Vote for stun overhauls

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Moderators: MisterPerson, Code Maintainers

So what is the better option?

Mix the two in some way
11
4%
Mix the two in some way
11
4%
Mix the two in some way
11
4%
Ergovisavi's stun overhaul
17
6%
Ergovisavi's stun overhaul
17
6%
Ergovisavi's stun overhaul
17
6%
Paprika's stun overhaul
22
8%
Paprika's stun overhaul
22
8%
Paprika's stun overhaul
22
8%
Both are shite
41
15%
Both are shite
41
15%
Both are shite
41
15%
 
Total votes : 273

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Razharas
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Vote for stun overhauls

Postby Razharas » Wed Dec 10, 2014 11:03 pm #49607



So since we have 2 stun overhauls in queue which are not fully compatibe with one another, heres the thread with poll to decide which is the better one



https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/6285 - Ergovisavi's pull request
https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/6293 - Paprika's pull request



General discussion on the changes and discriptions of both overhauls - https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=2214



You can choose as many options as you want, also chance the choise since both pull requests can be updated with something new
If moderators would like to merge the discussion thread with this poll so be it



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Re: Vote for stun overhauls

Postby Jalleo » Wed Dec 10, 2014 11:07 pm #49608

Blend of both please.

Just go get that coder blender

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Re: Vote for stun overhauls

Postby Aleph » Wed Dec 10, 2014 11:18 pm #49611

I like paprika's since it's more of an incremental change instead of a radical one

Though I like disarms and punches draining stamina so knockdowns aren't nearly as dependent on RNG

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Re: Vote for stun overhauls

Postby Aranclanos » Wed Dec 10, 2014 11:53 pm #49619

I don't think we should rush to the votes without playing them, both of them. (also we don't have to pick, we can take what we think it's best from both and make some mix, but we should all play first)
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Re: Vote for stun overhauls

Postby Razharas » Thu Dec 11, 2014 12:05 am #49622

How make people play it first, its hard enough with one overhaul and with two incompatible ones i dunno how to do this(apart from merging - sos updating - playing - revering - merging new one - sos updating - playing - reverting - deciding, which is long even in words, and in practice i bet none will bother and first one to merge will stay in forever)
Also theres option for "Merge the two in some way"

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Re: Vote for stun overhauls

Postby Cuboos » Thu Dec 11, 2014 1:14 am #49635

Paprika's is the best i think, the nerf for tasers isn't ridiculous. They can still onehit stun, but now you won't see stun bolts flying everywhere. Not to mention i've had so many fucking rounds as a tator ending because there was no way to escape or retaliate after being stunned. Paprika's looks the fairest. How ever there a few key features of Ergo's that i like. Namely water slip nerf and unarmed damages stamina more than brute.

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Re: Vote for stun overhauls

Postby Reimoo » Thu Dec 11, 2014 2:02 am #49642

I feel Ergo's would fuck security over too much. Paprika's is much more balanced.

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Re: Vote for stun overhauls

Postby lumipharon » Thu Dec 11, 2014 2:13 am #49644

Water slipping is literally the most realistic thing in this game, bar none. Water on smooth floors is dangerous as shit. Try spill a bucket of water on a polished floor and run through it, see what happens.

I prefer pap's change overall, but I would be fine with playtesting both, and I'm sure they will evolve from where they are currenly anyway.

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Re: Vote for stun overhauls

Postby Steelpoint » Thu Dec 11, 2014 4:57 am #49677

Ergo's change is literally replacing Taser guns with Nerf Guns. Its a very severe reshaping of the game to its core and I don't think it takes the game in a good direction. As I pointed out its going to make Security just use Flashbangs and Teargas forever as they stun instantly.

Paprika's change is more subtle and less overt. Tasers are still useful but now there is a really good reason to use a Disabler over a Taser.

