/tg/Station 13

In light of the Chemist being a powerhouse role with access to the death-acid (Which has it's own thread) and a couple other choice chemicals, I'd like to start discussion about the fact that Space Lube is in fact undetectable on floor tiles.
Once it has been applied, unless you have seen somebody go head over heels into an incredibly long slip-time or you witnessed the application, there is actually no way to know it is there. Even a slight visual indicator, like a wet floor, would be a huge quality of life improvement for just about everything but traitor chemists.

I think this issue is only highlighted by an earlier round: A chemist filled the entire Security hallway with Space Lube, and unknowing Security officers walked into the invisible death-slide into a waiting bottle of poly-acid held by a particularly bloodthirsty man in a chicken suit, who is going to remain unnamed. There was no way for us to tell that the lube was there - Calls on the radio were nonviable simply because we died in the three clicks after the instant we slipped. It is not only polytricnic acid's power that was the issue here, but the fact that it's use was enabled by the silent, slippery killer.
I'm pretty sick of slipping without any warning and staying down for so long. Something needs to be changed, and it can be as simple as a visual indicator.

tldr; Please for the love of god make lubed floors appear as wet, or have their own slightly shiner, blue-tinted tile.

I thought lube's invisibility was part of the point of using it over water.

Saegrimr wrote:I thought lube's invisibility was part of the point of using it over water.

Or maybe the fact that it slips for so much longer, and can send you across a room. I think that something has to change, and I don't like gimping things with specialized uses - Just make it visible yet more potent than water by whatever margin.

Lube should either be invisible or better at slipping, not both. Thank you for making this thread.

It should be visible, I can't recall exact values but I do remember seeing several people remaining stunned on the floor for over a minutes until they were helped up.

MisterPerson wrote:Lube should either be invisible or better at slipping, not both. Thank you for making this thread.

Thank you for responding in a timely fashion. I know polytricnic may be first on the chopping block to stop the Chemist's overtuned power levels, but I wanted to slip this in while we're discussing chemicals; specifically the sort that come from space cleaner bottles to ruin people's days.

Steelpoint wrote:It should be visible, I can't recall exact values but I do remember seeing several people remaining stunned on the floor for over a minutes until they were helped up.

It slips for a very long time. I could argue it's too long, but it's only an issue (In my opinion) because it more often than not is applied en mass to an area, creating a slipocalypse that is immensely funny to the man with the spray bottle, and infinitely infuriating for the people who can't see it, move in to help others, and then join the fallen on the cold hard tiles of the station's floor.

Lube is:

Producable without anything not in chemistry (no rare minerals or advanced recipe knowledge needed to mass produce it)
Can spray over 3 tiles
Lasts about as long as water slipping does (before it goes away)
Stuns longer than almost anything in the game, including taser shots (why did HG not nerf this.)
Is invisible
Ignores noslips, galoshes
Cannot be cleaned or removed in any way
Can launch people 5-6 tiles around, into their death if you create a simple breach
Walking doesn't counter it

There will be the eventual people who try to defend lube as not unbalanced but at best it's a cheap as fuck tool for antags and an extremely obnoxious grief tool at worst.

Big ass text.

Didn't you already nerf lube stun to stun-prod levels though, or has that not gone through yet?

Edit: Yes, lube stuns as long as a stun baton, the longest stun in the game barring cult stun papers.

Stun prod time = 5
Stun baton/lube time = 7

I believe stun batons were kept so high to give sec a lot of breathing room for cuffing, which is understandable, but yeah idk as fun as it is to imagine someone comically trying to get up with lube underneath them for that long it's sort of starting to be the 'someone's either getting banned or lynched over this' every time it shows up in game.

I think the community should be able to decide between:

Visible, long stun (effectively 3 tile wide water slipping from spray bottles with a longer stun and the ability to launch people around)
Invisible, short stun (3 tile spray of invisible slip, regardless of how long the stun is, is super effective for antags who are the only ones really allowed to use it at this point anyway)

There's a lot of different things that can be nerfed though, like removing the galoshes slip, removing the inability to clean it off of tiles, etc. Holy fuck I even forgot one of the features it has.

