remove golems (not literally remove i just wanted an eye catchy subject)

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remove golems (not literally remove i just wanted an eye catchy subject)

Postby imsxz » Thu Dec 20, 2018 11:46 pm #463684

round ID 98950, there were at least 11 BOH holes on the station by the end of it, i know for sure at LEAST half of them were golems, likely all of em but one.

the conflict leading up to it is really really questionable, but should nonantag ghost roles really be able to have this scale of a negative impact on the round?
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Re: remove golems (not literally remove i just wanted an eye catchy subject)

Postby Hathkar » Thu Dec 20, 2018 11:50 pm #463686

Just add a line similar to the Lavaland syndies: Don't leave lavaland without a super super good reason.

Remove golems tho
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Re: remove golems (not literally remove i just wanted an eye catchy subject)

Postby Shadowflame909 » Thu Dec 20, 2018 11:50 pm #463687

Been there. Done that.

A previous head-admin term had seen the same thing. It ruled that golems were not antagonists, and should be usually peaceful ghost roles that have less scrutiny on escalation compared to crewmembers.

Basically, you're valid. You're dispensable. Don't impact the round.

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Re: remove golems (not literally remove i just wanted an eye catchy subject)

Postby coiax » Thu Dec 20, 2018 11:52 pm #463690

Just disable respawning as a ghost role. Once you've been a golem and you've died, they either revive your old golem body, or you can't be a golem anymore that round.

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Re: remove golems (not literally remove i just wanted an eye catchy subject)

Postby wesoda25 » Thu Dec 20, 2018 11:53 pm #463691

Wow its almost as if this is a reoccurring problem and the argument to "just ban them" doesn't work??!!

Remove golems.
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Re: remove golems (not literally remove i just wanted an eye catchy subject)

Postby skoglol » Thu Dec 20, 2018 11:54 pm #463693

Not being able to leave lavaland as golem would be kinda sad though. Golems can be nice, rarely do you see a round like this with all out suicide bombing.

Heck, even just clarifying/enforcing if you are allowed to continually respawn into ghost roles would probably solve the problem.

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Re: remove golems (not literally remove i just wanted an eye catchy subject)

Postby imsxz » Fri Dec 21, 2018 1:07 am #463711

when they leave lavaland they either grief, or provide the crew with OP gear that they were able to get entirely uncontested, its not uncommon to have golems with multiple combat mechas validhunting on the station.
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Re: remove golems (not literally remove i just wanted an eye catchy subject)

Postby Nilons » Fri Dec 21, 2018 1:15 am #463712

tbh if you removed their access to BoH's theyd get curb stomped by the station if they ever tried anything
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Re: remove golems (not literally remove i just wanted an eye catchy subject)

Postby Atlanta-Ned » Fri Dec 21, 2018 2:05 am #463723

Make death meaningful again.

Remove ghost roles.
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Re: remove golems (not literally remove i just wanted an eye catchy subject)

Postby D&B » Fri Dec 21, 2018 3:06 am #463736

Why keep around a RND tutorial ghost role when RND doesn't need a tutorial anymore?
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Re: remove golems (not literally remove i just wanted an eye catchy subject)

Postby subject217 » Fri Dec 21, 2018 5:34 am #463780

the real joke here is the idea of golem """""""""""escalation"""""""""""" and a shitty ghost role with no consequences that can make infinite lives getting to "declare war" and shit all over the station for perceived injustice

oh and they have rnd too lol with an old protolathe so they get piles of overpowered shit
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Re: remove golems (not literally remove i just wanted an eye catchy subject)

Postby BeeSting12 » Fri Dec 21, 2018 5:42 am #463782

If this is the round I'm thinking of, the captain declared war on the golems over the clown BoH bombing the brig and someone else bombing his office. Insert surprised pikachu face here when the station gets BoH bombed 11 more times.

AFAIK, the golems didn't declare war on the station, it was vice versa subject. This round would be a huge edge case and the golems weren't banned because it was a funny/interesting situation that this game can lead to. Making a polocy or removing them over this would be pretty dumb and a waste of energy imo.

Anyway I guarantee 80% of the posts in this thread will be coding feedback on the golems. May as well move it to coding feedback.
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Re: remove golems (not literally remove i just wanted an eye catchy subject)

Postby Arianya » Fri Dec 21, 2018 8:33 am #463809

I've said it before

Take away their access to build teleporters.

