/tg/Station 13

Hygiene is a pure shit PR, it adds no sort of depth or complexity to the game, its just annoying as fuck to look at. Mood made sense. Hunger made sense. Its fucking an online atmos simulator who the fuck cares about virtual hygiene.

Lets take bets on how long until the server is flooded with even more shitty character gimmicks, this time involving smelling bad. Fuck lizard players probably get turned on by this shit.

If it was added for the "realism" argument, then lets make one gunshot kill/knockout someone. Then it'll be more realistic, right??!

wesoda25 wrote:Hygiene is a pure shit PR, it adds no sort of depth or complexity to the game, its just annoying as fuck to look at. Mood made sense. Hunger made sense. Its fucking an online atmos simulator who the fuck cares about virtual hygiene.

Lets take bets on how long until the server is flooded with even more shitty character gimmicks, this time involving smelling bad. Fuck lizard players probably get turned on by this shit.

If it was added for the "realism" argument, then lets make one gunshot kill/knockout someone. Then it'll be more realistic, right??!

Thought experiments and programming challenges are good, however, generally speaking, if something doesn't add anything tangible to the game, it shouldn't be there. Not even sure what the hygiene does at this point.

Guns (regular calibre pistols) don't automatically incapacitate, unless one is hit in a vital location such as brain or heart. A nicked artery would give one some time before losing consciousness. There are plenty of "off duty brazilian cop" vines, where people get filled up with 9mm fmj and keep running, because of the adrenaline rush.

Shotguns with a right load at a right range against unarmored targets are a whole different story though.

I am not a fan of the PR, it seems a bit more disruptive than encouraging people not to run around covered in blood, primarily because of the "stink" overlay.

It needs to be more subtle, and possibly related to medical instead of mood or miasma. Infection chance increase? Septic shock for being an uncleanly bastard?

I only disagree with the perk that gives you a positive moodlet to being dirty.

I am not a fan of it in its current state

-There are no meaningful ways to interact with this feature. I can't just change clothes or avoid doing certain things to not get dirty (I think the only thing that affects it is being covered in blood?), you just rush to a shower once the overlay pops up

-No immediate negative effects for the user means most people simply ignore it and the station fills with miasma

-The overlay is really distracting

Solutions for the short term:

-Only make hygiene tick down while you're covered in blood and maybe lower it for other events that would make sense (bleeding, being inside smoke, getting splashed with reagents)

-Remove NEET and properly integrate it with mood. Higher chance for the user to catch a disease would be nice.

-Layer the overlay under the mob, slow down the speed and add some transparency

I like it. Bare minimum upkeep, like eating food. Add thirst too Qustinus, all your prs are top notch, minus the etheshits.

Maybe get rid of the current visual effect and have the moodlet face with some stink lines to indicate and if someone examines you itll say you stink. Could keep the miasma.

Lumbermancer wrote:I like it. Bare minimum upkeep, like eating food. Add thirst too Qustinus, all your prs are top notch, minus the etheshits.

this is the most controversial opinion ive ever seen where someone likes all my PRs EXCEPT ethereals. thats like a complete opposite of almost every players opinion kek.



anyways,

it literaly doesnt affect you except it adds a sprite, anyone who is triggered by this can get the same argument catplayers used on me when I rallied for catpeople removal support


"its just a few pixels bro"

Some pointless pixels. Its a really stupid addition that has no relevance to game play whatsoever. It makes people have these annoying, gross looking effects, and for what?
Literally what is the point of the PR.

wesoda25 wrote:no relevance to game play whatsoever.

>affects the gameplay
>no relevance to gameplay
what did wesoda25 mean by this?

wesoda25 wrote:Some pointless pixels. Its a really stupid addition that has no relevance to game play whatsoever. It makes people have these annoying, gross looking effects, and for what?
Literally what is the point of the PR.

arent you the loser that always complains mood affects you too much? you really lack an argument.

Powergamers Some players are triggered my minor inconveniences that are not under their direct control.

le green smoke has arrived

Lumbermancer wrote:

wesoda25 wrote:no relevance to game play whatsoever.

>affects the gameplay
>no relevance to gameplay
what did wesoda25 mean by this?

What I mean to say is that it adds nothing of value to gameplay.

