Stun Overhaul

[Steelpoint]

There are two massive PRs that were recently put on Github (Not merged) by Ergo and Paprika respectivly that completely overhauls the game's stun based combat.

---------------------------------

Here is Ergo's Stun overhaul

Link to PR: https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/6285

If you're unfamiliar with the stamina system (Most people are actually unaware it even exists), here's how stamina works:

-Stamina damage heals naturally over time.
-If your actual damage + stamina damage is greater than 100, you are weaken(5)'d.
-Stamina damage, like normal damage, slows you down, so the easier you are to hit the more stamina damage you have on you.

1. Removes instant weakening/stunning from many, many projectiles in the game. Instead, they now do large amounts of stamina damage to compensate. This means no more one-shot ranged stuns, for the most part, for security AND antagonists.
2. Non ranged stuns are untouched
3. Water slipping has been changed; Slipping on a water tile that someone has sprayed with or splashed with water will cause you to slip and drop your carried items, but you will NOT be stunned. Slipping on a water tile from a standard mop will have the original stunning, for janitors to lord over the station with. The advanced mop uses the former, so another "benefit" to upgrading your mop. Lube still works as-is.
4. Unarmed attacks deal stamina damage instead of having a random chance to weaken, and armor protects against this.
5. Brute force weapons dealing damage to the chest deal max(Forcex0.75, 10) stamina damage in addition to the damage they already do instead of RNG knockdown. Armor does not protect against the stamina damage, but still works regularly for the brute damage.
6. The disabler is now the standard security sidearm. Bumps up the point cost of the crate to match tasers.
This one's gonna get heated. What this does is turn combat in SS13 into a little more complicated than "Shoot with taser, cuff", and prolongs firefights. Keep in mind that prolonging firefights tends to aid the person that has higher amounts of people on their side. Which in most cases, is the Station. Do we want this to happen? I'm interested in seeing it, but it's impossible to really see what the effect this will have on the game. If you've played lasertag, which uses stamina damage, that is slightly similar to what this would be like.

Also, stamina damage values for the various projectiles are up in the air and subject to change.

---------------------------------


Here is Paprika's Stun Overhaul

Link to PR: https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/6293

Adds advanced taser to RND. The child of the taser and disabler.
advtaser
(Sprites by ausops)

Taser electrodes now have a range of 7 tiles. That means they are useless in chases in hallways(unless you're good and predict where people are going to ambush them), great for arrests in departments and defusing situations as they've always been.
Disabler shots now have limitless range, like proper laser beams. They also penetrate windows and grilles like laser beams. However, the stamina damage has been reduced from 34 to 33, meaning they do 99 stamina damage in 3 hits, not enough to stun a fully healed person, but anyone with even 1 point of damage will take the stun.
E-guns' stun mode converted to 'disable' mode. This is to provide additional value to advanced eguns (which have stun electrodes) and also to reduce the sheer amount of ranged stuns in the game.
Most bullets will now deal heavy stamina damage in addition to their regular damage.
Converted ranged var to apply to all projectiles. If you want to have a ranged projectile (like an actual crossbow you can pick up the bolts of after you shoot them) you can now easily apply it to any projectile, and also modify what happens after the projectile reaches the range. By default, it qdels the projectile, but as I did with the electrodes, it makes the 'spark' effect.
Removed tasers from security officer lockers, replaced with disablers (affects the warden as well). Security officers will spawn with tasers now, to reduce the amount of 'free tasers' simply lying around. They are a powerful tool despite their range being nerfed, so the 'spare' tasers have been moved to the armory:

I figured it was important that at the very least there was a feedback thread on this potential change on the forums.

Your thoughts.

[iyaerP]

Given how absolutely enormous of a change this is, I would like to see this tested on badger first. If it works there without fucking up the game, maybe port it over and test it on Sibyl too. I don't want it to go straight to Sibyl, because all too often, somehting like this goes through as a "test" and even if it is retardedly bad and hated (space speed changes) it sticks around anyway.