Now they have to go through the mining station if they want to attack the station, instead of deep striking into the bridge, and the crew can blow up the shuttle/destroy the consoles if they'd rather cut themselves off from lavaland rather then deal with the golems.
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Re: remove golems (not literally remove i just wanted an eye catchy subject)

Postby Rustledjimm » Fri Dec 21, 2018 1:23 pm #463843

Nilons wrote:tbh if you removed their access to BoH's theyd get curb stomped by the station if they ever tried anything


This.

But to be honest being ghost roles they should be easily curb stomped by the station. When a ghost role group can be stronger than the station you've got problems.
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Re: remove golems (not literally remove i just wanted an eye catchy subject)

Postby wesoda25 » Fri Dec 21, 2018 3:29 pm #463866

Rustledjimm wrote:
Nilons wrote:tbh if you removed their access to BoH's theyd get curb stomped by the station if they ever tried anything


This.

But to be honest being ghost roles they should be easily curb stomped by the station. When a ghost role group can be stronger than the station you've got problems.

They should also be limited to mining mechs only.
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Re: remove golems (not literally remove i just wanted an eye catchy subject)

Postby Dr_bee » Fri Dec 21, 2018 4:01 pm #463869

Rustledjimm wrote:
Nilons wrote:tbh if you removed their access to BoH's theyd get curb stomped by the station if they ever tried anything


This.

But to be honest being ghost roles they should be easily curb stomped by the station. When a ghost role group can be stronger than the station you've got problems.


Golems are a benevolent ghost role, you have to go out of your way to piss them off enough to get them to attack. Also some of the most fun Ive had as a golem is when the station legitimately fucked the golems. Example, a miner stole the golem disk without uploading it and then destroyed the golem ORM, I went up to the station as a golem and demanded the disk back. The threat of golem attacks alone got the station to give us the disk back. It was fun conflict.

How hard is it to not piss off golems, christ.

Golems antagonizing the station unprovoked is a player issue, not an issue with the role. the current rules already punish attacking the station with no good reason.

However golems abusing respawning mechanics to suicide bomb should be punished as well. If a golem wants to attack the station they should do something creative like make mechs.

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Re: remove golems (not literally remove i just wanted an eye catchy subject)

Postby confused rock » Fri Dec 21, 2018 5:31 pm #463895

Onr player “provoking” golems doesn’t give them a free pass to commit a mass shooting. That’s like if we let scientists maxcap cargo if they never get mats. 10 times.
Full on respawn ghost roles spoil people - why would you ever pick a scientist’s slave golem when you can be a free one? Why go holopara or pai when you can go ashwalker or posibrain? It’s at the point where the literal fucking respawn of the research station ruin is never used.
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Re: remove golems (not literally remove i just wanted an eye catchy subject)

Postby teepeepee » Fri Dec 21, 2018 7:11 pm #463905

just ban the bad players lmao, it's not like there's infinite players, unless you unban them from ghostroles they will pull this shit off once and that's it

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Re: remove golems (not literally remove i just wanted an eye catchy subject)

Postby Dr_bee » Fri Dec 21, 2018 7:25 pm #463906

confused rock wrote:Onr player “provoking” golems doesn’t give them a free pass to commit a mass shooting. That’s like if we let scientists maxcap cargo if they never get mats. 10 times.
Full on respawn ghost roles spoil people - why would you ever pick a scientist’s slave golem when you can be a free one? Why go holopara or pai when you can go ashwalker or posibrain? It’s at the point where the literal fucking respawn of the research station ruin is never used.


In the case described that one player was the captain, who has the authority to order shit like a war. That wasnt just some rando assistant or miner causing problems, it was the leader of the station.

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Re: remove golems (not literally remove i just wanted an eye catchy subject)

Postby CrazyClown12 » Fri Dec 21, 2018 7:42 pm #463910

[quote="Dr_bee"]
In the case described that one player was the captain, who has the authority to order shit like a war. That wasnt just some rando assistant or miner causing problems, it was the leader of the station.

They should be held responsible for their actions then. One day ban for every death.

