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Re: Why was #42386 merged?

PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 2:19 pm
by Timonk
Kierany9 wrote:anybody who started playing botany after the introduction of the plant dna manipulator has no right to post on this thread

r/gatekeeping

Re: Why was #42386 merged?

PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 3:35 pm
by DemonFiren
Timonk wrote:
Kierany9 wrote:anybody who started playing botany after the introduction of the plant dna manipulator has no right to post on this thread

r/gatekeeping

>unironic plebbitfaggotry
>on /tg/station
how low has this place fallen

Re: Why was #42386 merged?

PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 3:38 pm
by Timonk
DemonFiren wrote:
Timonk wrote:
Kierany9 wrote:anybody who started playing botany after the introduction of the plant dna manipulator has no right to post on this thread

r/gatekeeping

>unironic plebbitfaggotry
>on /tg/station
how low has this place fallen

oof that hurt

Re: Why was #42386 merged?

PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 6:48 pm
by Qbmax32
Timonk wrote:
DemonFiren wrote:
Timonk wrote:
Kierany9 wrote:anybody who started playing botany after the introduction of the plant dna manipulator has no right to post on this thread

r/gatekeeping

>unironic plebbitfaggotry
>on /tg/station
how low has this place fallen

oof that hurt



Ignore him demonfiren is like that old uncle who shows up to family gatherings constantly talking about the good ‘ol days to anyone who’ll listen.

Re: Why was #42386 merged?

PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 7:10 pm
by DemonFiren
Qbmax32 wrote:
Timonk wrote:
DemonFiren wrote:
Timonk wrote:
Kierany9 wrote:anybody who started playing botany after the introduction of the plant dna manipulator has no right to post on this thread

r/gatekeeping

>unironic plebbitfaggotry
>on /tg/station
how low has this place fallen

oof that hurt



Ignore him demonfiren is like that old uncle who shows up to family gatherings constantly talking about the good ‘ol days to anyone who’ll listen.

t. redditor

Re: Why was #42386 merged?

PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 7:37 pm
by Cobby
Kierany9 wrote:anybody who started playing botany after the introduction of the plant dna manipulator has no right to post on this thread

Re: Why was #42386 merged?

PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 7:59 pm
by Darkgenerallord
explosive plants were awful and now they're slightly less awful

Re: Why was #42386 merged?

PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 8:10 pm
by wesoda25
DGL rose from the grave to tell you salty botanists how stupid you are.

Re: Why was #42386 merged?

PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 8:17 pm
by Timonk
wesoda25 wrote:DGL rose from the grave to tell you salty botanists how stupid you are.

Was he dead?

Re: Why was #42386 merged?

PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 8:36 pm
by Vaina
Lumbermancer wrote:That's it, we've lost the game to the pvp crowd.

You didn't watch the video, did you.

Re: Why was #42386 merged?

PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 8:50 pm
by kevinz000
Kierany9 wrote:anybody who started playing botany after the introduction of the plant dna manipulator has no right to post on this thread

Re: Why was #42386 merged?

PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 8:51 pm
by kevinz000
4dplanner is great tbh

Re: Why was #42386 merged?

PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 8:57 pm
by Vaina
MisterPerson wrote:Buffs are fine, but you can't only buff or you run into power creep and complexity creep problems. For example, in that video you posted, they mention fighting games offering many fighters with custom supers and modes and whatever other nonsense, but you gotta realize, that shit is confusing for a new player and existing players who had the game change out from under them. Don't forget the saps who had to, you know, actually make all that crap and the people after who have to implement other stuff with all the existing features in mind. And the end result may or may not be a better game, especially if there's obvious balance problems. After all, if you only have fixed amount of development and polish time, the more features you add, the less polished they'll be. So at some point, too many features results in a less enjoyable game. Think of it like a Laffer curve for game development.

I'm just saying sometimes nerfs and removals are necessary, even if they're unpopular. I'm not saying it was necessary in this exact case, I'm just strongly disputing the notion that "nerfs are bad and to be avoided" which is just nonsense.

Fair argument! It all boils down how these problems are dealt with on a case-to-case basis. This isn't a crippling blow to botany as many make it out to be, but it is a precedent for many potential nerfs to come--that's why I argue against it. SS13's asymmetry is something to be embraced, not shunned.

Re: Why was #42386 merged?

PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 9:12 pm
by kevinz000
At a certain point it gets too asymmetrical.
A subdepartment having massively overpowered things is not fun for anyone not playing it.

