Standard borg zipties

[Denton]

What do you think about the zipties that Standard module borgs come equipped with? They're pretty nice for killing people, but I feel that the combination of flash+cuffs+welder just turns the module into validborg 9000.

[Lumbermancer]

Don't forget slipping with fire extinguisher to cuff those with eye protection.

[somerandomguy]

It's good that it has it, because standard is the only borg that can keep people subdued for any amount of time
Frankly, pk should get them too so that it can actually break up fights

[Cobby]

No borg should be able to subdue, they aren’t meant to be baby sec. If neither side is interested in discontinuing a fight consider it a choice and ignore them lol, otherwise you can put yourself between them and drag the victim away.

[gum disease]

I'm kinda meh about it because I only pick standard if I've been emagged and have been given the okay to murderbone because esword.

When I see some people play standard borgs, they tend to treat it as secborg lite and will either validhunt or assist security. I don't really see why it has cuffs, honestly. I kinda get that it's meant to be a jack-of-all-trades and master-of-none module, but we don't have any other borg module that can detain players in such a manner so the cuffs end up making it unique.

Personally, I wouldn't care if the cuffs were removed, nor would I care if they stayed.

[Yakumo_Chen]

I think it's fine as long as there's no reliable stun outside of the flash. Currently you can force people on you and toss them as a borg for a free stun, long enough to cuff, which is definitely probably not intended

They used to have a stun baton as well but it was removed not long after secborgs were because they became Secborg Lite. This will only be a continuance of a running treadmill of Standard borg nerfs if the cuffs are removed.

[somerandomguy]

I'm kinda meh about it because I only pick standard if I've been emagged and have been given the okay to murderbone because esword.

When I see some people play standard borgs, they tend to treat it as secborg lite and will either validhunt or assist security. I don't really see why it has cuffs, honestly. I kinda get that it's meant to be a jack-of-all-trades and master-of-none module, but we don't have any other borg module that can detain players in such a manner so the cuffs end up making it unique.

Personally, I wouldn't care if the cuffs were removed, nor would I care if they stayed.

>"we don't have another module with cuffs"
We do and it's red

[Anonmare]

And very dead

[delaron]

what about trading cuffs for the holo leg cuff trap ? something to slow but not harm and still allow soft detainment

[Dr_bee]

Borgs are supposed to be somewhat of a threat, if they werent then subverting the AI wouldnt be worth it.

for fucks sake, stop trying to nerf them, they are already about half as effective as a normal player with twice the RP restriction.

[Steelpoint]

What RP restriction? The most Borgs have to do is follow their laws in the loosest way possible until either they get antag status or someone fucks up their lawset.

Borgs act just as emotional, retarded, stupid and Human as your average crewmember.

[BeeSting12]

What RP restriction? The most Borgs have to do is follow their laws in the loosest way possible until either they get antag status or someone fucks up their lawset.

Borgs act just as emotional, retarded, stupid and Human as your average crewmember.

This. If anyone's ever seen the way borgs act here then they'd laugh at the very idea of borgs having RP restrictions

[Anonmare]

We've become too lax

[Shadowflame909]

We've become too lax

This. I've seen medical-borg/standard-borg players try to get me banned when I disable them for ignoring Asimov and for trying to valid me instead.

"Borg law two unbolt this door"

"Borg state laws"

>Borg instead flashes me as it tells the AI to call for sec/takes me to sec themselves and gets a sec officer to brig me.

I sort of understand that we're in a low RP - Medium RP general area. So it makes sense why some players think borgs are sec officers first and basically human servants second. But, It's really silly when you get salted at in OOC by a borg player for locking them down when they disobey their laws to basically power game!

Sec borgs got removed for a reason. They had the ability to valid-hunt, with fewer ways to stop them in there tracks. Whether that be viruses, E-Bows or Plasma Floods.

It's pretty showing that even if you remove the problematic module, The same types of borg-players will still remain...