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Re: remove golems (not literally remove i just wanted an eye catchy subject)

Postby confused rock » Fri Dec 21, 2018 8:06 pm #463920

Get real, nobody treats the captain like that. From an rp standpoint, the golems were meta as fuck shitlords who violated most laws of war. From a non rp standpoint, you can't shit on the station like that for what the captain did. The golems just looked for an excuse for epic frags.
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Re: remove golems (not literally remove i just wanted an eye catchy subject)

Postby obscolene » Fri Dec 21, 2018 8:47 pm #463927

confused rock wrote:That’s like if we let scientists maxcap cargo if they never get mats. 10 times.

No, it's more like if a traitor bombed the station so the captain declared war on scientists and had them all being killed in the halls on sight, to which a scientist maxcapped the station. Which would be completely valid.
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Re: remove golems (not literally remove i just wanted an eye catchy subject)

Postby Incomptinence » Fri Dec 21, 2018 9:33 pm #463933

The round in question sounds to be a case of captain/crew outright screaming for blood on coms like idiots rather than just meeting up somewhere and discussing taking a posse over to kill all the golems in person.

Golems could be removed but doing things this stupid would still get you beaten black and blue you imbeciles.

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Re: remove golems (not literally remove i just wanted an eye catchy subject)

Postby wesoda25 » Fri Dec 21, 2018 10:38 pm #463954

teepeepee wrote:just ban the bad players lmao, it's not like there's infinite players, unless you unban them from ghostroles they will pull this shit off once and that's it

Shit argument. Basically there is an infinite amount of players if you’re on bagil. Plus, its often too eventful for admins to ban everyone at fault. The fact that this shit continually happens is proof of it.
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Re: remove golems (not literally remove i just wanted an eye catchy subject)

Postby confused rock » Fri Dec 21, 2018 10:38 pm #463955

No, it's more lik- why am I even arguing with fucking obscolene
unless its rev rounds and four of the heads are dead, you don't go around killing random innocents in retaliation for what one guy said. and then respawning and doing it over and over.
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Re: remove golems (not literally remove i just wanted an eye catchy subject)

Postby somerandomguy » Fri Dec 21, 2018 10:39 pm #463957

wesoda25 wrote:
teepeepee wrote:just ban the bad players lmao, it's not like there's infinite players, unless you unban them from ghostroles they will pull this shit off once and that's it

Shit argument. Basically there is an infinite amount of players if you’re on bagil. Plus, its often too eventful for admins to ban everyone at fault. The fact that this shit continually happens is proof of it.

>there is an infinite amount of players
if there was bagil would have 500+ players right now

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Re: remove golems (not literally remove i just wanted an eye catchy subject)

Postby wesoda25 » Fri Dec 21, 2018 10:43 pm #463961

somerandomguy wrote:
wesoda25 wrote:
teepeepee wrote:just ban the bad players lmao, it's not like there's infinite players, unless you unban them from ghostroles they will pull this shit off once and that's it

Shit argument. Basically there is an infinite amount of players if you’re on bagil. Plus, its often too eventful for admins to ban everyone at fault. The fact that this shit continually happens is proof of it.

>there is an infinite amount of players
if there was bagil would have 500+ players right now

It’s almost as if tg is a popular server, bagil is tgs most popular, and ss13 pulls players at a steady rate. Meaning it won’t be a problem everyday, but it sure as hell will be a continuous one.
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Re: remove golems (not literally remove i just wanted an eye catchy subject)

Postby somerandomguy » Fri Dec 21, 2018 11:03 pm #463977

wesoda25 wrote:
somerandomguy wrote:
wesoda25 wrote:
teepeepee wrote:just ban the bad players lmao, it's not like there's infinite players, unless you unban them from ghostroles they will pull this shit off once and that's it

Shit argument. Basically there is an infinite amount of players if you’re on bagil. Plus, its often too eventful for admins to ban everyone at fault. The fact that this shit continually happens is proof of it.

>there is an infinite amount of players
if there was bagil would have 500+ players right now

It’s almost as if tg is a popular server, bagil is tgs most popular, and ss13 pulls players at a steady rate. Meaning it won’t be a problem everyday, but it sure as hell will be a continuous one.

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Re: remove golems (not literally remove i just wanted an eye catchy subject)

Postby Zarniwoop » Fri Dec 21, 2018 11:04 pm #463978

The game would be more fun if I always won. Can we please remove anything that might make me lose? I’m not very robust.