Qustinnus wrote:

wesoda25 wrote:Some pointless pixels. Its a really stupid addition that has no relevance to game play whatsoever. It makes people have these annoying, gross looking effects, and for what?
Literally what is the point of the PR.

arent you the loser that always complains mood affects you too much? you really lack an argument.

I like mood, its pretty miniscule in terms of effects, but has great potential, which is currently being used via traits and what not. If you’re so quick to say I don’t have an argument, then could I ask what yours is? Why is hygiene a positive change to our code? How does it encourage good roleplay?

Its an online space game, with futuristic items, ideas, etc. Paranoia and adventures are the name of the game. I don’t think the concept of people smelling bad fits that picture well. This shit is up Hippies ally, not ours.

wesoda25 wrote:What I mean to say is that it adds nothing of value to gameplay.

wesoda25 wrote:I like mood, its pretty miniscule in terms of effects, but has great potential

But it's part of the moodlet system? Does hunger not add anything of value to gameplay?

It's a "meh" feature. Being stinky doesn't really do anything at all except add a sprite, and it's trivial to remove anyway. The best case scenario for this feature would be someone hiding in a locker and stealing shit off people when they remove their jumpsuit to take a shower. Otherwise, it adds very little. The empty carb of PRs.

My one complaint is that the sprite is fairly noisy for how little it effects things. It's more in-your-face than being on fire. I think it could be changed to stank lines and would be better off.

I mean sprite could go in the current form, but doesn't it add negative moodlet?

Lumbermancer wrote:

wesoda25 wrote:What I mean to say is that it adds nothing of value to gameplay.

wesoda25 wrote:I like mood, its pretty miniscule in terms of effects, but has great potential

But it's part of the moodlet system? Does hunger not add anything of value to gameplay?

Be hungry, be sad (good)
Kill someone, be sad (good)
Take a shower, be happy (good)
Have a drink, be happy (good)
Don’t take a shower for 5 minutes, LOL NOW YOU GOT UGLY ASS GREEN SPRITES COMING OFF FROM YOU (bad)

Hunger is interesting and makes sense in the ss13 atmosphere. It allows for the creation of cool and fun dishes, spaces signature cuisine. No one gives a fuck about whether you smell bad in the game. It adds nothing of interest, I thought it was another meme PR until it actually got merged.

Even if the spriting was changed it’d still be a shit PR, how the fuck does smelling bad improve game experience.

I always wanted for thirst to be added, for Bartender to be more important, like Cook. Would it be better?

Unless you can think of a really neat way of diversifying thirst enough to not just be hunger but with water, no. A lot of survival games either have a really simple thirst requirement that you can more or less fill by just eating food anyway or doesn't have it at all.

Not with water foo, with booze. The space station way.

Greatly underestimating the effect of miasma generation btw

Yeah, it doesn't affect you directly until you lose the miasma lottery and get sick with no fault of your own, exactly because everyone's being told hygiene is pointless fluff that can be ignored

Lumbermancer wrote:I always wanted for thirst to be added, for Bartender to be more important, like Cook. Would it be better?

To be fair, drinking gives positive moodlets, so it's similar to cook already.

But not drinking doesn't give you negative moodlet. How can you cope.

Lumbermancer wrote:But not drinking doesn't give you negative moodlet. How can you cope.

Alcoholic (or just addiction in general) has been a trait I’ve been looking forward to forever. It’ll add more use to chemist/bartender.

I wouldn't mind the feature and would probably actually enjoy it if it was rarely occurring and hard to trigger (e.g. eating onions makes you stinky). But having it happen to most of the crew every round makes me dislike it.

oh i wondered what that was since it looked like a green version of the necropolis curse lol

if it got polished sure

also remove NEET beyond getting social welfare because that's funny (maybe make them get smelly faster)

i can do what wevil said for NEET.

anyways its the fact that the sprite makes you look like an idiot. and you should just bully people who dont shower in-game the same way you should bully people who wear really dumb clothing or run around naked. changing it to for example being a thing that you only lose hygiene if youre covered in blood, is a thing that'd be fairly acceptable if someone PRed it, I'd prefer lowering the drain rate first though

Lumbermancer wrote:I always wanted for thirst to be added, for Bartender to be more important, like Cook. Would it be better?

