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Playing as janitor isn't fun

PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2018 6:36 am
by angelstarri
A big number of jobs on the station has some sort sense of reward for doing their intended role. Scientists get technology and other benefits from R&D, researching toxins or xenobio. Virologists can make benefitial viruses, Clowns and Mimes can point and laugh at people after pranking them. Cargo workers get points for collecting crates and can buy all sorts of stuff. Miners get new technologies after collecting ores from the point machine, and so on.

Janitor isn't one of these.

Preceding from its reputation as a punishment role, Janitor is possibly the worst role to play as on the server right now. Hallways get covered with blood, oil, trash and corpses every five minutes faster than you can clean them and will constantly be refreshed even on spots you already cleaned from footprints people running over pools of blood and oil that are rampant through the station, people dripping and drooling blood when being dragged to Medbay, that damn MULEbot that keeps running people over, etcetera.

You can and will be attacked, disarmed, pushed, have your gear stolen and even be killed for slipping people unintentionally, even if you have a dozen wet floor signs around the wet floor. People want to hunt you for your galoshes or for meme reasons. Janitor borgs will point and laugh at you for having to go through so much work to do what they do flawlessly and without effort. At worst, you will be arrested for Derilection of Duty if you can't clean hallways fast enough, which has happened to me more times than I'd like to admit.

Your big weapons to help you with your cleaning are: Space Cleaner grenades that are limited in quantity and that most chemists will not go through the trouble of making more for you. Space Cleaner sprayers and the backpack tank that depend on cleaner that is on limited supply, runs out rather quickly for the amount of cleaning you have to go through and that is extremely dependant on the chemist filling them up for you after you use them (if there is one and if they're not busy making space drugs, space lube and meth). Your janicart that in most occassions is pushed around, stolen and/or destroyed with all your tools inside and without a replacement for it aside from a lousy mop bucket. The Pimpin' Ride, which is slower than you moving with galoshes, is a target for people to steal and that has no practical use until...

Advanced Sanitation Technology. It helps, but it is only a technology that gets researched 30 minutes into the round and is also dependant on your Pimpin' Ride not having been stolen, spaced or destroyed as well as miners having brought enough ores to build them.

To help remedy this problem I would increase the capacity of the space cleaner bottles as they were before instead of being a cuck-size of 100 units, make drying agent actually relevant and dry tiles instead of just being an add-on for galoshes, reduce the amount of footprints that a pool of blood/oil generate (oil specifically, they get refreshed when you step on their footprints), maybe make a precedent to or move Advanced Sanitation to a lower techweb tier to encourage Scientists to research it earlier than 30 minutes into the shift, and so on.

Any suggestions, comments or hateful insults are super welcome.

Spoiler:
inb4 hur dur janitor not suposed to be fun!!

Re: Playing as janitor isn't fun

PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2018 6:51 am
by iksyp
janitor is fun though

Re: Playing as janitor isn't fun

PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2018 7:03 am
by Lumbermancer
Janitor is not fun because rounds don't last and yet station gets covered fully in blood and shit within 10 minutes. Also Janiborg renders you obsolete. It forces you to get Janicart scrub upgrade asap, but you are still worse, and it kinda removes the point of your job.

In the words of the fruit, the game evolved, there's no reason for Janitor to exist anymore.

Re: Playing as janitor isn't fun

PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2018 3:04 pm
by Nabski
If you want to keep the station clean, you get cleanbots or upgrades from science for your mop/cart.

The best form of janitor is taking advantage of the mess to constantly slip the hallways, and just point at signs.

Re: Playing as janitor isn't fun

PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2018 10:55 pm
by Cherrypone
The solution is obviously to remove janitor and messes.

Re: Playing as janitor isn't fun

PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2018 11:14 pm
by oranges
oil and blood definitely got a nerf recently, or a pr was opened. I'm sure of it

Re: Playing as janitor isn't fun

PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 12:55 am
by LifeReign
Janitor exists to mop the floors and point at the 10+ wet floor signs in the area when someone slips. Bonus points if you slip someone of note like the clown or a wiznerd.

Re: Playing as janitor isn't fun

PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 1:01 am
by Zarniwoop
Change Janitor to something like Maintenance Tech and give them all the janitor stuff along with gear to basically fill miscellaneous engineering tasks like renovations or rage cages. Give them decent night vision too, as a perk.