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Re: remove golems (not literally remove i just wanted an eye catchy subject)

Postby somerandomguy » Fri Dec 21, 2018 11:07 pm #463981

Zarniwoop wrote:The game would be more fun if I always won. Can we please remove anything that might make me lose? I’m not very robust.

*gets nonantag murderboned and ahelps*
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Re: remove golems (not literally remove i just wanted an eye catchy subject)

Postby Shadowflame909 » Fri Dec 21, 2018 11:17 pm #463986

Why isn't this titled remove ghost roles.

As if you remove one. They'll just grief with the next.

(ALSO ASH-LIZARDS ARE LITERALLY FREE ANTAG SPAWNS. IF THEY GET TO THE STATION. THEY GET FREE REIGN TO BE A 0 TC TRAITOR)

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Re: remove golems (not literally remove i just wanted an eye catchy subject)

Postby Floiven » Sat Dec 22, 2018 12:36 am #463993

Just ban people from ghost roles after a warning or two. Don't remove more things like drones because some people couldn't handle their basic premise of the bonus chances they've been given to participate in the round in some way.

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Re: remove golems (not literally remove i just wanted an eye catchy subject)

Postby teepeepee » Sat Dec 22, 2018 10:00 am #464079

wesoda25 wrote:
teepeepee wrote:just ban the bad players lmao, it's not like there's infinite players, unless you unban them from ghostroles they will pull this shit off once and that's it

Shit argument. Basically there is an infinite amount of players if you’re on bagil. Plus, its often too eventful for admins to ban everyone at fault. The fact that this shit continually happens is proof of it.

no, it's just proof those players weren't banned yet, they are not infinite, once the jokers get banned and the fad goes away we will only have good golem players or none at all, sure, one, two, maybe 100 rounds get derailed, but that's a very low price to pay for removing dumb people from ghostroles. Just don't unban them later lmao

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Re: remove golems (not literally remove i just wanted an eye catchy subject)

Postby Dax Dupont » Sat Dec 22, 2018 11:24 am #464088

Floiven wrote:Just ban people from ghost roles after a warning or two. Don't remove more things like drones because some people couldn't handle their basic premise of the bonus chances they've been given to participate in the round in some way.

If they BoH bomb with terrible reason they should be looking at a ban per person they killed instead of having to do the two warning tango.

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Re: remove golems (not literally remove i just wanted an eye catchy subject)

Postby Rustledjimm » Sat Dec 22, 2018 12:02 pm #464090

I always disliked Ash lizards being free antags convince me otherwise
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Re: remove golems (not literally remove i just wanted an eye catchy subject)

Postby BeeSting12 » Sat Dec 22, 2018 4:40 pm #464108

Rustledjimm wrote:I always disliked Ash lizards being free antags convince me otherwise

They're the only good lavaland ghost role besides the prisoners and syndie base (RIP lavaland prisoners). Creating interesting conflicts should be the point of them.
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Re: remove golems (not literally remove i just wanted an eye catchy subject)

Postby Screemonster » Sat Dec 22, 2018 5:01 pm #464112

BeeSting12 wrote:
Rustledjimm wrote:I always disliked Ash lizards being free antags convince me otherwise

They're the only good lavaland ghost role besides the prisoners and syndie base (RIP lavaland prisoners). Creating interesting conflicts should be the point of them.

at least the ones that are antag from the start have an excuse to beeline the station and attack it as opposed to "I literally began my existence and yet I magically know we are at war with the station and my purpose is to bomb it"

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Re: remove golems (not literally remove i just wanted an eye catchy subject)

Postby wesoda25 » Sat Dec 22, 2018 5:07 pm #464113

Rustledjimm wrote:I always disliked Ash lizards being free antags convince me otherwise

Ash Walkers are fine because they create fun, interesting skirmishes that can be drawn out or ended instantly. I’ve seen plenty of fun ash lizards scenarios play out, such as them taking cargo, seceding, and the station sending lizard diplomats. Or the station stealing eggs and making a zoo. And theres nothing better than going to the mining station while armed to the teeth and mowing down lizard after lizard.

The difference is that Golems are completely stacked with gear, and often come with the mentality of hoping to get attacked. Its amazing because nearly all of them act as a hivemind, just waiting for an assistant to kill one of their own so they can declare war.