Re: Why was #42386 merged?

PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 9:18 pm
by oranges
an argument predicated on us not responding when one department gets overly broken is not one that I'm ever going to give much weight.

If people like imsxz tell me something is overpowered I'm going to listen to them because their track record speaks for itself.

In general I intend to push more nerfs than buffs to things, because I am a firm believer in anti powercreep and I'm not always going to be willing to trade for related changes or buffs, no amount of reddit threads are really going to change that either.

If you want to help, you can stay ahead of the curve by noticing departments that have overly powerful things and making pr's to modify them before someone like 4dplanner rolls up.

Re: Why was #42386 merged?

PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 9:35 pm
by Timonk
kevinz000 wrote:
Kierany9 wrote:anybody who started playing botany after the introduction of the plant dna manipulator has no right to post on this thread

Does that mean that I have no right on an opinion of this trait? Seems kinda dumb

Re: Why was #42386 merged?

PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 9:53 pm
by Kierany9
Vaina wrote:
Lumbermancer wrote:That's it, we've lost the game to the pvp crowd.

You didn't watch the video, did you.


i love core-a-gaming as much as the next guy but SS13 is a roleplaying game, not a 2d fighting game, things should not be balanced around every role being able to meme as hard as possible on people.

Timonk wrote:
Kierany9 wrote:anybody who started playing botany after the introduction of the plant dna manipulator has no right to post on this thread

Does that mean that I have no right on an opinion of this trait? Seems kinda dumb


my post was a shitpost targeting any angry botany mains talking about how their department is useless now/is going to be made useless, mostly because traits didn't exist before the dna manipulator. the mean gene botany machine was possibly the biggest buff that any department has ever received in years and anybody complaining about it being nerfed now obviously doesn't understand what botany was like back then or why people played it.

the plant dna manipulator has turned botany mains from the chillest dudes on the station who pick that role because they want to chill knowing that they get nothing except some dank rollies and maybe the eternal gratitude of the chef and/or clown into the sweatiest powergaming faggots around that break into chem every round to steal shit, feel entitled to everything while providing nothing even to the one job they're supposed to provide for, and throw a tantrum whenever they can't get their griefplants and i hate it.

Re: Why was #42386 merged?

PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 10:13 pm
by DemonFiren
tl;dr it did to botany what lavaland did to mining

Re: Why was #42386 merged?

PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2019 12:07 am
by Vaina
Kierany9 wrote:the mean gene botany machine was possibly the biggest buff that any department has ever received in years

>not the r&d revamp with effortless button pushing and shared minerals + dep lathes

shiggity

Re: Why was #42386 merged?

PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2019 12:09 am
by duckay
Kierany9 wrote:anybody who started playing botany after the introduction of the plant dna manipulator has no right to post on this thread

i played botany tenfold and i supported the pr until i realized well wouldn't it be better to just hardcode nitroglycerin and other explosive solutions out of plants?
its not the end of the world but it was a sloppy way of doing it tbf

Re: Why was #42386 merged?

PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2019 12:21 am
by Kierany9
Vaina wrote:
Kierany9 wrote:the mean gene botany machine was possibly the biggest buff that any department has ever received in years

>not the r&d revamp with effortless button pushing and shared minerals + dep lathes

shiggity


true facts

may they get the rope too

Re: Why was #42386 merged?

PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2019 12:27 am
by 4dplanner
duckay wrote:
Kierany9 wrote:anybody who started playing botany after the introduction of the plant dna manipulator has no right to post on this thread

i played botany tenfold and i supported the pr until i realized well wouldn't it be better to just hardcode nitroglycerin and other explosive solutions out of plants?
its not the end of the world but it was a sloppy way of doing it tbf


No, because injecting into the plants would still have been too powerful.

Re: Why was #42386 merged?

PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2019 12:34 am
by 4dplanner
Separated chemicals also lead to a number of other broken plants - omega weed smoke for (iirc) around 700 u + 140u smoke solution, teslium tomatoes, etc etc. Removing separated chemicals allowed me to hit all of these at once.

Re: Why was #42386 merged?

PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2019 1:36 am
by Yakumo_Chen
Toxins is overpowered (and single tanks need removed) but at least when you see an atmos tech holding dufflebag and a plasma tank and dragging an air pump is probably going to kill you. Valve tanks also don't fit in backpacks and have a sprite that is instantly recognizable

When you see the botanist covering the floor in cabbages and tossing tomatoes at people, there is no obvious way to know he is out to kill you likely until people start screaming on the radio about it or you slipped on an avocado and died in 4 seconds for no discernable reason.