Not really. Thirst is only ever interesting in survival-themed games where water is scarce and has to be carefully managed.

Not water, booze! Bartender is a purely rp job, but people just don't drink at all. At best you will get 2-3 people come and ask for specific drinks. At worst some shittlers will throw all your pre-preppred drinks around breaking glasses. If people had to get a drink now and then, they will come more often. And with this system you could play around with giving all drinks minor special effects! And preference quirks - here comes Schlomo Gaskin again, let me start mixing that Manhattan and Fringe Weaver!

It's not about survival at all, it's not supposed to debilitate you. It's about making Bartender more fun to play, fostering basic rp interactions, and introducing another MINOR upkeep mechanic. I'm saying minor, because you can see from food, the hunger isn't that bad. It doesn't hinder you that much. But people come to the kitchen and eat all the stuff you make. Cook is fun!

Lumbermancer wrote:Not water, booze! Bartender is a purely rp job, but people just don't drink at all. At best you will get 2-3 people come and ask for specific drinks. At worst some shittlers will throw all your pre-preppred drinks around breaking glasses. If people had to get a drink now and then, they will come more often. And with this system you could play around with giving all drinks minor special effects! And preference quirks - here comes Schlomo Gaskin again, let me start mixing that Manhattan and Fringe Weaver!

It's not about survival at all, it's not supposed to debilitate you. It's about making Bartender more fun to play, fostering basic rp interactions, and introducing another MINOR upkeep mechanic. I'm saying minor, because you can see from food, the hunger isn't that bad. It doesn't hinder you that much. But people come to the kitchen and eat all the stuff you make. Cook is fun!

Making it a need isn’t necessary, or good. It’d be better suited as a trait.

Qustinnus wrote:you should just bully people who dont shower in-game the same way you should bully people who wear really dumb clothing or run around naked.

One could argue that adding piss and shit, so we can bully people who make a mess in their pants, would make sense if that's the point of stink overlays This would add more use to toilets and urinals just like how stink overlays add more use to showers. It would also be the worst idea ever and no sane man would do it.

Usually people who wear really dumb clothes or run around naked still look like they fit in instead of looking like they're being fucking gassed by sterotypical poison smoke. It needs to be more transparent so it is not as fucking dumb as it looks. This isn't like BoH hellholes where some people drop in and go "this shit breaks immersion and is retarded" since that's more rare compared to stink overlays (even if only possible from being bloody). You can escape the BoH or paper simplemobs, but you can't escape that fucking green gas.

also god bless anyone who is in an away mission, on lavaland, or any location where there are no showers. you're just fucked

The sprite is obnoxious and far too obtrusive for a feature that has so little impact. This absolutely needs changing and downsizing unless there are plans to make the effect more significant so the conveyance factor of "Hey, you're stinky, better do something about it right now because it's important for X reason" actually exists.

I still don't know what miasma actually does besides give an occasional "unpleasant smell in the air" message? Related, morgue trays really need to contain miasma because in longer rounds the morgue becomes a miasma hotbed.

As for the stinkiness being improved on, maybe if it were tied in some intrinstic way to the medical system it could fit and have a purpose. Being smelly for extended periods raising the chance to be infected when injured, necessitating some medbay-exclusive treatment to remove the infection? A chance to generate a disease on a smelly person, with escalating symptoms the longer they remain unclean? If there are plans to somehow integrate it into the medical system, there's potential for it, but right now it feels like a pointless distraction with a very obnoxious sprite.

Also all it takes to smell good again is literally standing under a shower and toggling it on/off, there's no time needed to wash away the smell, no need to undress for it (a good thing, no ERP in showers pls), no real gameplay added beyond a pointless box to tick in character upkeep, which would be ignored entirely except the sprite, again, is annoying to look at.

Ispiria wrote:The sprite is obnoxious and far too obtrusive for a feature that has so little impact. This absolutely needs changing and downsizing unless there are plans to make the effect more significant so the conveyance factor of "Hey, you're stinky, better do something about it right now because it's important for X reason" actually exists.

I still don't know what miasma actually does besides give an occasional "unpleasant smell in the air" message? Related, morgue trays really need to contain miasma because in longer rounds the morgue becomes a miasma hotbed.

