Dont make space slow please

Tue Nov 04, 2014 12:24 pm

Bottom post of the previous page:

Lo6a4evskiy wrote:Okay, can you just tell everyone what problem did you try to fix and how this fixed it and why is it worth huge hate towards this change and people dying to 1x1 space tile hull breach in packs. Seriously, just yesterday I saw 4 corpses near one broken window.

Antagonists hiding in space, mostly. I wanted to make that an unattractive option vs staying on the station or at least an option with some legitimate downsides.

Had a discussion with the second issue and the consensus seemed to be that the cold slowdown was needed to make hull breaches sufficiently dangerous.

Post by **lumipharon** » Tue Nov 04, 2014 1:01 pm #40806

Saegrimr wrote:Taserwalking has kind of been a thing for a while for the unlucky secborg who spaced himself.

It's not that. All lasers/tasers and I assume other projectiles, fling you around like throwing things. Also today during a blob round, I flew into the area of space in engineering maint, got stuck ON NOTHING, in the middle of space, and was throwing shit, but nothing would make me move, it was weird as shit.

But yeah this entire change seems largely pointless, it didn't achieve it's supposed goal (and ops have pinpointers anyway, or you know, just flying in a straight line to the station), and make space just utterly painful. Trying to explore space is now just an hour of slowboating painstakingly slow. Also carp in space are pretty awful.

Lo6a4evskiy · Post by **Lo6a4evskiy** » Tue Nov 04, 2014 2:48 pm #40818

Well, actually make it so oxygen supply doesn't last whole round without refueling. Make default oxygen tanks last may be five minutes by default on 16 pressure. Atmos refueling may even become relevant.

I mean, this seems like a terrible way to solve a non-issue. Antags hiding in space? I haven't seen anyone complain about that.

ExplosiveCrate · Tue Nov 04, 2014 3:03 pm

The only time I've seen antags hide in space is a loooong time ago when cultists sometimes built space bases so they could recall the shuttle in peace. Most antags wouldn't even go near space because there was a chance of slipping and not recovering in time (which, by the way, is now impossible because of this change).

Murazor · Post by **Murazor** » Tue Nov 04, 2014 4:05 pm #40832

Heres how nuke-ops stay together. They look at the console, whatever direction it says, fly opposite of that. God damn, we really need to stop with the kiddie gloves, if people are that bad that they can't figure out the opposite of a cardinal direction, then they need to be playing a brainrotted assistant instead.

cedarbridge · Post by **cedarbridge** » Tue Nov 04, 2014 4:55 pm #40841

MisterPerson wrote:Antagonists hiding in space, mostly. I wanted to make that an unattractive option vs staying on the station or at least an option with some legitimate downsides.

It has the downside of not actually having contact with target or crew. If you're in space, you cannot see or interact directly with things on the station sans-remote signalers which take work to set up and only apply to certain things anyway. Staying on station already provides linear mobility and the number of things accessible via space is very limited. Space should be a viable escape route since the means of returning to the main station (where targets and theft targets are) is only possible through a limited number of real vectors,

Miauw · Post by **Miauw** » Tue Nov 04, 2014 6:15 pm #40852

lumipharon wrote:
Saegrimr wrote:Taserwalking has kind of been a thing for a while for the unlucky secborg who spaced himself.
It's not that. All lasers/tasers and I assume other projectiles, fling you around like throwing things. Also today during a blob round, I flew into the area of space in engineering maint, got stuck ON NOTHING, in the middle of space, and was throwing shit, but nothing would make me move, it was weird as shit.

No, they don't fling you around. They just count as solid floor for the purpose of pushing yourself off of.

Also, that second thing sounds like a bug.

Lo6a4evskiy · Post by **Lo6a4evskiy** » Tue Nov 04, 2014 6:27 pm #40857

There's actually quite a few bugs following this. Being able to drag buckled up people (who cannot move until they get a chair under them so they can unbuckle) is I think the result of this change. Something else I don't quite remember.

Can we just roll it back and start over with something better?

Oldman Robustin · Tue Nov 04, 2014 9:49 pm

Lo6a4evskiy wrote:Well, actually make it so oxygen supply doesn't last whole round without refueling. Make default oxygen tanks last may be five minutes by default on 16 pressure. Atmos refueling may even become relevant.

I mean, this seems like a terrible way to solve a non-issue. Antags hiding in space? I haven't seen anyone complain about that.

Everyone come and stare, this is one of the supremely rare moments where Lo6a and I will agree on something.

