Kitchen needs rebalacing.

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Lumbermancer
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Kitchen needs rebalacing.

Post by Lumbermancer » #441041

So rework from scratch is hard, but just balancing numbers should be not. As a weekend chef, I identified few issues with the current system.

Efficiency > quality/rarity. The most food you can make per ingredient trumps everything. This is why slicebable food; bread, cake and pizza is the best (and spaghetti). That's even ignoring the fact that most of these can be custom made. And this means certain types of food are just pointless.

Like pies. To make a pie, you need pie dough. You make pie dough, by flattening cake batter. This gives you a plain pie, which is not sliceable. Apple pie, gives you, according to wiki, 4 nutriment and 2 vitamin. Either a lie, or wow it's nothing. Now, if we don't flatten that cake batter, and bake it, we will get a cake. With one more apple, we can make apple cake, which according to wiki contains 20 nutriment and 5 vitamin. So one more apple, and not flattening batter with rolling pin, gives you 5 times the nutriment! But that's if you want to gorge on it whole! You don't! You want to slice it. And here's the fun part, either wiki is incorrect or slicing bends time and space making each slice of cake have 5.2 nutriment. So not only one slice of cake has more value than whole apple pie, but slicing gives you 5 pieces. 5x5.2=26. 6 more nutriment for slicing. And no, I refuse to grind a whole cake to see how much nutriment does it really contain.
So pies are shit. Make them all sliceable to make them worth a damn.

Food requiring multiple ingredients, that no one will ever grow. Like soups. Tomato soup is probably most common, because it's most simple. But let's look at vegetable soup; Carrot, corn, eggplant, potato. When the fuck you gonna get those? I must beg botanist to make eggplants for egg parmigiana (again, efficient food because cheese is infinite). Or a stew; 3 x cutlet, tomato, potato, carrot, eggplant, mushroom. Really now. I don't think I've seen it ever.
The issue is again lack of efficiency. You use all these ingredients, you get a bowl of soup. One person will get it.
Solution, give cook a crock pot, to cook soup in. Make each soup contain multiple servings you can give out to people in bowls.

Upgrades. Upgrading the Food Processor wins the game, it allows you to end the world hunger. It increases your yield from processing. Thus, when you get this upgrade, you can switch to processed food and not worry about anything. Throw a single potato in, get 6 tator tots to feed 6 people. Or slice the potato, and get 10 servings of french fries. Put 3 corn in, get 10 tortillas. Make all the nachos with your infinite cheese.
Truly, either tone this down, or make other upgrades on par. The microwave specifically, since no one cares it will cook things faster. Gibber is ok, but I found you rarely even gib bodies, because monkeys give out so much meat already.

So those are my thoughts, I need other chefs to chime in.
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Floiven
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Re: Kitchen needs rebalacing.

Post by Floiven » #441065

Make them all sliceable to make them worth a damn.
Yes, that's why I usually make pumpkin pies, since they're slice able. Agree with this.

Soup pot sounds like a great idea, maybe a machine that can be constructed that behaves like the ice cream cart, I rarely make soups if ever because of the efficiency ration to effort needed. Maybe soup cups?

Another thing I'd love is a more convenient way to grind large quantities of flour, I tend to play with no botanists around and grow my own stuff by dragging a hydro tray into the kitchen, and having to grind 3-4 times per flour bag refill gets old real fast, even when growing 50 potency wheat. Maybe a bulk grinder machine, that encourages extracting things like cocoa and other stuff you grind to get at.

How about a menu/chalkboard that you can write on for the crew to check out and order from?
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Re: Kitchen needs rebalacing.

Post by Farquaar » #441079

As a passionate chef player, allow me to give my thoughts.

You're absolutely right about nutriment balancing. Some foods take a good deal of ingredients and effort to make but give less nutriment than a fried appendix burger. As you summed up well, pies really need some attention in order to make them viable food items like cakes and pizzas.

Your idea for soup having multiple servings is interesting, and I'd support it. Many soups and salads require a number of hard to procure ingredients. A soup pot and a collapsible salad bar could prove to be compelling additions, though more discussion is needed on how it would actually work and be balanced.