The unifying problem between the two is respawn abuse.
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Re: remove golems (not literally remove i just wanted an eye catchy subject)

Postby Screemonster » Sat Dec 22, 2018 5:18 pm #464115

wesoda25 wrote:The unifying problem between the two is respawn abuse.

On the one hand a cooldown on ghostroles would help mitigate this (like you wouldn't throw yourself away so casually if you had to wait five minutes after death before you could spawn another one) but on the other hand that idea feels too much like punishing everyone for the actions of one particular group of metagaming shitters

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Re: remove golems (not literally remove i just wanted an eye catchy subject)

Postby wesoda25 » Sat Dec 22, 2018 5:36 pm #464121

Screemonster wrote:
wesoda25 wrote:The unifying problem between the two is respawn abuse.

On the one hand a cooldown on ghostroles would help mitigate this (like you wouldn't throw yourself away so casually if you had to wait five minutes after death before you could spawn another one) but on the other hand that idea feels too much like punishing everyone for the actions of one particular group of metagaming shitters

I mean I feel as if you should only get to spawn in as a certain type of ghost role once. It doesn’t really punish anyone, just betters the station. Meaning, you die as golem, you can still spawn as ash ligger or stranded vet. If players still meta knowledge/grudge I think it’d be a lot easier to identify and ban them.

Dunno if we’d apply this to roles such as swarmers, but I feel if it was implemented most of the golem issues would go away, and good players would still get to enjoy the role. It’ll also encourage them to stay on lavaland.
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Re: remove golems (not literally remove i just wanted an eye catchy subject)

Postby Cobby » Sat Dec 22, 2018 10:44 pm #464152

D&B wrote:Why keep around a RND tutorial ghost role when RND doesn't need a tutorial anymore?


Funny thing is they just use the "RND Tutorial" to second life with newfound powers
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Re: remove golems (not literally remove i just wanted an eye catchy subject)

Postby TehSteveo » Sat Dec 22, 2018 11:17 pm #464153

Why not just ban FreeGolems who abuse the role that isn't meant to be openely antagonistic? Same for golems going against the directives of the scienctist who created them. Obviously if the scientist is antagonist, well then we can see removing them if it becomes something where every round is impacted by it.

It's like we're just in a state where someone or somegroup does bad thing we just go knee-jerk to want to remove the thing. Until the next time another thing is abused and we remove it.
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Re: remove golems (not literally remove i just wanted an eye catchy subject)

Postby subject217 » Sat Dec 22, 2018 11:24 pm #464157

a good example is the round that prompted the re-ignition of the free golem argument. one person (a clown) boh bombs the brig for no reason (he got banned), the captain assumes the free golems did it and declares war on them, the free golems respond with the nuclear option, at the end of the day the station is totally fucked and the emergency shuttle is fucked too. this is 100% allowed by the rules as it is the station declaring war on the golems and getting """"""what they deserve"""""".

now, is this actually fun for the majority of players, most of whom were innocent bystanders? no, it is not. is there any risk involved for the free golems? no, there isn't, it's a low investment ghost role that can create more respawns for itself.

you can say situations like this are rare but the important thing to note is that you can't just say "well ban the shitters!" free golems in their current state are heavily prone to getting into these sort of circumstances, outside of this single example. thus, either their rules should be changed, their flavor text should be changed, or they should be otherwise mechanically limited from getting into things like this constantly.
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Re: remove golems (not literally remove i just wanted an eye catchy subject)

Postby somerandomguy » Sat Dec 22, 2018 11:48 pm #464165

subject217 wrote:a good example is the round that prompted the re-ignition of the free golem argument. one person (a clown) boh bombs the brig for no reason (he got banned), the captain assumes the free golems did it and declares war on them, the free golems respond with the nuclear option, at the end of the day the station is totally fucked and the emergency shuttle is fucked too. this is 100% allowed by the rules as it is the station declaring war on the golems and getting """"""what they deserve"""""".

now, is this actually fun for the majority of players, most of whom were innocent bystanders? no, it is not. is there any risk involved for the free golems? no, there isn't, it's a low investment ghost role that can create more respawns for itself.