I think we need to actually see these two changes in game first before we can make a concrete decision on which is better.
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Re: Vote for stun overhauls

Postby MisterPerson » Thu Dec 11, 2014 6:41 am #49696

I'd go for pap's if he just removed the taser outright as part of it. Barring that, I'm torn but willing to try Ergo's out.
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Re: Vote for stun overhauls

Postby Lo6a4evskiy » Thu Dec 11, 2014 12:58 pm #49761

Ergo's is just nerfing ranged stuns without taking ANYTHING into account to balance it.

Pap's isn't much of a stun overhaul, it's more like weapon overhaul. It doesn't balance it out either, but it's actually not that big of a change, to be honest. I'd like to see where that would go.

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Re: Vote for stun overhauls

Postby RG4 » Thu Dec 11, 2014 1:14 pm #49768

I'd vote to have current stun system with tasers at a limited range while having a long range, disable function. Eguns unaffected.

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Re: Vote for stun overhauls

Postby Wyzack » Thu Dec 11, 2014 1:49 pm #49773

I think Paps is easily the better of the two. I would urge the people voting neither to consider that maybe a change to our combat system could turn out really cool
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Re: Vote for stun overhauls

Postby dezzmont » Thu Dec 11, 2014 2:14 pm #49781

Changing the stun system changes everything about the game on its head and has dramatic ramifications for every future change.

Paprika clearly put a whole lot more thought into this change in how it affects the game than Ergo did, but it still feels like stuns were arbitrarily targeted rather than the combat system as a whole. It is heavily focused on security and not on what stuns fundementally do to the game. That said it is more heavily focused than Ergo's and is going after a very specific phenomina: infinitely ranged projectile stuns. Ergos kinda sprawls all over the place and isn't remotely consistent in what it is trying to do.

That said Paprika's change could be good for the game and take it in an interesting direction as long as this shit is heavily monitored and tweaked. This isn't a fire and forget patch, this is one of those things that is going to need lots of little balance patches you see big name games aiming to be compeitive do. Everything in the game is balanced around stuns, and this commit will be a huge
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Also having officers spawn with tasers really is nice, they are too important a tool to not spawn with them and unlike yellow gloves there is a need to reduce the spares lying about rather than increase them. Officers transfer in all the time and joining late into a round and seeing that you have only the baton to work with is crippling.

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Re: Vote for stun overhauls

Postby WJohnston » Thu Dec 11, 2014 3:50 pm #49797

Guys. Paprika's stun overhaul doesn't target melee RNG at all. Ergo's does and also makes armor worth a damn there.
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Re: Vote for stun overhauls

Postby dezzmont » Thu Dec 11, 2014 4:07 pm #49800

Ergo's stun overhall is a lot less targeted in end goal. It affects more stuff but pulls things in different directions.

I dislike SS13 RNG, but Paprika's stun overhaul has clear design intent behind it. Things were not changed just to be changed, or left alone to be left alone, Paprika deliberately avoided changing things needlessly and cleary tried to make a very targeted tweek towards projectile ranged stuns, where as Ergo tries to hit everything but still ends up missing a lot and has dubious motivations for leaving certain things in. Because Paprika focused more we can ignore stuff like the revolver or syringe gun not being affected, because they do not have the qualities Papria targeted. Because Ergo tried to make this a general stun update and failed to mess with a whole bunch of stuff and left other things in without an eye toward design, we absolutely shouldn't use it.

A melee update needs to happen, but we shouldn't blob out to do it or just do whatever. This is, as other people pointed out, a massive change. It needs to be very precise and tuned. If that means holding off on changing melee, which generally underpreforms due to limitations of byond, that is fine, because we still are bringing things closer to level rather than tossing shit out every which way. Even if we were to go with Ergos change it would need to be chopped up and implimented in phases, like it was a finished commit ready for final roll out, when in reality it still is a first step.
Last edited by dezzmont on Thu Dec 11, 2014 4:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Vote for stun overhauls

Postby Steelpoint » Thu Dec 11, 2014 4:09 pm #49801

I may well be wrong but I feel that Ergo's overhaul was born out of frustration with the current system and only looks so far as to remove stuns from the game, and not far enough into the ramifications of such a act.
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Re: Vote for stun overhauls

Postby dezzmont » Thu Dec 11, 2014 4:13 pm #49802

Steelpoint wrote:I may well be wrong but I feel that Ergo's overhaul was born out of frustration with the current system and only looks so far as to remove stuns from the game, and not far enough into the ramifications of such a act.