You're spot on about the food processor. It's grossly inefficient at base level and overpowered when fully upgraded. While I'd rather it not be nerfed (it's essential for the Italian, Mexican and Asian chef playstyles) it would be nice to see the other machines get some attention.

As for Floiven's point on grinding ingredients, I think that the chef would do well with a special condiment grinder. Flour is not awful if you have adequate wheat supply, but ingredients like chili, cocoa and vanilla are a pain when you have to separate out the nutriment and vitamins to extract what you actually need for cooking. It would be nice to have a toggleable nutriment/vitamin filter on the chef's grinder. Maybe even give it a new sprite?
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As an aside, I should see if I can sketch up some bottle sprites for cocoa and vanilla.
One thing we want to encourage is advanced chef play. Any assistant can microwave some steaks and fry some organs. But a chef is the one who gets you bang for your buck. A chef who makes elaborate dishes should get more nutriment out of the same ingredients than the guy who just hopped the counter to throw Ian in the gibber so he could have something to eat with his stolen donut.
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Re: Kitchen needs rebalacing.

Post by Floiven » #441080

How about, salad bar/soup bar should be machines or containers that can replace the counters in the kitchen (just disassemble and replace with the serving platform you want). That way, you can empty soup into the larger container, and the crew can come up and grab however much they want, plate or bowl being included automatically, or needed separately.
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Re: Kitchen needs rebalacing.

Post by Pizzatiger » #441082

I feel like messing with the nutrients on food will not make cooking a more enjoyable or useful job. The main issue with the chef is that most of his food items are differentiated by its sprite/description and the quantity of nutriment.


Example-
Bartenders just have to click a few buttons to get stuff like Alexander, Neurotoxin, Beepsky smash, barefoot,Changeling Sting, Fetching Fizz, and more. All these drinks have unqiue effects that can't be gotten elsewhere

Chefs on the other hand have basically only have the cak.
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Re: Kitchen needs rebalacing.

Post by Farquaar » #441083

Pizzatiger wrote:I feel like messing with the nutrients on food will not make cooking a more enjoyable or useful job. The main issue with the chef is that most of his food items are differentiated by its sprite/description and the quantity of nutriment.


Example-
Bartenders just have to click a few buttons to get stuff like Alexander, Neurotoxin, Beepsky smash, barefoot,Changeling Sting, Fetching Fizz, and more. All these drinks have unqiue effects that can't be gotten elsewhere

Chefs on the other hand have basically only have the cak.
I don't follow. Chef actually has a lot of depth if you don't just see your job as making recipes in the crafting menu. The main idea of balancing nutriment values is that chefs will have more freedom to customize their culinary faire without worrying about one crewmember eating it the whole spread because a pie only provides 4 nutriment.
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Re: Kitchen needs rebalacing.

Post by Pizzatiger » #441085

Farquaar wrote:
Pizzatiger wrote:I feel like messing with the nutrients on food will not make cooking a more enjoyable or useful job. The main issue with the chef is that most of his food items are differentiated by its sprite/description and the quantity of nutriment.


Example-
Bartenders just have to click a few buttons to get stuff like Alexander, Neurotoxin, Beepsky smash, barefoot,Changeling Sting, Fetching Fizz, and more. All these drinks have unqiue effects that can't be gotten elsewhere

Chefs on the other hand have basically only have the cak.
I don't follow. Chef actually has a lot of depth if you don't just see your job as making recipes in the crafting menu. The main idea of balancing nutriment values is that chefs will have more freedom to customize their culinary faire without worrying about one crewmember eating it the whole spread because a pie only provides 4 nutriment.
I would argue that a chef has no reason to create unique food because all the food does the same thing. A slime cake and a lemon cake do the exact same thing when you eat them except for the unqiue sprite and decription. Food should have more unqiue effects that encourages chefs to experiment with different food for different situations, Shitty example- Copypasta should leave a cardboard stand that is an exact replica of you when you eat it.
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Re: Kitchen needs rebalacing.

Post by Lumbermancer » #441112

Pizzatiger wrote:All these drinks have unqiue effects that can't be gotten elsewhere.
Well that's because drinks do not serve any practical purpose, and bartender is purely an RP job.