And again. You're comparing large deadly items to one hit kill items that you can put 400 of in your backpack at once

Re: Why was #42386 merged?

PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2019 2:01 am
by PKPenguin321
Vaina wrote:
Kierany9 wrote:the mean gene botany machine was possibly the biggest buff that any department has ever received in years

>not the r&d revamp with effortless button pushing and shared minerals + dep lathes

shiggity

>he's too new to have experienced oldsci
ishygddt

Re: Why was #42386 merged?

PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2019 2:18 am
by Cobby
Remember when people just played botany to grow plants peacefully?

Also every interaction born from sep chems can be recreated using grenade assemblies you can make inhouse along with an infinite supply of 50u beakers.

Re: Why was #42386 merged?

PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2019 2:23 am
by Shadowflame909
Kierany9 wrote:the mean gene botany machine was possibly the biggest buff that any department has ever received in years


I'm imagining the PR now where someone removes it and I complain about how they could of instead just made it a late-game RND research path.

Then after that, I imagine someone removing death-nettles and every deadly weapon Botany can make with UM and I complain about how that neuters the department by making sec have to worry about it less. But this PR ultimately gets denied because the maintainers agree with me albeit for different reasons.

Why do I think about stuff like this?

Re: Why was #42386 merged?

PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2019 2:34 am
by Cobby
The only thing I'm okay with culling is things like cryoplants that beat chemistry byond the reagent generation aspect.

Nettles and spicy-lemons are okay since both are well understood to be naughty plants. Having a cute little apple delete you on throw is not.

Re: Why was #42386 merged?

PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2019 2:40 am
by 4dplanner
I've been thinking of making a PR that

A) removes the gene machine
B) makes some plants a bit more special, because things like explosive lemons/death nettles/glowshrooms/killer tomatoes are cool.

However it'd be on indefinite delay until my crippled attempts at spriting form up.

Re: Why was #42386 merged?

PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2019 2:55 am
by Karp
Denton wrote:Main issue is that even low power explosives will knock you out and delimb.

I dunno if removing separated chemicals was the optimal move to nerf it though, explosive(potassium included here i guess)/acidic/incindiary chems could just disable the trait to allow for some more interesting and wacky chemical mix plants

I say this as someone who fucking despises botany for being complete asscancer

tbh though explosives overall need a nerf or need to be rare enough to justify their strength but that's my opinion

Re: Why was #42386 merged?

PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2019 4:48 am
by Dr_bee
Another good botany nerf would be to have plant size be a gene and have plant size be related to the max amount of chems in it.

Sure you can make gigantic melons that are slippery and inject you with toxin, but you cant carry around 50 of them anymore because they become bulky if you make em big enough. It would give botany similar restrictions to toxins bombs in that way.

I think the DNA machine was a good change overall but it really has been poorly balanced. The DNA machine actually let botanists create things instead of it being an RNG snoozefest.

Re: Why was #42386 merged?

PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2019 6:39 am
by Cobby
I don't think you can make explosive plants anymore except when the plant is literally made to be explosive post the PR in OP.

Obv can still grenade run.

Re: Why was #42386 merged?

PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2019 6:52 pm
by Timonk
4dplanner wrote:I've been thinking of making a PR that

A) removes the gene machine
B) makes some plants a bit more special, because things like explosive lemons/death nettles/glowshrooms/killer tomatoes are cool.

However it'd be on indefinite delay until my crippled attempts at spriting form up.

Please stop making Botany Boring. Removing the Gene machine is literally a step backward and makes botany 100% more boring since you cant fucking modify plants and you're stuck with lame plants like Ambrosia Gaia without Parennial Growth(which sucks by the way if you ever played botany)

Re: Why was #42386 merged?

PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2019 8:25 pm
by Kierany9
Timonk wrote:
4dplanner wrote:I've been thinking of making a PR that

A) removes the gene machine
B) makes some plants a bit more special, because things like explosive lemons/death nettles/glowshrooms/killer tomatoes are cool.

However it'd be on indefinite delay until my crippled attempts at spriting form up.

Please stop making Botany Boring. Removing the Gene machine is literally a step backward and makes botany 100% more boring since you cant fucking modify plants and you're stuck with lame plants like Ambrosia Gaia without Parennial Growth(which sucks by the way if you ever played botany)


this thread makes my point for me

Re: Why was #42386 merged?

PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2019 1:07 am
by oranges
I mean people who play with an absurdly overpowered thing are going to obviously be confused or hurt when it's removed.

Doesn't mean I won't do it though

Re: Why was #42386 merged?

PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2019 1:39 am
by Floiven
I've always disliked the upgrading trays mechanic with earthsblood, utilizing the hose system to hook up trays to some sort of nutrient/pesticide/water system that you have to refill (but can upgrade to go for longer without needing it) would make more sense imo. Side effect of that would be removing earth plots planted with gaia for the crew near key spots like medbay though.

Re: Why was #42386 merged?

PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2019 4:02 am
by Dr_bee
Floiven wrote:I've always disliked the upgrading trays mechanic with earthsblood, utilizing the hose system to hook up trays to some sort of nutrient/pesticide/water system that you have to refill (but can upgrade to go for longer without needing it) would make more sense imo. Side effect of that would be removing earth plots planted with gaia for the crew near key spots like medbay though.


Yeah Gaia trays need to be removed, or at least restricted to only applying to dirt trays.

You can already get plants you dont have to watch by upgrading the trays, linking them, and giving them the weed adaptation trait. Making immortal plants require a bit more work would be better.

Earthsblood is still a stupidly powerful healing chem that is easily mixed with mannitol.

Re: Why was #42386 merged?

PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2019 9:50 am
by Timonk
Dr_bee wrote:Yeah Gaia trays need to be removed, or at least restricted to only applying to dirt trays.


Gaia pots are useful if you have to get something and you don't want your plants fucking dying.

Dr_bee wrote:
and giving them the weed adaptation trait.


That's right! That's why we need the gene injector!

Re: Why was #42386 merged?

PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2019 2:11 pm
by Dr_bee
Timonk wrote:
Dr_bee wrote:Yeah Gaia trays need to be removed, or at least restricted to only applying to dirt trays.


Gaia pots are useful if you have to get something and you don't want your plants fucking dying.


Gaia is a stupidly easy way to keep plants alive. It trivializes the only real busywork of the job. You can make plants that take 40 minutes to die with proper tray upgrades and genes.

I am not advocating removal of the gene editor. The editor is great. Im advocating removing a plant that removes half of the job.

Re: Why was #42386 merged?

PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2019 9:22 pm
by Anuv
What the fuck is happening does anyone even play this game you can't find a single botanist when pop dips below 60 and even the most powergamey results are a joke

Re: Why was #42386 merged?

PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2019 5:36 am
by Timonk
Anuv wrote:What the fuck is happening does anyone even play this game you can't find a single botanist when pop dips below 60 and even the most powergamey results are a joke

I fully agree with this except that almost every botanist under 60 pop isn't really noticeable because if it's 30 or 40 pop i have at least 1 co-worker as botanist.

Re: Why was #42386 merged?

PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2019 7:08 am
by obscolene
Kierany9 wrote:anybody who started playing botany after the introduction of the plant dna manipulator has no right to post on this thread

Re: Why was #42386 merged?

PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2019 10:44 am
by Tlaltecuhtli
4dplanner wrote:I've been thinking of making a PR that

A) removes the gene machine
B) makes some plants a bit more special, because things like explosive lemons/death nettles/glowshrooms/killer tomatoes are cool.

However it'd be on indefinite delay until my crippled attempts at spriting form up.


you can always take sprites from other repos, i do it every time when i need a "new sprite"

Re: Why was #42386 merged?

PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2019 2:35 pm
by WarbossLincoln
Botany has had way more power to ruin rounds than any other department, including security and engineering. Not sad to see them start to get nerfed.

Kierany9 wrote:anybody who started playing botany after the introduction of the plant dna manipulator has no right to post on this thread


Does it count if the only time you've ever played botany was back when deathnettles were the only deadly thing they could make? Aside from begging admins for gatfruit seeds.

Re: Why was #42386 merged?

PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2019 3:09 pm
by somerandomguy
>begging admins for gatfruit
xenobio

Re: Why was #42386 merged?

PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2019 3:11 pm
by WarbossLincoln
xenobio can definitely ruin things but I think it's far easier to do with botany. It's also policed far less. Releasing 200 bananas that spray lube when you step on them is usually a "prank" unless the same botanist does it repeatedly. If a scientist starts spamming gold slime monsters as a non antag they're gonna get bwoinked.

Re: Why was #42386 merged?

PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2019 6:08 pm
by somerandomguy
No like
Use xenobio to get gatfruit
You can get them from silver slime cores