[POLL] Security Sprite Changes

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Thu Dec 11, 2014 9:19 am #49720

Paprika has put up a PR that replaces the current Security sprites with entirely new one's that mainly revert the Helmet/Armour to the old sprite style and makes the jumpsuit more red.

Link to PR: https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/6317

Below are the two options. On the left is the current (OLD) Security sprites, on the right are the proposed (NEW) Security sprites.

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Thu Dec 11, 2014 9:24 am #49721

Man your screenshots come out really fucked up BTW.

soulgamer · Post by **soulgamer** » Thu Dec 11, 2014 9:31 am #49723

Why are we removing the trademark red suits in favor of making sec look like a bastard half breed of the lawyer and detective?

The entire point of a uniform is so that any individual looking can know that "Hey that guy is a sec officer". The uniform of a police officer carries a lot of weight. It is a symbol of the position and the power it holds. That is why impersonating a police officer is a big no no. This new look is not different enough from other outfits on the station to be able to easily identify them as security or just the lawyer in armor.

This is a change that is not just pointless but detrimental to security. If you are bound and determined to change sec uniforms change them to something that is easily identifiable.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Thu Dec 11, 2014 9:36 am #49725

I think the current Security Officer/Warden/HoS uniforms are perfectly fine as they stand.

I created this thread to bring this potential change to the attention of the greater community, as Paprika has clearly stated he has no intention of taking my feedback seriously.

whodaloo · Post by **whodaloo** » Thu Dec 11, 2014 9:40 am #49726

I'd argue that a fucking helmet and body armor are plenty identifiable as far as officers go, especially considering the nuke ops change that is also included in the PR means they don't need armor and a helmet due to hardsuit buffs.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Thu Dec 11, 2014 9:44 am #49727

Pap's idea reminds me more of a Lawyer during a Rev round than a actual Security Officer. Red is a iconic appearance of the Security Officer and the current uniform is perfectly fine, and paprika has not given a good explanation as to why he wants to change the uniform aside from...

I'm really not a fan of dark red ausops

This PR is not getting merged without my armor sprites, I'm holding my cool syndicate feature HOSTAGE until you comply with my demands of merging my awesome armor and helmets too

I don't really care sec being mean black and edgy is crap

I don't really give a shit about your opinion on this

(Also he's removing the Sec Hailer voice function from the Sec Gas masks, and the 10 melee armour from the jumpsuits, just mentioned that on the bottom)

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Thu Dec 11, 2014 10:01 am #49729

Honestly I only did the mall cop thing because people mentioned sec looked too mean and I think the real issue is the ausops sec officer uniform, the red on it is really muted compared to the warden and HoS, i don't like it at all.

Random Players · Thu Dec 11, 2014 11:28 am

Current is: "Oh, it's security."
Paprika's is: "Get the fuck out of here, assistant!"

To me, at least. Simply due to the overall 'feeling' the colors and armors give off.

RogerWilco · Post by **RogerWilco** » Thu Dec 11, 2014 11:44 am #49743

Eugh, mall cops.

danno · Post by **danno** » Thu Dec 11, 2014 11:50 am #49746

nah fuck this security looks great as is

RG4 · Post by **RG4** » Thu Dec 11, 2014 11:52 am #49747

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Thu Dec 11, 2014 12:17 pm #49751

Ok, Paprika redid his Security Sprite change slightly. He removed the white mallcop jumpsuit. I've updated the OP with the new sprites, and I've (attempted to) reset the poll. At the time of the change the poll as at 9 against and 2 for.

Personal note, while I think the jumpsuit change is fine, I disagree with him reverting the helmet/armour back to the old style, not to mention we already had that debate/vote a month ago and most people voted to keep the new armour sprites over the old ones (https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=1982)

Akkryls · Post by **Akkryls** » Thu Dec 11, 2014 12:24 pm #49753

danno wrote:nah fuck this security looks great as is

Currently, you know they're Security just by seeing red jumpsuits.
Now they just look like assistants or lawyers who have stolen Sec equipment.

Post change edit: Eh, I can live with different shades of red.

Post by **lumipharon** » Thu Dec 11, 2014 12:41 pm #49756

Current suits have more detail, pap's new red ones look rather featureless.

danno · Post by **danno** » Thu Dec 11, 2014 12:47 pm #49758

opinion is still the same
you say they look "faded" but they mesh so much better than these new ones

Lo6a4evskiy · Post by **Lo6a4evskiy** » Thu Dec 11, 2014 12:51 pm #49759

I prefer pap's sprites. It's really just subjective. What we need is a) screenshots of them in the game, not zoomed in ten times and b) less drama.