Meanwhile you, Chef, need to feed people. Vending machines will get emptied eventually, and you are always needed. Especially now that moodlets are a thing (actually that's a plus for the bartender too). So it's not necessarily about comparing nutritional value, but rather some foods being so much harder to make for little value other than different sprite. And people generally do not care about fancy food, from my experience. That Cuban Carp will just sit there, with the neat flag sticking out, until it rots away. But, if you could easier do the "rare" food (rare as in appearing rarely, not having obscure ingredients), this wouldn't be the case, since there simply would be more of it.

I want to run a soup kitchen for destitute lava lizards.
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Re: Kitchen needs rebalacing.

Post by Dr_bee » #441121

it doesnt help that alot of food is technically poison for a joke.
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Re: Kitchen needs rebalacing.

Post by oranges » #441204

I'm glad you care about it, but you're probably gonna need to code this stuff yourself since most coders don't have much interest in the food system atm.
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Re: Kitchen needs rebalacing.

Post by Farquaar » #441233

oranges wrote:I'm glad you care about it, but you're probably gonna need to code this stuff yourself since most coders don't have much interest in the food system atm.
I knew there was a catch to this whole ideas forum business
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Re: Kitchen needs rebalacing.

Post by Gamarr » #441369

This is a real old argument as a chef player from goon but the response has always felt like 'Nutriment and food is pointless in tg code and nobody thus feels it is of importance to give some love and updates.'
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Re: Kitchen needs rebalacing.

Post by Mickyan » #441373

Too many holes in the entire system, rebalancing the nutrition of recipes feels futile when there's no real incentive to eat the chef's food over grabbing hot coco from a vending machine or having the bartender dispense more sugar than you'll ever need with the push of a button
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Re: Kitchen needs rebalacing.

Post by Lumbermancer » #441556

Well food loses its importance if the rounds are short, but that's why I pushed for hunger to be more relevant, and that's why I want stuff to be rebalanced; to be able to make a broader plethora of recipes. And I don't know how the code works behind the scenes, but more nutrition equals less hunger, no? So that is supposed to be an incentive over buying vendor trash. Snacks are meant to prevent you from succumbing to debilitating malnutrition, not really be your primary source of food. At least on paper.

Then there's vitamins, that are present in every meal but don't serve any purpose. At least in practice. Introduce some minor conditions that can appear spontaneously, similarly to appendicitis, but can be blocked by passing vitamin check. Common cold happens only when someone breaks a vial, or event happens now. But that kinda goes beyond rebalancing kitchen.
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Re: Kitchen needs rebalacing.

Post by Steelpoint » #441558

If you want to make food more relevant then investigate making certain actions, items or areas increase your metabolic rate. Perhaps wearing heavy duty armour or Hardsuits will make you hungrier faster, climbing over tables or running while in zero-gravity may also increase your metabolic rate. Perhaps being in close proximity to the supermatter crystal without wearing an adequate Hardsuit or Rad Protection also makes you hungrier.

These actions would help make the Chef, and good food, far more important.

The vitamins concept seems more like fluff work, perhaps you could make a 'negative trait' where you suffer a vitamin deficiency so you need to either eat good quality food, or take vitamin supplements from chemistry, to avoid minor negative effects.
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Re: Kitchen needs rebalacing.

Post by PKPenguin321 » #441690

just make food act like the bar where certain foods give unique effects. like a food that gives the same effect as the hearty punch for example.
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Re: Kitchen needs rebalacing.

Post by Dr_bee » #441701

PKPenguin321 wrote:just make food act like the bar where certain foods give unique effects. like a food that gives the same effect as the hearty punch for example.
A blanket buff to maximum hitpoints based on recipe rarity and complexity would be a good place to start. Potato chips and jerky can prevent hunger slowdown but a good well cooked warm meal will make you heartier.
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Re: Kitchen needs rebalacing.