The justification for these changes has become so contorted and idiotic the comments defending this change feel like strawman arguments I would use to try and humiliate coderlogic. Except these aren't works of satire, MisterPerson is actually here saying these things.

Incomptinence · Tue Nov 04, 2014 9:59 pm

I would say if anything this is a buff to hiding in space. Now simply positioning yourself outside the hull puts a huge barrier of time between you and anyone who may look for you.

Raven776 · Post by **Raven776** » Tue Nov 04, 2014 10:46 pm #40921

Lo6a4evskiy wrote:There's actually quite a few bugs following this. Being able to drag buckled up people (who cannot move until they get a chair under them so they can unbuckle) is I think the result of this change. Something else I don't quite remember.

Can we just roll it back and start over with something better?

Try hitting the resist button?

Oldman Robustin · Tue Nov 04, 2014 11:38 pm

Incomptinence wrote:I would say if anything this is a buff to hiding in space. Now simply positioning yourself outside the hull puts a huge barrier of time between you and anyone who may look for you.

Correct

Before: Well I'll get a jetpack and I can hunt down Mr.Antag in a couple minutes tops

After: Fuck space, fuck space movement, fuck that, unless he's setting up a nuke I'm not going out there to hunt anyone as security.

Post by **oranges** » Tue Nov 04, 2014 11:50 pm #40952

Improve not remove sorry Lo6a

iyaerP · Post by **iyaerP** » Wed Nov 05, 2014 5:11 am #41016

I tried to wire the solars today. It was like pulling teeth. This can't get reverted quickly enough. Setting up the singulo is also horrid. Don't expect many people to play engineer or do ANYTHING in space until this gets reverted.

ExplosiveCrate · Wed Nov 05, 2014 5:45 am

It's so much faster to just pave over the open space in the singulo containment room and THEN set the shields up than it is to have to deal with syrupspace.

omnitricks · Post by **omnitricks** » Wed Nov 05, 2014 6:06 am #41029

Seriously? What? This change is just because of nuke ops getting lost? That is a stupid reasoning. If the flukes can't even get to the shuttle or use pinpointers they should just have it disabled.

Also slow space is retarded. I cannot get back into the shuttle if I slip, I cannot get back if I get pushed out. Hell I cannot even retrieve corpses which are stuck by the window which adds MY body to the count even with oxygen.

This is proof that coders do not even play the game or just use their coder powers to make the game the way they want it. Or as a reaction to something they don't like. What did you play nuke ops and get the redtext because some fluke or you got lost trying to get to the shuttle?

Someone just revert this please. Its not needed. more importantly its not wanted by most of the people that has voiced their opinion here. The only reason its not reverting is because "the coder refuses" more than anything else.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Wed Nov 05, 2014 6:18 am #41032

If you want to make hull breaches more deadly, why not find alternative ways to actually make them a threat such as rapidly sucking out anything nearby or very quickly draining oxygen. Or retooling firelocks to also close when air pressure drops.

Space being slow fails to address the problems it set out to do. I've personally seen ingame Nuke Ops still get lost in space and that comes down to the fact that the player fails in basic navigation and team cohesion, its not a code problem nor is it solvable via code unless you implement a mini-map or force the ops to tie themselves together.

Engineers (and atmo techs to a extent) got nerfed severely since being in space becomes a exercise in patience and futility as even setting up the solar array's turns into a long chore let alone the difficulty in fixing hull breaches, not to mention that if your even near a bomb's when it blows up, even if you survive the blast, your going to die as you will not be able to move away from the space tiles before you succumb, and no one will be able to help you.

Antags in space are even more powerful if they have a ranged weapon, good luck dodging their shots.

Also, lord help you if you accidentally miss a tile and get stuck in open space.

iyaerP · Post by **iyaerP** » Wed Nov 05, 2014 6:19 am #41033

Honestly, that is ALWAYS why they refuse to revert shitty changes. When paparika put fucking poison in mining stimms and they removed the HoS hat, they refused to reimplement it basically because he didn't like them. Which really reads like he got dunked by a miner on stimms and got wreked when he tried to beat HoS in the head and the hos was wearing his dermal patch.

Post by **lumipharon** » Thu Nov 06, 2014 1:22 am #41312

Miauw wrote:
lumipharon wrote:
Saegrimr wrote:Taserwalking has kind of been a thing for a while for the unlucky secborg who spaced himself.
It's not that. All lasers/tasers and I assume other projectiles, fling you around like throwing things. Also today during a blob round, I flew into the area of space in engineering maint, got stuck ON NOTHING, in the middle of space, and was throwing shit, but nothing would make me move, it was weird as shit.
No, they don't fling you around. They just count as solid floor for the purpose of pushing yourself off of.

