/tg/Station 13

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Shadowflame909 wrote:

Mickyan wrote:Now that healing is harder we can finally do the right thing and nerf antags by adding drag slowdown

This will break Xenomorphs, Slaughter-Demons, Laughter-Demons, Abductors and more.

Yet no one will give a shit except for me. Orange-Man sure as hell won't unless their monarchist behavior is just a facade and a persona.

Xenos: Good. Fuck em.
Slaughter-Demons: As above. Already laughably powerful. I wouldn't shed a tear.
Laughter-Demons: As above. Neither of the demons even goes terribly far from a blood spot anyway.
Abductors: Rarely move bodies a whole lot anyway. They don't need turbodrag to be functional when they can already perfectly pick out isolated targets.

MisterPerson wrote:

Mickyan wrote:Now that healing is harder we can finally do the right thing and nerf antags by adding drag slowdown

That's more of a way to make brigging someone take a really long time.

didn't the drag slowdown PR make it so standing people weren't affected by it?
we could just ammend the wiki where it recommends having sentence time be counted from the moment you cuff to not apply when prisoners resist being dragged by resting or adding that conduct to the crime of resisting arrest to dissuade people from making officers' lives harder

This is Shadowflame909 and your watching Half-assed PRs

If you're mad that being arrested is taking up too much of your round time either don't commit a crime or just be so blatantly valid they don't bother arresting you so if you die you can ghost or whatever

Crag, that's goofy.

Yeah, just do nothing to offend any security officer ever or they'll brig you for the slightest thing due to their incompetence / malice.

anyway, i haven't played with stasis beds but on paper they look way less fun for the patient and way more fun for the (competent) MD. The problem is the majority of players are shitters.

if an incompetent and or malicious security guard manages to sack you then how incompetent are you

just be super robust

It's been a couple of weeks
Stasis beds are very rarely used
Chemists are still blowing up their meth labs
Supplies are getting raided with increasing frequency
But on the upside cryo is getting used a lot more

So when are we going to remove cryo and cloning orange man, come on, I want to see how deep this retarded design rabbit hole goes

medibots are the new meta

CDranzer wrote:But on the upside cryo is getting used a lot more

Which part of this is the upside?

cedarbridge wrote:

CDranzer wrote:But on the upside cryo is getting used a lot more

Which part of this is the upside?

They're very nice looking tubes and it'd be a shame to see that spritework go to waste

PKPenguin321 wrote:medibots are the new meta

Time to nerf medibots. Just make them duplicate chemicals in their internal beaker and they would still be a useful tool while not being nerfed to oblivion.

CDranzer wrote: So when are we going to remove cryo and cloning orange man, come on, I want to see how deep this retarded design rabbit hole goes

*laughs menacingly*

Buff Antags Nerf Crew

Cobby wrote:

CDranzer wrote: So when are we going to remove cryo and cloning orange man, come on, I want to see how deep this retarded design rabbit hole goes

*laughs menacingly*

Cloning actually could go if the revival surgery was made standard.

Cobby wrote:

CDranzer wrote: So when are we going to remove cryo and cloning orange man, come on, I want to see how deep this retarded design rabbit hole goes

*laughs menacingly*

You think I'm kidding? Do it. I fucking dare you.

CDranzer wrote:

Cobby wrote:

CDranzer wrote: So when are we going to remove cryo and cloning orange man, come on, I want to see how deep this retarded design rabbit hole goes

*laughs menacingly*

You think I'm kidding? Do it. I fucking dare you.

just cringed to this post

i like pkpenguin

See I'm being dead serious though

I think if the coderbus does remove cloning and cryo they're going to be too stubborn to revert it but also things will get so bad that they won't be able to ignore the problems of medbay anymore

They'll be forced to come up with innovative solutions

You mean like all the surgeries that already exist?

Oranges should port baymed so that tg can finally experience The Wild Ride

CDranzer wrote:See I'm being dead serious though

I think if the coderbus does remove cloning and cryo they're going to be too stubborn to revert it but also things will get so bad that they won't be able to ignore the problems of medbay anymore

They'll be forced to come up with innovative solutions

You say that like this thread doesn't exist: https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=21360

CDranzer wrote:It's been a couple of weeks
Stasis beds are very rarely used
Chemists are still blowing up their meth labs
Supplies are getting raided with increasing frequency
But on the upside cryo is getting used a lot more

This is not true on Terry. I have been maining CMO and there stasis beds are used on almost all critical patients, almost to the point of overuse.

Supplies are getting raided at about the same frequency. not too bad.

Cryo is not used more than before in my opinion.