Re: Playing as janitor isn't fun

PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 10:50 am
by Grazyn
Not every job exists to be action-packed and fast-paced. Some people like to go janitor when they want a more relaxed play, which can occasionaly turn exciting when there are runes to clean, a blood demon to contain or a bloodborn virus spreading around.

Curator, Lawyer, Chaplain are similar examples.

Re: Playing as janitor isn't fun

PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 11:08 am
by Arianya
It's a fair critique that the ability of the average person to make messes has outstripped the mop's ability to clean them up.

It use to be I could happily keep the main hallways clean without too much panicking and would look to clean up specific departments if they were filthy and someone was around to let me in.

https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/40148 is probably the pull oranges is referring to, though this only affects blood (and theoretically makes the situation worse if someone bled profusely?)

Re: Playing as janitor isn't fun

PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 11:23 am
by DemonFiren
give the janitor a backpack-mounted mess-seeking cleaner foam missile launcher for boba fett: custodial ERT when

Re: Playing as janitor isn't fun

PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 11:29 am
by Lumbermancer
Grazyn wrote:Not every job exists to be action-packed and fast-paced.


It's the rounds that are action packed and fast paced which kinda undermines Janitor gameplay. Plus, only few engage in a casual roleplaying (small talk) anymore. Have you played Bartender recently? At least Janitor has some mechanics to work with.

Re: Playing as janitor isn't fun

PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 11:52 am
by Mickyan
Nerfing footprints made things a bit less hopeless but it doesn't fix the fact playing janitor is boring and uninteresting, hard work doesn't pay off and anyone can easily ruin your shift. As a result it's mostly picked for its griefing potential since everyone else who wants to play seriously isn't getting any entertainment out of it.

There's also essentially two ways to play it, each with its own problems:
1. Use the mop and be a nuisance to the crew. It's slow, ineffective at keeping up with the amount of dirt generated during a moderately busy round and will likely get you in trouble. There's some entertainment to be had in that and it's kind of a staple of SS13, but it's not for everyone and it gets old quickly for everyone else.
2. Use space cleaner and be entirely reliant on chemistry to cooperate for refills. I don't have to point out why this doesn't always work out.

It could use a point system similar to mining that rewards you with better equipment and supplies by cleaning messes. The stun rework and consequent slipping nerf might allow for buffing the mop since wet floors aren't going to be as much of an issue

Re: Playing as janitor isn't fun

PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 6:27 pm
by Deitus
janitor is great robustness practice
>find a mess
>set up a perimeter of wet floor signs
>begin mopping
>point at signs silently whenever someone inevitably slips
>if someone attacks you or steals your stuff you have a free pass to beat the absolute shit out of them
if im ever feeling rusty i can just roll janitor and practice different combat techniques on some random greyshirt that tries to step to me.

Re: Playing as janitor isn't fun

PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 6:29 pm
by teepeepee
give the bear traps some use, the slowdown will make sure you get dat valid.

I wish sec would defend jannies that set wet signs though, you can't always win against the mob/you don't always want to do the escalation meme and sit out of a round.

Re: Playing as janitor isn't fun

PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 6:34 pm
by Deitus
if they ever do try to pull something i always give them a single warning of "stop" or "give it back" first. if you dont, have fun orbiting me and whining in ghost chat, not even "muh escalation" can help you then.

Re: Playing as janitor isn't fun

PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 6:47 pm
by Grazyn
I like to "accidentally" push the janitor cart aaall the way down the hall. They can never tell if I did it on purpose or if I was just too lazy to strafe

Re: Playing as janitor isn't fun

PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 6:50 pm
by Deitus
Grazyn wrote:I like to "accidentally" push the janitor cart aaall the way down the hall. They can never tell if I did it on purpose or if I was just too lazy to strafe

>not putting your janicart in a corner where it cant be pushed
you must be up against some scrub jannies tbqh

Re: Playing as janitor isn't fun

PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 7:38 pm
by DemonFiren
Grazyn wrote:I like to "accidentally" push the janitor cart aaall the way down the hall. They can never tell if I did it on purpose or if I was just too lazy to strafe

if I ever see you I'm gonna metagrudge you out the nearest airlock

edit: actually, maybe I'll just set a bear trap under it

Re: Playing as janitor isn't fun

PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 10:30 pm
by oranges
I really don't know what to say, others have expressed the point better than me, janitor is well, the janitor, It can't be the janitor and be fun if you want fast paced pvp action or something? Like, pick security or another job?

