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Hygiene Removal

For feedback on the game code and design. Feedback on server rules and playstyle belong in Policy Discussion.

Moderators: MisterPerson, Code Maintainers

Should Hygiene be Removed

Yes
68
72%
No
25
26%
Abstain
2
2%
 
Total votes : 95

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Qustinnus
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Re: Hygiene Removal

Postby Qustinnus » Mon Jan 07, 2019 5:53 am #467456

Mickyan wrote:
Qustinnus wrote:
Mickyan wrote:I am not a fan of it in its current state

-There are no meaningful ways to interact with this feature. I can't just change clothes or avoid doing certain things to not get dirty (I think the only thing that affects it is being covered in blood?), you just rush to a shower once the overlay pops up

not true, if you are covered in blood you will get dirty faster, so changing clothes prevents you from getting dirty fast.

Not really meaningful since it's far easier and more efficient to just walk under a shower and changing clothes does nothing unless you're already covered in blood

The thing is I like moodlets because they push people just a little bit towards playing in a more sensible manner. I'd be entirely on board with this if hygiene only went down while covered in blood and whatnot instead of constantly going down but as it stands none of the people who would normally merrily walk around covered in blood are going to give a damn about this because it doesn't affect them personally, it just makes everyone else's life just a little bit more miserable thanks to the miasma buildup.
For everyone else it's just extra annoying busywork.

agreed so I'll probably remove the default trickle



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oranges
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Re: Hygiene Removal

Postby oranges » Mon Jan 07, 2019 6:13 am #467460

seems okay
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Re: Hygiene Removal

Postby 4dplanner » Mon Jan 07, 2019 8:42 am #467484

Do you get warning before the greensprite?

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Re: Hygiene Removal

Postby Anuv » Mon Jan 07, 2019 11:10 am #467491

I actually like it a lot mechanically as it's one of the few things that can cause a job like chef/botanist/chemist to leave their little safe hut for a bit and give assassins a chance.
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Re: Hygiene Removal

Postby Dr_bee » Mon Jan 07, 2019 1:00 pm #467500

It needs to negatively effect the person who is dirty more to be honest. while it is funny to stun baton stank assistants as the janitor and force them to take a shower, it eventually gets rather old.

This is like moodlets when it was first added, janky but a good foundation for roleplay encouraging mechanics.

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Qustinnus
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Re: Hygiene Removal

Postby Qustinnus » Mon Jan 07, 2019 2:00 pm #467512

4dplanner wrote:Do you get warning before the greensprite?

no but i realized i should add this and I will add warning messages for the player

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Re: Hygiene Removal

Postby Lumbermancer » Mon Jan 07, 2019 2:51 pm #467514

Examination or moodlet about GETTIN GRIMY.
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Re: Hygiene Removal

Postby WarbossLincoln » Mon Jan 07, 2019 3:09 pm #467515

wesoda25 wrote:Hygiene is a pure shit PR, it adds no sort of depth or complexity to the game, its just annoying as fuck to look at. Mood made sense. Hunger made sense. Its fucking an online atmos simulator who the fuck cares about virtual hygiene.

Lets take bets on how long until the server is flooded with even more shitty character gimmicks, this time involving smelling bad. Fuck lizard players probably get turned on by this shit.

If it was added for the "realism" argument, then lets make one gunshot kill/knockout someone. Then it'll be more realistic, right??!



As a gun nut I feel I have to point out what others most likely have, it's kind of a crap shoot if a gunshot actually incapacitates someone quickly. It all depends on shot placement, robustness of the individual, luck, etc. Even someone shot in the heart could live long enough to shoot you back if the shock of it didn't take them down. It's also the only reason shotguns are any good. Shotguns are big, heavy, high recoil, easy to short shuck on a pump and somewhat easy to jam on an automatic, not easy to shoot well, each projectile causes less trauma and overpenetrates compared to a rifle. But in a single shot you get 9-30ish chances depending on shot size to hit something vital compared to 1, that's their advantage.

On topic: Hygiene was a bad idea and all it does is add a distracting overlay. It doesn't add anything to gameplay and if you care enough to get rid of it you just need 1 click on a shower and it instantly goes away. One time back on NOX they added shit to the game and that was more immersive than hygene. And that was so dumb and terrible that even NOX removed it after a week.
--Crocodillo

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Re: Hygiene Removal

Postby Qustinnus » Mon Jan 07, 2019 3:12 pm #467516

WarbossLincoln wrote:
wesoda25 wrote:Hygiene is a pure shit PR, it adds no sort of depth or complexity to the game, its just annoying as fuck to look at. Mood made sense. Hunger made sense. Its fucking an online atmos simulator who the fuck cares about virtual hygiene.

Lets take bets on how long until the server is flooded with even more shitty character gimmicks, this time involving smelling bad. Fuck lizard players probably get turned on by this shit.