[Spacemanspark]

Wow.
Wow.
WOW.
I'm just going to say I'm both annoyed and laughing my ass off.
But, yes, this combat is pretty damn fun. It can make for some interesting RP scenes.
It also allows for you to respond if some random greyshirt gets ahold of a taser and starts shooting everywhere. You have time to actually respond (Not much, but still some time.). It's not always GG NO RE if they pop out of nowhere. I think it would be fairly balancing here.
Of course, Nuke Ops are going to have to be nerfed in some way...

[RG4]

I can feel like I like this because getting stunned by -Insert antag,security,etc- because they clicked better will make combat instantly more fun because instead of having a 90% chance of getting stunned,cuffed and then stripped is lowered. Plus disablers are always fun as fuck to use as a cargo techie. Granted I think things like the E-Gun,E-Bow, and Advanced E-gun retain their 1 hit stun ability because there all better than a taser period.

Hyperzine making you immune to stamina damage when?

[ThatSlyFox]

Although I love this change but as ergo stated this could fuck over antags. My only real concern though. RIP ebow.

Slipping on a water tile from a standard mop will have the original stunning, for janitors to lord over the station with.

This guy gets it.

Edit: Ebow should do a shit ton of toxin damage only now. No point in adding stamina for it. I also hope magic missile isn't affected.

[Grazyn]

So disarming and pushing won't be changed? Because everytime I see an officer trying to catch someone with a baton instead of a tazer, they end up disarmed and beaten to pulp. At least make it so it's less RNG dependent, it would really suck for security

[Ergovisavi]

Obviously, catching everything in the game at first glance is pretty hard, and the PR isn't finished yet.

Currently double checking everything works correctly, and investigating on what to do with disarm intent, among other things.

[Incomptinence]

Maybe make the success (not chance thresh holds) of disarm based on stamina damage? Plus make disarm deal stamina damage? Maybe do something similar with punching.

I mean while I may not agree with ranged stun nerfing the stamina + damage system seems perfect for the most basic unarmed melee stuns. Random stun makes ranged stun look like a paragon of balance.

[MisterPerson]

Don't do anything with disarming. Remove it. Add whatever behavior it had to harm intent when attacking someone with a weapon.

[dezzmont]

Chemists will need a nerf with this change. Or without it. Unless knock out drugs work with this system now too.

[cedarbridge]

Don't do anything with disarming. Remove it. Add whatever behavior it had to harm intent when attacking someone with a weapon.

Throwing the baby out with the bath water. I shouldn't need to switch to harm intent and punch the shit out of somebody to push them down. There are times where one is needed and the other not.

[MisterPerson]

Don't do anything with disarming. Remove it. Add whatever behavior it had to harm intent when attacking someone with a weapon.

Throwing the baby out with the bath water. I shouldn't need to switch to harm intent and punch the shit out of somebody to push them down. There are times where one is needed and the other not.

The baby is shit. You already have to switch to disarm intent. Is there ever REALLY a time when you want to kill someone but not knock them unconscious/knock their weapon out of their hand/whatever? I mean really? Come on.

[Steelpoint]

Paprika has just put up his Stun overhaul alternative.

I hear that Paprika had this in the works for a bit but was waiting for his Syndi Gun PR to be merged, I guess his hand was forced to put up his PR early.

Updated the OP with both Stun overhaul proposals.

[paprika]

Yeah, pretty much what steelpoint said, I had planned to make this a while ago, but I really don't want ergo's PR to be changed because mine reels ranged stuns back without completely gutting them and making everything pseudo disablers. I believe that tasers are a necessity. Also, ergo fucking with slips in this same PR is kind of goofy, especially since he didn't touch the main source of water slips (the janitor??). Like, why even touch slips. Anyway, I really would like sec officers to roll around with both tasers and disablers and add unique advantages and disadvantages to both. It adds some depth to playing security besides 'click on shit with tasers 100%' of the time. My PR also nerfs basic eguns, fuck eguns.