Post by Farquaar » #441711

Turning food into potions wouldn't be a problem, but it's hardly necessary. As has already been said, the bar can serve drinks that have special effects because there's no other mechanical benefit to drinking alcohol (unless you consider being drunk on shift beneficial). While bar roleplay is awesome, it helps to have the added gameplay benefits that bring people less roleplay-inclined to the counter.

Food, on the other hand, has the benefit of reducing hunger slowdown and providing passive health regen via vitamins. The food in and of itself is enough to bring people to the chef for roleplay and other shenanigans.

I think in terms of special effects, it would be better to add effects to more bar drinks and focus on balancing food nutriment values to reward chefs who cook creative faire.
Dr_bee wrote:A blanket buff to maximum hitpoints based on recipe rarity and complexity would be a good place to start. Potato chips and jerky can prevent hunger slowdown but a good well cooked warm meal will make you heartier.
Not a bad idea. I think food promoting general health while bar drinks bestowing special effects is an interesting dynamic.
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Re: Kitchen needs rebalacing.

Post by Lumbermancer » #441746

Is it vitamins that provide healing in food, not nutrients? Then they should be moved to all the booze! It will make bar more often visited by crew. And it fits thematically too, getting a drink after hard day of work to relax or something. Drukiness effect would prevent powergaming, like carrying beer to heal in combat and stuff like that. Or, maybe make mixed drinks conjure a healing stuff similar to vitamins, and vitamins in food would protect from them meme conditions I suggested.
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Re: Kitchen needs rebalacing.

Post by Farquaar » #441769

Lumbermancer wrote:Is it vitamins that provide healing in food, not nutrients? Then they should be moved to all the booze! It will make bar more often visited by crew. And it fits thematically too, getting a drink after hard day of work to relax or something. Drukiness effect would prevent powergaming, like carrying beer to heal in combat and stuff like that. Or, maybe make mixed drinks conjure a healing stuff similar to vitamins, and vitamins in food would protect from them meme conditions I suggested.
Vitamins aren't really practical for healing in combat. There more for healing up the 7% damage spread across your whole body when you don't want to visit medbay or waste medicine.
Honestly, I like the idea of bar drinks giving special effects and food improving general health and performance. I'm not much of a coder, but I'm taking a look at github and BYOND code in my spare time to see if I can implement some of the ideas in this thread.
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Re: Kitchen needs rebalacing.

Post by delaron » #448256

Any thoughts about the IV plus Cryoxadone on a monkey making an obscene amount of synthmeat?

I enjoy the general busy work of chef cooking. For the most part I don't even register the nutritional value of the foods for min maxing. I tend to go with a theme and stick to it for the shift. I am a fan of the bounty system from cargo causing me to cook up specific items.

I still yearn for the day service jobs have a soft objective related to their trade.
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Re: Kitchen needs rebalacing.

Post by Qustinnus » #448637

oranges wrote:I'm glad you care about it, but you're probably gonna need to code this stuff yourself since most coders don't have much interest in the food system atm.
I'm actually quite interested in the food system. If someone bounces some ideas that aren't shit into my direction I'd be down to re-work hunger.
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Re: Kitchen needs rebalacing.

Post by Farquaar » #448668

delaron wrote:Any thoughts about the IV plus Cryoxadone on a monkey making an obscene amount of synthmeat?

I enjoy the general busy work of chef cooking. For the most part I don't even register the nutritional value of the foods for min maxing. I tend to go with a theme and stick to it for the shift. I am a fan of the bounty system from cargo causing me to cook up specific items.

I still yearn for the day service jobs have a soft objective related to their trade.
IV plus cryoxadone is a creative way for the medical department to cooperate with the chef, though I think it’s a tad too overpowered at the moment. One monkey gives you enough meat to end world hunger.

And yeah, I think most chefs don’t min-max either. The job is more of a creative pursuit. Balancing nutritional values isn’t a neccessity, but it would be nice to know that an entire buffet table of complex dishes won’t be eaten by one crewmember before anyone else gets to try it.
Qustinnus wrote:
oranges wrote:I'm glad you care about it, but you're probably gonna need to code this stuff yourself since most coders don't have much interest in the food system atm.
I'm actually quite interested in the food system. If someone bounces some ideas that aren't shit into my direction I'd be down to re-work hunger.
I started work on determining balanced values for nutriment and vitamins based on ingredient rarity and number of cooking steps. After midterm season clears i’ll definitely finish it and share it with you
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Re: Kitchen needs rebalacing.

