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Why was #42386 merged?

PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2019 7:18 am
by Timonk
Why was https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/42386 Merged? It literally has 30 thumb downs and only 9 or so thumbs up? Yet orange man merged it.

Re: Why was #42386 merged?

PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2019 7:29 am
by Vaina
Chemistry is getting castrated and there's nothing we can do about it. Give up while you can.

Re: Why was #42386 merged?

PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2019 8:14 am
by PKPenguin321
first day, huh?

Re: Why was #42386 merged?

PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2019 8:41 am
by Luke Cox
Because coderbus clearly knows how to play the game better than you despite hardly ever playing, you fucking plebian

Re: Why was #42386 merged?

PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2019 7:22 pm
by somerandomguy
How the hell does 4dnerfer have 29 gbp

Re: Why was #42386 merged?

PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2019 9:34 pm
by subject217
because the removal tag doesn't have a gbp cost

Re: Why was #42386 merged?

PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2019 9:38 pm
by oranges
why would it.

And the PR was merged because 4dplanners argument for why it should be merged made sense.

Re: Why was #42386 merged?

PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2019 10:14 pm
by Lumbermancer
Made sense to whom?

Re: Why was #42386 merged?

PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2019 10:28 pm
by SaveVatznick
Vaina wrote:Chemistry is getting castrated and there's nothing we can do about it. Give up while you can.


It was castrated a while ago when they changed how chems were packed into plants/max capacity and removed custom nettles. This change just removes even more of the fun stuff you used to be able to do with the reagents you have available.
I'm waiting until they remove hypodermic prickles because "I notice I die to those a lot after we got rid of bomb plants"

Luke Cox wrote:Because coderbus clearly knows how to play the game better than you despite hardly ever playing, you fucking plebian

Re: Why was #42386 merged?

PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2019 10:45 pm
by Timonk
Luke Cox wrote:Because coderbus clearly knows how to play the game better than you despite hardly ever playing, you fucking plebian


I don't think it should ever be like that.

Re: Why was #42386 merged?

PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2019 11:11 pm
by wesoda25
SaveVatznick wrote:
Vaina wrote:Chemistry is getting castrated and there's nothing we can do about it. Give up while you can.


It was castrated a while ago when they changed how chems were packed into plants/max capacity and removed custom nettles. This change just removes even more of the fun stuff you used to be able to do with the reagents you have available.
I'm waiting until they remove hypodermic prickles because "I notice I die to those a lot after we got rid of bomb plants"

Luke Cox wrote:Because coderbus clearly knows how to play the game better than you despite hardly ever playing, you fucking plebian

Holy fucking shit it’s almost as if things that are overpowered and put you at a significant advantage over others despite minimal work aren’t fair and get removed. What the heck????? Mods?!????

By your argument current singletank bombs should stay because it’s fun for me to bomb the station into oblivion after 5 minutes of work. If its fun for me, its fun for everyone else, right?

Re: Why was #42386 merged?

PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2019 11:17 pm
by Shadowflame909
This is not a democracy, It's merely an Oligarchy.

Re: Why was #42386 merged?

PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2019 11:22 pm
by wesoda25
Shadowflame909 wrote:This is not a democracy, It's merely an Obligarchy.

Was that a joke or do you mean oligarchy.

Re: Why was #42386 merged?

PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2019 11:28 pm
by Shadowflame909
wesoda25 wrote:
Shadowflame909 wrote:This is not a democracy, It's merely an Obligarchy.

Was that a joke or do you mean oligarchy.



thanks ryan cobb


my self esteem is doing the limbo

Re: Why was #42386 merged?

PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 12:05 am
by Yakumo_Chen
Being able to carry 100 ied lances in a small item is pretty fucking stupid you have to admit

Re: Why was #42386 merged?

PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 12:10 am
by Luke Cox
Yakumo_Chen wrote:Being able to carry 100 ied lances in a small item is pretty fucking stupid you have to admit

Clearly, but I think the argument here is that there are far more sane solutions that don't involve throwing the baby out with the bathwater

Re: Why was #42386 merged?

PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 12:21 am
by DemonFiren
wesoda25 wrote:
SaveVatznick wrote:
Vaina wrote:Chemistry is getting castrated and there's nothing we can do about it. Give up while you can.


It was castrated a while ago when they changed how chems were packed into plants/max capacity and removed custom nettles. This change just removes even more of the fun stuff you used to be able to do with the reagents you have available.
I'm waiting until they remove hypodermic prickles because "I notice I die to those a lot after we got rid of bomb plants"

Luke Cox wrote:Because coderbus clearly knows how to play the game better than you despite hardly ever playing, you fucking plebian

Holy fucking shit it’s almost as if things that are overpowered and put you at a significant advantage over others despite minimal work aren’t fair and get removed. What the heck????? Mods?!????

By your argument current singletank bombs should stay because it’s fun for me to bomb the station into oblivion after 5 minutes of work. If its fun for me, its fun for everyone else, right?

>removing singletanks
if they're too easy to make shake up atmos again to make them harder
back in my day they used to be a closely guarded secret and it worked

Re: Why was #42386 merged?

PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 12:26 am
by Yakumo_Chen
Botany is easily the most overlooked department in the game despite being public facing. They grow grief plants every shift and are usually given a grief pass because botany is too useful for the crew, and nobody complains about bananas or slip tomatoes enough to lynch them.

On the other hand they can easily disguise their activities and there's no outward way to tell if the pineapples they're growing are going to inject 50u deathchems when thrown or if they're just going to be used for pizza.

Add to the fact none of security has botany access and it's a recipe for easy antagging

Re: Why was #42386 merged?

PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 12:30 am
by Vaina
wesoda25 wrote:Holy fucking shit it’s almost as if things that are overpowered and put you at a significant advantage over others despite minimal work aren’t fair and get removed. What the heck????? Mods?!????

By your argument current singletank bombs should stay because it’s fun for me to bomb the station into oblivion after 5 minutes of work. If its fun for me, its fun for everyone else, right?

Yakumo_Chen wrote:Botany is easily the most overlooked department in the game despite being public facing. They grow grief plants every shift and are usually given a grief pass because botany is too useful for the crew, and nobody complains about bananas or slip tomatoes enough to lynch them.

On the other hand they can easily disguise their activities and there's no outward way to tell if the pineapples they're growing are going to inject 50u deathchems when thrown or if they're just going to be used for pizza.

Add to the fact none of security has botany access and it's a recipe for easy antagging

If you get robusted by a botanist, you deserve it.

Re: Why was #42386 merged?

PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 1:10 am
by Yakumo_Chen
That's like saying you deserve to to be robusted by an assistant with a bottle of water and a bomb spear except that he can carry 500 of each at a time.

Explosives are the most overpowered weapon in the game.

Re: Why was #42386 merged?

PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 1:12 am
by PKPenguin321
Vaina wrote:If you get robusted by a botanist, you deserve it.

"If you get robusted by one of the most overpowered roles on the station, you deserve it. I have no additional justification or reasoning for this; you just deserve it, trust me."
???

Re: Why was #42386 merged?

PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 2:04 am
by Vaina
It takes a skilled and knowledgeable botanist to produce anything that could be considered overpowered within a reasonable window. Firstly, you'll need a substantial measure of mutagen to get all the plant mutations you'll require--densified chemicals from redbeets, separated chemicals from glowberries, holywater from holymelons (if you're feeling adventurous), and anything in between--which will demand a cooperative chemist or a properly executed heist calling for the theft of their dispenser (and the ones you can build yourself are hardly worth the effort).

Secondly comes the RNG and time involved growing these plants (and ensuring they have a yield to begin with), extracting their traits, and packing them all into one. Provided you're lucky and efficient, the process could take anywhere from ten to fifteen-ish minutes. I've had rounds where it's stretched well into the half hour mark.

Let's face the facts: science can create bombs that destroy entire departments within the same timeframes as the "overpowered" plants spoken of. Not to mention sepia slimes and others--like mechs. Security has easily the strongest arsenal in the game roundstart--which makes sense. Cargo can become a force of nature unto itself, along with mining and its myriad of broken loot. Medical with virology and genetics can disrupt entire rounds. The only department that has little in the way of power is Engineering.