[cedarbridge]

Don't do anything with disarming. Remove it. Add whatever behavior it had to harm intent when attacking someone with a weapon.

Throwing the baby out with the bath water. I shouldn't need to switch to harm intent and punch the shit out of somebody to push them down. There are times where one is needed and the other not.

The baby is shit. You already have to switch to disarm intent. Is there ever REALLY a time when you want to kill someone but not knock them unconscious/knock their weapon out of their hand/whatever? I mean really? Come on.

You're reading that backwards. I really shouldn't have to draw you pictures on this one. There really are times where it is good/useful to push somebody over when you don't want to kill them. I shouldn't have to beat somebody unconcious to do so. Think about this from an admins perspective. 5 attempted "disarm" pushes vs 5 harm intent punches. These are viewed differently for good reason. The baby isn't shit. The tub is too big.

[MisterPerson]

The tub is too big. That's just one way to make it smaller. If someone is attacking you, I don't think it'll be hard for an admin to discern "2x punches, one of which is a disarming punch" vs "12 punches, the second of which was a disarm".

And it doesn't matter what you do with disarming, it'll be shit no matter what as long as it's a distinct intent.

[cedarbridge]

And it doesn't matter what you do with disarming, it'll be shit no matter what as long as it's a distinct intent.

Except it really does matter. What the tool is used for dictates its need and function. That's the entire point. I mean, I get that you're really impressed with the idea of somehow removing the intent on its own for whatever actual value you think that has, but removing an entire series of interactions that the disarm intent allows (including for non-human playermobs which you aren't even thinking about) is terrible. This is roughly equivalent to wrecking the entirely of space travel to make nuke ops stick together.

[MisterPerson]

We don't use it for anything except knocking people over. It's not a good idea to base your support of a feature on hypothetical additions that may be added in the future because they won't.

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/ad-hominem

Also this is all off topic and if you want to discuss this further, make another thread or PM me. I just simply wanted to say that changing disarm is a total waste of time so as to save Ergo and/or Paprika some time.

[Bluespace]

Please ensure the syndiborg recieves a one shot stun ebow or something similar.
It needs it to protect against flashes. One flash and the borg's dead.

[Alex Crimson]

Could you not just change Disarm Intent to something like Weaken/Stamina damage? Harm intent would be hitting people with intent to kill/deal brute damage. Hitting people with Stun/Weaken would deal stamina damage with a low chance to weaken. No? Maybe make disarm/tripping something that happens when you target specific body parts.

The Disabler nerf to 33 damage in Paprikas PR seems annoying. Landing 3 shots on someone running away is hard enough as it is.

Well, i think the stun rework is something thats been needed for a long time now. Id be fine with either PR, or a mix of both.

[danno]

1. Removes instant weakening/stunning from many, many projectiles in the game. Instead, they now do large amounts of stamina damage to compensate. This means no more one-shot ranged stuns, for the most part, for security AND antagonists.

this is gonna be awful
the current system isn't good but this kind of change is gonna make a lot of people mad

4. Unarmed attacks deal stamina damage instead of having a random chance to weaken, and armor protects against this.

this is pretty good, removing RNG factors like this from the game is a step in the right direction

6. The disabler is now the standard security sidearm. Bumps up the point cost of the crate to match tasers.
This one's gonna get heated. What this does is turn combat in SS13 into a little more complicated than "Shoot with taser, cuff", and prolongs firefights. Keep in mind that prolonging firefights tends to aid the person that has higher amounts of people on their side. Which in most cases, is the Station. Do we want this to happen? I'm interested in seeing it, but it's impossible to really see what the effect this will have on the game. If you've played lasertag, which uses stamina damage, that is slightly similar to what this would be like.