[Anonmare]

I feel we're too lax on the RP-side in general tbh

[Shadowflame909]

I feel we're too lax on the RP-side in general tbh

Well. My only problem with this line of thinking is, If we get invested in too deep to the RP side of things like

>Slower movement to talk to people
>Longer Heal Times
>Less Robust players in general
>More Robust Sec
>More Antag Rules: Ie. No murderbone if you don't have hijack (Or something like that)

We'd just be paradise: Edition 1.5
Yet, paradise still has Slings and pretty cool vampire antags. The only thing they really wouldn't have over us at that point would be Lavaland!

Well, I'm getting off topic but, there's a sort of push in this community in general for more RP. I just don't know what people specifically mean by that, and how much RP tier things do they want to come with.

[confused rock]

Lavaland sux though
I tried and failed to get standard borg ties removed a long time ago, I liked secbors and hate peacekeepers and the in between is even WORSE.
I'm afraid you're not getting anywhere with your points shadow because everyone's favorite fallacy to shit on here is slip slope, this just reminds me how good slow movement would be

[Shadowflame909]

Lavaland sux though
I tried and failed to get standard borg ties removed a long time ago, I liked secbors and hate peacekeepers and the in between is even WORSE.
I'm afraid you're not getting anywhere with your points shadow because everyone's favorite fallacy to shit on here is slip slope, this just reminds me how good slow movement would be

You may be right that it's common to hate on blippery blope here.

But aren't the maintainers already considering nerfing movement speed so people can have a chance to "talk" to each other more? (If they aren't, It was at least joked about by a couple of them)

I've got some mechanically related issues with that. If such a decision were to come about quickly and without pre-emptive planning. But I already mentioned that in a previous thread. (Although it was on the NTR hut.)

[Shadowflame909]

>role that's supposed to follow its RP laws doesn't follow them
ahelp it.

>Role that's supposed to follow its RP laws doesn't follow them

>When you kill it for breaking its laws it Ahelps you instead

Got-Got me???!?

Edit: For more clarification, I may not be one of the most helpful players. But I'm not certainly one of the worst tiders. As a botanist, I may sometimes (Most of the time) find myself breaking into tech storage for a chem dispenser because Chemistry decided this shift to make meth and space lube, and I'd rather not deal with them. Now when a valid hunting borg comes after me spouting space law and ignoring my requests to "Law 2 go away" and "Law 2 unbolt me". When you find out they're Asimov after you've been put in the brig for 5-15 minutes for trespass. You'll dutifully want vengeance and to escalate against such folks.

Last edit: I can't be spouting up a thread with an entirely different argument here. Post below. But, I did and it instantly got closed. It still pains me to see that people would rather play sec-borg overall and get angry enough to ahelp you when they get dunked on for ignoring Asimov in favor of space law. Y'know? V

[Incomptinence]

Maybe you wouldn't need to be restrained if you didn't play like a killbot?

[Deitus]

are we seriously still complaining about borgs even when they've been nerfed into the ground after you faggots threw a massive hissyfit over "abloobloo borg stopped muh murderbone"? its not even funny anymore how badly you need to fucking get good, jesus christ
>inb4 "b-b-but beitus da burgs dun listen to muh assmov cummands!!1!"
i've said it before and i'll say it again: THIS IS A PLAYER PROBLEM, NOT A CODE PROBLEM. secborgs were fine in people that actually followed the rules laid out for them in HUGE BOLDED FONT every time they loaded the module, but instead of the admins doing their job and handling/banning the people who abused/broke these rules the decision was favored towards "LOL lets just remove them completely Xd"
i will never not be mad about secborg removal and how retarded it was that it even got past the consideration phase, and now you want basicass zipcuffs to be removed too? flashes can be obtained with literally zero access required (and no i dont mean "hacking into areas" as "no access required" before you little shits say it), and eye protection is just as easy to find. people just dont want to do this because "UGH why cant i just remove all the things that could possibly stop me from doing what I WANT when I WANT IT?????"
seriously, you retards need to fuck off.