TheWulfe · Post by **TheWulfe** » Thu Dec 11, 2014 12:58 pm #49762

Why are there two completely different changes on one commit? Kind of weird to include nuke op functionality with a sprite changes. Anyway

Sec sprite change.
Current black/red is really good. Current armor has vastly improved in color and detail. The armor change/revert literally only has a 3 shades of grey color palette from years ago.

People know flat out that anyone wearing that combined jumpsuit armor color scheme is a security officer in a power position. It has a certain presence to it that I'm sure some armchair psychologist could better explain.
Don't like it.

Nuke op change:
It's yet ANOTHER thing I have to hope to god my fellow ops know how to do on a checklist among plenty that they don't blow cover/spotted in maint/don't veer off into random space/die of exposure or air/grab a pinpointer. Especially In an antag role that requires much less bloat.

That, and the only reason people would ever take off the hardsuit (it's rare beyond stealth from what I've seen) for combat purposes is extra movespeed. You could just satisfy the entire problem by just removing the speed penalty without having to complicate the whole process with hardsuit modes. I'm a fan of Keep It Simple. I'm sure lore-wise the syndicate are supplying their agents with the best combat hard-suits for speed.

For the actual modes themselves.
For armor, You're giving up space and syringe protection for speed.
For helmet, You're again giving up space and syringe protection for stealth/NVG usability.
Seems more like an overcomplicated nerf just Null valuing cold and syringe protection for stuff they already have naturally but having to go through modes to cycle to it. The speed penalty removal is the only thing good here.
Overall, don't like it.

That criticism aside...

Paprika should quit grudge-coding security attire already. Not everything that makes a person go, 'Oh, that looks cool.' is 'edgy cosplay' in his words.

Wyzack · Post by **Wyzack** » Thu Dec 11, 2014 1:06 pm #49764

I like the old sprites better, more black. That said, wouldn't be sad to see hailers go, they are only ever used to spam law because LOLSOFANNY as far as i have seen. But yeah, keep the oldsprites

RG4 · Post by **RG4** » Thu Dec 11, 2014 1:12 pm #49766

Pap's look like the older security sorties with better detail. Don't try to fix what isn't broke you dorf. Unneeded changes aren't required when nobody fucking complains

Aleph · Post by **Aleph** » Thu Dec 11, 2014 1:34 pm #49770

The new sec sprites honestly look worse than the old ones, when the current art direction is for MORE detail. They also look too much like two greyshirt jumpsuits variants which can cause confusion.

Break off the syndie changes onto its own PR because trying to get this through is honestly going to cause Slowspace 3.0: Even Slower

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Thu Dec 11, 2014 1:56 pm #49775

To prevent confusion, from this point forward the definitions of the two sprites are such that the Current Security sprites in game should be called the OLD sprites, while Paprika's sprites should be called either the NEW sprites or PAPRIKA'S sprites.

This is to avoid confusion. Thank you.

Wyzack · Post by **Wyzack** » Thu Dec 11, 2014 1:57 pm #49777

Paprikas helmet makes your head look kinda misshapen from the side, and the armor makes you look fat. This is personally why i do not like it

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Thu Dec 11, 2014 6:21 pm #49829

But it doesn't, both are the exact same shape as the ausops helmet/armors

Ikarrus · Post by **Ikarrus** » Thu Dec 11, 2014 6:27 pm #49830

I like pap's helmet since it looks less like a plastic bike helmet.

But the old vest is best.

Middle ground pls

danno · Post by **danno** » Thu Dec 11, 2014 7:34 pm #49847

i think paprika's looks more plastic if anything
this isn't supposed to be mean but ausop's sprites are just better.
what is the point of this?

iyaerP · Post by **iyaerP** » Thu Dec 11, 2014 7:41 pm #49854

Wait, why is sec losing jumpsuit protection and the IAMTHELAW? That is far more important that minor sprite differences.

Malkevin · Post by **Malkevin** » Thu Dec 11, 2014 7:46 pm #49855

Apparently 10% damage reduction on arms is too OP.

And Sec Masks are just a bit of fun, and we all know what happens to fun.

Post by **MisterPerson** » Thu Dec 11, 2014 7:55 pm #49857

Yes, removing the gas masks is entirely because we hate fun. Has nothing to do with the "faceless goon" appearance it gives security. Has nothing to do with the proliferation of gas masks and encouraging all security to powergame via constantly having the gas mask equipped "just in case". Has nothing to do with reducing the rsc file size by a good chunk by cutting out a bunch of sounds. Has nothing to do with the failure of the security gas masks at being a way for security to tell criminals to stop and instead being used by people spamming. No no, it's none of that, it's an irrational hatred of things people find fun. That makes far more sense.

The damage reduction should be part of the armor. Having it on the jumpsuit is just a hidden feature that adds nothing but increased complexity. It also encourages people to steal security jumpsuits and wear them constantly, which is really stupid.