If it was added for the "realism" argument, then lets make one gunshot kill/knockout someone. Then it'll be more realistic, right??!



As a gun nut I feel I have to point out what others most likely have, it's kind of a crap shoot if a gunshot actually incapacitates someone quickly. It all depends on shot placement, robustness of the individual, luck, etc. Even someone shot in the heart could live long enough to shoot you back if the shock of it didn't take them down. It's also the only reason shotguns are any good. Shotguns are big, heavy, high recoil, easy to short shuck on a pump and somewhat easy to jam on an automatic, not easy to shoot well, each projectile causes less trauma and overpenetrates compared to a rifle. But in a single shot you get 9-30ish chances depending on shot size to hit something vital compared to 1, that's their advantage.

On topic: Hygiene was a bad idea and all it does is add a distracting overlay. It doesn't add anything to gameplay and if you care enough to get rid of it you just need 1 click on a shower and it instantly goes away. One time back on NOX they added shit to the game and that was more immersive than hygene. And that was so dumb and terrible that even NOX removed it after a week.


have you actually played since hygiene was added because I feel like the wacky people that post about it keep missing the part where its not just one click because they havn't played and thus didn't notice the second change I added

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Re: Hygiene Removal

Postby WarbossLincoln » Mon Jan 07, 2019 3:23 pm #467518

I've played the last few days. When the stinky cloud appeared it took 1 click from a shower and it instantly went away. That's the extent of the impact it's ever had on a round for me.
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Re: Hygiene Removal

Postby zxaber » Mon Jan 07, 2019 6:10 pm #467542

Yeah. It's such an empty feature that I can't even properly hate it. There's literally nothing here to hate. It's a stinky cloud sprite that has no effect and takes no effort to remove anyway. Why was it added? What does it do? Answers inconclusive.
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Re: Hygiene Removal

Postby Lumbermancer » Mon Jan 07, 2019 6:52 pm #467549

Doesn't it confer negative moodlet? Doesn't it generate miasma? Doesn't it spotaneously generate diseases?
aka Schlomo Gaskin aka Guru Meditation aka Copyright Alright aka Topkek McHonk aka Le Rouge
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Re: Hygiene Removal

Postby Dr_bee » Mon Jan 07, 2019 7:05 pm #467551

Lumbermancer wrote:Doesn't it confer negative moodlet? Doesn't it generate miasma? Doesn't it spotaneously generate diseases?


Hygiene itself doesn't, it does generate miasma but it takes awhile for it to actually have any effect on a person. at least in the current game. Now that scrubbers will no longer be scrubbing miasma by default there may be a more noticeable effect from miasma buildup from improper body storage and other miasma generators like gibs.

It still should have a negative effect in the person who is dirty and mostly be a consequence of walking around covered in blood or vomit or something, If you arent knee deep in the dead you really shouldn't need to take a shower after 30 minutes of activity.

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Re: Hygiene Removal

Postby WarbossLincoln » Mon Jan 07, 2019 7:17 pm #467555

I never noticed a moodlet cause I'm usually already in a bad mood from being beaten by sec or from not being able to eat most of what the chef usually cooks.
--Crocodillo

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Re: Hygiene Removal

Postby Grazyn » Mon Jan 07, 2019 10:00 pm #467590

As long as people don't get banned/bwoinked for staying dirty (since it spawns miasma which can spread disease) it's good by me

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Re: Hygiene Removal

Postby Lumbermancer » Mon Jan 07, 2019 10:16 pm #467594

Nah, you'll only get arrested and forcefully hosed down in the perma.
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Re: Hygiene Removal

Postby Ayy Lemoh » Tue Jan 08, 2019 9:59 pm #467753

can coders stop trying to fucking ruin any hope of an admin away mission without it being ruined by shit like this

Spoiler:
Qustinnus, I do not know how you shower but here is a pop quiz on how I think you do it
A. You shower normally and know that if you accidently had some socks on or a headset then you would still be clean
B. You go completely naked, which is normal, however you do it because you think that you would never be able to get clean otherwise if you had even ONE sock on.

I hope you pick A because that means there's a bug where you can't shower at all unless you take LITERALLY EVERYTHING OFF. If you picked B then that is the most autistic thing I have ever heard.

tl;dr you can't shower without taking EVERYTHING off. No shoes, backpacks, headsets, cigars, or scarves allowed. If this is an intended feature then I would prefer if you remove the fucking shower debuff atleast or just remove this retarded part of hygiene in general. Give us a god damn break, Qustinnus. People like survival simulators. People even like life simulators however who wants to fucking play ss13 to not only take a shower but remove EVERY ARTICLE OF CLOTHING to take said shower. This is not a HRP server, Qustinnus. It should be MRP at best and this is not a fucking MRP feature at all.

It's actually getting so autistic that despite me knowing that this isn't fetish content, I can definitely see it being considered as fetish content.

