection

Right because that matters since the HoS doesn't have sunglasses

Posted: **Sun Oct 26, 2014 7:11 am**

Cheridan wrote:So I'm traitor, or something, and I see this guy running around in a black jumpsuit with this shitty dumpy black coat. He looked like a space hobo, and since he was wearing all black I figured he was a chaplain or something. So I jump him in escape,

>Jumping a dude in a public area without even examining him to see if he's your target or fucking loaded.
Should I regale you the tale of a cult construct being summoned by a sec officer, and as soon as the construct spawns in he immediately kills his master because "I didn't look to see who it was I just saw a sec officer and panicked."
If this was runnin gunnin shootin game I could understand the need for split-second recognizable sprites because notime2roleplay gottashoot .

cedarbridge wrote:Zero flash protection

Flashbang, the bang part specifically. The flash is for the eyewear.

Posted: **Sun Oct 26, 2014 7:12 am**

Can someone explain to me how the dermal patch works again

And how it's able to be stripped from the HoS like a hat

And why it still existed when we actually made head augs that keep your hair intact while providing armoring

You'll are silly

Posted: **Sun Oct 26, 2014 7:12 am**

You guys can always learn the code (cosmetic stuff is easy) to edit and put things back in so they're acceptable. Literally all Paprika is and has been doing.

Posted: **Sun Oct 26, 2014 7:14 am**

I literally removed a forum admin from their forum admin and moderator position for perma-deleting this thread and restored it by hand from a copy i had open in another tab.

You're welcome.

Posted: **Sun Oct 26, 2014 7:14 am**

This would've been easier if cheridan had just admitted to not liking the jensen cosplay

Posted: **Sun Oct 26, 2014 7:16 am**

copey poster

Cheridan wrote:snope

youre telling me you didnt even examine someone before attacking them?
no, that is on you, 100%. you werent even a new player, just someone who hasnt played in a while. you should have known better than to randomly attack someone without even seeing who they are.

Oops, you're wrong.

you werent a new player. like i said, you should know better.

Strongest hat in the game, 80 melee protection.

the SWAT helmet has 80. the HoS' other hat has 80. the riot helmet has 82.
also, its not overpowered. its just strong. if you think its overpowered, shouldnt you nerf it?

in any case, these kinds of mistakes are what teach people important things that they need to watch out for. obviously not everyone is going to understand immediately what every item does and its interaction with other things. ss13 is a game where you learn either by trial and error, or looking everything up.
im sure that after that mistake you knew not to make it again the next time, yes?

Posted: **Sun Oct 26, 2014 7:31 am**

paprika wrote:Can someone explain to me how the dermal patch works again

And how it's able to be stripped from the HoS like a hat

And why it still existed when we actually made head augs that keep your hair intact while providing armoring

You'll are silly

It works the same way the Rapid Part Exchanger does.

Also, implying that head augs are in any way comparable to the HoS hat. Come on Paprka, put your back into it.

Posted: **Sun Oct 26, 2014 7:33 am**

miggles wrote:also, its not overpowered. its just strong. if you think its overpowered, shouldnt you nerf it?

I'm going to help Cheridan out here by saying you can't read.

The literal invisibility made it overpowered, not the strength itself. That's what cheridan is saying. Pay attention and stop embarrassing yourself.

Posted: **Sun Oct 26, 2014 7:39 am**

except

Cheridan wrote:
and it isnt overpowered
Strongest hat in the game, 80 melee protection.

his response to me saying its not overpowered was literally its melee protection value.
maybe you should pay attention?

Posted: **Sun Oct 26, 2014 7:45 am**

Isn't this shit supposed to be subject to mass approval before features are just wantonly removed for no reason other than one coder doesn't like them? This shit is what's fucking up mining as well, and it is the same asshole coder.

Posted: **Sun Oct 26, 2014 7:47 am**

You wouldn't be saying that if you were on the other end of a miner with 50 stim pills in him pickaxing your shit in

This is literally why blessed is infamous on sybil

Posted: **Sun Oct 26, 2014 7:56 am**

But you got rid of the stim pills already, so why remove the dermal? Are we getting stim pills back or something?

And no, blessed used the kinetic acc- I MEAN UH.. HE USED THE MINING DRILL. YEAH THE DRILL SO REMOVE THAT INSTEAD.

Posted: **Sun Oct 26, 2014 8:03 am**

iyaerP wrote:Isn't this shit supposed to be subject to mass approval

No.

Posted: **Sun Oct 26, 2014 8:05 am**

Cheridan wrote:
iyaerP wrote:Isn't this shit supposed to be subject to mass approval
No.