The distance-slipping thing needs to stay, at the very least, even if it were visible its not like people dont constantly get mad at the janitor with his very visible wet floor signs and visible wet floors. I still think the invisibility is the one key factor lube has over just making a spray bottle with water.

Maybe if theres a way to increase the stun timer by 1 per tile slipped over? So tiny lube corners aren't a big deal but if you go sailing down a hallway then you might be out for a while.
I have no idea how feasible that is code-wise.

Has lube ever really been a problem?
Nerfing it would just produce clown tears, I don't think it's a big deal.

Bluespace wrote:Has lube ever really been a problem?
Nerfing it would just produce clown tears, I don't think it's a big deal.

Don't clowns get banned for using this as non-antag, last time i used it as clown i was literally gifted it by one admin who spawned it for me while another admin yelled at me for using it. I think the admins need a better policy on non-antag lubing to help us shape the retooling of lube.

If it's only an antag tool, IE virology bad virus symptoms or polytrinic acid and using them otherwise is terrible for a non-antag, then we can tool it to keep it powerful and competitive. If it's meant to be a joke, a funny clown thing, then it should be nerfed to fuck and back because it's literally only funny for the clown/mime using it.

Yeah pretty much whenever the "HEY THIS SHITASS IS LUBING" alarm goes off, and its not a clown/clown lubing literally fucking everything ever, someone ends up PMing them about it. Or I replace the spray bottle contents with blood and await very confused looks. (if I could find a way to make it spray gibs, I would.)

paprika wrote:it's literally only funny for the clown/mime using it.

This.

While I respect slippery death traps as an antag thing, in my personal experience, 9/10 space lube hellholes are created by a disgruntled chemist or a clown/mime equipped by the aforementioned chemist.

So we have three factors: Incredibly easy to make, undetectable, tied for longest stun in the game. One or more of these needs to be changed seeing as the ease of availability means it is used in the vast majority of cases as an implement of griefing. You have not known annoyance until you find out that the clown has graced every inch of the escape shuttle with lube by virtue of having a 200-unit spray bottle.

On a somewhat related note, do Magboots with the traction pulse system activated ignore slips? I can understand why they wouldn't for gameplay purposes, but from my understanding of how they work (Clumsily activated magnets?), I'd like to think that magnetizing yourself to the floor with each step down would somehow negate any sort of slippery stuff.

Only in ss13 can we have a forum thread about space lube though, holy crap.

paprika wrote:Only in ss13 can we have a forum thread about space lube though, holy crap.

I've sort of given up trying to explain the inner machinations of this game to my friends.

"No, you see, it slips TOO well! People need to change it."
"Wait, wait, back up. You're telling me the balance issue of the week is that the fucking space-KY is too good at making a near-frictionless surface?"
"Yeah."

Being obviously visible would be nice. Radium creates immense green floorslicks but does next to nothing once there, lube is invisible. All shine all the time I say.

MisterPerson wrote:Lube should either be invisible or better at slipping, not both. Thank you for making this thread.

It's already stupidly good at slipping though and as was mentioned, it's stupidly easy to mass produce. 30 water + 30 silicon + 30 oxygen will get you 100 units in a large beaker (not sure the exact amount it gives you since it gives you a bit of extra and I haven't tried it in a bluespace beaker. 120 maybe?).

It'd be nice to have some kind of visual indicator in case some shit bag chemist decides it'd be a funny prank to give the clown space lube grenades.

Violaceus wrote:Speaking of space lube, it should have other, legitimate uses than just slipping people.

Like mech construction.
Like machine construction.
Like ERP...