Indeed. I like the removal of the RNG from melee but it clearly didn't have a lot of design thought behind it.

"To lord it over the station" is not a reason to make mops the most powerful stun effect in the game. The janitor functionally can lay invisible minefields, lets not sell that as a minor quirk, it is a big deal.

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Re: Vote for stun overhauls

Postby Ergovisavi » Thu Dec 11, 2014 5:08 pm #49815

Steelpoint wrote:I may well be wrong but I feel that Ergo's overhaul was born out of frustration with the current system and only looks so far as to remove stuns from the game, and not far enough into the ramifications of such a act.


And where, exactly, did I not look?

Stuns don't go away. There's still there. They're just not instant one shots at range. You brought up pepper spray as a comment in that PR. What of it? Yes, it's still instant. It's also an incredibly easily blocked three tile, slow projectile. You mentioned flashbangs. What of them? Their functionality isn't any different than now. They're currently a fullscreen instant stun, far better than tasers, assuming that someone is in a confined area.

Melee stuns weren't changed. You mention cultists' talismans still being Weaken(10). What of it? Stun batons are still Weaken(7), and you do not claim they were buffed. Cultists are not suddenly going to become ultra, hyper robust because their stun values went from 10 to the exact same value of 10.

Please enlighten me.

Paprika's change isn't really a change. We go from Person X pulling out a taser and instantly stunning you to... Person X pulling out a taser and instantly stunning you. Truly, shaking the foundations. Yes, what I'm doing is altering the entirety of how combat is generally resolved (Tase, followed by Handcuff, Laser, or beatdown). Why is that a bad thing?

The janitor functionally can lay invisible minefields, lets not sell that as a minor quirk, it is a big deal.


The janitor can do that right now. ANYONE can do this right now, with a beaker of water. And there isn't even a wait time!

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Re: Vote for stun overhauls

Postby Alex Crimson » Thu Dec 11, 2014 5:46 pm #49820

Eh i prefer Ergo's PR. Mostly because it actually removes insta-one shot stuns, which is the main issue i have with the current meta of SS13 combat. Paprika has some nice ideas with making Disabler projectiles pass through windows, and changing Eguns "stun" setting to "disable", but if i had to choose one PR to merge, id go with Ergo. Overall it would be nice to get a mix of the two.

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Re: Vote for stun overhauls

Postby Steelpoint » Thu Dec 11, 2014 5:47 pm #49822

Hell, you could just make Tasers have a far more limited range, say five tiles. The good thing is that its pretty easy to change values around based on feedback.
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Re: Vote for stun overhauls

Postby Wyzack » Thu Dec 11, 2014 6:15 pm #49827

If we cannot instantly stun people at all, security is going to be completely shit.
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Re: Vote for stun overhauls

Postby Alex Crimson » Thu Dec 11, 2014 6:51 pm #49834

Worth it to balance boring overpowered stuns.

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Re: Vote for stun overhauls

Postby whodaloo » Thu Dec 11, 2014 6:58 pm #49835

Wyzack wrote:If we cannot instantly stun people at all, security is going to be completely shit.

Regardless of the pull request we go with sec will still have stun batons.
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Re: Vote for stun overhauls

Postby dezzmont » Thu Dec 11, 2014 7:01 pm #49836

Alex Crimson wrote:Worth it to balance boring overpowered stuns.

Boring overpowered stuns are a major ass part of the game. Preventing security from ever arresting people would have a disasterous effect on gameplay as security is designed to be the stick used to beat overt players down. Forget about griffing, active overt traitor would be too easy.

Security as it is is designed to be overcomable but not something you want to clash with. The combat system and damage codes assume that you need to partially immobilize your target. Removing stuns from the game completely would result in a much less lethal game.

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Re: Vote for stun overhauls

Postby Alex Crimson » Thu Dec 11, 2014 7:39 pm #49851

You are being way too dramatic. Sec will still be able to stun people, it just wont be one shot. Stuns are not being removed, just harder to inflict on players.