[Shadowflame909]

are we seriously still complaining about borgs even when they've been nerfed into the ground after you faggots threw a massive hissyfit over "abloobloo borg stopped muh murderbone"? its not even funny anymore how badly you need to fucking get good, jesus christ
>inb4 "b-b-but beitus da burgs dun listen to muh assmov cummands!!1!"
i've said it before and i'll say it again: THIS IS A PLAYER PROBLEM, NOT A CODE PROBLEM. secborgs were fine in people that actually followed the rules laid out for them in HUGE BOLDED FONT every time they loaded the module, but instead of the admins doing their job and handling/banning the people who abused/broke these rules the decision was favored towards "LOL lets just remove them completely Xd"
i will never not be mad about secborg removal and how retarded it was that it even got past the consideration phase, and now you want basicass zipcuffs to be removed too? flashes can be obtained with literally zero access required (and no i dont mean "hacking into areas" as "no access required" before you little shits say it), and eye protection is just as easy to find. people just dont want to do this because "UGH why cant i just remove all the things that could possibly stop me from doing what I WANT when I WANT IT?????"
seriously, you retards need to fuck off.

my boi beitus

The latest posts arent complaining about mechanics. It's about the RP and the desires of certain borg players. Infact some people are even talking about making RP more strict apon Borgs in general

[PKPenguin321]

This thread was supposed to be specifically about the cuffs that the standard module gets, just a reminder

[Shadowflame909]

This thread was supposed to be specifically about the cuffs that the standard module gets, just a reminder

Cuffs are Fine.
Hell, at a point, Sec Borgs can be fine. Maybe as Code Red ERT only though.

The problem here is how players utilize and abuse these tools, for unintended purposes.

Maybe the cuffs should be swapped out for something easier to break like cable restraints or something. If we want them to be less used for making arrests and more used for stopping violence. (Although Peace-Keeper are the epitome of this.)

I think It's ultimately the exact same scenario as "Free Drones" and how they became admin only because there were too few doing wrong to police. Yet, it slowly happened enough and built up. That people got pissed off.

What can you do?

[oranges]

Borgs are supposed to be somewhat of a threat, if they werent then subverting the AI wouldnt be worth it.

no, antag/hacked borgs are, but that has no bearing on the non hacked loadout of the standard borg.

@Marisa, well if people keep playing it like a secborg then yeah we're not gonna sit on our hands and pretend it isn't an issue, secborgs weren't removed for no reason.

[Dr_bee]

Borgs are supposed to be somewhat of a threat, if they werent then subverting the AI wouldnt be worth it.

no, antag/hacked borgs are, but that has no bearing on the non hacked loadout of the standard borg.

@Marisa, well if people keep playing it like a secborg then yeah we're not gonna sit on our hands and pretend it isn't an issue, secborgs weren't removed for no reason.

Why even give borgs law 1 if you neuter any way for them to follow it.

[DemonFiren]

Borgs are supposed to be somewhat of a threat, if they werent then subverting the AI wouldnt be worth it.

no, antag/hacked borgs are, but that has no bearing on the non hacked loadout of the standard borg.

@Marisa, well if people keep playing it like a secborg then yeah we're not gonna sit on our hands and pretend it isn't an issue, secborgs weren't removed for no reason.

Why even give borgs law 1 if you neuter any way for them to follow it.

That's one big fuckoff strawman and you know it.
First, there's the "never harm" half of the law you've managed to forget about completely, then there's the fact that things other than humans can cause human harm, and those things borgs can deal with without stuns or restraints.

[Dr_bee]

Borgs are supposed to be somewhat of a threat, if they werent then subverting the AI wouldnt be worth it.

no, antag/hacked borgs are, but that has no bearing on the non hacked loadout of the standard borg.

@Marisa, well if people keep playing it like a secborg then yeah we're not gonna sit on our hands and pretend it isn't an issue, secborgs weren't removed for no reason.

Why even give borgs law 1 if you neuter any way for them to follow it.

That's one big fuckoff strawman and you know it.
First, there's the "never harm" half of the law you've managed to forget about completely, then there's the fact that things other than humans can cause human harm, and those things borgs can deal with without stuns or restraints.

So they are supposed to stop harm except for the most common form of harm, punching. And dont say dragging away, because with how speed works currently that doesnt work at all.

