Disembowelment on living targets is a bad mechanic.

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Disembowelment on living targets is a bad mechanic.

Postby Dr_bee » Sat Feb 16, 2019 4:19 am #476850

Title says it all. Disembowelment is an RNG 1 hit kill.

Also hilariously, it doesnt take damage taken into account when it activates, if you are augged in full armor you can take no damage and still get disemboweled.

Keep disembowelment but require the target to be dead first.



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Re: Disembowelment on living targets is a bad mechanic.

Postby Yakumo_Chen » Sat Feb 16, 2019 4:22 am #476851

never seen it happen. What items in the game can actually disembowel on a living, not-crit target?
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Re: Disembowelment on living targets is a bad mechanic.

Postby angelstarri » Sat Feb 16, 2019 4:31 am #476853

Yakumo_Chen wrote:never seen it happen. What items in the game can actually disembowel on a living, not-crit target?


Cult sword
Fire axe
captain's saber
basically any sharp item with robust damage
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Re: Disembowelment on living targets is a bad mechanic.

Postby confused rock » Sat Feb 16, 2019 4:33 am #476855

Yakumo is fucking blind or lying if they've never seen it happen, it happens half the time someone gets slashed once with a (d)esword. It's blatantly obvious that gutting is broken, it's only a matter of when someone is motivated enough to fix it.
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Re: Disembowelment on living targets is a bad mechanic.

Postby Steelpoint » Sat Feb 16, 2019 4:43 am #476857

I was wearing a engineering hardsuit and a ash lizard ran past me and hit me once in the chest with a lavaland axe.

That one hit instantly disemboweld me and killed me on tbe spot.

The mechanic does need a rework.
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Re: Disembowelment on living targets is a bad mechanic.

Postby Anuv » Sat Feb 16, 2019 5:14 am #476860

Also chaplain weapon Hand of God does burn damage yet seems to have an insane disembowel chance too
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Re: Disembowelment on living targets is a bad mechanic.

Postby Dr_bee » Sat Feb 16, 2019 5:27 am #476862

Anything with 15+ damage and sharpness can disembowel living targets. so it doesnt take much, circular saws and spears for example.

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Re: Disembowelment on living targets is a bad mechanic.

Postby PKPenguin321 » Sat Feb 16, 2019 10:01 am #476882

Yakumo_Chen wrote:never seen it happen. What items in the game can actually disembowel on a living, not-crit target?

A spear can do it. Was a rev recently and was killing sec in 2-3 spear hits because of lucky disembowels. Pretty crazy
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Re: Disembowelment on living targets is a bad mechanic.

Postby Tlaltecuhtli » Sat Feb 16, 2019 10:34 am #476886

you can insta disembow with the esword on a full hp person

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Re: Disembowelment on living targets is a bad mechanic.

Postby Steelpoint » Sat Feb 16, 2019 12:01 pm #476892

What is armour, what is a dinky ash spear slicing through my 1,000,000 times folded Engineering Hardsuit exterior.

Internal organ or artery damage is one thing but seeing all your internal organs splat on the floor from a single hit by a melee weapon is unbalanced in my opinion.
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Re: Disembowelment on living targets is a bad mechanic.

Postby Screemonster » Sat Feb 16, 2019 12:37 pm #476895

Spoiler:
That's it. I'm sick of all this "Masterwork obj/item/melee" bullshit that's going on in the SS13 system right now. Eswords deserve much better than that. Much, much better than that.
I should know what I'm talking about. I myself purchased a genuine esword in metastation for 8 telecrystals (that's about $20,000) and have been practicing with it for almost 2 years now. I can even cut slabs of solid wall plating with my esword.

Syndicate smiths spend years working on a single esword and toggle it up to a million times to produce the finest blades known to mankind.

eswords are thrice as sharp as captain's sabers and thrice as hard for that matter too. Anything a saber can cut through, an esword can cut through better. I'm pretty sure an esword could easily bisect a HoS wearing a full trenchcoat with a simple vertical slash.

Ever wonder why Nanotrasen never bothered conquering Donk Co? That's right, they were too scared to fight the disciplined syndicate and their eswords of destruction. Even in nuke ops, validhunters targeted the men with the eswords first because their killing power was feared and respected.

So what am I saying? eswords are simply the best sword that the world has ever seen, and thus, require better stats in the SS13 system. Here is the stat block I propose for eswords:

sharpness = IS_SHARP
force = 40
throwforce = 20

Now that seems a lot more representative of the cutting power of eswords in real life, don't you think?

tl;dr = eswords need to do more damage in SS13, see my new stat block.


making sharp attacks not count as sharp (but retain their normal damage) against armour/suits with the THICKMATERIAL flag would make this less silly.

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Re: Disembowelment on living targets is a bad mechanic.

Postby Kryson » Sat Feb 16, 2019 2:29 pm #476904

I've been disembowled by a greytider hitting me twice with a cake hat. The mechanic might need some adjustment, but it is fine for really strong weapons in my opinion.

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Re: Disembowelment on living targets is a bad mechanic.