EDIT: Did MisterPerson lock the wrong thread? I thought the other one was for discussion, and this one for the voting.
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Re: Vote for stun overhauls

Postby Wyzack » Thu Dec 11, 2014 7:59 pm #49860

Do you ever play sec? Without instant stuns it will be complete misery. Both pulls keep the stun batons in anyways, which is good. Removing them entirely would be shit
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Re: Vote for stun overhauls

Postby Alex Crimson » Thu Dec 11, 2014 8:11 pm #49870

How would it be misery? Hitting someone with a Disabler slows them down. If they are in melee range, use Pepperspray or Stun Baton. If they are in a confined area, use a Flashbang. All of these options are infinitely better than pulling out a Taser and shooting someone once ggnore.

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Re: Vote for stun overhauls

Postby danno » Thu Dec 11, 2014 8:12 pm #49872

It all sounds real easy when you say it like that, but I don't think it will play how you want it to in practice. We'll have to see, I guess, since votes never matter and one or both are gonna get merged anyways.
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Re: Vote for stun overhauls

Postby dezzmont » Thu Dec 11, 2014 8:33 pm #49875

I don't take an issue with the idea of the disabler being the enforced standard. I take issue with why it is the standard.

One change is unfocued and very much based on one person's feelings. There was little thought in terms of this change holistically, no rhyme or reason, and yet the change is presented as a complete cure all, but comes across as a mess of contradictory ideals. Janitor is meant to lord over an already extremely powerful tool over the station when its sec's actual job to "lord over" the station its ability to instantly disable people who elect not to run and they lost their primary tool? Flashbangs are unchanged? Why? That will just encourage really shitty behavior from sec. If this is a complete change why are drugs the same despite being worse in many ways? What about the detective gun and combat shotguns? Will those be completely standard now or are you nerfing them too? It looks like they are going to be two shot KO's with no armor, which is silly ecause requiring someone to click on a moving sprite directly multiple times is insane.

Paprika instead created a much more targeted change aimed at altering the behavior of ranged projectiles that meshes better with the overall game and intentions of security, because ideally you should be able to outrun sec for a little while and not get gunned down by cone fire if you are in certain hallways. It doesn't attempt to re-work the entire combat system, just a specific behavior, and it does so in a targeted way. Future changes could work off this one very well because it is targeting specific behaviors and interactions and not a meaningless attack at a mechanic.

One is reactionary and doesn't understand what it is doing because it gets hung up on "Stuns are bad" without understanding what stuns are there for and how far players will go to keep them. The other is a calculated change that aims at tweaking a system and specific scenarios as they currently happen, while attempting to change as little as possible needlessly or as a pre-emptive panic measure. After we get those scenarios to a place we want them then we start looking at others. If range stuns and escapes are already easy we may for example not want melee combat to be consistent at all withotu a weapon.

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Re: Vote for stun overhauls

Postby paprika » Thu Dec 11, 2014 8:38 pm #49876

Steelpoint wrote:Hell, you could just make Tasers have a far more limited range, say five tiles. The good thing is that its pretty easy to change values around based on feedback.

This, if on-screen range is still too OP for tasers/stunrevolvers/advtasers/adveguns I can VERY easily adjust their range. I set up the code for projectiles to adapt to any range by tweaking one number. OOP as fuck!
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Re: Vote for stun overhauls

Postby paprika » Thu Dec 11, 2014 8:51 pm #49878

It would be pretty funny though to see sec mag dumping disablers into people when they want to arrest them rather than tasing them, but that's some awful gameplay.
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Re: Vote for stun overhauls

Postby Alex Crimson » Thu Dec 11, 2014 8:57 pm #49882

Once again, Disablers slow the target down. Its not like you are being asked to click on a moving target 3 times whilst they run at max speed. Combat Shotguns and lethal weapons will not stun, they will do stamina damage. Sec using lethal force unnecessarily is a good way to get yourself banned. Drugs require you to... inject the guy. Paprika seems to be changing ranged combat in a very similar way to Ergo, its just Paprika doesnt outright remove Tasers.