The future of the server is not for the players to decide. The dictatorship of the coderbus marches forward.

Posted: **Sun Oct 26, 2014 8:19 am**

"Erro was right all along" in 3....2....1....

Posted: **Sun Oct 26, 2014 8:21 am**

Alright, lets try to avoid the coderbus slap fight.

If you have concerns about how they are doing things, air them, in their own thread, in actual words.

Trying to see who can make the most edgy meme version of coderbus is literally x in a unrelated thread is just garbage.

Posted: **Sun Oct 26, 2014 8:31 am**

The patch has no flash bang protection, which means flashbangs stun you, unlike the hat. This is a genuine huge downside.
Also the hat is ugly as shit. The Warden hat looks much better.

Also did that PR to make beret's have flash protection ever go through?

Posted: **Sun Oct 26, 2014 8:32 am**

lumipharon wrote:The Warden hat looks much better.

That's because the warden's hat is a symbol of real authority.

Posted: **Sun Oct 26, 2014 8:35 am**

I kinda liked the dermal patch, it "looked" (because it was invisible huehuehueuhe) nice. If I see a HoS without a hat I'll know that he's wearing it, and I'm okay with it. But someone wearing it just coz lmao2stronk it's a legit concern. It's a really small change, so it doesn't trouble me that much. Oh well.

Posted: **Sun Oct 26, 2014 8:41 am**

Yeah, I wouldn't care if the patch wasn't robust (but having flash protection would be nice...) I use it as hos because other avaliable headwear looks shitty/doesn't look nice with the coat.

Posted: **Sun Oct 26, 2014 8:42 am**

lumipharon wrote:The patch has no flash bang protection, which means flashbangs stun you, unlike the hat. This is a genuine huge downside.
Also the hat is ugly as shit. The Warden hat looks much better.

Also did that PR to make beret's have flash protection ever go through?

Naw, I might do that later since the warden and HoS hat have it anyway.

Posted: **Sun Oct 26, 2014 9:31 am**

What happened? Seems someone really wanted this thread gone.

I'll write my thoughts when I get home.

Posted: **Sun Oct 26, 2014 10:02 am**

I really can't bring myself to repeat for the 5th time the reasons why the Dermal Patch is balanced, and many people in this thread have done a good job in that regard.

I'm interested in seeing everyone's opinion on this subject, its good to see nor did I expect this thread to blow up in activity.

--------------------

Moving on.

I've had some balance plans in the works in regards to the HoS hat and its protection for some time now. I was/am planning to do a PR on that. The changes I'm proposing, alongside this issue, are:

Readdition of the Dermal Patch to the HoS's locker
Moving the new "Wardens Hat" from the HoS's Locker to the Warden's locker as a alt Warden hat.
Changing the HoS's armour values to offer more overall good protection but not be very good in one field. My WIP numbers are (65 melee, 50 laser, 50 bullet, 20-30 energy, 50 bomb/its slightly less than the current HoS armour) This would make the HoS Armour/Hat overall robust but not the most single powerful armour in one field. Unlike the current situation where its super robust.
Either the readdition of the removed HoS black jumpsuit or a new sprited one.

Posted: **Sun Oct 26, 2014 10:03 am**

cheridan hard deleted the thread and was removed from the forum mod list for it
MSO manually replaced it

Posted: **Sun Oct 26, 2014 10:05 am**

That's childish, more so considering Cheridan has a vested interesting in this issue (He was one to champion for the patches removal and he was the one to merge the PR)

But lets stay on topic.

Posted: **Sun Oct 26, 2014 10:53 am**

MrStonedOne wrote:I literally removed a forum admin from their forum admin and moderator position for perma-deleting this thread and restored it by hand from a copy i had open in another tab.

You're welcome.

Posted: **Sun Oct 26, 2014 11:06 am**

paprika wrote:"Erro was right all along" in 3....2....1....

Nobody ever said he wasn't, they just banished him from the realm.

Posted: **Sun Oct 26, 2014 12:19 pm**

While I do like the Drill hat, I think it suits the Warden better than the HoS.

I'll concede with the black jumpsuit, and look at returning the Dermal Patch, and give the Warden the Drill hat. I've also adjusted the armour values of the HoS Armour/Hat (melee = 65, bullet = 30, laser = 50, energy = 25, bomb = 25, bio = 0, rad = 0)

I'll wait a while to get more opinions before I do anything, I would like to hear from Pap/Cheridan on this possibility.