Most chemists are still absent or incompetent though and i often have to make the majority of the medical supplies myself.

The absence of a chemist is often fixable since there are people eager to get hired into the role with the understanding that they are required to make some essentials.

The intent is to provide players with a sense of pride and accomplishment for unlocking medical healing. As for cost, we selected initial values based upon data I pulled out of my ass. Among other things, we're looking at average per-player heal rates on a daily basis, and we'll be making constant adjustments to ensure that players have challenges that are compelling, rewarding, and of course attainable via gameplay. We appreciate the candid feedback, and the passion the community has put forth around the current topics here on Discord, digg, our forums and across numerous social media outlets. Our team will continue to make changes and monitor community feedback and update everyone as soon and as often as we can.

Funny you mention digg because there's a lot of "orange man bad" posts on there.

imsxz wrote:stasis was the buff that good medbay players needed

this but unironically.

Sleeper removal is the best thing to happen to the medical doctor role. People actually come up to me for healing, I get to use the stuff in vending machines, and I have a reason to keep people out of medical storage. When you play MD well, there is now a noticeable difference in the speed and availability of healing medicine. With sleepers you could tab out as MD and no one would notice. I’m much less bored, because even if there is downtime with no patients, I need to manage medical resources on my person and in med-bay in general. This goes doubly for CMO.

I have never needed to ask chemistry for a single chemical. The starting supplies and the supplies in the vending machines are more than enough to keep the station healthy for at least an hour. Anyone who says that medbay is reliant on chemistry for healing is 100% wrong, doesn’t play MD and bad.

10/10 doctor is actually fun again. Don’t give into the digg cry babies who are mad they lost infinite two click heals.

T. Has been saying this before the PR was even merged.

The roundstart surgery was a step in the right direction. But a neutered medbay cannot handle Nukies, Wizhole, and traitorlings on highpop.

Shadowflame909 wrote:But a neutered medbay cannot handle Nukies, Wizhole, and traitorlings on highpop.

Good. Medbay never should have been able to handle multiple high threat antagonists at once. Medbay (without sleepers) can easily handle each of those individually, and it's not like those would ever all spawn at once. Seems like a non-issue hypothetical.

Muncher21 wrote:

Shadowflame909 wrote:But a neutered medbay cannot handle Nukies, Wizhole, and traitorlings on highpop.

Good. Medbay never should have been able to handle multiple high threat antagonists at once. Medbay (without sleepers) can easily handle each of those individually, and it's not like those would ever all spawn at once. Seems like a non-issue hypothetical.

I don't think hes saying all at once but more so individually.

NoxVS wrote: I don't think hes saying all at once but more so individually.

In that case he's just wrong. Medbay starts with more than enough medical supplies to deal with any of those threats individually, without sleepers.

Unlike antagonist weapons. Medbays healing capacities are finite.

Shadowflame909 wrote:Unlike antagonist weapons. Medbays healing capacities are finite.

This is such a stupid comment I don't even know where to start.

First of all, most antagonists are limited in some way, either by ammo, or TC's or trading off stealthiness.
Secondly, the implication that medbay should be able to keep up 1:1 with antagonist activities is incorrect.
Thirdly, medbay's healing capacity is not finite. You can get more healing supplies from cargo, botany, or chemistry.
Fourthly, rounds are finite, so the chances of hitting complete zero on medical supplies is extremely low, as the shuttle should (and would) be called way before it was a problem.
Lastly, even if this was true, why is it a problem? Other departments can degrade and fail over time, why is medical any different?

because they're babies that are too afraid to lose and need hugbox features like sleepers

Muncher21 wrote:

Shadowflame909 wrote:Unlike antagonist weapons. Medbays healing capacities are finite.

This is such a stupid comment I don't even know where to start.

First of all, most antagonists are limited in some way, either by ammo, or TC's or trading off stealthiness.
Secondly, the implication that medbay should be able to keep up 1:1 with antagonist activities is incorrect.
Thirdly, medbay's healing capacity is not finite. You can get more healing supplies from cargo, botany, or chemistry.
Fourthly, rounds are finite, so the chances of hitting complete zero on medical supplies is extremely low, as the shuttle should (and would) be called way before it was a problem.
Lastly, even if this was true, why is it a problem? Other departments can degrade and fail over time, why is medical any different?

You're starting to sound like an alternate universe version of me where I agreed with coder decisions and Nerfs. But I don't.

This is such a stupid response, that I don't even know where to start!