Re: Playing as janitor isn't fun

PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 10:38 pm
by John_Oxford
the satisfaction is when you still manage to clean the entire station against insurmountable odds (everything you just mentioned)

the fun is that satisfaction.

janitor is fun, its just not fun for plebs like you

Re: Playing as janitor isn't fun

PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 10:58 pm
by PKPenguin321
get the floor buffer upgrade for the janicart and hold onto a trash bag if you actually want to clean as janitor

Re: Playing as janitor isn't fun

PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2018 1:03 pm
by Qbmax32
John_Oxford wrote:the satisfaction is when you still manage to clean the entire station against insurmountable odds (everything you just mentioned)

the fun is that satisfaction.

janitor is fun, its just not fun for plebs like you

Re: Playing as janitor isn't fun

PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2018 1:12 pm
by Lumbermancer
John_Oxford wrote:the satisfaction is when you still manage to clean the entire station against insurmountable odds (everything you just mentioned)

the fun is that satisfaction.

janitor is fun, its just not fun for plebs like you


And you won't, ever. Unless it's lowpop and not bagil.

You want satisfaction? I suggested civilian objectives many times. "Keep x% of the station clean". Reward with cosmetic tat for next X rounds.

Re: Playing as janitor isn't fun

PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2018 1:35 pm
by Screemonster
janimech when

Re: Playing as janitor isn't fun

PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2018 2:44 pm
by WarbossLincoln
An overhaul of janitor and bartender might not be bad. I have no idea how though. The chef is the other role with no end game but there's still a lot of interaction and conflict when playing the chef. People always come get food, small talk, people getting you stuff to make weird food with, brining you bodies, breaking in and getting choked, etc.

If the fruit is right and there is no purpose in having a janitor anymore we should keep the janitor closet and make it all access. If someone wants to clean something they can.

Re: Playing as janitor isn't fun

PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2018 2:46 pm
by Lumbermancer
Create thirst meter.

Make shitty environment affect your mood negatively.

Re: Playing as janitor isn't fun

PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 12:46 am
by BeeSting12
Lumbermancer wrote:Create thirst meter.

Make shitty environment affect your mood negatively.

We tried the second one but it was really broken and unfun

Re: Playing as janitor isn't fun

PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 5:14 am
by Lumbermancer
Because it was always shitty and never clean and tidy?

Re: Playing as janitor isn't fun

PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 6:47 am
by iamgoofball
BeeSting12 wrote:
Lumbermancer wrote:Create thirst meter.

Make shitty environment affect your mood negatively.

We tried the second one but it was really broken and unfun

i dunno i mean it made dwarves actually start cleaning, and they'd use a dedicated butchery room

Re: Playing as janitor isn't fun

PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 8:37 am
by Ayy Lemoh
iamgoofball wrote:
BeeSting12 wrote:
Lumbermancer wrote:Create thirst meter.

Make shitty environment affect your mood negatively.

We tried the second one but it was really broken and unfun

i dunno i mean it made dwarves actually start cleaning, and they'd use a dedicated butchery room

Dwarves were different from moodlets.

With dwarves, you (hopefully) used a dedicated butchery area and whenever you had to clean, you would start wondering why you exist just to suffer. All in all, it was really annoying when it got to worst case scenario however, at the time, you could play a dwarf so that outweighs the negative of actually having to clean.

With moodlets, it was a fucking mixed bag of what people went through apparently. Some people, like me, rarely noticed much issue. Some people powergamed it to kingdom fuck by getting hugged in a shower while reading a book with a cigarette in your mouth. Other people just got completely fucked by this system apparently.

Either way, there's a difference between dwarves and moodlets. Unless they're fighting Bubblegum and are losing despite having a lot of dwarves, they can't possibly reach the mess level that the station could. If you wanted to avoid miasma in the fort then you could just start digging away. On the station, you better fucking hope someone didn't drag their bloody footprints 3x in every corner of the map or that you can just enter space without dying. It's even worse due to the fact that the GAME has to tell you what is dirty or not. For all you know, you could be a bartender in the most clean bar ever however some fuckass just gibbed himself in the hallway nearby and now you have a 100% super shitty mood.

also moodlets doesn't let you play as a dwarf so yeah that's already a big downside to the idea of making environment affect mood.