Posted: **Sun Oct 26, 2014 5:18 pm**

I can understand the removal of the jumpsuit, but removing the dermal armour? It's an iconic part of being HoS, that's all there is to it, there doesn't have to be any logic, and the HoS is pretty recognisable

Next someone will make a PR making no weapons fit in bags so you can't hide them either

Posted: **Sun Oct 26, 2014 6:15 pm**

I disagree with the removal of cosplay options. It is more than just the HoS at this point as well. If you are not familiar with something someone is wearing, you examine him. I am not sure, but there seems to be a trend starting up about removing SS13's references to other games and media. Some of these arguments cite copyright infiringement, while others are based on nothing more than the author's personal taste. I do not know why such a thing is happening now, but I do not like it at all.

Keeping on topic, I do think the Jensen stuff should stay. Make the Jensen shades into SecHUDs so that they can also be given to the HoS - right now the outfit is incomplete. You could nerf it to be a normal SO helmet instead, so it not so 'overpowered'.

Posted: **Sun Oct 26, 2014 9:00 pm**

GEE GUYS DID YOU NOTICE HOW I DIDN'T REMOVE THE WHIMSY RD ALT OUTFIT WHEN A BETTER SPRITE WAS GIVEN TO ME FOR IT

MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMAYBE you guys should all collaborate on a new primarily-black alternative jumpsuit for the HoS, with a sprite that doesn't look like an edgy skintight ninja outfit? Put some red on it so it's still identifiable as a security outfit, without drawn-on muscles which look shitty on females, send me the DMI on my steam, and I will PERSONALLY ADD IT TO THE GAME. Again, blackcurity is fine, but at least put some red on it. Look at the security hardsuit, a perfect example of something that's black-focused but still retaining security aesthetic with the red shoulders and completely red helmet. Seriously, it's fucking piss easy, but I'm not going to waste my time making a better black jumpsuit, I simply removed the jensen shit altogether. It just needs at least SOME semblance of departmental identity. Call it "Head of security tactical jumpsuit". Holy shit, watch literally nobody give a shit when it's added! It's like magic! It's almost like alternative jumpsuits and choice are perfectly fine when they don't look like shit and are creative and not edgy cosplay garbage! WOAH!!!1

As far as the dermal patch goes? It's shit. "I want to show off my stupid haircut but still be protected with a snowflake item!" is terrible mentality and that would NEVER be added to the code today. It's powergame crap and it'd be WAY more robust of you to forego a helmet all together because you don't want to mess up your hair.

Posted: **Sun Oct 26, 2014 9:32 pm**

paprika wrote:opinions

Posted: **Mon Oct 27, 2014 5:24 am**

There's maintainers who want the dermal patch back? Color me surprised.

Posted: **Mon Oct 27, 2014 5:42 am**

Isn't the Ninja being removed from the game anyway? But honestly that does not matter, saying we MUST remove a uniform option because it might look similar to another uniform is bollocks. There is no other similar black uniform on the station anywhere and Ninja's were a extremely rare event to begin with.

I just can't understand what exactly paprika's PR was meant to do for the game in a positive matter. Yes moving the clothing into one locker was a good thing but everything else done just screams out that "my opinion on clothing > your opinion on clothing" not to mention that paprika simply does not want to compromise or even understand that a majority of people really want to revert his change.

Posted: **Mon Oct 27, 2014 6:18 am**

Steelpoint wrote: not to mention that paprika simply does not want to compromise

paprika wrote:GEE GUYS DID YOU NOTICE HOW I DIDN'T REMOVE THE WHIMSY RD ALT OUTFIT WHEN A BETTER SPRITE WAS GIVEN TO ME FOR IT

MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMAYBE you guys should all collaborate on a new primarily-black alternative jumpsuit for the HoS, with a sprite that doesn't look like an edgy skintight ninja outfit? Put some red on it so it's still identifiable as a security outfit, without drawn-on muscles which look shitty on females, send me the DMI on my steam, and I will PERSONALLY ADD IT TO THE GAME.

I'm not sure if you're stupid or ignorant at this point, stop pushing this bogus agenda that I'm a fun hater. The uniform looked like shit, sorry Adam Jensen.

Posted: **Mon Oct 27, 2014 6:30 am**

paprika wrote:The uniform looked like shit, sorry Adam Jensen.

aka

paprika wrote:opinions

Posted: **Mon Oct 27, 2014 6:37 am**

miggles wrote:
paprika wrote:The uniform looked like shit, sorry Adam Jensen.
aka
paprika wrote:opinions

OPINIONS ARE FACT.
OPINIONS ARE TRUTH.
HEIL TRUFAPION.

/tg/Station 13

Dermal Armour Patch: Good night sweet prince

Dermal Armour Patch: Good night sweet prince

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