Post by Mickyan » #448673

Monster Hunter has a system where food gives you relatively minor but long term and exclusive perks/buffs depending on the type of food you eat (ie. meat gives bonus attack, fish bonus defence etc., in our case these would probably be categories such as burgers, pastries, pizza and so on) and I think it'd be an interesting way to make the chef (and possibly bartender) more meaningful. You could have up to two long term buffs at a time, one from food and one for drinks, determined by the last type of food you've eaten (so you can't stack them).
The problem with the way food/drink buffs are handled currently is that they're tied to reagents, so they're very short lived and usually end up being just a worse option to proper chemicals. You can still keep the short term effects.

A lower hanging fruit would be decoupling nutrition and fatness, with things like sugar majorly contributing to the latter; right now you can just as easily get fat by eating fruits and salad instead of junk food. If eating exclusively junk food gave a real danger of getting fat people would be more likely to go to the chef instead
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Re: Kitchen needs rebalacing.

Post by Lumbermancer » #448678

Qustinnus wrote:
oranges wrote:I'm glad you care about it, but you're probably gonna need to code this stuff yourself since most coders don't have much interest in the food system atm.
I'm actually quite interested in the food system. If someone bounces some ideas that aren't shit into my direction I'd be down to re-work hunger.
It depends on how far do we want to go, because I would ditch the crafting menu system outright.
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Re: Kitchen needs rebalacing.

Post by confused rock » #448738

Farquaar xenobio can end world hunger by giving chef 10 monkey cubes tho, or silvers.
No need to end world hunger though, eating the chef's food is usually a bad idea. It's so easy to get fat now, unless I got a bottle of fernet bronca on me I need to save my stomach space for donuts and dock pockets, the king of all food. worst case scenario eating random organs off the floor is a very viable option for food, better than junk food. I am never worried about a lack of chefs.
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Re: Kitchen needs rebalacing.

Post by Floiven » #448862

Calories/Nutrition, in separate percentages depending on the quality of the food. Calories fill you up but don't make you feel better (reflected in moodlet or some global work speed buff called productive or something) while the chef's food, full of nutrients makes you more productive. Maybe calories leave you full for less time rather than eating a balanced meal.

Isn't there something about people's food preferences as well? Perhaps a reference should be added to the cookbook or a notice on a board somewhere that gives chefs a quick look at the crew's meal preferences, as well as specific tastes for the different races aboard the station, so you can make a decent meal for your lizard/slimepeople/whatever else customers.

When you're feeling productive and well-fed (and not subsisting off of junk food), plus if you've eaten stuff you have a preference for, increase your global work speed and resistance to mood dipping. Not sure how the mechanics on all this stuff works, so I hope it's possible.
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Re: Kitchen needs rebalacing.

Post by oranges » #449085

the issue is we can't make nutrition that meaningful, just look at the outcry of when we added moodlets and made them actually seriously meaningful.

Without the community stepping up to the plate and accepting things like this we can't really do anything.
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Re: Kitchen needs rebalacing.

Post by Floiven » #449149

Instead of borrowing from the current stats that players have, how about a small yet still worthwhile buff like 5-10% workspeed, maybe increased metabolic stats that heal certain kinds of damage at a slightly higher rate, like increased blood filtration for toxin, protein(?) for brute, etc. I'm talking bonuses that would be nice to have, but not necessary, so that the extra work put into making meals is appreciated, but not demanded. Moving a little of the healing power from Donk Pockets might be a good motivator, as they're currently the alpha and omega of healing food.

As far as interacting with moodlets, perhaps a method of adding a 'home cooked' bonus to food prepared by the chef, that gives a larger mood bonus? I don't know how much of this is possible, just throwing out ideas.
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Re: Kitchen needs rebalacing.

Post by Dr_bee » #449219

oranges wrote:the issue is we can't make nutrition that meaningful, just look at the outcry of when we added moodlets and made them actually seriously meaningful.