Being able to instantly down virtually any target with a single shot is bullshit. The meta heavily favors stuns and people who stun first generally win. It shitty and needs to be changed.

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Re: Vote for stun overhauls

Postby dezzmont » Thu Dec 11, 2014 9:06 pm #49885

You keep on acting like hitting moving targets, even slow moving targets, is easy. Sec has access to less-lethal shotgun and revolver rounds and WILL use them if they are objectively better than their original tools, and admins will probably allow it. Drugs require you to have a syringe gun.

Paprika's change specifically tagets the ability to stun at infinite range during chases. It makes escaping from sec rather hard while still allowing sec to roll in, mash face, and beat any individual who thinks that the game is about openly fighting security and winning.

Ergo's change is broad and untargeted. It isn't trying to cause specific outcomes. It is trying to remove stuns and make it easier for people to openly fight each other and sec, which has negative reprecusions for rounds such as rev and cult and makes it much easier to brazenly commit crimes and run. It also makes it extremely hard for sec to deal with multiple targets, even as a group, without busting out the flash bangs. And they will bust out the flash bangs. Securing their own personal space also becomes impossible.

The meta heavily favors stuns for a reason. It did not come about randomly and things have been built around it. You can't pretend stunning is the ultimate evil, a lot of gameplay you probably enjoy is possible because stuns exist. Stuns are strong in order to allow security to effectively take all comers who decide to stand and fight who are not very specific types of antags. That is the desired outcome, not something that should be removed. 1v1 a sec officer should have a better than 50% chance to beat most people. 2 sec officers should easily wreck even traitors unless the traitor is very quick, clever, cowardly, or lucky. Sec is in many ways the NPC antagonist in a stealth game to the traitors. You may decide its worth it to fight them and let them know you are there, but the game is deliberately balanced so that rushing at them and firing wildly will result in a near instant game over.

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Re: Vote for stun overhauls

Postby Aleph » Thu Dec 11, 2014 9:55 pm #49898

The only problem I have is that having such radical changes means it needs to be balanced against every kind of situation, not just traitors but stuff like xenos, nuke ops, and the such. Dezzmont's changes looks in my opinion to be yet another unnecessary proxy nerf to syndie hardsuits which are already one of the worst set of armor in the game.

I expect heavy changes to be checked to make sure it doesn't break the balance and not to 'get back' at a certain department for IC or meta things

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Re: Vote for stun overhauls

Postby Alex Crimson » Thu Dec 11, 2014 9:58 pm #49900

and you make it seem like hitting a slowed target is hard. Syringe guns are 1-shot and require tedious loading. I doubt admins will be lenient to Sec Officers who insist on using lethal force to stop people "because stuns are harder now". Although i am not an admin, so i will not try to speak for them.

Ergo's change isnt untargeted. It targets stuns in general, which as ive been saying, are silly and need to be nerfed. The meta favors them because they are just miles better than any other form of combat. If you gun has a stun option, then you use it. You hit someone once and the fight is over. Then just switch to laser and shot them until your gun is out of charge. That is literally the meta, and it sucks. Sec will still be able to take people on, because all guns are affected. Sec still has access to more firepower, armor and pepperspray/flashbangs which keep their strong ability to insta-stun.

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Re: Vote for stun overhauls

Postby Incomptinence » Thu Dec 11, 2014 10:58 pm #49912

Current flashbangs were nerfed by HG but the protection was left untouched values for quite a long time. Pepper spray (the spray can delivery method) is countered easily and even in ideal conditions the stun is so quickly over if you blink you will miss it.

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Re: Vote for stun overhauls

Postby oranges » Thu Dec 11, 2014 11:23 pm #49915

I'm pushing for both changes to be trialled on sybil for a week each, before we actually decide which one works better.

Ideally people will be notified well in advance of this.