The wiki does say it's for maintenance of highly complex industrial equipment. Maybe make it so that mechs need it for periodic maintenance or they start locking up (i.e. getting frozen in place for several seconds or slowing down)

Jacough wrote:The wiki does say it's for maintenance of highly complex industrial equipment. Maybe make it so that mechs need it for periodic maintenance or they start locking up (i.e. getting frozen in place for several seconds or slowing down)

Rather than add something that makes mechs even worse to use, just have lubed up mechs move faster for a period of time and consume less energy while moving.
Seriously though, finding a use for things doesn't have to mean they HAVE to be used, just WANT to be used.

The inability to clean it off is kind of a shitty mechanic because it means the knowledge the lube is there means nothing.

The main problem as has been pointed out is that the chemist is a amazingly powerful role. I remember that we once were talking about making him less able to spam power chemicals by tying him more into supply and mining and putting griefy chemicals and powerful medicines behind plasma and botany but that never happened because 'fun.'

dezzmont wrote: The main problem as has been pointed out is that the chemist is a amazingly powerful role. I remember that we once were talking about making him less able to spam power chemicals by tying him more into supply and mining and putting griefy chemicals and powerful medicines behind plasma and botany but that never happened because 'fun.'

Horrifyingly powerful is a more accurate description. I think that polytricnic and space lube should both be gated, as the lack of control over production of said substances opens many a door for the griefer with the orange band on his labcoat.

My main problem with the chemist isn't power per se it is the "anything you can do I can do better" aspect.

Engineer? Any wall you can break I can break faster~ (rwall deconstruction should probably be made a little faster)
Service department? I can make piles of meat better than you~

Incomptinence wrote:My main problem with the chemist isn't power per se it is the "anything you can do I can do better" aspect.

Engineer? Any wall you can break I can break faster~ (rwall deconstruction should probably be made a little faster)
Service department? I can make piles of meat better than you~

The concept of science producing mega items in limited quantities isn't a problem. It creates a unique departmental role for science, who already have "collaboration to produce powerful effects with other departments" as their primary MO.

Medics start out with plentiful moderately powerful medicine, first aid kits have limited weak medicine, and the chemist must create strong medicine in limited amounts. It is up to him if he should share it or not but that is the same for any department.

The problem is almost none of the chemist's production is limited by other departments like it was coded to be. Botanists and mining hardly plays into what he does. And the mechanics of chemistry allow him to print buckets and buckets of stuff.

The funny thing is stuff like space lube, chloral hydrate, and polytrinic acid wouldn't really need a nerf if it was gated behind dangerous chemicals the chemist didn't have infinite access to. If he needed to bum plasma or glycerol from somewhere else it would allow these chemicals to be horrifying because they depend on departmental collaboration and naturally involve the efforts of multiple people. This encourages interaction which is always nice but also has the side benefit of causing others to get a warning that something may be up. If the QM is smart he would make sure to verify requests for potentially dangerous materials with the heads, especially in large quantities. This would encourage the chemist to slowly siphon out a personal stash of plasma and glycerol if he aimed to misbehave, forces him to ration supplies heavily and decide what powerful chemicals he needs, and create a nice tell mechanic that mimics how real world pharmacists get caught when people start to inevitably wonder what all that plasma is being used for.

This will never ever happen however because chemist players play chemist to produce these powerful chemicals non-stop and would be very vocal in displeasure despite how bad the one tile work room mechanic, where someone can create powerful end game effects without moving from a single tile or leaving a highly secure area, is for the game.

dezzmont wrote: This will never ever happen however because chemist players play chemist to produce these powerful chemicals non-stop and would be very vocal in displeasure despite how bad the one tile work room mechanic, where someone can create powerful end game effects without moving from a single tile or leaving a highly secure area, is for the game.

Who cares? Let's balance the game based on reason than who can whine the loudest. Players who whine don't make the game bad, bad game design does.

Make space lube require silver or something to make it harder to make. A visual indicator for space lube would be nice too.