Wyzack · Post by **Wyzack** » Thu Dec 11, 2014 7:57 pm #49858

I know they are the same size, they just give the impression of making you look fat/misshapen head. Hence why old sprites have won this vote by a pretty large margin

danno · Post by **danno** » Thu Dec 11, 2014 8:02 pm #49861

iyaerP wrote:Wait, why is sec losing jumpsuit protection and the IAMTHELAW? That is far more important that minor sprite differences.

i'm not even against this but why make the topic so misleading if it isn't just sprite changes??

why are you all out to be dicks?? why don't you ever just work together??

Malkevin · Post by **Malkevin** » Thu Dec 11, 2014 8:02 pm #49864

I can count the number of people I've arrested for stealing a security uniform on one hand, thats after four years of heavy sec play.
Arrested a fair few for jackboots though, especially Miku - she loved her lesbo boots

You're talking about a problem that doesn't exist.

By the way, a huge part of the appeal of this game is the large background complexity of it. If everything was straight forward, boiled down to the dumbest denominator I know I would've lost interest after only a few months

danno · Post by **danno** » Thu Dec 11, 2014 8:03 pm #49865

aren't we always?

Reimoo · Post by **Reimoo** » Thu Dec 11, 2014 8:49 pm #49877

Poll needs a combination of both option.

I prefer the old helmet style better because like Ikarrus said the current helmet looks like a bike helmet. The red on pap's sprites are better too, but the sprite itself seems a little too simple. I would prefer if we could raise the saturation on the current sprites colors and switch the helmet styles.

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Thu Dec 11, 2014 8:52 pm #49879

PR updated.

https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/6317

Incomptinence · Thu Dec 11, 2014 8:52 pm

Security gasmask is fantastic. For stopping people you want to question though not full on criminals why would you expect that?

Paprika's new gasmask sprite doesn't make sec faceless the helmet does. Unless you think HURR HURR FACLESS GOON every time you see someone in an emergency oxygen mask.

Is this against new paprika sprites or what? Would hate to lose papmask one sprite they made I liked.

Parts of sec are set up to n2o flood mister person hence the masks, sheesh you hate security.

Malkevin · Post by **Malkevin** » Thu Dec 11, 2014 9:33 pm #49891

Yeah, new mask sprites show more face than breath masks do.

They also would've been a lot less stereotypical faceless goon if you listened to the will of the author, me, to keep the intentionally goofy looking original sprites.
And I did suggest the alternative option of instead putting the voice caster on the armor instead.

Oh, and if you really want to bring up the "But they bloat the rsc!!!"
The complionator folder is a fuck all 411 KB, compared to 5.09 MB required by the vox_female folder to let the AIs occasionally broadcast "Captain is Comdom, Ass Blast USA, ASS Blast USA, Johnson Inspection Required in Shower, WHOOP WHOOP!"

Post by **oranges** » Thu Dec 11, 2014 9:41 pm #49893

Also they weren't actually removed as far as I can see. Since the sechailer is still in the game, it was just removed from security gasmasks.

So there is no benefit to RSC size afaik

Aleph · Post by **Aleph** » Thu Dec 11, 2014 9:46 pm #49895

Wasn't the complinator added because Security fell into the meta of stun first, questions later since people won't stand still long enough for the player to type things out

Also if you have to move it, make it an armor addon

Post by **lumipharon** » Fri Dec 12, 2014 1:39 am #49939

The soundss for the sec mask were almost never used for proper purposes, and usually just served as a good indication of shitcurity.
I remember before we had sec masks we had loads of officers that would wear normal gas mask. Some people like the faceless goon look. I do not. Helmet + mask makes you goon as shit.

I have only ever seen people steal sec jumpsuits to impersonate security. I have NEVER, in two years, seen anyone steal it for the protection. Also you can't even get sec jumpsuits anymore, outside of the brig/cargo crates.
Also how is it invisible armor? dermal patch was invisible, sec jumpsuits are not. Hell, you can even see the kneepads and whatnot.

The real issue for me though is the current sprites look GOOD, especially for the jumpsuit, helmet/armor. They have far more definition then Pap's proposed sprites, which look extremely flat in comparison.
Pap said they were inconsistent with the hos/warden jumpsuits, but it would look nicer if they were simply improved to the sec officer standard.

And please stop calling them edgy. The jumpsuits are just more washed out and have slightly more pronouced highlights/outlines, and the helmet has (for byond) shading from light to dark as it goes down.ie: light shining on it from above, or whatever. The new one looks wierd because it has a distinct dark grey rectangle above the eyes with a pale grey filling.
The armor currently looks more like an armored vest. Old/pap armor looks like a metal plate strapped to your stomach.

The new formal outfits are neat though, as are the departmental armbands. Ideally though, they would be equipable/visible over some/most/all exosuits. IE: stick it on the arm of a leather jacket.