Firstly, The gear of an antagonist doesn't matter. Any murder-boner could tell you that /tg/station offers hundreds if not thousands of ways to cause mass death that security cannot stop, and that medical cannot recover from. The ones off the top of my head include The Colossus, A Tesla, Really Potent Kudzu, Xenobiology Spiders, One Mind, Revs, A Wizard who knows what they're doing, Any of the Antagonist Random Events that can only spawn after an hour, Traitorlings. The potential for Chaos is limitless, and that's why Medical crept up so hard. To mitigate some of this.

Secondly, The implication that medical should not keep up 1:1 with antagonist potential is incorrect. See, you just wrote a sentence here and not explaining why you think that it shouldn't. But in short, the reason I think it should is simply because having Antagonists being so out of reach of the crew is how you get Antag-Like Behavior. Like Grey-tiding and Antag-Rolling, and a shitload of Escalation Abuse. The reason A game of Mafia isn't played all the time. Is because eventually, you'll get bored of not being the Killer. Here we have ways to mitigate this boredom with, I don't know maybe some "Content." If you're not keeping a department up to par with an alternative style of gameplay that isn't equal to the same amount of joy you can get from being the villain. Then you're going to get more people avoiding being anything other than the villain. The fewer people playing this game like GTA. The better. That starts with the content of Jobs. Bans are just a temporary seal.

Third. That's not medbay, that's other departments as you so say. Departmental Co-operation and all instances of it have been a joke on /tg/ and have only lead to more Escalation. It's never a fair trade because not all departments have something to gain from each other. Which leads to negotiations failing and the only way to act being aggressive. Everyone has something they want to do when they pick a Job. And they're not going to bend over to the needs of a certain department. This is excluding the fact that sometimes the person you need something from is an Antagonist and will shoot you in the face for even having a reason to go near them. On the Chemistry portion, No one wants to go home from a long day of whatever, and then get right back to work 0.5. You have to rely on one guy to have your interests in mind, and like I've said. Either they won't and you're going to have a shit time. Or you've got one of the good ones that are going to get burnt out in 3 shifts because of how tiring it is to be selfless. Then you go back to the shitty ones.

Fourth, that doesn't even apply to half of the servers now and isn't going to apply to any of them in the future. Terry is different from this standard, Sybil is different from this Standard. And Orange-Man has a plan to forcefully increase the shuttle call time to 45 minutes if they don't get their longer rounds in any other way.

Lastly, Your fourth and last argument contradict each other. We both know that when Engineering or Medical Degrade, it's shuttle call time. Because the game literally cannot function without a source of healing or a source of power. It should be one of our main goals to make it not Degrade. Otherwise, the round is over. Having a finite pool of medicine will only lead to Shorter Rounds and we know it. Like how we have a rule of 3s. SS13 is similar in the same way. The shuttle is getting called without power. The Shuttle is getting called without Medicine. The shuttle is getting called when people are bored.

This has been Shadowflame909 with the wasted argument since I doubt anyone's going to want to read all that. And even if ye did, it'd be to skim it for easy flaws to write counter-arguments again.

Pass. Agree to Disagree if nothing at all.

Shadowflame909 wrote:Facts

Yeah, I agree with Shadowflame909 more than "you're actually wrong"

Shadowflame909 wrote:Secondly, The implication that medical should not keep up 1:1 with antagonist potential is incorrect. See, you just wrote a sentence here and not explaining why you think that it shouldn't. But in short, the reason I think it should is simply because having Antagonists being so out of reach of the crew is how you get Antag-Like Behavior. Like Grey-tiding and Antag-Rolling, and a shitload of Escalation Abuse. The reason A game of Mafia isn't played all the time. Is because eventually, you'll get bored of not being the Killer. Here we have ways to mitigate this boredom with, I don't know maybe some "Content." If you're not keeping a department up to par with an alternative style of gameplay that isn't equal to the same amount of joy you can get from being the villain. Then you're going to get more people avoiding being anything other than the villain. The fewer people playing this game like GTA. The better. That starts with the content of Jobs. Bans are just a temporary seal.

what in the goddamn hell are you talking about

Fwoosh2.0

PKPenguin321 wrote: what in the goddamn hell are you talking about

Boredom = Grief. I was going to start a thread about this but I forgot.

Shadowflame909 wrote:
Firstly, The gear of an antagonist doesn't matter. Any murder-boner could tell you that /tg/station offers hundreds if not thousands of ways to cause mass death that security cannot stop, and that medical cannot recover from. The ones off the top of my head include The Colossus, A Tesla, Really Potent Kudzu, Xenobiology Spiders, One Mind, Revs, A Wizard who knows what they're doing, Any of the Antagonist Random Events that can only spawn after an hour, Traitorlings. The potential for Chaos is limitless, and that's why Medical crept up so hard. To mitigate some of this.