[Anonmare]

I mean, sure, why not give people even less reason to pick any module except engineering when that's the only one worth a damn unemagged

[zxaber]

then there's the fact that things other than humans can cause human harm, and those things borgs can deal with without stuns or restraints.

It's not like borgs can just sit by idle and wait for human harm to come from a specific source before acting. They're supposed to try to stop all human harm.

Though, truth be told, it's rare that a borg has the opportunity to cuff someone, but not to re-apply the stun allowing the cuffing in the first place. If you flash someone to cuff them, you can just flash them again. It'll eventually burn out, sure, but you have more than enough time to drag the person into a lockable room or the brig or something.

Honestly, the only time borg cuffs seem particularly useful is when you have a standard borg cuff the waiting line for a borging machine. So if they did get removed, it'd be nice to see them available for hacked/emagged standard borgs. Other than that, I rarely play standard myself, so I have no idea how often they get used or for what reason.

[PKPenguin321]

We can't have an on-topic thread about borgs and their gear for 5 posts without somebody saying to readd secborgs and then somebody replying to leave them out until the whole thing spirals out of control. cmon you guys

To set an example and stay on topic: I think standard borg cuffs are fine. They are probably the most robust tool borgs have against humans, but you don't really see it all that often anyways, and the standard borg module doesn't really have enough else going for it to warrant removal.

[RogueSteampunker]

Okay, let's just get this one straight: borgs are meant to stop harm. People complain if they don't. We suddenly try to remove another feature of borgs that let them do this.

???

Like, I'm having a hard time finding the train of thought that lead us to this conclusion, particularly since standard borgs are rarely ever used in the first place. They have a pair of cuffs, that they can figuratively use if a specific situation shows up where someone sits still long enough for them to use them, usually in cases of a fight occurring and needing to restrain someone before administrating healing at the medbay. If anything about this is suddenly exploited for easy Borg grief, you can just ahelp and report such fuckos.

Why it is we instead suggest trying to take another module down the path of the peacekeeper, and continue to wonder why it is engineer borgs are the only truly viable module baffles me.

[oranges]

When you say things like you know what borgs are supposed to do, but only started playing in 2017, it makes me feel sad.

Borgs are not meant to stop harm, they just happen to be obligated to do so under their laws.

[Anonmare]

I don't see the point of removing the zip cuffs. Hell, the PK borg should have them but all the assistant mains will reee at the idea

[Yakumo_Chen]

Aside from the buckle-tossing trick (which I think is exploity), standard borgs don't even have a way to stun on their own to cuff, even with hacking.

[Malkraz]

Only Peacekeeper is "meant to stop harm" (in the most direct sense), hence the name "peace keeper" and not "engineering".
Regardless of what they're "meant" to do, there's always going to be a disconnect between "this is what you're supposed to do" and "this is what players do" with any given tool. It has to be taken into consideration how players are going to use the tools provided to them, and as has already been stated in the thread this tool easily leads to shitty secborg-lite gameplay. Honestly why is standard even an option?

[Dr_bee]

When you say things like you know what borgs are supposed to do, but only started playing in 2017, it makes me feel sad.

Borgs are not meant to stop harm, they just happen to be obligated to do so under their laws.

Borgs have always had that aspect of their laws, it wasnt magically added sometime before that person started playing.

If borgs arent designed to stop harm why the fuck is there an inaction clause in the first place? If it is a relic from the pre HG days when borgs were actually a threat that isnt applicable anymore why has the clause stuck around?

[Lumbermancer]

Borgs are not meant to stop harm, they just happen to be obligated to do so under their laws.

So you're saying they are meant to stop harm?

[oranges]

no they're not meant to, they're obligated to do so.

For Rp reasons, it doesn't mean they have to actually be good at it mechanically, which is what I said, but for the benefit of slow people I'm happy to repeat myself.

[Steelpoint]

Cyborgs stopping harm is a side effect of their Nanotrasen approved Lawset, but that is not their primary function.

You could argue that the only Cyborg who is intended to prevent harm is the Security Borg, and the Peacekeeper Borg to an extent, allthough the Peacekeeper seems built more to encourage harmony and cooperations amongst the crew than actually stopping harm.

