Stun/Slip Rework

[oranges]

I am going to fuck with stuns and slips

I am changing slipping to not drop your weapons, and still let you click on things and you crawl around for a short period - note if you're grabbed during this time, you can't move

Potentially: I'm thinking about making it so you can't access your inventory while in the crawling state.

I am changing stuns to also prevent hand usage but for a shorter period, but immobilize the target for longer, so you can reapply the stun when close to finish them off.

Slips become mobility counters only and you still have to finish the job with other means and potentially get close to your target depending on your weapons, and if they have a ranged weapon, it's not so cut and dry.

Stuns are still a hard counter, but there still needs to be a way for security to be able to grab people without getting reverse harmbatoned, although I guess if both sides could use weapons then stuns would be signficantly less dangerous.

We'll see how this plays out and then look at further adjustments.

Implementation plan:
Add a new movement mode, crawling, that is for crit and slipped modes (maybe we will let you also crawl if you want to be role playing a anime adminuseless person or something). You can still use items in your hands but you move much slower, A config option should be present that also disables use of inventory (so that you only have the items in your hand)

All non electrical stuns should be switched to transition people forcefully into that movement mode until the stun timer has elapsed (use the traits system)

Only electrical stuns will remain as also prevent interaction with the world (for half the time of the overall stun), otherwise the effects are the same as above. Ideally - a short total immobilization as you are stunned (no moving or using items, should be slightly more than the time required to handcuff someone), then you crawl around in shock for another period of time (standard stun length, could be lengthened)

[leibniz]

madlad

godspeed

[Coolguy3289]

I like this rework!

[SpaceInaba]

good ideas here 10/10

[Spyroshark]

being able to use ranged weapons while laying down would be very unfair. Maybe limit what can be used while crawling?

[subject217]

being able to use ranged weapons while laying down would be very unfair. Maybe limit what can be used while crawling?

Stun on stun combat still comes with hands being disabled. Being able to use ranged weapons when being slipped is a good thing, and if your justification for it not being so is "I can't alt click a fire extinguisher and loot a security officer instantly!" then you're part of the problem.

Edit: Explicitly, consider the good old maintenance 1 tile water slip trap. If this slip change is in place, you can still use it easily as an escape mechanism, it just doesn't become a free ride to sec gear. One of the biggest issues with /tg/ speed and the way it plays out is that in a chase, there is a massive advantage to whoever is running away. This change lessens that advantage considerably when you've only got slips to work with.

[Stickymayhem]

This is going to be a disaster like every attempt I can't wait to see it.

My only suggestion would be you can't move at all if you have something in both hands. You need one arm free to crawl.

[Lumbermancer]

What about flashbangs. They must remain the same.

[DemonFiren]

lmao@security main going all "your stuns should get fucked but not mine"

[BeeSting12]

Flashbangs should make you crawl around like any other nonelectrical stun. Which category would disablers fall under? Riot shotguns w/ rubber shot? I'm assuming the latter would be nonelectrical, which is fair enough since they're already kinda stupid.

Overall I think these are gonna be good changes.

[Nabski]

I assume this applies to cult stuns as well?

I feel like this is going to make stamina damage much stronger.

[wesoda25]

Would soap still qualify as a stun? I’d say their rarity and the fact that they take a little skill to pull off makes them better than other slips, not to mention they’re part of ss13.

I know it sounds like I’m trying to keep some powergame tool (kinda is) but now if you throw soap to slip, you can’t reclaim it? I feel as if slips would work better if its a short hard stun (you keep your weapons in hand, 1-2 seconds), followed by crawling and being able to use melee shit if it was in hand already.

For what it matters I think the current stun system is fine. Slips just need changing.

[Ayy Lemoh]

What about flashbangs. They must remain the same.

I'm pretty sure flashbangs and flashes stun so they're not useless.

They blind you in real life. Only way you'd fall down when blind is if you moved around and tripped.

It would make more sense if you crawled then.

[Terra_GS]

Hope this makes combat more interesting than just whoever stuns first wins. Also looking forward to complaints about people crawling under plastic flaps.

[kevinz000]

full support +1

[ShadowDimentio]

Stop trying to fuck with stuns it's only going to shit up combat even worse.

But of all the shit ideas this one seems the least shit. It's still not going to work though.

[Lumbermancer]

lmao@security main going all "your stuns should get fucked but not mine"

Do you want me to use 12 gauge buckshot instead?

[subject217]

Would soap still qualify as a stun? I’d say their rarity and the fact that they take a little skill to pull off makes them better than other slips, not to mention they’re part of ss13.

run down hallway -> person chasing you -> throw soap backwards -> it slips them before they even see it because of speed

wow that sure was hard!

[XDTM]

At least if they kill you they have to cut your arm off to get your gun

[Suicidalpickles]

As somebody who frequently uses waterbottle slips, I do have to say this change I wouldn't mind much, the meta of baiting sec/command into chases and slipping them for a free weapon is pretty dumb with how easy it tends to be.

Not sure about the whole using items while slipping at the same time thing tho. Maybe somehow give ranged weapons more inaccuracy while slipping?