Medical is easily capable of mitigating these issues without sleepers. All of the same healing potential is there, it's not just infinity available at a single button press.

Shadowflame909 wrote: Secondly, The implication that medical should not keep up 1:1 with antagonist potential is incorrect. See, you just wrote a sentence here and not explaining why you think that it shouldn't. But in short, the reason I think it should is simply because having Antagonists being so out of reach of the crew is how you get Antag-Like Behavior. Like Grey-tiding and Antag-Rolling, and a shitload of Escalation Abuse. The reason A game of Mafia isn't played all the time. Is because eventually, you'll get bored of not being the Killer. Here we have ways to mitigate this boredom with, I don't know maybe some "Content." If you're not keeping a department up to par with an alternative style of gameplay that isn't equal to the same amount of joy you can get from being the villain. Then you're going to get more people avoiding being anything other than the villain. The fewer people playing this game like GTA. The better. That starts with the content of Jobs. Bans are just a temporary seal.

This just seems like a non-sequitur. Medbay should be able to keep up with antagonist activity when doctors are competent, not because anyone can shit out free full heals forever. By removing sleepers and making medbay less efficient, it allows good doctor players to feel accomplished by providing quick and efficient medical treatment, which is now not as easy to get.

Shadowflame909 wrote: Third. That's not medbay, that's other departments as you so say. Departmental Co-operation and all instances of it have been a joke on /tg/ and have only lead to more Escalation. It's never a fair trade because not all departments have something to gain from each other. Which leads to negotiations failing and the only way to act being aggressive. Everyone has something they want to do when they pick a Job. And they're not going to bend over to the needs of a certain department. This is excluding the fact that sometimes the person you need something from is an Antagonist and will shoot you in the face for even having a reason to go near them.

The fair trade is a small amount of credits or time to ensure medbay can provide all the crew with fast and efficient treatment. You are also thinking very narrowly about how departments could interact. A lazy chemist could ask the botanists to make healing medicine in exchange for mutagen. Cargo's job is to order supplies so they should have no reason to complain if the CMO orders more medical supplies.

Shadowflame909 wrote: On the Chemistry portion, No one wants to go home from a long day of whatever, and then get right back to work 0.5. You have to rely on one guy to have your interests in mind, and like I've said. Either they won't and you're going to have a shit time. Or you've got one of the good ones that are going to get burnt out in 3 shifts because of how tiring it is to be selfless. Then you go back to the shitty ones.

Chemistry having to slave away at healing chemicals is a strawman. There are plenty of other options for medical supplies, and plenty of spawned medical supplies such that chemistry has plenty of time to work on personal projects, before medicine comes even close to running out.

Shadowflame909 wrote: Fourth, that doesn't even apply to half of the servers now and isn't going to apply to any of them in the future. Terry is different from this standard, Sybil is different from this Standard. And Orange-Man has a plan to forcefully increase the shuttle call time to 45 minutes if they don't get their longer rounds in any other way.

The spawn supplies can easily last 45 minutes. I've seen two hour long rounds where the supply room and venting machines are still half full. If the rounds really run that wrong, the station deserves to run out of medical supplies if they can't spare a single minute to order a few more medkits.

Shadowflame909 wrote: Lastly, Your fourth and last argument contradict each other. We both know that when Engineering or Medical Degrade, it's shuttle call time. Because the game literally cannot function without a source of healing or a source of power. It should be one of our main goals to make it not Degrade. Otherwise, the round is over. Having a finite pool of medicine will only lead to Shorter Rounds and we know it. Like how we have a rule of 3s. SS13 is similar in the same way. The shuttle is getting called without power. The Shuttle is getting called without Medicine. The shuttle is getting called when people are bored.

The shuttle will be called because the power is out or people are bored far before medical supplies start to run out. Also, medical supplies are not finite. There are at least 3 ways to easily and quickly produce infinite healing supplies. IF players can't be bothered to do a single one, then running out of supplies is the consequence. I believe the players are smart enough to handle it.

I honestly think we're playing two different games now.

Cargo doesn't give a fuck about any tiny measly amount of credits. Because it does not add up to the worth of a whole crate. They'll take it from you if you're offering for free though.

Medbay is honestly not capable to deal with the work-load that is Antagonists going off the rails. I've seen it. I know what I'm talking about.

It's Shuttle Call Season and we're using off-brand flex-tape instead of fixing the pipe.

I can't believe you guys actually removed sleepers. What's next? Is cloning going the way of the dodo?