Every other borg has a primary function that has nothing to do with preventing harm.

[Lumbermancer]

Cyborgs stopping harm is a side effect of their Nanotrasen approved Lawset, but that is not their primary function.

Why do you think we need the silicon policy and all the unwritten rules? Because the lawset was purposefully flawed to allow Asimov to write stories. Primary function is not a factor within the lawset.

[Steelpoint]

Which is why I always find it amusing we use the Asimov three laws when the laws were intentionally designed to be flawed. You'd think we'd be better off writing a unique lawset, but we've been through that song and dance a hundred times.

[Lumbermancer]

Universal lawset will always be problematic. If you really don't want borgs to prevent muh harm, and to follow their function, it has to be unique for each type.

[confused rock]

When you say things like you know what borgs are supposed to do, but only started playing in 2017, it makes me feel sad.

Borgs are not meant to stop harm, they just happen to be obligated to do so under their laws.

Borgs have always had that aspect of their laws, it wasnt magically added sometime before that person started playing.

If borgs arent designed to stop harm why the fuck is there an inaction clause in the first place? If it is a relic from the pre HG days when borgs were actually a threat that isnt applicable anymore why has the clause stuck around?

I hate to break it to you but asimov didn't write his laws to be optimal and he DEFINITELY didn't write them for space station 13

[Yakumo_Chen]

Standard Borg is meant to be the Jack of all trades, it has zip ties as a hold over from secborg (like its removed stun baton). Standard has plenty of functions that make it usable and there's no real reason to remove it outside of ided

Outside of tatoring the cuffs don't see much use and if you get zip cuffed by Borgs because you stood there and ignored the loud sound that lays and the large red text or because you got stunned by someone else and the Borg cuffed you while you got stunned it sounds like you just need to get good

[somerandomguy]

Aside from the buckle-tossing trick (which I think is exploity), standard borgs don't even have a way to stun on their own to cuff, even with hacking.

what are flashes

[Shadowflame909]

Aside from the buckle-tossing trick (which I think is exploity), standard borgs don't even have a way to stun on their own to cuff, even with hacking.

what are flashes

Don't forget Service Borgs are literally infinite stun murder-borgs. I abused their stun so much that I got a note for it.

>Spray-cans can stun.
>Service Borgs get a spray can
>They can spray flammable liquids onto people so they catch on fire along with the stun.
>Spray Cans are quite flammable.
>Literally Plasma Fire/Any sort of fire method like an electric grille + Spray can and you have a murder-borg.

Or you can just feed someone a shitload of alcohol whilst your stunning them. They're quite literally an underused sec borg alternative. I don't know why I'm mentioning this though because I hate sec-borgs and this will probably get them nerfed.

You can just use a mask to negate this though. Whilst sunglasses to negate there flash.

[Yakumo_Chen]

Any Borg that can get the flash stun has other methods of locking you down anyway or can flat valid you, so the cuffs aren't really the underlying problem.

[Shadowflame909]

Any Borg that can get the flash stun has other methods of locking you down anyway or can flat valid you, so the cuffs aren't really the underlying problem.

This is true, any borg has a sort of unconventional way of stunning that goes along with their flash. Not all of them are decent though.

If there was any change that came from this argument. I hope it'd be giving peacekeeper borgs can make an infinite amount of fake handcuffs via battery power for an interesting mechanical change. The ones that take 1 second for you to break out of, so anytime your persecutor stops dragging you. Either via a door or something like that. You can instantly break out of them. Yet, you can't break out of them whilst moving.

[somerandomguy]

Any Borg that can get the flash stun has other methods of locking you down anyway or can flat valid you, so the cuffs aren't really the underlying problem.

This is true, any borg has a sort of unconventional way of stunning that goes along with their flash. Not all of them are decent though.

If there was any change that came from this argument. I hope it'd be giving peacekeeper borgs can make an infinite amount of fake handcuffs via battery power for an interesting mechanical change. The ones that take 1 second for you to break out of, so anytime your persecutor stops dragging you. Either via a door or something like that. You can instantly break out of them. Yet, you can't break out of them whilst moving.

Trick handcuffs