Also, stamina damage values for the various projectiles are up in the air and subject to change.

this is the kind of shit you should test with a few willing volunteers on a private server before forcing it onto the actual players
if you care about it that much take the time to do it right.

Adds advanced taser to RND. The child of the taser and disabler.
advtaser
(Sprites by ausops)

Taser electrodes now have a range of 7 tiles. That means they are useless in chases in hallways(unless you're good and predict where people are going to ambush them), great for arrests in departments and defusing situations as they've always been.
Disabler shots now have limitless range, like proper laser beams. They also penetrate windows and grilles like laser beams. However, the stamina damage has been reduced from 34 to 33, meaning they do 99 stamina damage in 3 hits, not enough to stun a fully healed person, but anyone with even 1 point of damage will take the stun.
E-guns' stun mode converted to 'disable' mode. This is to provide additional value to advanced eguns (which have stun electrodes) and also to reduce the sheer amount of ranged stuns in the game.
Most bullets will now deal heavy stamina damage in addition to their regular damage.
Converted ranged var to apply to all projectiles. If you want to have a ranged projectile (like an actual crossbow you can pick up the bolts of after you shoot them) you can now easily apply it to any projectile, and also modify what happens after the projectile reaches the range. By default, it qdels the projectile, but as I did with the electrodes, it makes the 'spark' effect.
Removed tasers from security officer lockers, replaced with disablers (affects the warden as well). Security officers will spawn with tasers now, to reduce the amount of 'free tasers' simply lying around. They are a powerful tool despite their range being nerfed, so the 'spare' tasers have been moved to the armory

every single ranged stun weapon had better get a serious ammo buff to deal with this
having a gun that can realistically only stun one healthy person is only slightly more useful than just carrying around a baton. if we reach a point where officers just start to forego taking tasers or disablers or whatever in favor of batons ima smh at u

I think it's stupid to remove tasers from the security lockers, especially since they're getting nerfed in this anyways. it was never a problem and it's even less of a problem now. what is the point of that change?

The Disabler nerf to 33 damage in Paprikas PR seems annoying. Landing 3 shots on someone running away is hard enough as it is.

oh buddy all of this is gonna be super annoying. people are gonna be pissed as hell

[Steelpoint]

I think if we are going to talk about these changes they need to be prefixed with who's change we're talking about.

-snip-

I don't think Paprika's Taser change is smashing it into the ground. Its still a very effective tool in close range situations, or in very small areas (so the maint above the HoP line or RnD for example). This makes Officers have a reliable close range stun, however long range combat, or combat that is moving around the station, means you have to use the Disabler.

Also this makes the Taser a more skilled/harder weapon to use since you have to take range into consideration. Whereas the Disabler is more forgiving.

It also means antag's can saftly avoid being one-hit stunned if they keep their distance, forcing the Officer to spam out Disabler shots.

NOW THINK OF THIS! MrPerson has a very soon to be merged PR which will allow DIAGONAL MOVEMENT! That plus these changes means combat will be far smoother and make dodging Disabler shots at range easier.

This may turn out to be a good change after all, if balanced correctly.

[MisterPerson]

I don't think it's a good idea to have both the the taser and disabler in any way. If they're interchangable, why even have both? If one is better in certain situations and the other is better in others, that creates the need for inventory juggling in the middle of combat, which sounds awful. If one winds up being a sidearm while the other is the primary, I think it would be better in general to just give the primary more ammo. If they're truly sidegrades, that's fine I guess, but you wind up forcing the security officer to carry an extra gun around they don't want to carry, which is an odd, unnecessary nerf considering they can already be somewhat strapped for equipment slots as-is.

[Steelpoint]

It wouldn't be hard to simply make the "Advance Tasers" standard issue for Officers. Inventory management is always a chore at the best of time, cluttering your backpack with a Taser, a Disabler, a Egun (if relevant), handcuffs, flashbangs, teargas, internals box, pepper spray and any other miscellaneous item you may need to carry around (taking the traitors stuff to the brig with him in tow).