Re: Playing as janitor isn't fun

PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 10:53 am
by leibniz
janitor is fun

play one of the other 100 jobs instead

Re: Playing as janitor isn't fun

PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 11:39 am
by Lumbermancer
For me janitor was fun when you were a sole lizard and racism directed at you was fun and the game was fun too.

Re: Playing as janitor isn't fun

PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 1:52 am
by zxaber
Janitor has some good utility in being a great new player role. You spawn in your little cubby room that basically no one ever breaks into, and you have all the time in the world to learn your inventory (and hands) system. Once you're good to go, you have a basic task to work towards that also isn't mission critical.

Once you learn what you need and move past it, it might not be that fun, but the role doesn't have to be staffed every round anyway.

Re: Playing as janitor isn't fun

PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 10:46 pm
by Qustinnus
1. remove janiborg
2. upgrade janitools
3. make dirty rooms actually affect something (I tried that but theres no good way to do that in an optimized way)

Re: Playing as janitor isn't fun

PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 1:24 am
by Floiven
I enjoy playing janitor on occasion, but it'd be nice to be the end-all expert of cleaning and maint by the end of a long shift with upgrades etc, instead if a janiborg just being you but impossibly better in every way.
Upgrade janitor to the almighty position of CUSTODIAN!

Re: Playing as janitor isn't fun

PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 2:08 am
by Farquaar
Floiven wrote:I enjoy playing janitor on occasion, but it'd be nice to be the end-all expert of cleaning and maint by the end of a long shift with upgrades etc, instead if a janiborg just being you but impossibly better in every way.
Upgrade janitor to the almighty position of CUSTODIAN!

Janitors should receive tools and materials to replace windows, honestly. It's not like the engineers are going to repair all the hulk damage to medbay.

Re: Playing as janitor isn't fun

PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 11:23 am
by Mickyan
Funfact, you can use a flamethrower filled with water vapor to clean really fast but good luck with getting everything you need to make that work without getting your canister stolen an opened in the middle of a hallway cause that's the only actual practical use for it

Re: Playing as janitor isn't fun

PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 11:25 am
by iamgoofball
I'm going to make Janitors benefit from the economy a bit more.

Re: Playing as janitor isn't fun

PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 12:15 pm
by Not-Dorsidarf
Make the names of al the janitors come up at the top of the post round reward with a trophy on either side if the station is above a certain cleanliness level

Re: Playing as janitor isn't fun

PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 1:02 pm
by Lumbermancer
iamgoofball wrote:I'm going to make Janitors benefit from the economy a bit more.


Other way around, make the economy benefit from Janitors.

Re: Playing as janitor isn't fun

PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 1:44 pm
by somerandomguy
Mickyan wrote:Funfact, you can use a flamethrower filled with water vapor to clean really fast but good luck with getting everything you need to make that work without getting your canister stolen an opened in the middle of a hallway cause that's the only actual practical use for it

You can also use the flamethrower to slip people, bonus points if it's supercooled

Re: Playing as janitor isn't fun

PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 4:27 pm
by Cobby
If medals had more integration you could add a medal for keeping the station above a certain percentage and give it to janitors, and give them a golden mop to parody overwatch or something.

Re: Playing as janitor isn't fun

PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 4:53 pm
by Nabski
I reskinned a golden janicart at one point at someones request. It looked like hot trash, just like all the other golden gang clothing did.

Re: Playing as janitor isn't fun

PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 7:52 pm
by delaron
I enjoy the ease of janitor when i just wanna play casual ss13.

Maybe add a recycling points program that tracks trash hitting the recycle room. Used to help with cargo econ or research econ?

Hell maybe go full crazy and give meme powers based on sanitation standards... Toxic Avengers, Freddie Kruger, Good Will Hunting all come to mind as janitor idols.

Re: Playing as janitor isn't fun

PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 8:02 pm
by WarbossLincoln
"Janitor Idols"

Supposed to be Roger Wilco from Space Quest. The janitor's jumpsuit is from that.

"golden mop"

We actually need this cause that was what Roger Wilco was given in Space Quest for saving everyone.