Don't change anything about space lube, but make anything containing ammonia nullify it (ammonia, diethylamine, space cleaner, weed killer).

This way janitor actually gains a rare actually useful task and it doesn't just limit the the usefulness to them but allows people to raid botany for weed killer if space lube is a real problem.


Space lube has always been super powerful, but that's the point. Instead of nerfing it just make a way to counter it (right now there is no counter). It's not like this would be super unbalanced either, as when there's space lube people usually yell it over the radio and then people will actively avoid the space lubed area of the station.

Cecily wrote:I think this issue is only highlighted by an earlier round: A chemist filled the entire Security hallway with Space Lube, and unknowing Security officers walked into the invisible death-slide into a waiting bottle of poly-acid held by a particularly bloodthirsty man in a chicken suit, who is going to remain unnamed. There was no way for us to tell that the lube was there - Calls on the radio were nonviable simply because we died in the three clicks after the instant we slipped. It is not only polytricnic acid's power that was the issue here, but the fact that it's use was enabled by the silent, slippery killer.

No. Antags who go to this level of cooperation deserve to be rewarded. This falls into the same category as disposal traps into space/glass/the singlo to me.

(Polyacid probably needs to be slightly less powerful, but that is a separate issue.)

bandit wrote:No. Antags who go to this level of cooperation deserve to be rewarded. This falls into the same category as disposal traps into space/glass/the singlo to me.

(Polyacid probably needs to be slightly less powerful, but that is a separate issue.)

The issue is more to do with how powerful space lube is, how long it stuns you for, the fact its invisible and that its really easy to make. As noted, space lube has the single longest stun time of any item in the entire game, I would wager it may well easily exceed 30 seconds if not a minute.

Now you may argue that a disposal trap to the singlo/space is very similar to a space lube trap. I would argue that is false because firstly a disposal trap needs to be prebuilt in public areas for it to work, secondly it requires access to a very limited and hard to acquire item and thirdly the actual trap is a noticeable disposal entrance.

Yes, we should be encouraging creative antag actions, however actions that take so little effort to execute and are so deadly and impossible to avoid by even the most attentive of players really need to be rebalanced.

The counter to lube is the fact that it's invisible, you have to remember where you sprayed it to not get slipped yourself.

Make pure spacelube invisible with a short stun, but make it stack with water. Meaning that you can mix it with water to get the current stun (or a slightly shorter one) at the cost of invisibility.

IE: Long stun. Invisibility. Choose one.

Giving people the choice should alleviate most issues with nerfing it.

bandit wrote: This falls into the same category as disposal traps into space/glass/the singlo to me.

I disagree.

I have a pretty healthy amount of respect for the creative Atmospheric Technician/Engineer who takes the time and planning to build an elaborate pipe ride into the afterlife without being detected. The difference, however, between this and a lube trap is that while pipes take a good amount of preparation and modification to work as intended, a lube trap is as simple as clicking on floor tiles, bottle in hand, and waiting to mince whoever happens to step on the unmarked tiles of doom.

     .

So lube would basically just be a way to buff water tile stun in addition to the pure stuff getting nerfed? Mite be cool.

I think people are overhyping the power of invisible lube, in all my experience as a janitor people are extremely fucking stupid and fall on obviously wet tiles anyway.

Plus, walking doesn't affect lube, HOLY FUCK ANOTHER THING TO ADD TO THE LIST

I thought the visual indicator of space lube was watching the clown rocket into a wall?

galoshes and noslips should be immune to lube

Space lube has always been a terrible (if hilarious in certain contexts) mechanic, and I find it pretty funny that few people complained about it. Lube has always been overpowered. An invisible, incredibly long stun that can't be blocked by anything? It's just a bad game mechanic. Every nook ops round when I'm the CMO I just get a spraybottle of lube and am effectively immortal.

All it really needs is a graphical indication, though, and it'd be fine for the most part.