E: Also in my opinion having to carry two "guns" around just seems sloppy and unnecessary.

[Wyzack]

Whenever i go to push someone over with disarm it is almost always because i am dragging them cuffed and they wind up in my way. If your energy weapons are depleted (or you are a detective) the only alternative is to actually harm them to get them down, which will have any Asimov AI down your throat.

[lumipharon]

The main things I gain from both these PR's is
A: Flash bang er'ry day
and
B: Why stun when I can just revolver you twice to crit?
(or alternatively) Literally face tank stamina damage while you revolver them, since critting them with 60 brute bullets is faster then stunning with a disabler.

Also either way hulk essentially gets nerfed fairly hard, with so much more stamina damage everywhere. Debatable whether this is good or not.

Edit: Yeah, getting rid of disarm is very dumb. Non harmfully knocking people over/knocking shit out of people's hands is very much an important thing.

[RG4]

So lets give this a test run on a smaller sever and how it ends up turning out. Don't just add this to the sever because the last time a major update was added to the sever it killed gameplay mechanics that most people enjoyed, so hold up merging this until there's a definite consensus on this matter rather than hate later on. Then allow the players to vote on whether or not having this overhaul will be good or not. Because maybe out the 60-100 players that play almost daily not maybe around 10-20 of them are on the forums so definitely wait on this.

DO NOT: Implyment this without player agreement
Just like the space change this has potential for having backlash against it and it NEEDS to go through a testing period before fully implementing it. As it stands at the moment rarely anyone orders disablers from cargo at all because it takes longer to stun someone, yet having a disabler is seen to being less greytiding than having a taser on you. So already most players don't like disablers outside of having them to mess around here and now.

[MisterPerson]

Trying it on the server is the test period.

[MMMiracles]

If this works out in the long run then its gonna be a hell of change to combat, which is probably a good thing.

For the test period, Im assuming badger will end up being the guinea pig for testing purposes?

[Steelpoint]

Testing on the servers is good but the biggest problem with "tests" in the past, and why people are hesitant in accepting them, is because there never has been a plan of attack in using them before. There's no consensus on when to revert the change, when to keep it, how long to keep the testing on or anything in between.

That's what happened last time with the Stun/Speed overhaul, and while its subjectively a good change HG did for the longest time keep referring to it as a "test" until it got to the point that everyone just dropped the idea it was still being tested and its there to stay.

[Wyzack]

Yeah, when "test" is so nebulous all the cries for a revert get dismissed with "It is just a test" until people stop complaining. This is underhanded and shitty

[Reimoo]

While I'm all for less stun based combat, I'm concerned that this will make running away from security an even more attractive option than it already is. More people will commit petty crimes because they know the odds of escaping a chase will be greater without instastuns. Perhaps if it only took two-three shots to down an unarmored opponent I would be okay with it. Antags would need easier access to armor to balance this, though. (via uplink, maybe?)

[MisterPerson]

I think there's 2 or 3 different definitions for the word "test" being thrown out here.

I'm simply referring to the implication this should be bug tested, which I would argue is much faster and easier with 600 bug testers on the live server than maybe 20 a test server would get. And if I think something is good enough to test on Basil, it's good enough to test on Sybil. Neither server is better than the other and I don't want to treat them that way.

The gameplay effects and balance stuff where people comment that reverts are rare, well all I can say is better get the arguments out onto this thread so such arguments can be taken into account before any decisions are made. I would also suggest focusing on the general thought process behind each method rather than on the individual changes within either system. Or argue for the thought process behind sticking with what we have, if that tickles your fancy. But don't focus on the individual trees so much, focus on the forest.