Also, that second thing sounds like a bug.

I was literally not touching my movement keys, flying about by shooting tasers, I dunno man.

Post by **oranges** » Thu Nov 06, 2014 2:35 am #41331

MisterPerson wrote:Sadly it seem slow jetpacking did nothing to help nuke ops, based on the feedback I've gotten. The current plan is to make jetpacking fast again and try something else to keep nuke ops together. Also the general slow on nogravity movement is a bit much, so I'll raise that up a bit too too.

callanrockslol · Sat Nov 08, 2014 10:13 am

iyaerP wrote:Honestly, that is ALWAYS why they refuse to revert shitty changes. When paparika put fucking poison in mining stimms and they removed the HoS hat, they refused to reimplement it basically because he didn't like them. Which really reads like he got dunked by a miner on stimms and got wreked when he tried to beat HoS in the head and the hos was wearing his dermal patch.

They've always been like this after they declared independence, what they need is a good annexing

leibniz · Post by **leibniz** » Sat Nov 08, 2014 12:53 pm #41981

MisterPerson wrote:It might be too slow. These things are hard to gauge alone. Jetpacking might also be too slow specifically, but I feel my "nuke ops don't form teams because they can't follow each other" theory is at least plausible enough to try for a week.

Can you please post some news, a week has elapsed

Apsis · Post by **Apsis** » Sat Nov 08, 2014 3:37 pm #41992

leibniz wrote:
MisterPerson wrote:It might be too slow. These things are hard to gauge alone. Jetpacking might also be too slow specifically, but I feel my "nuke ops don't form teams because they can't follow each other" theory is at least plausible enough to try for a week.
Can you please post some news, a week has elapsed

Well, the code freeze just started a few days ago, so unless all of these issues are bugs, we're gonna have to wait.

leibniz · Post by **leibniz** » Sat Nov 08, 2014 3:47 pm #41994

Apsis wrote:
leibniz wrote:
MisterPerson wrote:It might be too slow. These things are hard to gauge alone. Jetpacking might also be too slow specifically, but I feel my "nuke ops don't form teams because they can't follow each other" theory is at least plausible enough to try for a week.
Can you please post some news, a week has elapsed
Well, the code freeze just started a few days ago, so unless all of these issues are bugs, we're gonna have to wait.

Fixing the speed is not a feature.
Is changing polyacid and blobbernauts forbidden too? Because then we will have a fun wait until december.

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Sat Nov 08, 2014 5:16 pm #42005

Yeah mrperson editing this will not break the freeze at all and if it does we can just riot and protest cheridan's oppression of space movement

omnitricks · Post by **omnitricks** » Mon Nov 10, 2014 11:09 am #42381

When is this going to be fixed? We can't even retrieve bodies from the airlock without adding to the number of corpses because of this shortsighted change.

Random Players · Mon Nov 10, 2014 11:42 am

There's a PR up already, I noticed:
https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/5801

cedarbridge · Post by **cedarbridge** » Mon Nov 10, 2014 4:45 pm #42416

Random Players wrote:There's a PR up already, I noticed:
https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/5801

I still don't understand why flying with a jetpack on in a frictionless void will still cause you to travel slower than running in a pressurized environment. It still remains a change looking for a reason for existence and finding none.

soulgamer · Post by **soulgamer** » Mon Nov 10, 2014 6:12 pm #42433

kevinthezhang wrote:Man low speed sucks so bad how this probably extended the time it takes to make a full station traversal (from the outside) by like 8x

I remember being able to circumnavigate the station in about 1.5 minutes. Now it takes about 10-15

Post by **MisterPerson** » Mon Nov 10, 2014 6:42 pm #42443

soulgamer wrote:
kevinthezhang wrote:Man low speed sucks so bad how this probably extended the time it takes to make a full station traversal (from the outside) by like 8x
I remember being able to circumnavigate the station in about 1.5 minutes. Now it takes about 10-15

Working as intended. Get inside.

leibniz · Post by **leibniz** » Mon Nov 10, 2014 6:50 pm #42446

MisterPerson wrote:
soulgamer wrote:
kevinthezhang wrote:Man low speed sucks so bad how this probably extended the time it takes to make a full station traversal (from the outside) by like 8x
I remember being able to circumnavigate the station in about 1.5 minutes. Now it takes about 10-15
Working as intended. Get inside.