If botany managed to robust you with superplants, they rightfully earned those plants through patient and diligent hard work. That's why you deserve it.

Nerfing is, in general, poor by design. Botany is in a good place right now (or was, anyway), and in my personal experience, has been the least of the balance issues afflicting this game.

Re: Why was #42386 merged?

PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 2:10 am
by PKPenguin321
Vaina wrote:It takes a skilled and knowledgeable botanist to produce anything that could be considered overpowered within a reasonable window.

no

Re: Why was #42386 merged?

PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 2:11 am
by somerandomguy
oranges wrote:why would it.

And the PR was merged because 4dplanners argument for why it should be merged made sense.

feature has a tag, remove should too
and it would keep people like 4d from doing literally nothing but removing

Re: Why was #42386 merged?

PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 2:15 am
by 4dplanner
If I did nothing but removing I wouldn't have 29 GBP :^)

Re: Why was #42386 merged?

PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 2:17 am
by Vaina
PKPenguin321 wrote:
Vaina wrote:It takes a skilled and knowledgeable botanist to produce anything that could be considered overpowered within a reasonable window.

no

I gave detailed justification and reasoning like you enquired, and the most I get out of it is a "no"? You're not going to acknowledge my other points? You're not going to extend the same courtesy of a thought-out reply?

I'm a little disappointed; I expected something more adult. Oh well.

Re: Why was #42386 merged?

PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 2:54 am
by 4dplanner
Length of a reply does not a detailed justification make. You said all the steps that we already know go into making exploding plants, then effectively said "and these take a long time, and so you deserve to be killed by them". None of these steps require skill or even really that much knowledge. Again, the length of your reply mostly comes from simply listing the steps and stating your own opinion.

Re: Why was #42386 merged?

PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 2:55 am
by wesoda25
Oh my lord vaina shut up. The ol’ reliable argument of x exists so why shouldn’t y is stupid. There are literally two open feedback threads for both overpowered parts of science you mentioned. Mutagen argument is a joke, you need one bottle tops, which I’ve never had an issue of getting from chemistry. If push comes to shove get CMO involved.

And PKP is right. You don’t need to be knowledgeable, not at all. Its ironic how you call max caps OP and use the “knowledge” argument at the same time. Yeah, to have first found the proper recipe you had to be knowledgeable. Now anyone with substantial play time in the game knows exactly how, the same way they don’t know how to play atmos but can still make trit bombs.

Re: Why was #42386 merged?

PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 3:05 am
by Vaina
4dplanner wrote:Length of a reply does not a detailed justification make. You said all the steps that we already know go into making exploding plants, then effectively said "and these take a long time, and so you deserve to be killed by them". None of these steps require skill or even really that much knowledge. Again, the length of your reply mostly comes from simply listing the steps and stating your own opinion.

Okay.
wesoda25 wrote:Oh my lord vaina shut up.

No.
The ol’ reliable argument of x exists so why shouldn’t y is stupid.

It's valid to point out inconsistency and half-assed measures.
wesoda25 wrote:Its ironic how you call max caps OP and use the “knowledge” argument at the same time.

Because they are.

Re: Why was #42386 merged?

PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 3:07 am
by PKPenguin321
Vaina wrote:
PKPenguin321 wrote:
Vaina wrote:It takes a skilled and knowledgeable botanist to produce anything that could be considered overpowered within a reasonable window.

no

I gave detailed justification and reasoning like you enquired, and the most I get out of it is a "no"? You're not going to acknowledge my other points? You're not going to extend the same courtesy of a thought-out reply?

I'm a little disappointed; I expected something more adult. Oh well.

When the entirety of the longest point of your argument relies on a statement that is inherently false, you get a "no"

Re: Why was #42386 merged?

PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 3:18 am
by 4dplanner
Just to confirm Vaina, I should be nerfing more things so it's not half-assed?

Re: Why was #42386 merged?

PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 3:19 am
by 4dplanner
Because I'm not done yet ;)

Re: Why was #42386 merged?

PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 3:31 am
by Vaina
PKPenguin321 wrote:When the entirety of the longest point of your argument relies on a statement that is inherently false, you get a "no"

The lengthy step-by-step process illustrates why it's far from "inherently false." Is it simple once you learn it? Of course. Anything is. Relative to the other trades, it's one of the most demanding and involved for the player. Compare getting good explosive holy melons to a cargo tech ordering null crates with the station budget--it's basically effortless with cooperation. A Durand with crew-sweeping weaponry: you push a few buttons on a research console, wait so you can push more buttons, collect minerals you didn't work for, and assemble as indicated on the wiki. Sepia and gold slimes: feed monkeys until you reach your desired outcome--all you require here is a little patience. Do you want department-destroying valves? You can do it in less than three minutes.

The only other trades comparable to botany in terms of involvement and diligence are virology and genetics. Yes, it takes a certain degree of knowledge and, most of all, precious time and patience to make good botany. Whatever power botany acquires is well-earned and well-deserved. You saying "no" doesn't change that.
4dplanner wrote:Just to confirm Vaina, I should be nerfing more things so it's not half-assed?
Because I'm not done yet ;)

Thanks for showing your spiteful colours. It'll really endear the community towards you as a "contributor."

Re: Why was #42386 merged?

PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 4:36 am
by oranges
Nerfing is, in general, poor by design.


The /tg/station playerbase in one sentence

Re: Why was #42386 merged?

PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 4:38 am
by confused rock
oranges can we remove the new shoe sprites they ugly

Re: Why was #42386 merged?

PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 4:40 am
by oranges
they're in the wrong perspective

Re: Why was #42386 merged?

PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 4:51 am
by confused rock
yes that pleeeaaaase

Re: Why was #42386 merged?

PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 5:34 am
by Vaina
oranges wrote:
Nerfing is, in general, poor by design.


The /tg/station playerbase in one sentence



Even your biggest nerf in recent memory--slips no longer stunning--had a net positive, which was the crawling feature--and it was great. Genetics was shafted in many ways with the nerf to hulk, but its mechanics were made more interactive, and given fascinating new powers to make up for the loss. The number of thumbs down on this PR is telling. Very telling.

What benefit does botany reap from this? Is anything planned to counteract the nerf (Of course not. 4d only varedits)? Anything fun or interesting in its stead to compensate?

Re: Why was #42386 merged?

PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 6:26 am
by PKPenguin321
Vaina wrote:
PKPenguin321 wrote:When the entirety of the longest point of your argument relies on a statement that is inherently false, you get a "no"

The lengthy step-by-step process illustrates why it's far from "inherently false." Is it simple once you learn it? Of course. Anything is. Relative to the other trades, it's one of the most demanding and involved for the player. Compare getting good explosive holy melons to a cargo tech ordering null crates with the station budget--it's basically effortless with cooperation. A Durand with crew-sweeping weaponry: you push a few buttons on a research console, wait so you can push more buttons, collect minerals you didn't work for, and assemble as indicated on the wiki. Sepia and gold slimes: feed monkeys until you reach your desired outcome--all you require here is a little patience. Do you want department-destroying valves? You can do it in less than three minutes.

The only other trades comparable to botany in terms of involvement and diligence are virology and genetics. Yes, it takes a certain degree of knowledge and, most of all, precious time and patience to make good botany. Whatever power botany acquires is well-earned and well-deserved. You saying "no" doesn't change that.
4dplanner wrote:Just to confirm Vaina, I should be nerfing more things so it's not half-assed?
Because I'm not done yet ;)

Thanks for showing your spiteful colours. It'll really endear the community towards you as a "contributor."

*follows the pastebin guide to make instakill plants in 5 minutes*

Re: Why was #42386 merged?

PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 7:05 am
by Vaina
PKPenguin321 wrote:*follows the pastebin guide to make instakill plants in 5 minutes*

*doesn't cite sources*

I know three different recipes that can ruin your day, and neither of them require separated chemicals. Unless you're referring to this one, in which case: nice.

Re: Why was #42386 merged?

PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 7:37 am
by Timonk
wesoda25 wrote:Mutagen argument is a joke, you need one bottle tops, which I’ve never had an issue of getting from chemistry.