[RG4]

Most people who play cargo know that there are disables in cargo. Anyone whose ever used a disabled knows for a fact there fun to use but aren't great in combat aside from one on one. But 95% of the time cargo goes for combat shotguns and egun crates and rarely disablers this already shows nobody likes them. Last time I used a disabler on a sec officer he was able to stun me, walk over, and cuff me showing that taser 1 hit stuns are still much better alternative to pewpew stun lasers.

[iyaerP]

Prepare for security to never be effective again with these changes. Disablers are garbage for stunning, and having stamina damage be partially blocked by armour will go even further towards making them useless.

Also, I am strongly opposed to the idea of "testing" on the main server, because every time that happens it is really just to force bad code down our throats all under the guise of "testing", and even when it is proven to be terrible and hated, it never gets removed.

Because this change will be terrible. I fully expect to see security and heads go for quick lethal weapons like combat shotguns over the unreliability that is disablers. Because what is boils down to is that security has the option of being shitsec levels of lethal or completely ineffective and get killed. And I know for a fact that every player on this station will go for the lethal option rather than the useless one that gets them killed.

It is the exact same thing as when flashes got nerfed. I have never even seen one USED other than to stun a borg or by revs ever since they got hit with the nerf-hammer, and I don't carry one on my belt when playing sec anymore, it is a wasted space. Disablers are simularly useless, so expect them to have the same disdain and lack of use.

[fleure]

Ah shit I know I'm late posting this but

Spoiler:

[Alex Crimson]

Yeah Disablers are worse than the current Tasers, but the whole point is to make stuns much worse. If Sec starts to lethal everyone then i imagine they will quickly get job banned. If they start using lethal weapons to deal with confirmed antags, then fucking good. Stun combat is so boring. One hit and you are dead in most cases.

If there is concern about the "testing" and reverting the changes, how about coders/lead-coders decide on a date to revert the changes ahead of time? Regardless as to how well the change is received, it will stay on a server for a week/month. No longer.

[paprika]

Disablers were also buffed even though I lowered their stam damage to 33. Disablers get 20 shots, more than plenty to take down multiple people. They go through windows and grilles and tables now, unlike taser electrodes. Also, if you have even 1 point of damage, the disabler will stun in 3 hits, so it's really not that big of a deal. It's a method of balancing that seems terrible in theory but it's really the only way to balance these things. It means a fully healthy person is more likely to shrug off stamina damage than someone who's wounded, so someone at 100% health can take JUST one more shot before getting knocked down, but he'll still be moving at a snail's pace at 99 stamina damage. This also makes it so the disabler isn't a straight upgrade to the taser, the taser is still really good despite its range being nerfed.

Ebow will stay the same, albeit with a 10 tile range so you can't spam it down maint hallways as effectively anymore. Ebows are pretty critical for offensive traitors or syndicate borgs.

[RG4]

Here's a good example of what someone Facepunch said (not facepunch station)
"The only reason that severs use stamina damage tend to be RP severs that have fuck all going on during rounds."
Considering /TG/'s rounds tend to last for about an hour/hour and a half at most with a variety of shot going and making combat even slow with the speed nerf makes it less fun than it should be. Combat has a consequence of if you get stunned you're probably going to die or you're going to kill someone.

[Alex Crimson]

Getting shot once with a stun weapon without a chance to react and dying for it isnt my idea of fun.

and yeah i didnt consider the slow of the stamina damage. I suppose a Disabler nerf isnt such s big deal then.

[paprika]

You can't die as easily to electrodes anymore. E-guns can't tase and lase since they have disablers. Taser users will have to dual weild and swap weapons to kill you with a laser.

[MMMiracles]

I think the major part here is that it doesn't touch melee stuns like a baton. If anything, if you can manage the first 2-3 shots on someone with a disabler, they're easily slow enough to come in for a quick smack with a baton. Its going to require some getting used to and maybe some new tactics when it comes to dealing with targets, but IMO it'd probably work out for the better in the end getting rid of the 'ggnore ranged insta-stun' that the game seems to almost be built on when it comes to combat.