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Re: Hygiene Removal

Postby Grazyn » Tue Jan 08, 2019 10:21 pm #467757

Well duh doy, if showering was so simple then the feature would be too easy to ignore. But again, being dirty is entirely cosmetic, it doesn't affect mood, miasma takes a long time to spawn and it wouldn't even affect you if you move out of the cloud fast enough

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Re: Hygiene Removal

Postby Ayy Lemoh » Tue Jan 08, 2019 10:26 pm #467758

Grazyn wrote:Well duh doy, if showering was so simple then the feature would be too easy to ignore. But again, being dirty is entirely cosmetic, it doesn't affect mood, miasma takes a long time to spawn and it wouldn't even affect you if you move out of the cloud fast enough

if it's cosmetic then why is it so god damn annoying?
when have you ever been unable to get clean from washing your hands because you accidently wore glasses? I can get someone not getting clean while having a jumpsuit and armor vest on however a fucking backpack and shoes prevents me from getting clean? Do I have the fucking downs?!

You are already getting people to leave their workplace to take a shower. Alright. Now you want them to completely remove all clothes to take a shower. So what exactly do event characters or anyone with an impossible-to-remove clothing item do then?

I don't want admin events to be fucking ruined into nothing all because of dumb bullshit that they can't prevent. It would be fine to see someone go onto an away mission an admin made and then completely destroy the full thing however it's just annoying if video game code fucking does it without player interaction at all.

edit: also, hygiene wouldn't actually ruin admin events into nothing however it sure would fucking be annoying as hell to do something cool however you forgot to include 50 showers while making sure you can quickly un-curse and re-curse an item so no one steals it
Last edited by Ayy Lemoh on Tue Jan 08, 2019 10:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Hygiene Removal

Postby Grazyn » Tue Jan 08, 2019 10:31 pm #467759

What exactly is annoying about it, the sprite? Then complain about the sprite. There is no game mechanic that is negatively affected by hygiene. If you want to shower, you're doing it for RP reasons. And since you're doing it for RP, you're supposed to shower like normal people do, i.e. naked. People don't shower with their fucking AirPods in.

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Re: Hygiene Removal

Postby Ayy Lemoh » Tue Jan 08, 2019 10:35 pm #467760

Grazyn wrote:What exactly is annoying about it, the sprite? Then complain about the sprite.

Yes, it's the fucking sprite. It's like the fear of miasma except stinking doesn't create atmos gas that can fuck over shit if given enough time (except indirectly it does). In order to make said sprite not be an issue, I'd basically have to go "yo, can you just remove the negative part of stinking????" which I doubt Qustinnus would ever fucking do since that defeats his PR. Even if the sprite was lowered to a less visible level, I think it would still cause issue since who the fuck wants that?

If the sprite is really easy to delete from a few characters or something then fine. If not then jesus fucking christ just kill me with this bullshit.

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Re: Hygiene Removal

Postby Shadowflame909 » Tue Jan 08, 2019 10:56 pm #467764

There's one upside to this Jerry Derp.

Traitor Camo as a shower in the bathroom, and when the HOS gets naked. You e-bow them and swirlie them to death, they won't be able to defend themselves or call for help as their headset and all of their gear would be off.

Lethal Kill 100


It's really weird how PRs like these are enforcing a higher standard of Arepee when the rules aren't, though.

Code-Base and Admin Separation is really jarring
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Spoiler:
ThanatosRa wrote:My biggest problem is that I can't fix any of this.


Boris wrote:shadowflame either has a brain the size of a pea or one the size of the moon and he's playing 58D chess.


BeeSting12 wrote:please write an apology to this forums, this community, the host, and the internet as a whole for the data storage space you wasted with this complaint.


BebeYoshi wrote:Saltyflame909


Cobby wrote:The trash bin... have you lost your way home anon?

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Re: Hygiene Removal

Postby Ayy Lemoh » Tue Jan 08, 2019 11:02 pm #467768

Shadowflame909 wrote:here's how we can abuse this to kill players

if only i was a murderboning dickhead who utilized this.

Seriously though, this is a bigger downside than literally anything else I have seen on the server. Wanna not look autistic? better risk EVERYTHING YOU HAVE or else. Yes, you can be smart and have it all in a backpack but you still risk everything you have.

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Re: Hygiene Removal

Postby wesoda25 » Wed Jan 09, 2019 1:19 am #467785

Good God it keeps on getting worse. You have to be completely naked and in shower? Really? So far I’ve spent half my round with the “im a fucking idiot I showered with my clothes on” debuff since I slipped into one coming out of medbay. Its just asking people to be robbed. Shit like this doesn’t encourage roleplay or make the game more fun. Its a pointless addition that, from what I can tell, a majority of the playerbase dislikes.
Spoiler:
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Re: Hygiene Removal

Postby Scottbert » Wed Jan 09, 2019 3:40 am #467813

This new mechanic just isn't fun, for a couple of reasons:
I. In the context of the rest of the game, having to strip all your clothes off is just not practical (unless you're the virologist/CMO and can use the decontamination shower) -- everyone is rightly afraid of getting griefed, and BYOND's clunky interface makes undressing and redressing a pain. Also, not all maps have showers in all departments.
II. Since people can't practically wash off the stink, the clouds are just a big annoying eyesore and encouragement for people to shout YOU STINK at eachother.
III. Edit: Just learned miasma makes disease! But it feels like it's impossible to keep up with all these random plagues as medbay.