Ergovisavi wrote:Space lube has always been a terrible (if hilarious in certain contexts) mechanic, and I find it pretty funny that few people complained about it. Lube has always been overpowered. An invisible, incredibly long stun that can't be blocked by anything? It's just a bad game mechanic. Every nook ops round when I'm the CMO I just get a spraybottle of lube and am effectively immortal.

All it really needs is a graphical indication, though, and it'd be fine for the most part.

Lube can easily backfire though. It does require a certain set of skills to use effectively, as opposed to just annoying everybody, which is hilarious.

How would a visual reminder of Space Lube help when most of you don't even notice the wet signs?

because having a stun equivalent to a stunbaton that you can't see and is easily mass producible is silly.

Somejerk wrote:How would a visual reminder of Space Lube help when most of you don't even notice the wet signs?

It places the blame for dying squarely on the shoulders of the player instead of the game mechanics. It's a subtle but important difference. It removes the "that was bullshit" feeling.

Then a better fix would be to reduce or eliminate the slip distance and have the stun time in line with water slipping. A visual representation fixes nothing because, like I said, most people don't even bother to walk when wet signs are up and then attempt to kill you because you're doing your job as a Janitor. And while it is easily mass producible it generally requires you to be a Chemist or a Scientist.

Really the lack of a visual representation should be an advantage considering it requires more than just some table/hand crafting finagling.

Somejerk wrote:Then a better fix would be to reduce or eliminate the slip distance

Just plain no.

Saegrimr wrote:

Somejerk wrote:Then a better fix would be to reduce or eliminate the slip distance

Just plain no.

Is how I feel about space lube getting a visual. I don't even use the shit but the requirements for it to be made should put it a level above the usual stuff anyone can make on a whim. It's why IEDs are bad even compared to a 50/50 Potassium/Water Bomb but with a little thought and a fuel tank...

Water and banana peels don't slip you a few tiles ahead, why is space lube any different?

The distance that space lube throws you is completely irrelevant, if it moved you zero tiles, it'd still be overpowered.

The reason that space lube is overpowered is because it puts all the action on the person using it. There's no counterplay. There is no possible way the player who slips on it could have known about its presence unless someone else was affected by it beforehand, and informed them. All action is directed by the player who performs the feat.

For an example of why this is stupid, if you played Bioshock 2's horrid multiplayer, you might remember stupid combo. Lighting Bolt + Elephant Gun. The lightning bolt immobilizes you, and is effectively impossible to miss with. The elephant gun is a one shot kill on a headshot. Zap, shoot, dead. There's almost nothing that the player affected can do about it, but at least in the example, given, it's theoretically possible 360 noscope someone before they can shoot you, even if the chance is incredibly slim. With space lube, even that can't possibly happen, once it happened, you already lost, effectively guaranteed.

How would a visual reminder of Space Lube help when most of you don't even notice the wet signs?

Most people don't. I sure as fuck do, and it's very important that the overlay exists. Even with the overlay, water slipping is overpowered in my opinion, and I continue to abuse it regularly.

I think a simple ID lock on the Janitor's locker, or simply making galoshes spawn on the Janitor when he arrives on station, would make it more acceptable to make galoshes immune to space lube.

That or restricting galoshes from being ordered in via cargo.

What about noslip shoes?

They should be invulnerable as well, they cost a fair chunk of your already limited resources.

Let's not overlook the fact that you have to either gain control of chemistry, or somehow make your own machines, in order to get a good supply of space lube.

I dislike lube because it removes player control and skill from its usage, unlike water which you can see you cannot see space lube, thus meaning a lot of people can die due to them simply walking down a hallway.

I dunno, noslips are already must have. Should we make them even better?

Steelpoint wrote:I dislike lube because it removes player control and skill from its usage, unlike water which you can see you cannot see space lube, thus meaning a lot of people can die due to them simply walking down a hallway.

On the contrary, lube can backfire really badly, which means it requires skill to use effectively.