I have literally lost a round as a nukeop because it takes a lot of time to get back to the shuttle. (because of a change that was supposed to help)
It is also impossible to outrun spacecarp and blobbernauts in space... with a jetpack.
These too were intended?

Post by **MisterPerson** » Mon Nov 10, 2014 7:01 pm #42449

leibniz wrote:
I have literally lost a round as a nukeop because it takes a lot of time to get back to the shuttle. (because of a change that was supposed to help)
It is also impossible to outrun spacecarp and blobbernauts in space... with a jetpack.
These too were intended?

Well to be fair, the carp would catch you on the corners anyway because they can move diagonally.

But no, obviously that part wasn't intended.

bandit · Post by **bandit** » Mon Nov 10, 2014 7:34 pm #42456

Weird idea: How about making this tied to the gravity generator somehow? So you can set the station's gravitational pull, affecting speed around the hull and such?

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Mon Nov 10, 2014 8:17 pm #42468

>implying the CE wouldn't go to grav gen every round and make gravity as low as possible to make everyone move sanic

Incomptinence · Mon Nov 10, 2014 9:36 pm

How about instead of space the station is located in a giant sea of molasses and we breathe glue. That way the race to out slow a turtle could make immersive sense.

RG4 · Post by **RG4** » Tue Nov 11, 2014 12:57 am #42566

Next to the run speed decrease this had to be the most universally hated "update" ever done. /TG/ is most certainly not bay there is no need for shitspace.

cedarbridge · Post by **cedarbridge** » Tue Nov 11, 2014 1:41 am #42573

Revert the slowspace nonsense and leave in the hilarious singulo-slide and we're golden. Slowspace is shitspace solving a problem that doesn't exist.

Oldman Robustin · Tue Nov 11, 2014 5:28 am

MisterPerson wrote:
soulgamer wrote:
kevinthezhang wrote:Man low speed sucks so bad how this probably extended the time it takes to make a full station traversal (from the outside) by like 8x
I remember being able to circumnavigate the station in about 1.5 minutes. Now it takes about 10-15
Working as intended. Get inside.

Holy shit at least acknowledge that nobody else wants it "working" this way. "Working as intended" doesn't really apply when you're the only person who wants it to work that way.

RG4 · Post by **RG4** » Tue Nov 11, 2014 6:28 am #42622

Oldman Robustin wrote:
MisterPerson wrote:
soulgamer wrote:
kevinthezhang wrote:Man low speed sucks so bad how this probably extended the time it takes to make a full station traversal (from the outside) by like 8x
I remember being able to circumnavigate the station in about 1.5 minutes. Now it takes about 10-15
Working as intended. Get inside.
Holy shit at least acknowledge that nobody else wants it "working" this way. "Working as intended" doesn't really apply when you're the only person who wants it to work that way.

In short nobody likes this at all because you ruined a gameplay component for the sake of ~realism~ or some other stupid shit.

ExplosiveCrate · Tue Nov 11, 2014 6:42 am

It's not even realism. From what I can gather this change was made because nuke ops sometimes got lost on their way to and from the shuttle.

That's it. And the change didn't even fix the issue. If anything, it made the issue worse.

Post by **lumipharon** » Tue Nov 11, 2014 6:47 am #42629

https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/5801
This half assed change got merged.

ExplosiveCrate · Tue Nov 11, 2014 6:59 am

Then make a PR that reverts the slowdown, call it a fix.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Tue Nov 11, 2014 11:11 am #42667

I just played a round where I died in maint because I had the audacity of entering a area that had no pressure and suddenly I could not even get out before being knocked into critical. That was the highest level of bullshit as I had no chance or warning of avoiding that death, I could not even turn back.

This is bluntly a bad, if not a shit, change and needs to be reverted.

Miauw · Post by **Miauw** » Tue Nov 11, 2014 12:34 pm #42682

Steelpoint wrote:I just played a round where I died in maint because I had the audacity of entering a area that had no pressure and suddenly I could not even get out before being knocked into critical. That was the highest level of bullshit as I had no chance or warning of avoiding that death, I could not even turn back.

This is bluntly a bad, if not a shit, change and needs to be reverted.

that has literally nothing to do with space movement if there was no space under your feet.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Tue Nov 11, 2014 12:48 pm #42684

Miauw wrote: that has literally nothing to do with space movement if there was no space under your feet.

Try standing in a space exposed tile for a second and try getting back in the station, have fun dying.