Postby PKPenguin321 » Sat Feb 16, 2019 10:23 pm #476961

this would be easy to change if i could figure out when this was added. anybody know what PR caused this?
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Re: Disembowelment on living targets is a bad mechanic.

Postby Mickyan » Sat Feb 16, 2019 10:33 pm #476963

This what you're looking for?

https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/17419

Disemboweling is what happens when you "dismember" a torso. I'm guessing the chances of that happening got swept in with adjustments to how chopping off limbs works
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Re: Disembowelment on living targets is a bad mechanic.

Postby PKPenguin321 » Sat Feb 16, 2019 11:00 pm #476968

Mickyan wrote:This what you're looking for?

https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/17419

Disemboweling is what happens when you "dismember" a torso. I'm guessing the chances of that happening got swept in with adjustments to how chopping off limbs works

No, the disemboweling of living targets is much more recent.
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Re: Disembowelment on living targets is a bad mechanic.

Postby Mickyan » Sun Feb 17, 2019 12:07 am #476975

Might be this one, there was no living check but previously dismemberment needed fully damaged limbs so if your chest was at max you were already dead

https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/38436

A living check was added for the head but not the torso
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Re: Disembowelment on living targets is a bad mechanic.

Postby wesoda25 » Sun Feb 17, 2019 12:40 am #476979

Id make a PR if I could easily identify which file is actually involved, both of those have tonnnnnsss of stuff to sift through and I don't care enough for that. TBH I'd just make it only disembowl if damage of torso is >50.

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Re: Disembowelment on living targets is a bad mechanic.

Postby 4dplanner » Sun Feb 17, 2019 1:28 am #476990

The bit that stops this for heads:
Code: Select all
/obj/item/bodypart/head/can_dismember(obj/item/I)
   if(!((owner.stat == DEAD) || owner.InFullCritical()))
      return FALSE
   return ..()
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Re: Disembowelment on living targets is a bad mechanic.

Postby 4dplanner » Sun Feb 17, 2019 1:29 am #476991

Pretty sure it'd be easy to just copy + paste for torso, and change the condition if you wanted.
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Re: Disembowelment on living targets is a bad mechanic.

Postby Dr_bee » Sun Feb 17, 2019 2:35 am #477004

wesoda25 wrote:Id make a PR if I could easily identify which file is actually involved, both of those have tonnnnnsss of stuff to sift through and I don't care enough for that. TBH I'd just make it only disembowl if damage of torso is >50.


Disembowelment is a 1 hit kill, even on an injured target it is really fucking lame. The damage it causes cant be fixed in time to save the persons life.

Dismembering limbs lets you fight back or run, dismembering organs instantly puts you into permastun and you die with little anyone can do to save you.

If you want to change it, remove it from living targets all together instead of leaving an instant kill in the game.

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Re: Disembowelment on living targets is a bad mechanic.

Postby imsxz » Sun Feb 17, 2019 2:52 am #477011

i havent read up much at all but id like to say that 1 hit disembowels were hardcoded out until the limb damage rework (by xdtm i think?), after that same change you could also 1 hit headshot for a few days until it was patched out, for some reason disembowelment was never changed to be the same.

If an item is normal sized or bigger it can dismember if it's sharp, or if it's burn damage based (fucking cakehat).

I don't really thing 1 hit 100% assured death is the best thing to give to common items, but I must say it's always funny watching someone misclick themselves or someone else and ripping their guts out, bonus points if it was something memey like cakehat.
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Re: Disembowelment on living targets is a bad mechanic.

Postby confused rock » Sun Feb 17, 2019 3:09 am #477014

note that for a long period disembowelment was in, but wasn't performable on the living.
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Re: Disembowelment on living targets is a bad mechanic.

Postby wesoda25 » Sun Feb 17, 2019 3:36 am #477016

Dr_bee wrote:
wesoda25 wrote:Id make a PR if I could easily identify which file is actually involved, both of those have tonnnnnsss of stuff to sift through and I don't care enough for that. TBH I'd just make it only disembowl if damage of torso is >50.


Disembowelment is a 1 hit kill, even on an injured target it is really fucking lame. The damage it causes cant be fixed in time to save the persons life.

Dismembering limbs lets you fight back or run, dismembering organs instantly puts you into permastun and you die with little anyone can do to save you.

If you want to change it, remove it from living targets all together instead of leaving an instant kill in the game.

Yeah true, maybe crit would be more appropriate. At that point you’re dead anyways so I don’t think it really matters.

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Re: Disembowelment on living targets is a bad mechanic.

Postby wesoda25 » Sun Feb 17, 2019 5:04 am #477029


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Re: Disembowelment on living targets is a bad mechanic.

Postby obscolene » Sun Feb 17, 2019 5:24 am #477033

confused rock wrote:Yakumo is fucking blind or lying if they've never seen it happen, it happens half the time someone gets slashed once with a (d)esword. It's blatantly obvious that gutting is broken, it's only a matter of when someone is motivated enough to fix it.

LMAO yea, notorious cap powergamer who routinely executes people with saber has 'never seen this before.' what a load of bullshit
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Re: Disembowelment on living targets is a bad mechanic.