After this point, I speak not as a critic but as an aspiring game designer.

II is mainly a side effect of I. So, what can we do to address I? It depends on what the goal of the hygiene system is. I can think of three; whoever's behind the hygiene system, feel free to chime in and correct me:
A. Realism!
B. Memes about NEETs and neat freaks!
C. Catching someone when they shower adds another way for antags to do their thing.

Solution 1: If the point of hygiene is to allow people to RP neat freaks or slobs, I can think of a fix that keeps this without being as annoying to everyone else:
*Characters with neither quirk don't use the hygiene system.
*Characters with the neat freak quirk do suffer from hygiene, but they get a positive mood when clean, they don't make miasma and only they can see the stink clouds on themselves: They're only dirty to their own exacting standards, after all, they look clean to everyone else. The inconvenience of stripping and showering on Space Station 13 is their own choice, the challenge they have to complete to keep their mood bonus.
*Characters with the NEET trait... okay, I can't think of how to make this fun for everyone. 'they get a mood bonus for being stinky' seems meh, and 'hygiene applies to them and generates miasma' will be used for them to grief everyone else with miasma, and possibly to coworkers cuffing them and dragging them to the showers. This needs workshopping.

Solution 2: If the point of hygiene is realism... Honestly, I don't feel it is realistic. SS13 shifts are usually 1-2 hours. If you're doing a relatively sedentary job you're not getting that dirty that fast; if you have a very active job you're probably okay with being sweaty for an hour or two. I suppose it COULD make sense to apply for someone who's been covered an alien goo or vomited on or something. Still, if you want to nod to realism while compromising with playability, you'd need to do several things:
*Showering in clothes counts for hygiene. Removing them is not good gameplay.
*Showering in clothes does not give you a negative mood.
*Change the maps to make sure there are accessible showers in every department.

Solution 2a: Make stinky status and having to shower nude very rare. It shouldn't be something that can happen to most of a department at once; maybe a few people a round at most. We don't want lines forming outside the one shower on the map where everyone has to stop doing their jobs and be extra paranoid about their stuff. Also, every player dealing with it every shift is an annoyance; it being a sort of event (or inflicted by a rare enemy?) that can happen to someone once in awhile is more of a challenge players can engage with.

Solution 3: If the point of hygiene is to give antags another way to catch their victims at a vulnerable point... I can see a few ways to engage with this:
*Solution 2a, above, sort of works for this too. Of course, your target won't always be the one hit with a stink-causing event, but when they are, what a happy accident!
*Stink could be something player-caused. However, in this case it needs to be rare enough that every round doesn't consist of the clowntide spreading stink around everywhere. However, if it's rare and player-caused, that might make it obvious that if you get stinkbombed, someone is after you and planning to ambush you in the shower. This needs workshopping.
*Instead of requiring stripping clothes, add a special interaction with showers, 'take shower', that takes a few seconds to complete, and leaves you unable to use any slots except your hands for a few seconds when finished or interrupted (the same status effect might make stripping faster for anyone trying to remove your gear, too.) This is functionally the same as what we have now but removes the tedious clicking and makes gear a bit less likely to be stolen.
*Solution 1 sort of helps here; Sometimes your target will be a neat freak, and then you'll get to ambush them in the shower if you want.

Solution 4: Just remove hygiene. The game was fine before it. (This also applies to any argument of 'just ignore it it doesn't really matter lol' -- if people are supposed to ignore it, why have it in the first place?)

Edit: The disease angle is an interesting idea, but as it is it feels like it's impossible for medbay to keep up. Changes that make the stink rarer might alleviate this anyway; another possibility I can think of is to limit the spread of these diseases to people who are themselves unclean, and possibly give them a chance to cure on their own after an infectee gets clean.

I hope that whoever designed the hygiene system finds this post helpful.

PostThis post was deleted by TehSteveo on Thu Jan 10, 2019 4:53 am.
Reason: Rule 1

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Grazyn
 
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Re: Hygiene Removal

Postby Grazyn » Wed Jan 09, 2019 7:39 am #467844

"If people are supposed to ignore it why have it in the first place"

They're not supposed to ignore it, but they can ignore it with almost negligible consequences. Not every single feature in the game is mandatory to play. Just think for a second, if Qustinnus didn't want people to ignore it, all he had to do was make bad hygiene give a bad mood. Instead, he chose to make it so the worst thing that can happen is miasma after a very long time which has a ridiculously remote chance to negatively affect you (even if you get a virus, it's likely that curing it will be still faster than showering). Not only that, but he even added a trait that rewards you for ignoring hygiene.