Even HRP servers use sleepers.

Shadowflame909 wrote: Medbay is honestly not capable to deal with the work-load that is Antagonists going off the rails. I've seen it. I know what I'm talking about.

They are most certainly capable of dealing with it. I've seen it. If you can't, you leave MD and CMO for people who can actually play the roles correctly, because you are bad.

Shadowflame909 wrote: Cargo doesn't give a fuck about any tiny measly amount of credits. Because it does not add up to the worth of a whole crate. They'll take it from you if you're offering for free though.

Cargo will order supplies because that's their job. I don't know what server you play on where cargo does not order supplies for crew members.

/tg/. Cargo just orders guns.

They have no reason not to do so.

And now with sleepers removed they have something else to buy, and a good reason to do so. Why do you have a problem with this?

Shadowflame909 wrote:/tg/. Cargo just orders guns.

They have no reason not to do so.

This is more due to security typically having too much other shit to deal with than to deal with rogue cargo.

Antag nerfs are going to be needed if medical continues to be nerfed. One person quickly being able to kill multiple people wont be very fun if medbay requires actual know-how to do.

Steelpoint wrote:I can't believe you guys actually removed sleepers. What's next? Is cloning going the way of the dodo?

I hope so.

Muncher21 wrote:And now with sleepers removed they have something else to buy, and a good reason to do so. Why do you have a problem with this?

They wont. they don't. Just because medbay needs medicine doesn't mean Cargo Is going to suddenly give a fuck about them. Nothing works like this. People don't work like this.

Edit: Precedent is how Botany And Chemistry are at each other's throats because saltpetre takes up lots of power but grants little potency. Also because of RnG they also need a lot of mutagen. When chemistry tells them to fuck off. Escalation ensues.

Shadowflame909 wrote:

Muncher21 wrote:And now with sleepers removed they have something else to buy, and a good reason to do so. Why do you have a problem with this?

They wont. they don't. Just because medbay needs medicine doesn't mean Cargo Is going to suddenly give a fuck about them. Nothing works like this. People don't work like this.

Edit: Precedent is how Botany And Chemistry are at each other's throats because saltpetre takes up lots of power but grants little potency. Also because of RnG they also need a lot of mutagen. When chemistry tells them to fuck off. Escalation ensues.

MDs get one of the better paydays on the station and the CMO has a budget. Go spend.

Shadowflame909 wrote:

Muncher21 wrote:And now with sleepers removed they have something else to buy, and a good reason to do so. Why do you have a problem with this?

They wont. they don't. Just because medbay needs medicine doesn't mean Cargo Is going to suddenly give a fuck about them. Nothing works like this. People don't work like this.

Edit: Precedent is how Botany And Chemistry are at each other's throats because saltpetre takes up lots of power but grants little potency. Also because of RnG they also need a lot of mutagen. When chemistry tells them to fuck off. Escalation ensues.

People who work for the same company tend to. The problem is any sense of basic RP based on that is gone. It used to be not doing your job would get you security attention and eventually if it was bad enough admin attention.

I mean you could do gimmicks but there was a baseline of "not buying guns every round" that went away at some point.

Shadowflame909 wrote:

Muncher21 wrote:And now with sleepers removed they have something else to buy, and a good reason to do so. Why do you have a problem with this?

They wont. they don't. Just because medbay needs medicine doesn't mean Cargo Is going to suddenly give a fuck about them. Nothing works like this. People don't work like this.

They will. They do. I've ordered medical supplies from cargo in multiple different rounds since sleeper removal, and never once had a problem. Do you even play the game?

Cargo doesn't even man the verification of purchase device they're so busy buying guns.

Maybe if the CMO is flashing their budget around. But if there is none, or if your just a lone MD. I find it highly unlikely on bagil or high pop Sybil.

Sounds more like something you'd have to force and be self reliant about.

Shadowflame909 wrote:I find it highly unlikely on bagil or high pop Sybil.

Well it's not. As a normal doctor, I have walked to cargo, asked them to come to the desk on the radio, then asked the tech that shows up to order medical supplies. The only unlikely part is them delivering it to medical, but it's not hard to just go get the crates yourself.

Muncher21 wrote:

Shadowflame909 wrote:I find it highly unlikely on bagil or high pop Sybil.

Well it's not. As a normal doctor, I have walked to cargo, asked them to come to the desk on the radio, then asked the tech that shows up to order medical supplies. The only unlikely part is them delivering it to medical, but it's not hard to just go get the crates yourself.

Somebody needs to start teaching the newbies about the mail system.