Postby Denton » Mon Feb 18, 2019 2:34 pm #477258


based and floorpilled
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Re: Disembowelment on living targets is a bad mechanic.

Postby WarbossLincoln » Fri Feb 22, 2019 2:42 pm #477824

I have bad luck because I seem to get RNG knocked out from a blow to the head like 5x as often as disemboweled.
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Re: Disembowelment on living targets is a bad mechanic.

Postby confused rock » Fri Feb 22, 2019 6:36 pm #477830

head hits can't ko you dumbo
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Re: Disembowelment on living targets is a bad mechanic.

Postby Mickyan » Fri Feb 22, 2019 8:10 pm #477836

I remember getting knocked out by being hit with an axe once because the guy just ran off assuming I was in crit and it ended up saving me

But now that I went looking at the code I wonder if it was coincidental because I can't find anything about it. I may just be missing something though.
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Re: Disembowelment on living targets is a bad mechanic.

Postby teepeepee » Fri Feb 22, 2019 9:51 pm #477845

isn't it punches to the head or groin that stun? like, fists, not weapons?

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Re: Disembowelment on living targets is a bad mechanic.

Postby confused rock » Sat Feb 23, 2019 1:56 am #477915

several years ago head hits koed at a 10% lower chance than a knockdown if targetting the chest, but not any more.
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Re: Disembowelment on living targets is a bad mechanic.

Postby Dr_bee » Sat Feb 23, 2019 7:04 am #478155

I think we can all agree that RNG in combat sucks.

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Re: Disembowelment on living targets is a bad mechanic.

Postby MisterPerson » Sat Feb 23, 2019 12:29 pm #478267

Dr_bee wrote:I think we can all agree that RNG in combat sucks.


And yet disarming is still a thing and it would probably be overall bad if it got removed. So be careful with generalizations like this.
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Re: Disembowelment on living targets is a bad mechanic.

Postby Dr_bee » Sat Feb 23, 2019 1:55 pm #478281

MisterPerson wrote:
Dr_bee wrote:I think we can all agree that RNG in combat sucks.


And yet disarming is still a thing and it would probably be overall bad if it got removed. So be careful with generalizations like this.


This makes me wonder if there is a way to change disarm to make it more predictable while maintaining its use as a method to fight people. Turning disarm into a movement slowdown and click delay increase for your enemies for example.

You are right however, It was too broad of a generalization. I should refine it to "RNG instant wins" such as disembowel or stuns.

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Re: Disembowelment on living targets is a bad mechanic.

Postby confused rock » Sat Feb 23, 2019 11:59 pm #478418

disarm is an rng stun, and very op in that regard. if someone could get a push off with every disarm, standing next to them would be completely unsafe. Rng is a good way to balance something sometimes, but there's almost always a better way- take how fallout 4 did crits vs fallout 3, or how crits are used to balance defensive walls in pokemon.
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Re: Disembowelment on living targets is a bad mechanic.

Postby Mickyan » Sun Feb 24, 2019 2:16 am #478483

I toyed with the idea of having the stun chance tied to remaining health or ditching it in favor of doing some stamina damage each hit. Not that I'd ever PR anything because I don't need that kind of headache.

Disarm is just the great equalizer anyway, until the instant chain stunning is gone combat will still be boring and dumb
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Re: Disembowelment on living targets is a bad mechanic.

Postby Cobby » Sun Feb 24, 2019 6:36 pm #478895

RNG combat is god and it's how you get stories like "I disarmed a nuke op and saved the station", but only if it's low enough so that those stories hold weight.
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Re: Disembowelment on living targets is a bad mechanic.

Postby oranges » Mon Feb 25, 2019 3:09 am #479081

it isn't good

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Re: Disembowelment on living targets is a bad mechanic.

Postby iksyp » Mon Feb 25, 2019 5:14 pm #479230

getting a disarm is the random crits of ss13
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Re: Disembowelment on living targets is a bad mechanic.

Postby Dr_bee » Mon Feb 25, 2019 6:35 pm #479251

iksyp wrote:getting a disarm is the random crits of ss13


Thread is slowly becoming about RNG in combat and less about the original mechanic I complained about, which was fixed thank goodness.

Could someone rename the thread? or should I start a new one?

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Re: Disembowelment on living targets is a bad mechanic.

Postby PKPenguin321 » Mon Feb 25, 2019 6:59 pm #479257

Dr_bee wrote:I think we can all agree that RNG in combat sucks.

No
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Re: Disembowelment on living targets is a bad mechanic.

Postby MisterPerson » Mon Feb 25, 2019 8:14 pm #479271

Dr_bee wrote:
iksyp wrote:getting a disarm is the random crits of ss13


Thread is slowly becoming about RNG in combat and less about the original mechanic I complained about, which was fixed thank goodness.

Could someone rename the thread? or should I start a new one?


You should make a new one. If it's the same thread, some people will skip it.
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Immersion/flavor is playing a WW2 shooter and using a mosin-nagant instead of a laser gun - this is important.

Realism is playing a WW2 shooter and having to spend 2 months in hospital everytime you get shot - stupid and detrimental to gameplay. Nobody actually wants a realistic game, which is why realism arguments are so selectively used.
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