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Qustinnus
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Re: Hygiene Removal

Postby Qustinnus » Wed Jan 09, 2019 9:49 am #467891

I'm going to remove the automatic draining of hygiene and make the sprite less obstructive, I might lower miasma rates and I'm going to nerf the NEET trait. The mapping problem isn't my problem, because I'm not going to edit 8 maps, either the maintainers should cull non-maintained maps or the map maintainers should update the maps.

Besides that, I have enough solutions to problems in this thread (such as cleaning foam not cleaning players) and most of those are bugs. Posting in this thread like I'm purposefully avoiding things like that is an epic gamer way of making sure I'll ignore your posts.

Scottbert wrote:This new mechanic just isn't fun, for a couple of reasons:
I. In the context of the rest of the game, having to strip all your clothes off is just not practical (unless you're the virologist/CMO and can use the decontamination shower) -- everyone is rightly afraid of getting griefed, and BYOND's clunky interface makes undressing and redressing a pain. Also, not all maps have showers in all departments.
II. Since people can't practically wash off the stink, the clouds are just a big annoying eyesore and encouragement for people to shout YOU STINK at eachother.
III. Edit: Just learned miasma makes disease! But it feels like it's impossible to keep up with all these random plagues as medbay.

After this point, I speak not as a critic but as an aspiring game designer.

II is mainly a side effect of I. So, what can we do to address I? It depends on what the goal of the hygiene system is. I can think of three; whoever's behind the hygiene system, feel free to chime in and correct me:
A. Realism!
B. Memes about NEETs and neat freaks!
C. Catching someone when they shower adds another way for antags to do their thing.

Solution 1: If the point of hygiene is to allow people to RP neat freaks or slobs, I can think of a fix that keeps this without being as annoying to everyone else:
*Characters with neither quirk don't use the hygiene system.
*Characters with the neat freak quirk do suffer from hygiene, but they get a positive mood when clean, they don't make miasma and only they can see the stink clouds on themselves: They're only dirty to their own exacting standards, after all, they look clean to everyone else. The inconvenience of stripping and showering on Space Station 13 is their own choice, the challenge they have to complete to keep their mood bonus.
*Characters with the NEET trait... okay, I can't think of how to make this fun for everyone. 'they get a mood bonus for being stinky' seems meh, and 'hygiene applies to them and generates miasma' will be used for them to grief everyone else with miasma, and possibly to coworkers cuffing them and dragging them to the showers. This needs workshopping.

Solution 2: If the point of hygiene is realism... Honestly, I don't feel it is realistic. SS13 shifts are usually 1-2 hours. If you're doing a relatively sedentary job you're not getting that dirty that fast; if you have a very active job you're probably okay with being sweaty for an hour or two. I suppose it COULD make sense to apply for someone who's been covered an alien goo or vomited on or something. Still, if you want to nod to realism while compromising with playability, you'd need to do several things:
*Showering in clothes counts for hygiene. Removing them is not good gameplay.
*Showering in clothes does not give you a negative mood.
*Change the maps to make sure there are accessible showers in every department.

Solution 2a: Make stinky status and having to shower nude very rare. It shouldn't be something that can happen to most of a department at once; maybe a few people a round at most. We don't want lines forming outside the one shower on the map where everyone has to stop doing their jobs and be extra paranoid about their stuff. Also, every player dealing with it every shift is an annoyance; it being a sort of event (or inflicted by a rare enemy?) that can happen to someone once in awhile is more of a challenge players can engage with.

Solution 3: If the point of hygiene is to give antags another way to catch their victims at a vulnerable point... I can see a few ways to engage with this:
*Solution 2a, above, sort of works for this too. Of course, your target won't always be the one hit with a stink-causing event, but when they are, what a happy accident!
*Stink could be something player-caused. However, in this case it needs to be rare enough that every round doesn't consist of the clowntide spreading stink around everywhere. However, if it's rare and player-caused, that might make it obvious that if you get stinkbombed, someone is after you and planning to ambush you in the shower. This needs workshopping.
*Instead of requiring stripping clothes, add a special interaction with showers, 'take shower', that takes a few seconds to complete, and leaves you unable to use any slots except your hands for a few seconds when finished or interrupted (the same status effect might make stripping faster for anyone trying to remove your gear, too.) This is functionally the same as what we have now but removes the tedious clicking and makes gear a bit less likely to be stolen.
*Solution 1 sort of helps here; Sometimes your target will be a neat freak, and then you'll get to ambush them in the shower if you want.

Solution 4: Just remove hygiene. The game was fine before it. (This also applies to any argument of 'just ignore it it doesn't really matter lol' -- if people are supposed to ignore it, why have it in the first place?)