This isn't true at all. I once ran through 3 buckets of mutagen for an ambrosia Gaia plant. I just started out on botany like 2 days ago and even I know that "you need one bottle tops" isn't true at all.

Re: Why was #42386 merged?

PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 8:37 am
by Deitus
welcome to /tg/
its funny to look back and laugh at the days of HG and his classic "its not your coderbase, its our coderbase" spheal right until you look past the ironic shitposting and realize that its still 100% unironically the case that head coders can and will add and remove what they want despite any input from the actual playerbase
is it shitty? yeah. can anything be done about it? no. these kinds of threads pop up now and then showing more egregious examples of power abuse but it'l die with nothing done about it in short order like all the ones before it.
its just something you get used to i guess.

Re: Why was #42386 merged?

PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 8:37 am
by Timonk
Yakumo_Chen wrote:Being able to carry 100 ied lances in a small item is pretty fucking stupid you have to admit

Well now you can only carry 40 ied lances in a small item

Re: Why was #42386 merged?

PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 10:35 am
by Dr_bee
Am I the only person who enjoys botany that thinks this was an ok change?

Hypodermic needles and liquid contents can now trigger on slip, giving botany the ability to make chemical landmines, taking away their ability to make reliable fucking explosives was a good thing to take away after that buff.

Making Gaseous decomp slightly easier to get might be a good buff if you think botany is in a bad place (it isnt), but other than that botany is as powerful as it has ever been, even after this change.

Re: Why was #42386 merged?

PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 10:43 am
by Vaina
Dr_bee wrote:Hypodermic needles and liquid contents can now trigger on slip, giving botany the ability to make chemical landmines, taking away their ability to make reliable fucking explosives was a good thing to take away after that buff.

This is a good--if not small--compromise that honestly should have borne mention somewhere in this thread. Of course, looking at the PR now, it was no thanks to 4d.

Re: Why was #42386 merged?

PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 11:32 am
by Lumbermancer
Vaina wrote:
oranges wrote:
Nerfing is, in general, poor by design.


The /tg/station playerbase in one sentence



Even your biggest nerf in recent memory--slips no longer stunning--had a net positive, which was the crawling feature--and it was great. Genetics was shafted in many ways with the nerf to hulk, but its mechanics were made more interactive, and given fascinating new powers to make up for the loss. The number of thumbs down on this PR is telling. Very telling.

What benefit does botany reap from this? Is anything planned to counteract the nerf (Of course not. 4d only varedits)? Anything fun or interesting in its stead to compensate?


That's it, we've lost the game to the pvp crowd.

Re: Why was #42386 merged?

PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 11:52 am
by Denton
Main issue is that even low power explosives will knock you out and delimb.

Re: Why was #42386 merged?

PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 12:15 pm
by MisterPerson
Buffs are fine, but you can't only buff or you run into power creep and complexity creep problems. For example, in that video you posted, they mention fighting games offering many fighters with custom supers and modes and whatever other nonsense, but you gotta realize, that shit is confusing for a new player and existing players who had the game change out from under them. Don't forget the saps who had to, you know, actually make all that crap and the people after who have to implement other stuff with all the existing features in mind. And the end result may or may not be a better game, especially if there's obvious balance problems. After all, if you only have fixed amount of development and polish time, the more features you add, the less polished they'll be. So at some point, too many features results in a less enjoyable game. Think of it like a Laffer curve for game development.

I'm just saying sometimes nerfs and removals are necessary, even if they're unpopular. I'm not saying it was necessary in this exact case, I'm just strongly disputing the notion that "nerfs are bad and to be avoided" which is just nonsense.

Re: Why was #42386 merged?

PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 12:19 pm
by Timonk
MisterPerson wrote:I'm just saying sometimes nerfs and removals are necessary, even if they're unpopular. I'm not saying it was necessary in this exact case, I'm just strongly disputing the notion that "nerfs are bad and to be avoided" which is just nonsense.


i agree, nerfs are necessary but not for this one.

Re: Why was #42386 merged?

PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 12:33 pm
by Kierany9
anybody who started playing botany after the introduction of the plant dna manipulator has no right to post on this thread