As for the stinkiness being improved on, maybe if it were tied in some intrinstic way to the medical system it could fit and have a purpose. Being smelly for extended periods raising the chance to be infected when injured, necessitating some medbay-exclusive treatment to remove the infection? A chance to generate a disease on a smelly person, with escalating symptoms the longer they remain unclean? If there are plans to somehow integrate it into the medical system, there's potential for it, but right now it feels like a pointless distraction with a very obnoxious sprite.

Also all it takes to smell good again is literally standing under a shower and toggling it on/off, there's no time needed to wash away the smell, no need to undress for it (a good thing, no ERP in showers pls), no real gameplay added beyond a pointless box to tick in character upkeep, which would be ignored entirely except the sprite, again, is annoying to look at.

I like how half of your suggestion is just a re iteration of the effects of miasma right after you say you don't know the effects of miasma


Also you clearly hzvnt looked at the pr because you got your info wrong on several things so replying to this is a waste of my time. Can people that post in coding feedback look at PRs they complain about or are they just here to leave silly posts

Ispiria wrote: I still don't know what miasma actually does besides give an occasional "unpleasant smell in the air" message? Related, morgue trays really need to contain miasma because in longer rounds the morgue becomes a miasma hotbed.

Morgue trays and bodybags stop miasma generation, at least it should if the code isnt bugged.

Real talk, Qustinnus:

What do the lavaland/space ruin people do if they don't have a shower? What about those away missions where the gateway is at the end?

While people could defeat the fun of away missions and powergame through, I am still curious on what those poor bastards without showers on lavaland are supposed to do. Raid the mining base/station? Ancient station people don't even have a bathroom, I think.

Qustinnus wrote: I like how half of your suggestion is just a re iteration of the effects of miasma right after you say you don't know the effects of miasma

It was one paragraph out of four, and the smallest paragraph at that. That's hardly what I, or any person without personal investment against criticism, would call "half".

Qustinnus wrote: Also you clearly hzvnt looked at the pr because you got your info wrong on several things

I'm not a coder, don't know how to read code, and generally don't have time to go over every pr made and can only speak from my own experience when encountering new mechanics that affect every player in a round persistently. I apologize if this is somehow a problem if your eyes, but this is sort of why anyone developing new features for a game will generally rely on good design to convey the feature's intended purpose to the players. Them failing to do so is not the player's fault.

Qustinnus wrote:so replying to this is a waste of my time.

And yet you replied anyway without addressing any of the actual suggestions made - see all three of the paragraphs I wrote that weren't personally objectionable to you.

Qustinnus wrote:Can people that post in coding feedback look at PRs they complain about or are they just here to leave silly posts

Can people that submit PRs make the design and intention clear to the players or are they here to shove shit through and tell us to swallow it

Seriously, I gave you at least two specific examples of scenarios wherein this mechanic could be useful, but you dismissed them completely for reasons best known to yourself. If this is how you respond to feedback and criticism I'm very disappointed.

miasma actually has a gameplay effect instead of being just a bad sprite.

Inhaling miasma has a chance to infect you with a randomly generated virus.

Ispiria wrote:

Qustinnus wrote: I like how half of your suggestion is just a re iteration of the effects of miasma right after you say you don't know the effects of miasma

It was one paragraph out of four, and the smallest paragraph at that. That's hardly what I, or any person without personal investment against criticism, would call "half".

Qustinnus wrote: Also you clearly hzvnt looked at the pr because you got your info wrong on several things

I'm not a coder, don't know how to read code, and generally don't have time to go over every pr made and can only speak from my own experience when encountering new mechanics that affect every player in a round persistently. I apologize if this is somehow a problem if your eyes, but this is sort of why anyone developing new features for a game will generally rely on good design to convey the feature's intended purpose to the players. Them failing to do so is not the player's fault.

Qustinnus wrote:so replying to this is a waste of my time.

And yet you replied anyway without addressing any of the actual suggestions made - see all three of the paragraphs I wrote that weren't personally objectionable to you.

Qustinnus wrote:Can people that post in coding feedback look at PRs they complain about or are they just here to leave silly posts

Can people that submit PRs make the design and intention clear to the players or are they here to shove shit through and tell us to swallow it

Seriously, I gave you at least two specific examples of scenarios wherein this mechanic could be useful, but you dismissed them completely for reasons best known to yourself. If this is how you respond to feedback and criticism I'm very disappointed.