Edit: The disease angle is an interesting idea, but as it is it feels like it's impossible for medbay to keep up. Changes that make the stink rarer might alleviate this anyway; another possibility I can think of is to limit the spread of these diseases to people who are themselves unclean, and possibly give them a chance to cure on their own after an infectee gets clean.

I hope that whoever designed the hygiene system finds this post helpful.



i feel like starting your suggestion with "as an aspiring game designer" really useless because it holds as much value to me as all the other suggestions.

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Qustinnus
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Re: Hygiene Removal

Postby Qustinnus » Wed Jan 09, 2019 9:51 am #467892

Grazyn wrote:"If people are supposed to ignore it why have it in the first place"

They're not supposed to ignore it, but they can ignore it with almost negligible consequences. Not every single feature in the game is mandatory to play. Just think for a second, if Qustinnus didn't want people to ignore it, all he had to do was make bad hygiene give a bad mood. Instead, he chose to make it so the worst thing that can happen is miasma after a very long time which has a ridiculously remote chance to negatively affect you (even if you get a virus, it's likely that curing it will be still faster than showering). Not only that, but he even added a trait that rewards you for ignoring hygiene.


if i added moodlets to it people would cry because whenever I add moodlets to things the dots get connected as me forcing literal hitler standards of rp.

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Re: Hygiene Removal

Postby Qustinnus » Wed Jan 09, 2019 9:55 am #467894

Ayy Lemoh wrote:if it's cosmetic then why is it so god damn annoying?
when have you ever been unable to get clean from washing your hands because you accidently wore glasses? I can get someone not getting clean while having a jumpsuit and armor vest on however a fucking backpack and shoes prevents me from getting clean? Do I have the fucking downs?!

washing your hands works just fine with clothes on

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Re: Hygiene Removal

Postby Grazyn » Wed Jan 09, 2019 11:14 am #467907

Qustinnus wrote:
Grazyn wrote:"If people are supposed to ignore it why have it in the first place"

They're not supposed to ignore it, but they can ignore it with almost negligible consequences. Not every single feature in the game is mandatory to play. Just think for a second, if Qustinnus didn't want people to ignore it, all he had to do was make bad hygiene give a bad mood. Instead, he chose to make it so the worst thing that can happen is miasma after a very long time which has a ridiculously remote chance to negatively affect you (even if you get a virus, it's likely that curing it will be still faster than showering). Not only that, but he even added a trait that rewards you for ignoring hygiene.


if i added moodlets to it people would cry because whenever I add moodlets to things the dots get connected as me forcing literal hitler standards of rp.

No, adding moodlets to hygiene would cause negative reactions because the showering change would go from "receiving a buff is harder" to "removing a debuff is harder"

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Re: Hygiene Removal

Postby NikNakFlak » Wed Jan 09, 2019 11:30 am #467909

This is by far the ugliest "feature" to the game I've seen since kor's big white hole. Admins spawned a bunch of mobs on centcom for a meme and by the time the shuttle arrived, they were all stinky af and you couldn't see shit. Why is this in our game? What on earth drove you to add stink to SS13?
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Re: Hygiene Removal

Postby Boris » Wed Jan 09, 2019 11:42 am #467915

The biggest issue i have with hygiene is that I HAVE TO TAKE MY STUFF OFF TO WASH MYSELF, the sprite is also bad but that can be fixed.
I have sinned and i must repent, go play starsector.

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Re: Hygiene Removal

Postby Yakumo_Chen » Wed Jan 09, 2019 12:23 pm #467923

I like the context of the PR as forcing people to occasionally take a shower encourages people moving around the station more, thus promoting antagonistic opportunity

What I don't like is that getting dirty feels like it happens way too fast, last time I played I feel like I had to go take a shower every few minutes, even while not dirty. I got hungry less often then I had to shower, which doesn't really reflect well any sort of "realism" or sensibility. I think the hygiene timer ticks could stand to increment just a little slower, more on par with hunger.
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Re: Hygiene Removal

Postby Scottbert » Wed Jan 09, 2019 1:27 pm #467936

Qustinnus wrote:i feel like starting your suggestion with "as an aspiring game designer" really useless because it holds as much value to me as all the other suggestions.

I understand that it's generally annoying for critics/players to tell game designers how to do their job; I concede that but thought my suggestions were at least a little better thought out and showed some knowledge of how they might effect the gameplay experience.

Perhaps if you explained what the goal of the hygiene system is, it would make players more understanding and generate more useful suggestions -- as it is, people can only spam 'remove hygiene' or provide suggestions based on guesses.

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Re: Hygiene Removal

Postby 4dplanner » Wed Jan 09, 2019 1:57 pm #467945

Q has said they'll fix the sprites and draining already, so it's probably best to save feedback on those fronts until that's done

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Re: Hygiene Removal

Postby Zarniwoop » Wed Jan 09, 2019 3:15 pm #467956

Scottbert wrote:
Qustinnus wrote:i feel like starting your suggestion with "as an aspiring game designer" really useless because it holds as much value to me as all the other suggestions.