[PKPenguin321]

repostan form discord
If I'm reading this right it sounds like combat will devolve into two semi-stunned people tazing each other from the floor until one of them runs out?
Like if you can still crawl and attack from the ground while "stunned" what's stopping you from just stunning back if you're equipped for it
Also sounds like things that kill super quick like the esword will be basically unaffected while everything else is effectively nerfed globally
I don't really get how these changes really improve anything but again I might be misinterpreting

[Wyzack]

Why would you bother stunning back when you could use lethals?

[PKPenguin321]

Why would you bother stunning back when you could use lethals?

for the short period of preventing hand usage. if you're stunned just stun them back

[subject217]

Spoiler:

repostan form discord
If I'm reading this right it sounds like combat will devolve into two semi-stunned people tazing each other from the floor until one of them runs out?
Like if you can still crawl and attack from the ground while "stunned" what's stopping you from just stunning back if you're equipped for it
Also sounds like things that kill super quick like the esword will be basically unaffected while everything else is effectively nerfed globally
I don't really get how these changes really improve anything but again I might be misinterpreting

only slips would let you fire back immediately, tasers and the like would still remove your ability to use your hands, which should include dropping whatever you're holding. oranges hasn't elaborated on "short period" but my guess is that it'd be like 5 seconds of hands disabled and 10 seconds of being knocked down.

[Stickymayhem]

Spoiler:

repostan form discord
If I'm reading this right it sounds like combat will devolve into two semi-stunned people tazing each other from the floor until one of them runs out?
Like if you can still crawl and attack from the ground while "stunned" what's stopping you from just stunning back if you're equipped for it
Also sounds like things that kill super quick like the esword will be basically unaffected while everything else is effectively nerfed globally
I don't really get how these changes really improve anything but again I might be misinterpreting

only slips would let you fire back immediately, tasers and the like would still remove your ability to use your hands, which should include dropping whatever you're holding. oranges hasn't elaborated on "short period" but my guess is that it'd be like 5 seconds of hands disabled and 10 seconds of being knocked down.

10 seconds is a decade in ss13 combat time.

[Lumbermancer]

Imagine, if you will, a taser working like a real taser. You shoot, electrode latches onto your target, and then you pump electricity through it. But, you have to hold it, to keep it stunned. And, if you holster your taser, stun stops. You ought to hold target tased for a while, and drain his stamina, for a longer stun.

[Lumbermancer]

And the most robust security award goes to...

[DemonFiren]

the guy with the grenade implant and autocloner in maint

lizards not having the last laugh is non-canon

[Stickymayhem]

comic

nice

I already walk around with a lethal compact shotgun and blast people's torso off at any opportunity

[Dr_bee]

If possible, make ranged stuns less powerful than melee stuns. That way disablers and tasers are mostly for slowing down a perp but ole' painless stun batons are the primary method of arresting.

Leads to a loop of shoot your target to weaken them then go in for the more powerful stun with the baton, leading to a bit more depth to non-lethal combat.

But if you are going to nerf stuns, consider increasing the ammo count on energy stun weapons like the taser and disabler, so there is a reason to use them over just shooting the perp into crit with shotgun slugs or lasers.

[Pepper]

What exactly is the planned combat loop here? This looks like it makes it impossible for a solo player to defeat any more than one person in a fight, let alone run away.

[RogueSteampunker]

ITT: oranges actually has a good idea, and the sec mains rise from the taser fields to screech

In all seriousness, though. Sec can and should eat as much of a nerf as the rest of stuns are getting, since "but then I gotta use lethals" does not work as an argument. Seriously, this just makes it so you aren't impossibly fucked when you're slipped. This also means that, if you have a method to reapply that stun, the other man's hands are useless. In this case, you're still stunning and cuffing a perp as usual, only now you gotta actually make sure you get em in a proper grab so they don't crawl away, not just resort to "muh buckshot"

Whereas this ALSO makes the less multi-applyable stuns harder to abuse, effectively leaving sec's toys at a point where they can much more easily keep a person down, at the cost of needing charges.

[Stickymayhem]

ITT: oranges actually has a good idea, and the sec mains rise from the taser fields to screech

In all seriousness, though. Sec can and should eat as much of a nerf as the rest of stuns are getting, since "but then I gotta use lethals" does not work as an argument. Seriously, this just makes it so you aren't impossibly fucked when you're slipped. This also means that, if you have a method to reapply that stun, the other man's hands are useless. In this case, you're still stunning and cuffing a perp as usual, only now you gotta actually make sure you get em in a proper grab so they don't crawl away, not just resort to "muh buckshot"

Whereas this ALSO makes the less multi-applyable stuns harder to abuse, effectively leaving sec's toys at a point where they can much more easily keep a person down, at the cost of needing charges.

If stuns aren't effective, crit will become the new stun.

[mattroks101]

Nice to see a TG InterBay fork.

[RogueSteampunker]

That's the thing, sticky. They'll still be effective, assuming people don't jump to "well, time to bring out the combat shotties" and instead just realize that they both have every means to reapply the hand-disabling stun, and a means to aggressive grab them to keep them from trying to crawl away.