1. your suggestion wasn't your entire post. the second part of your post is the suggestion which means half of your suggestion is a description of miasma behavior which shows you are too uninformed about the systems in the game to discuss them, before you cry that I should've made this clear in the game; miasma isn't my code.

2. you can read the pr body which contains this info, or optionally, the changelog. who the fuck said you need to go check my code you brainlet.

3. because im sick of people like you crying about PRs without even bothering to read up on the feature itself and thus being uninformed. I'm not here to cater to you all day so if you're too dumb to read a PR body of about 50 words then why should I bother listening to what you have to say.

4. its in the pr body. its clear as fuck, go read it.

Ayy Lemoh wrote:Real talk, Qustinnus:

What do the lavaland/space ruin people do if they don't have a shower? What about those away missions where the gateway is at the end?

While people could defeat the fun of away missions and powergame through, I am still curious on what those poor bastards without showers on lavaland are supposed to do. Raid the mining base/station? Ancient station people don't even have a bathroom, I think.

portable showers or some way to clean yourself could be cool I suppose

Mickyan wrote:I am not a fan of it in its current state

-There are no meaningful ways to interact with this feature. I can't just change clothes or avoid doing certain things to not get dirty (I think the only thing that affects it is being covered in blood?), you just rush to a shower once the overlay pops up

not true, if you are covered in blood you will get dirty faster, so changing clothes prevents you from getting dirty fast.

wesoda25 wrote:Fuck lizard players probably get turned on by this shit.

lizards don't sweat
lizards don't smell
lizards are very clean and pure
delet this

Qustinnus wrote:

Mickyan wrote:I am not a fan of it in its current state

-There are no meaningful ways to interact with this feature. I can't just change clothes or avoid doing certain things to not get dirty (I think the only thing that affects it is being covered in blood?), you just rush to a shower once the overlay pops up

not true, if you are covered in blood you will get dirty faster, so changing clothes prevents you from getting dirty fast.

Not really meaningful since it's far easier and more efficient to just walk under a shower and changing clothes does nothing unless you're already covered in blood

The thing is I like moodlets because they push people just a little bit towards playing in a more sensible manner. I'd be entirely on board with this if hygiene only went down while covered in blood and whatnot instead of constantly going down but as it stands none of the people who would normally merrily walk around covered in blood are going to give a damn about this because it doesn't affect them personally, it just makes everyone else's life just a little bit more miserable thanks to the miasma buildup.
For everyone else it's just extra annoying busywork.

allowing you to bucket splash yourself with water would be better if it stays.
i should be playing tgstation not sims

Mickyan wrote:

Qustinnus wrote:

Mickyan wrote:I am not a fan of it in its current state

-There are no meaningful ways to interact with this feature. I can't just change clothes or avoid doing certain things to not get dirty (I think the only thing that affects it is being covered in blood?), you just rush to a shower once the overlay pops up

not true, if you are covered in blood you will get dirty faster, so changing clothes prevents you from getting dirty fast.

Not really meaningful since it's far easier and more efficient to just walk under a shower and changing clothes does nothing unless you're already covered in blood

The thing is I like moodlets because they push people just a little bit towards playing in a more sensible manner. I'd be entirely on board with this if hygiene only went down while covered in blood and whatnot instead of constantly going down but as it stands none of the people who would normally merrily walk around covered in blood are going to give a damn about this because it doesn't affect them personally, it just makes everyone else's life just a little bit more miserable thanks to the miasma buildup.
For everyone else it's just extra annoying busywork.

agreed so I'll probably remove the default trickle

seems okay

Do you get warning before the greensprite?

I actually like it a lot mechanically as it's one of the few things that can cause a job like chef/botanist/chemist to leave their little safe hut for a bit and give assassins a chance.

It needs to negatively effect the person who is dirty more to be honest. while it is funny to stun baton stank assistants as the janitor and force them to take a shower, it eventually gets rather old.

This is like moodlets when it was first added, janky but a good foundation for roleplay encouraging mechanics.

4dplanner wrote:Do you get warning before the greensprite?

no but i realized i should add this and I will add warning messages for the player