You cannot get back inside the station if you are standing, or pushed, onto a space exposed tile. Barring the space carp this older image very accuratly showcases the inevitable outcome.

Do you want to know why its relevant to space movement? Because you cannot move fast enough onto the station.

Miauw · Post by **Miauw** » Tue Nov 11, 2014 12:58 pm #42687

that was already happening before this change.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Tue Nov 11, 2014 12:59 pm #42688

Miauw wrote:that was already happening before this change.

I think the "dead' state is occuring faster then it did before.

Even if I'm wrong, this is still a bad change as highlighted by myself and others in this thread prior. It's so painful to be in space, wiring the solars is a exercise in frustration, antags now actually have a boost in space since now anyone who wants to attack them can't do it and the stated change, helping ops, did not work.

Miauw · Post by **Miauw** » Tue Nov 11, 2014 2:10 pm #42694

thats why space movement was sped up again.
you're literally mad about nothing. how are we going to make this game better if we do literally no experiments.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Tue Nov 11, 2014 2:49 pm #42697

We did experiment, I tried out the (token) speed improvement, its still subpar.

I can understand the initial reason for the speed change, to nerf people in no-gravity situations. However the knock on effect is that it's crippled any form of off station activity, the old system we had where you could either...

Move Slowly: You would move slowly to avoid slipping or misjudging your movement, this allowed the player the ability to alter their speed and judge when to move faster or slower. A calculated space walk.
Move Fast: For when you wanted to get from A to B ASAP. Doing this would allow you to get to where you need to go extremely fast however you took the significant risk of slipping or falling of the station.

That was overall a good system.

Now let me examine how this change has effected everyone.

Non-Antags

Engineers: Doing simple tasks such as wiring the solar array's or fixing hull breaches is now extreamly slow to do, people are not bothering with the arrays due to how tedious it is.
Atmo Techs: Same as above.
Security: Catching a criminal in space is now very difficult if not impossible. Moving into space is a no-go as that gives the advantage to the antagonist who can freely attack you. Arresting them is also tedious as you will have to keep stunning them with a ranged weapon for every step you take. Space based antags are now very hard to deal with barring the application of lasers.
Medical: Good luck rescuing people caught in a space exposed tile, due to the speed change anyone who tries to help will also get sucked into space (Sort of like a black quicksand).

Antagonists: Note that I've had personal experience with this as I've played the game as several of these antags as of late.

Traitors/Changelings/Non-Special antags: They gain a massive advantage in being in space, people cannot pursue them into space because if they do you can freely attack them as they slowly expose themselves. You are however very slow in moving around the station.
Nuke Ops: No change, ops still get lost very easily.
Wizard: 10 minutes of space walking for the win.
Aliens: HAAHAHAHAHHAHA! Your unstoppable, you don't suffer any speed penalty in space and any human in space is a dead human. Remove atmospherics from the station/maint and you win. (Seriously its just sad to watch)

This is a change which solves nothing and adds more problems.

Lo6a4evskiy · Post by **Lo6a4evskiy** » Tue Nov 11, 2014 3:10 pm #42700

Steelpoint wrote:I can understand the initial reason for the speed change, to nerf people in no-gravity situations.

Not really, it's to make people go inside for whatever reason. There's a billion better and more subtle ways to do it, but w/e.

To be fair, with the amount of shit thrown around I wouldn't admit it was wrong either at this point. I don't think many of us would.

Miauw · Post by **Miauw** » Tue Nov 11, 2014 4:19 pm #42710

is "token" the new buzzword?
the only real danger involved in space walks was carp or meteors, there was no real danger of slipping away. and even then, you could just take a fire extinguisher (which are incredibly plentiful) or throw something like a flashlight. Moving through space was really fast in all cases and only a tiny bit slower if you needed to round outward-pointing corners.

I don't really see the "extreme slowness" with going out into space as an engineer. I was leisurely building a space cooler outside atmos as the CE the other day, when meteors struck xenobio, and I rushed there to help (through space because access a shit). It worked fairly well.

Wizards get a teleport scroll, they dont need to be outside the station ever basically.
i don't get your traitor argument. everybody is really slow in space, traitors dont magically move faster.

also, you don't seem to get this: ATMOSPHERICS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS CHANGE. PEOPLE WOULD GET SUCKED OUT BEFORE. THIS CHANGE DOES NOT AFFECT THAT. I HAVE PERSONALLY DIED TO BEING SUCKED OUT AN AIRLOCK MANY TIMES. and yes aliens are broken. you may just as well use "water is wet" as an argument.