[oranges]

Nice to see a TG InterBay fork.

[Farquaar]

If you're afraid of being stunned by security, why not just cover up your crimes so sec doesn't come after you? I don't see why an assistant armed with garbage he found in maint shouldn't feel more threatened by a standard security officer than by a run-of-the-mill vigilante.

[Lumbermancer]

ITT: oranges actually has a good idea, and the sec mains rise from the taser fields to screech.

You gonna rise from admin fields to screech that sec switches from non-lethal to lethal. We were just over this, read the comic.

[Dax Dupont]

This is going to be hilariously bad

[Noka]

let's be real even if this goes well sec mains will ree about "STUNS UNRELIABLE, CRIT JUSTIFIED" no matter how actually reliable stuns are, because the easiest way to get things changed back is to be pants-on-head stupid about the entire fucking affair until maintainers give up and revert

that's how this server pop is

edit: more seriously, slipping working this way shouldn't drop items but should probably disable clicking on shit for about 1s or some reasonable number - so you can't slip and then fire off a perfectly accurate taser shot into the poor arsehole chasing you from the ground. it'd make the meta revolve more around slipping, then running up and disarming them, which would be very similar to what we have now but also much more fair lmao

[RobustAndRun]

Honestly y'all seem very scared of changing things up, let's let coders play around with it without putting up a fuss, experiment with the effects on gameplay in some live tests and if it *really* sucks it can all be reverted.

[PKPenguin321]

Honestly y'all seem very scared of changing things up, let's let coders play around with it without putting up a fuss, experiment with the effects on gameplay in some live tests and if it *really* sucks it can all be reverted.

since oranges is head maintainer it actually wont work this way at all, but rather will depend entirely on whether or not HE thinks it sucks

[ShadowDimentio]

If stuns aren't effective, crit will become the new stun.

This pretty much. Give sec a reason and they'll just laser any perps into crit before slapping on cuffs and a burnpack.

[py01]

Here's a thing i saw in the DM;CA code: Different clothes have different electrical resistances and affect the strength of taser shots. Perhaps certain clothes could give altered resistances to various types of stuns. For example, what if security jackboots cause slips to only put you into the crawling state, while crew members with only regular shoes will be fully stunned.

[Stickymayhem]

Honestly y'all seem very scared of changing things up, let's let coders play around with it without putting up a fuss, experiment with the effects on gameplay in some live tests and if it *really* sucks it can all be reverted.

We're relying on someone who doesn't play very much and definitely isn't particularly good at combat to decide whether the change they spent time working on is good for the game without any oversight from anyone else and a proven track record of pushing shit through regardless of popularity.

[oranges]

What's crazy is we've been letting him do it for 3 years now

[Cw3040]

What's crazy is we've been letting him do it for 3 years now

cat

Anywho, i think this would be good and make players GET good or die trying, just make sec ranged stuns do the same thing

[MrStonedOne]

Honestly y'all seem very scared of changing things up, let's let coders play around with it without putting up a fuss, experiment with the effects on gameplay in some live tests and if it *really* sucks it can all be reverted.

We're relying on someone who doesn't play very much and definitely isn't particularly good at combat to decide whether the change they spent time working on is good for the game without any oversight from anyone else and a proven track record of pushing shit through regardless of popularity.

>no oversight

The coders are accountable to the players and I'm the vassal through which they express that accountability

In other words if oranges fucks this up and refuses to back down I have options to rectify the situation so my advise is to stop worrying about if he'll fuck this up and focus on giving him the feedback and information that will help him not fuck up.

[Stickymayhem]

Honestly y'all seem very scared of changing things up, let's let coders play around with it without putting up a fuss, experiment with the effects on gameplay in some live tests and if it *really* sucks it can all be reverted.

We're relying on someone who doesn't play very much and definitely isn't particularly good at combat to decide whether the change they spent time working on is good for the game without any oversight from anyone else and a proven track record of pushing shit through regardless of popularity.

>no oversight

The coders are accountable to the players and I'm the vassal through which they express that accountability

In other words if oranges fucks this up and refuses to back down I have options to rectify the situation so my advise is to stop worrying about if he'll fuck this up and focus on giving him the feedback and information that will help him not fuck up.

Fair enough then that's good

I've given my input I'll be happy to give more when we see how the changes actually get implemented

[DemonFiren]

Honestly y'all seem very scared of changing things up, let's let coders play around with it without putting up a fuss, experiment with the effects on gameplay in some live tests and if it *really* sucks it can all be reverted.

We're relying on someone who doesn't play very much and definitely isn't particularly good at combat to decide whether the change they spent time working on is good for the game without any oversight from anyone else and a proven track record of pushing shit through regardless of popularity.

>no oversight

The coders are accountable to the players and I'm the vassal through which they express that accountability

In other words if oranges fucks this up and refuses to back down I have options to rectify the situation so my advise is to stop worrying about if he'll fuck this up and focus on giving him the feedback and information that will help him not fuck up.

>vassal
>mso is the vassal of coderbus
freudian typo of truth here tbh