I understand that it's generally annoying for critics/players to tell game designers how to do their job; I concede that but thought my suggestions were at least a little better thought out and showed some knowledge of how they might effect the gameplay experience.

Perhaps if you explained what the goal of the hygiene system is, it would make players more understanding and generate more useful suggestions -- as it is, people can only spam 'remove hygiene' or provide suggestions based on guesses.


I get the impression their goal is to ram through shitty features, dunno why. Probably retaliation for removing catgirls, the coders are mostly degenerates like that.

This clearly doesn't fit tg's playstyle, like many things being forced on anyone. And they don't care whether you coded byond yourself, they just use the coding excuse to tell players to fuck off. They'll move the goalposts for you if you actually can code. Also design isn't a part of development, because reasons.

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Re: Hygiene Removal

Postby Grazyn » Wed Jan 09, 2019 3:30 pm #467959

Design isn't part of development because it's just an open repository where everyone can contribute. The name "project" is misleading

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Re: Hygiene Removal

Postby Bombadil » Wed Jan 09, 2019 3:34 pm #467961

Hygiene kinda just seems like extra tedium that only really results in someone going to the showers for a nanosecond shower. I'm just glad that mining has a bathroom now. The only major interactiosn i really see from this is maybe someone waiting in the bathrooms to assassinate someone.
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Re: Hygiene Removal

Postby Zarniwoop » Wed Jan 09, 2019 3:52 pm #467964

Grazyn wrote:Design isn't part of development because it's just an open repository where everyone can contribute. The name "project" is misleading


Lol okay hence why we're dicussing how to tweak hygiene's design so it's less shit.

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Re: Hygiene Removal

Postby WarbossLincoln » Wed Jan 09, 2019 4:09 pm #467968

Scottbert wrote:
Qustinnus wrote:i feel like starting your suggestion with "as an aspiring game designer" really useless because it holds as much value to me as all the other suggestions.

I understand that it's generally annoying for critics/players to tell game designers how to do their job; I concede that but thought my suggestions were at least a little better thought out and showed some knowledge of how they might effect the gameplay experience.

Perhaps if you explained what the goal of the hygiene system is, it would make players more understanding and generate more useful suggestions -- as it is, people can only spam 'remove hygiene' or provide suggestions based on guesses.


>I make a feature that's bad because it's unfinished, unrefined, and unbalanced. People have a bad reaction to it and hate it.
>I'm still working on it to improve it since it's still a very early revision.
>Player gives feedback and some suggestions to remediate some of the worst aspects of my rough draft of code.
>FUCK YOU REEEEEEE MY OPINION ON CODE THAT IMPACTS YOUR EXPERIENCE IS ALL THAT MATTERS REEEEEEEE

Don't take people not liking a change you make personally and be pissy about it. Goofball 2.0
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Re: Hygiene Removal

Postby Grazyn » Wed Jan 09, 2019 6:38 pm #467985

Zarniwoop wrote:
Grazyn wrote:Design isn't part of development because it's just an open repository where everyone can contribute. The name "project" is misleading


Lol okay hence why we're dicussing how to tweak hygiene's design so it's less shit.

I mean, anyone can make a PR to tweak how hygiene works, or even remove it, and Qustinnus wouldnt have any say on it, only maintainers. That's what "design isn't part of development" means. So there's no point in inquiring about the "goal" behind this change, or getting angry at Qustinnus like he's supposed to tweak it to fit some non-existant "design".

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Re: Hygiene Removal

Postby DrunkenMatey » Wed Jan 09, 2019 6:47 pm #467988

Having to get naked for showers is clearly going to turn us into an ERP server; just you wait! I already caught two people laying down and rolling around on each other in the showers naked.

on a more serious note:
I like the idea of encouraging people to move around a bit more, not sure how possible this is but, what if showering fully clothed works, it just takes 10 seconds of showering instead of 1.
Definitely reduce the speed at which stink accumulates though. Or just take hygiene out and make people get hungry a lot faster; most rounds I don't even need to eat anything.

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Re: Hygiene Removal

Postby Scottbert » Wed Jan 09, 2019 7:35 pm #467992

An additional bit of feedback now that I know that this system is the reason for all the sick people running around: I play medbay, and it is super concerning to see that disease HUD indicator on so many people. It makes it look like we've had a rogue virologist release multiple diseases on the station. We can't make a vaccine because every stinky person has a different disease. People who come in with these diseases tend to run off without being cured -- that's one thing when there is a single disease outbreak, and we can try to fight it by distributing vaccines and immunizing everyone -- but here, it's a bunch of different diseases, and as soon as we've made a vaccine for one, two or three more have popped up. I could suggest ways to fix this, but see below. In any case, it's a bad experience for medbay players that needs to be addressed.