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Re: Vote for stun overhauls

Postby MisterPerson » Fri Dec 12, 2014 3:24 am #49966

I don't want two threads on the same subject. I don't care which is the primary and which gets locked and I figured the thread with the poll was more useful than the one without.
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mikecari
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Re: Vote for stun overhauls

Postby mikecari » Mon Dec 29, 2014 10:58 pm #54259

Jesus christ, no one wanted this to be merged and yet it still was. It's like no one gives a shit about the playerbase at this point.

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Loonikus
 
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Re: Vote for stun overhauls

Postby Loonikus » Mon Dec 29, 2014 11:25 pm #54266

I support Papricas change for the following reasons:

Combat is now more fun: Stunning the enemy is no longer winning instantly. It heavily reduces the gross reliance on the stupidly one sided stun mechanic we have all come to rely on. Fights are no longer stun+laser+laser+laser+laser. Ranged combat actually consists of combat at range instead of stunning people, running up to them, and wailing on them with a blunt object until they stop twitching.

Lethal weapons are now lethal because they are lethal weapons: Before the change, guns were only deadly because they stunned you. Laser guns were absolutely pointless because they couldn't stun anyone. SMGs from R&D were useless because they couldn't stun anyone. Syndicate revolvers weren't dangerous because they couldn't stun anyone. All these supposedly deadly weapons were overlooked because stuns were the king of combat. Why would I go through the trouble of researching an SMG and emagging the container just so one security officer can instantly drop me with the taser he starts with? Why would I invest in an L6 GPMG when one stray bolt is going to make me drop it and hold still while the assistant picks it up and blows off my fucking head with it? After the change, I can use lethal weapons to their full, lethal effect without the entire security team and God knows who else packing just as much firepower as me at all times.

Its balanced for antags while still keeps security relevant: Both security and most antagonists have to actually get close to instantly stun someone now. However, security still has access to ranged stuns (although not instant ones) while the typical crewman has access to none at all. This means security still has a notable advantage over typical criminal scum while antagonists who actually invest in getting potent ranged weapons get an advantage over the typical security officer.

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Re: Vote for stun overhauls

Postby Incomptinence » Tue Dec 30, 2014 12:08 am #54287

You think the revolver non dangerous? 60 brute damage 2 shots full health individuals. Someone can just run up and unload 2 shots in your face bam dead, if it was not for the loud sound it would make good old parapens look like babies. Maybe you mean the stechkin?

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Loonikus
 
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Re: Vote for stun overhauls

Postby Loonikus » Tue Dec 30, 2014 12:24 am #54292

I was thinking more along the lines of using it in a gunfight but yes, if you get the drop on someone its robust as hell.

The point is that in a fight, stuns were king. The revolver may do 60 brute, but the taser could do 200 if the user wanted it to.

Aleph
 
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Re: Vote for stun overhauls

Postby Aleph » Tue Dec 30, 2014 3:05 am #54335

Ops never touched the 40 TC machine gun when they could get a CR-20 for 14 and get a package that was essentially 20 taser shots with damage on top. Of course now the SMG's objectively worse than the assault rifle they can buy for 3 crystals more and get much more lethality but that was the meta at the time.

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paprika
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Re: Vote for stun overhauls

Postby paprika » Tue Dec 30, 2014 3:12 am #54337

I'm gonna rework Operative equipment, maybe making the c20r shoot 3-round bursts and be default gear. We'll see.
Oldman Robustin wrote:It's an established meme that coders don't play this game.

rockpecker
 
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Re: Vote for stun overhauls

Postby rockpecker » Tue Dec 30, 2014 3:13 am #54338

Aleph wrote:Ops never touched the 40 TC machine gun when they could get a CR-20 for 14 and get a package that was essentially 20 taser shots with damage on top. Of course now the SMG's objectively worse than the assault rifle they can buy for 3 crystals more and get much more lethality but that was the meta at the time.


I don't know why nukeops are even relevant here. Most rounds don't have nukeops; every round has security, and assistants with spears.
Remove the AI.

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Re: Vote for stun overhauls

Postby Alex Crimson » Tue Dec 30, 2014 3:18 am #54342

Nuke Op rounds are usually big firefights with lots of shooting and more of the advanced weapons/stuns. Id say its relevant.


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