Aleph · Post by **Aleph** » Fri Dec 12, 2014 2:21 am #49956

The dull color is because assistants spawn with light red jumpsuits.

Post by **MisterPerson** » Fri Dec 12, 2014 3:38 am #49970

Malkevin wrote:I can count the number of people I've arrested for stealing a security uniform on one hand, thats after four years of heavy sec play.
Arrested a fair few for jackboots though, especially Miku - she loved her lesbo boots

You're talking about a problem that doesn't exist.

Exactly. No one steals sec uniforms for protection. So why even have the mechanic if it literally does nothing and changes nothing except to have except a slightly increased workload in design and balance?

iyaerP · Post by **iyaerP** » Fri Dec 12, 2014 3:39 am #49971

MisterPerson wrote:
Malkevin wrote:I can count the number of people I've arrested for stealing a security uniform on one hand, thats after four years of heavy sec play.
Arrested a fair few for jackboots though, especially Miku - she loved her lesbo boots

You're talking about a problem that doesn't exist.
Exactly. No one steals sec uniforms for protection. So why even have the mechanic if it literally does nothing and changes nothing except to have except a slightly increased workload in design and balance?

Maybe so that sec officers retain part of their protection if they are wearing something other than their default armour? Like one of the 4 seperate options available to them in the armoury perchance? Or a looted syndicate hardsuit, taken victoriously from the corpse of my hated foe.

And for the record, a lot of us who play sec LIKE being faceless goons. Do I look like a red version of the combine soldiers from HL2? If so, GOOD, because that is exactly how I want to look. Like the evil, oppressive black boot of the LAW. I want traitors to fear to face me, and flee into the shadows, not have assistants decide that since I am wearing a silly beret they have a good chance of toolboxing me in the head for a free taser.

WJohnston · Post by **WJohnston** » Fri Dec 12, 2014 3:50 am #49973

Folks, in case you haven't noticed yet, the current armor covers the whole entire neck and none of the abdomen to an embarrassing extent. The current helmet and armor are also completely lacking any outlines, and the only reason why the armor "looks" okay is because the sec belt handles the entire bottom half since it's absolutely gigantic.

I admit the kneepads are nice though, and wouldn't mind seeing those on the new jumpsuits.

A bit of work can definitely be done for the proposed new (old) helmet and armor, but over all it just looks so much better with everything.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Fri Dec 12, 2014 4:39 am #49976

I should mention that paprika has split up the PR's and made a seperate PR for the sprite changes.

Here's the PR: https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/6317

Despite the overwhelming opposition, I'm going to take the bet that this gets merged nonetheless.

Post by **lumipharon** » Fri Dec 12, 2014 5:15 am #49986

Mrperson you can't say people are powergaming and stealing sec jumpsuits, and then when you get refuted say 'aha, exactly, they're not good enough for powergamers to steal therefore they shouldn't exist.

And jumpsuit protection gives a slight edge over normal crew during melee scuffles, and helps balance them out when wearing alt armor, as Steel mentioned.

I would like to see where anyone has ever found jumpsuit protection an issue in game.

Post by **MisterPerson** » Fri Dec 12, 2014 5:35 am #49992

lumipharon wrote:Mrperson you can't say people are powergaming and stealing sec jumpsuits, and then when you get refuted say 'aha, exactly, they're not good enough for powergamers to steal therefore they shouldn't exist.

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/strawman

Post by **lumipharon** » Fri Dec 12, 2014 5:48 am #49995

> Having it on the jumpsuit is just a hidden feature that adds nothing but increased complexity. It also encourages people to steal security jumpsuits and wear them constantly, which is really stupid.

>Exactly. No one steals sec uniforms for protection. So why even have the mechanic if it literally does nothing and changes nothing except to have except a slightly increased workload in design and balance?

It's not a strawman when it's exactly what you said.

Post by **MisterPerson** » Fri Dec 12, 2014 5:56 am #49996

>Having it on the jumpsuit is just a hidden feature that adds nothing but increased complexity. It also encourages people to steal security jumpsuits and wear them constantly, which is really stupid.

>It also encourages people to

>encourages

Learn to read. It ENCOURAGES them to do so and they don't do it anyway. Means it's a shitty mechanic.

Post by **lumipharon** » Fri Dec 12, 2014 6:03 am #49998

Are you really saying that the fact an item that confers some level of advantage but isn't constantly stolen by people (keeping in mind that's literally theft from sec and will get you brigged) doesn't normally happen, and is therefore 'a bad mechanic'?

Wyzack · Post by **Wyzack** » Fri Dec 12, 2014 6:33 am #50001

Yeah MrPerson, that seems like a shit reason to remove it

Which sprites do you prefer?