Qustinnus wrote:The mapping problem isn't my problem, because I'm not going to edit 8 maps, either the maintainers should cull non-maintained maps or the map maintainers should update the maps.
No. You don't get to unilaterally break the game if you're not willing to do the work to fix it. "This feature would be great if other people did stuff" does not make the feature great. They aren't doing the stuff -- you're doing stuff which is making the game better or worse. What you have here is called a 'design constraint'; any change going in immediately needs to work with the maps as-is. If you have a really cool idea that requires map changes, and you're not willing to do them, you're going to need to work with a mapper to implement them. Teamwork, it makes the dream work!

Zarniwoop wrote:I get the impression...

I don't want an impression, I want their reasons. How can we give constructive feedback otherwise? What's bothersome to me is it doesn't seem to have been explained at any point. They leave us to guess at their goals, and then shrug off anything we say as not useful because we don't know what they're trying to do.

Grazyn wrote:I mean, anyone can make a PR to tweak how hygiene works, or even remove it, and Qustinnus wouldnt have any say on it, only maintainers. That's what "design isn't part of development" means. So there's no point in inquiring about the "goal" behind this change, or getting angry at Qustinnus like he's supposed to tweak it to fit some non-existant "design".


True; I don't fully understand the code yet, but if I did I could edit it the same as anyone else. And that would lead to what? In this hypothetical, Qustinnus and I fighting over conflicting versions of hygiene, not talking to eachother, and... I'm not sure how that resolves, does the code keep going back and forth or what?

Anyway, it's true that SS13 isn't like a commercial game with a roadmap for development and a lead designer making decisions. (This is why I felt qualified to make a suggestion. Were this a commercial game, there'd be all sorts of factors I was unaware of, like things that were internally tested and dismissed, or whether they could afford the dev or art or whatever time to deal with a feature and still meet release schedule and budget, etc etc etc. It'd be super annoying of me to make armchair suggestions without being aware of the devteam's exact situation.)

That doesn't mean changes are made at random, though -- anyone who edits the code and adds a feature has a reason. Presumably, they're trying to make the game more fun. 'Fun' isn't the same as 'easy'; Obviously we like a challenge or we wouldn't play such a complex game. I'm not the only one who has identified a possible 'point' to the hygiene system.

But we can't have a useful discussion if the guy making the hygiene changes won't tell us WHY. Then we're just talking at cross-purposes -- he's frustrated because our suggestions go against what he's trying to achieve -- but what we all want is a better game!

So come on, let's have a useful discussion. Qustinnus may or may not be able to achieve his goal -- sometimes, in game design, what you thought would be a fun idea turns out not to be fun once you code and test it. -- But we can't help him find out if his idea is fun or not if he won't tell us what his idea is.

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Re: Hygiene Removal

Postby Chocodemon » Wed Jan 09, 2019 8:49 pm #468002

I think part of the issue with miasma diseases is that they appear too frequently, and are mostly distracting rather than harmful.

I'm not sure whether it's the hygiene or the miasma disease rate contributing more. It also screws over any healing viruses since they have low stats and can be easily overridden.

I hope I wasn't too off topic.

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Re: Hygiene Removal

Postby Denton » Wed Jan 09, 2019 11:19 pm #468028

Qustinnus wrote:The mapping problem isn't my problem, because I'm not going to edit 8 maps, either the maintainers should cull non-maintained maps or the map maintainers should update the maps.

What are you, goofball lite
There are no map maintainers and fixing your shit is really not too much to ask for.
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PostThis post was deleted by TehSteveo on Thu Jan 10, 2019 4:52 am.
Reason: Global Rule 1 - Doesn't add to anything.

PostThis post was deleted by TehSteveo on Thu Jan 10, 2019 4:51 am.
Reason: Not contributing to discussion.

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Re: Hygiene Removal

Postby oranges » Thu Jan 10, 2019 6:58 am #468116

Denton wrote:
Qustinnus wrote:The mapping problem isn't my problem, because I'm not going to edit 8 maps, either the maintainers should cull non-maintained maps or the map maintainers should update the maps.

What are you, goofball lite
There are no map maintainers and fixing your shit is really not too much to ask for.

I warned you guys about having too many maps, but you didn't listen.
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Re: Hygiene Removal

Postby Qustinnus » Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:59 am #468121

why are there people posting as if I murdered their children in this thread. I already said I'll change a variety of the points but if all you have to post is "
You're goof 2" or "this is catgirl revenge" you must be autistic and I won't bother reading your posts because your suggestions are probably as vile as your post in general.

Anyways you can either wait for the improvement PR or start a shitstorm like moodlets but I won't bother listening to any of the retards that can only shit on me.


Also Denton no shit. This is why oranges needs to kill off all the maps that have no people updating them. The coders don't want to edit 7~ maps and then hope nothing conflicts while the PR is up.

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