[paprika]

Once again, that's a problem with the proliferation of insta stun weapons, not the insta stun weapons themselves. If the majority of guns in the game did stamina damage, and we kept tasers just for security officers to make arrests with, it wouldn't be so much of a problem. But as it is, there's way too many easy ways to aquire insta stun weapons.

[lumipharon]

You could basically call that powercreep(stagnation?). This game is about stuns, always has been, so if you added a new weapon, it either has to do xbox huge damage, or stun. Otherwise it's objectively shit.

Resetting the stage could be interesting.

[paprika]

...Or just reworking what we have currently to be more balanced instead of flipping over the chess table because you're frustrated with it?

Seriously, just because you're impatient with a system, it's worth taking the time to look at it and rework it instead of gutting it.

Edit: Also @ people complaining about sec having two guns: Most police/security IRL have both a firearm and a taser, same principle here. They're both situational and the inventory management is necessary because it means security essentially will have a more complex gameplay experience deciding whether to use their taser or disabler. Having both in one gun is blech because that would mean they share ammo and that's bad because taser shots eat up a fuck of a lot more ammo than disabler shots. Plus, that's why I added the RND weapon if sec wants to get rid of the micromanaging and just have their weapons share ammo for convenience. Personally I'd stick with two guns and having it be a choice is better.

[Amelius]

Like many said before, test on Badger before you merge it on Sybil. Furthermore, please realize that the reason we have this type of combat to begin with was to incentivize stunning (re: keeping people in the game), instead of killing.

I can see this backfiring pretty damn hard, since permanent damage is better than stamina damage by far. I know I certainly will be firing back with laser guns, rather than peashooters if I'm engaging bloody anything that is a threat, and I have one.

Furthermore, you haven't explained how projectile weapons will work, such as rifles and pistols that nuke ops receive. They are powerful, and incapacitate in 1-2 hits. Without stuns to take them down in one hit, I believe this gives both traitors and nuke ops crazy-ass advantages, especially the latter. Another reason to test this on Badger beforehand.

Another problem I forgot to mention: security already is at a massive disadvantage due to greytiders and problematic folk. By extending firefights, and making it harder to make an arrest, you're effectively throwing on massive shackles onto their feet and fucking them over more than they already are being. Already it's tough to get an appropriately sized team for the station, let alone a set that doesn't have 2-3 braindeads by midgame. The team will get rolled over in seconds unless either the rules become far more permitting in terms of execution / permabrigging / brigging in general, at the very least.

Another thing. Changelings are now even more fucking impossible to kill. Seriously, you're building that gamemode to be fucking Hitler.

[Steelpoint]

If the difference between a Disabler and a Laser is that a Laser takes 5 hits to "stun" someone forever and a Disabler takes 4 hits to stun someone for a short while, I think you can guess how people may want to gravitate to.

The Disabler should take three shots to stun someone, otherwise there's little reason to take a Disabler over a Laser aside from the fact you'll get admins dog piling on you for using a Laser. Of course if we want to simulate how America police operate (I digress).

In the 26th Century why do we make Officers have to juggle a lot of different guns and equipment around? Just give Officers a round start Taser that has Stun and Disable on it. No need to screw with Officers any further especially since the change will already make the game harder for them, or at least different enough to make them less effective.

[paprika]

The disabler has always taken 3 shots to stun someone. I made it ONE less stamina damage so ONLY people at 100% health will be able to take 4 shots. They will be slowed to DURAND SPEED at 99 stamina damage. It's only to allow disablers to be counterable by hulks and the like. It's a very common method of game balancing, making it ALMOST 3 shots to kill rather than 3 outright.

[soulgamer]

So what will this do to stun revolvers? Will R&D be crafting shit loads of them for sec or are they getting changed as well?

[paprika]

All electrode based weapons have had their range reduced to 7 tiles (basically on-screen range)

Stun revolvers are more or less larger capacity tasers, and always have been