you can say situations like this are rare but the important thing to note is that you can't just say "well ban the shitters!" free golems in their current state are heavily prone to getting into these sort of circumstances, outside of this single example. thus, either their rules should be changed, their flavor text should be changed, or they should be otherwise mechanically limited from getting into things like this constantly.

easy fix just make them not be able to remember their past life

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Re: remove golems (not literally remove i just wanted an eye catchy subject)

Postby Nilons » Sun Dec 23, 2018 12:17 am #464169

somerandomguy wrote:
subject217 wrote:a good example is the round that prompted the re-ignition of the free golem argument. one person (a clown) boh bombs the brig for no reason (he got banned), the captain assumes the free golems did it and declares war on them, the free golems respond with the nuclear option, at the end of the day the station is totally fucked and the emergency shuttle is fucked too. this is 100% allowed by the rules as it is the station declaring war on the golems and getting """"""what they deserve"""""".

now, is this actually fun for the majority of players, most of whom were innocent bystanders? no, it is not. is there any risk involved for the free golems? no, there isn't, it's a low investment ghost role that can create more respawns for itself.

you can say situations like this are rare but the important thing to note is that you can't just say "well ban the shitters!" free golems in their current state are heavily prone to getting into these sort of circumstances, outside of this single example. thus, either their rules should be changed, their flavor text should be changed, or they should be otherwise mechanically limited from getting into things like this constantly.

easy fix just make them not be able to remember their past life

Die then respawn

"Hey what are we doing"

"Attacking the station"

with groups of people like this its stupidly easy to circumvent not having that knowledge
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Re: remove golems (not literally remove i just wanted an eye catchy subject)

Postby somerandomguy » Sun Dec 23, 2018 2:45 am #464201

this is talking about people wordlessly respawning and bombing without asking or being told that they're at war aka literal metagaming

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Re: remove golems (not literally remove i just wanted an eye catchy subject)

Postby wesoda25 » Sun Dec 23, 2018 5:01 am #464210

somerandomguy wrote:this is talking about people wordlessly respawning and bombing without asking or being told that they're at war aka literal metagaming

Ok but what do you have against the idea of only being able to spawn in as a certain ghost role once? Like is there any logical argument?

And golems telling each other about the war and the freshly respawned golems instantly grabbing two boh bags and then repeating the process is just as bad. Its as if you arrive as a scientist and the robocist tells you to kill all of sec and command and you do it. Shitty fucking logic. Shitty fucking players.
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Re: remove golems (not literally remove i just wanted an eye catchy subject)

Postby Shadowflame909 » Sun Dec 23, 2018 5:54 am #464212

wesoda25 wrote:
somerandomguy wrote:this is talking about people wordlessly respawning and bombing without asking or being told that they're at war aka literal metagaming

Ok but what do you have against the idea of only being able to spawn in as a certain ghost role once? Like is there any logical argument?

And golems telling each other about the war and the freshly respawned golems instantly grabbing two boh bags and then repeating the process is just as bad. Its as if you arrive as a scientist and the robocist tells you to kill all of sec and command and you do it. Shitty fucking logic. Shitty fucking players.



More like if you just arrived and the Roboticist tells you that cultists were murderboning and no longer taking converts

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Re: remove golems (not literally remove i just wanted an eye catchy subject)

Postby Tlaltecuhtli » Sun Dec 23, 2018 9:11 am #464224

idea 1: give golems just the cargo lathe (only mining stuff)
idea 2: give golems cargo lathe and omni printer (still no good parts so tier 1 combat mechs)
idea 3: give them snowflake list of things they can print (no teles, combat mechas, bohs)
idea 4: rely on players goodwill and admins doing their jobs
idea 5: remove golems
idea 6: respawn cooldowns of ghost roles

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Re: remove golems (not literally remove i just wanted an eye catchy subject)

Postby charmisokay » Sun Dec 23, 2018 9:58 am #464227

1-3 seems like a a simple solution.

Ash walkers are fun because they storm the station with spears and bones. Every crewmember could realistically fight back against ash walkers.
Golems are not fun because they destroy the station with teleport + boh or loaded mechs. You sort of need to teleport down to the golems and destroy them before they destroy you otherwise it'll never end and every human that dies might not return whereas creating new golems is pretty easy.

We could add a random mech spawn or teleporter room to the list of lavaland locations if we still want the same sort of thing to potentially happen. (if anybody wanna bother making it, that is).

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