Without the community stepping up to the plate and accepting things like this we can't really do anything.
Since when has community outcry kept coders from doing stuff? If community outcry was an issue then the stun changes wouldnt have been made and metastation wouldnt exist.

Ignore the haters. Change is fun.
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Re: Kitchen needs rebalacing.

Post by Farquaar » #449245

oranges wrote:the issue is we can't make nutrition that meaningful, just look at the outcry of when we added moodlets and made them actually seriously meaningful.

Without the community stepping up to the plate and accepting things like this we can't really do anything.
I liked moodlets
Made you really feel like a starving blood-covered lunatic surrounded by corpses when you were a starving blood-covered lunatic surrounded by corpses
Not to mention it encouraged you to take a break from your job once in a while to just chill and eat snacks in dorms. Made for great RP.
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Re: Kitchen needs rebalacing.

Post by Lumbermancer » #449255

I was thinking of something similar Flovien. Nutrient, nutrient+ and nutrient++ (or whatever). Nutrient would just sate your hunger, nutrient+ would sate hunger and give a moodlet, nutrient++ would do both and also heal you a bit.

It would come with crafting revamp, where you make everything by mashing ingredients together. Custom food would only give you nutrient, recipe food would give you nutrient+. Then you would be able to use condiments (because nobody ever in the history used ketchup) on recipe food, to make it give nutrient++.
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Re: Kitchen needs rebalacing.

Post by Farquaar » #449260

Lumbermancer wrote: It would come with crafting revamp, where you make everything by mashing ingredients together. Custom food would only give you nutrient, recipe food would give you nutrient+. Then you would be able to use condiments (because nobody ever in the history used ketchup) on recipe food, to make it give nutrient++.
>he doesn't use ketchup on fried before serving them
>he doesn't use hot sauce on Donk-Pockets to make Spicy-Donks

In all seriousness though I approve.
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Re: Kitchen needs rebalacing.

Post by Davidchan » #449264

At this point having someone willing to code this or getting an actual design doc going with specifics would be better than spitballing ideas till we have something too complex to even approach.
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Re: Kitchen needs rebalacing.

Post by Lumbermancer » #449404

Well I'm the idea man, not code, man.
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Re: Kitchen needs rebalacing.

Post by Dr_bee » #449511

the easiest/laziest way to code it would be to simply add a new reagent to foods that gives a buff. basically similar to vitamins but actually useful in the long term.
Qustinnus
Joined: Tue Nov 07, 2017 12:30 am
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Re: Kitchen needs rebalacing.

Post by Qustinnus » #449515

I'd code this if it isn't something that either
1. makes crafting unreasonably complex because It'd be too much work

2. Splits nutrition into multiple vars, because thatd be too much work + too much balance memes.


I've learnt from trying to improve stuff like hunger though, people will witchunt you forever :^)
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Lumbermancer
Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2014 3:40 am
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Re: Kitchen needs rebalacing.

Post by Lumbermancer » #449523

My solution would make crafting less complex.

Make bread. Put 3 cutlets in it. It's a custom bread with cutlets. Add 3 cheese wedges, and it becomes [Meatbread].
You would only need to add customization to food types that don't support it yet, considering code is there already, you would need only sprites.

That's the basics, and you don't seem to want to go further.

I will always defend moodlets and hunger, so you have nothing to worry about.
aka Schlomo Gaskin aka Guru Meditation aka Copyright Alright aka Topkek McHonk aka Le Rouge
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confused rock
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Re: Kitchen needs rebalacing.

Post by confused rock » #449604

Lmao picking from a list is way easier than stuffing in 3 wedges and cutlets
In lifeweb people still question whether you can make spaghetti due to recipes like that
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Lumbermancer
Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2014 3:40 am
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Re: Kitchen needs rebalacing.

Post by Lumbermancer » #449612

Spaghetti is not made through crafting menu. Cook book / wiki doesn't go anywhere. Only thing that would change is that you wouldn't have to scroll through menus.
aka Schlomo Gaskin aka Guru Meditation aka Copyright Alright aka Topkek McHonk aka Le Rouge
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