/tg/Station 13

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Muncher21 wrote:

Shadowflame909 wrote:I find it highly unlikely on bagil or high pop Sybil.

Well it's not. As a normal doctor, I have walked to cargo, asked them to come to the desk on the radio, then asked the tech that shows up to order medical supplies. The only unlikely part is them delivering it to medical, but it's not hard to just go get the crates yourself.

Somebody needs to start teaching the newbies about the mail system.

cedarbridge wrote:

Steelpoint wrote:I can't believe you guys actually removed sleepers. What's next? Is cloning going the way of the dodo?

I hope so.

I won't lie you guys, this is definitely me when my server has an average of 10 minutes per round

PKPenguin321 wrote:

cedarbridge wrote:

Steelpoint wrote:I can't believe you guys actually removed sleepers. What's next? Is cloning going the way of the dodo?

I hope so.

I won't lie you guys, this is definitely me when my server has an average of 10 minutes per round

I'm confused do you want rounds to be longer or shorter? Cause if you removed cloning it would be shorter since death would be more... lethal(ironically) and would make recovering from bad situations harder

PKPenguin321 wrote:

cedarbridge wrote:

Steelpoint wrote:I can't believe you guys actually removed sleepers. What's next? Is cloning going the way of the dodo?

I hope so.

I won't lie you guys, this is definitely me when my server has an average of 10 minutes per round

Which server is that? Unless something magical has changed, server round time averages are still north of 1hr.

The cargo gun thing is made worse by the QM just giving himself money from the cargo budget and then doing a private purchase of guns. Private orders don't get tagged with access restrictions like normal purchases. This would be solved by removing the cargo budget card (or giving it to the HoP). There is really no need for the QM to have it, since cargo's budget is already the default one when ordering things.

Anyway, if the CMO privately orders medical supplies on the medical budget, cargo has no reason to get in the way. In fact, they get a small handlers fee on everything ordered as a private purchase. The only real issue is if cargo is braindead or taking forever to send out the shuttle.

cedarbridge wrote:

PKPenguin321 wrote:

cedarbridge wrote:

Steelpoint wrote:I can't believe you guys actually removed sleepers. What's next? Is cloning going the way of the dodo?

I hope so.

I won't lie you guys, this is definitely me when my server has an average of 10 minutes per round

Which server is that? Unless something magical has changed, server round time averages are still north of 1hr.

you guys are dense, i'm saying that's what'll happen without cloning (or close equivalents)

This thread feels like it has since veered far of the topic of stasis beds. I'm tempted to make a new topic on the state of medical and antags and department co-dependency.

stasis beds still shit btw

Okay, see, the more I think about it, the less I hate stasis beds. I mean I never really hated them as they were, I just hated them as a replacement for sleepers, even though I could begrudgingly accept that sleepers were kind of dull from a gameplay standpoint.

I keep coming back to why the job of Doctor is so shit. I think I'm getting closer to narrowing it down. I don't think it has anything to do with antag power - I think that's a separate problem and a bit of a red herring. I used to think it was an issue with medbay having limited supplies, but honestly, it's less of an issue than I thought it'd be. I think it comes down to our entire system of medicine and player health being kind of shit.

Minor wounds are completely static and can be healed in a bunch of ways, and if they're minor enough that you can walk to medbay, they're minor enough that you can eat your own damn pills.
Death is either dealt with by throwing people in the cloner, or, if cloning has been nuked, by researching advanced surgery, healing a person up through a mix of synthflesh patches and reconstruction, getting out the defibrilators, and then saying fuck it and rebuilding cloning and throwing people in the cloner. Borging and Podding people happens more out of explicit desire than out of desperation.
Viruses, Radiation, Mutations, Overdoses: All problems that only chem has the tools to solve. It's actually kind of hilarious that the virologist doesn't actually have the resources to cure viruses, but that's a whole other story.

So what does that leave doctors with? Blood Loss, Triage, Surgery.

Blood loss tends to either be so minor people are told to walk it off, or so major that it kills people in which case it's a trip to the cloner. Very rarely, you'll actually have somebody who knows how to diagnose and treat major blood loss. I think the fact that most people don't even know how to treat blood loss is a testament to its rarity as much as anything else. But hey, it's gameplay. Ironically, the much needed body-drag nerf will probably do a fair bit to make this even rarer than it already is.

Triage is possibly the most interesting but also the most easily circumventable: A person comes in, and time is of the essence. Either they're in crit, or they're recently dead. This affords some interesting treatment options. Typically, however, the treatment order is Defib -> Cryo -> Cloning, unless a doctor is bored enough to try administering chems and making use of the stasis beds. It's kind of telling that advanced forms of treatment only happen when doctors have the luxury of boredom.

So that leaves surgery. Limb replacement and organ transplants do happen, but again, when shit hits the fan, people are just going to end up in cloning, and the number of situations in which a person is missing limbs but isn't dead enough to be thrown in the cloner are pretty infrequent. Brain surgery is pretty much the only thing that has no practical cure, owing to the simple fact that it persists through cloning (I think?).

While I think you could get a lot by giving doctors the tools to treat things that are normally in the realm of chemistry, in all honestly? I think cloning and cryo may seriously have to die. Now, they can't just get the axe; They'll need servicable replacements. But as it stands, almost the entire functionality of medbay comes out of the cloner, cryo, and the chem dispenser. Of those three machines, doctors get to use the two most boring ones.

Maybe we really do need a surgery overhaul and traumas out the ass. I don't fucking know. All I know is things are shit and they're not getting better any time soon.

Redpilled post for real

I've said this in other places, but I feel like the relationship between robotics and the borgs is what our medical system wants to be.

You know who repairs borgs when the robo isn't around? Fucking nobody. Engiborgs can keep the borg fleet free of physical damage, but when when wires are in need of a replacement, you either find a robo that's not busy dicking around in a mech, or you don't get repaired. This makes wire damage a bit of a pain in the ass for borgs, but it also makes the robo player feel more needed, and solidifies the notion that the borgs are in their care. Because if the robo doesn't look out for the borgs' well-being, nobody else will. It's actually a large part of why I love playing robo so much; the difference between a competent roboticist and a clueless one is staggering, and it feels good being a robo who knows enough to be appreciated by the silicons.

How do we translate this to medical? Good question. The most direct translation would be making burn damage not self-healable, requiring some outside tool or resource. Throw out ointment and anything that an individual can use to remove burn damage on themselves, and maybe make it a multi-step process to heal (ideally balancing with one cycle of the process healing the entire paitent's body evenly for the set amount). This would make doctors at least needed for healing burn damage (especially if it requires tools that are in somewhat short supply), and it would mean that people with lots of experience in the job would be quicker and more appreciated. Of course, there's also a bunch of thought to be put into how powerful burn attacks would be if they can't be self-treated, but still, food for thought.

Oh, and as an aside:
If we wanted to give Robo some sort of debraining item that does nothing but debrain and remove the surgery tools so that all the powergamers have to have medical do their damn augment surgery and give the doctors something to do, I'd totally be on board. Just sayian.

Shadowflame909 wrote:Don't forget when the alt tabbed medical doctor forgot that cloning is nerfed, so they think auto-processing actually goes through and auto-processes people.

Nope! It just auto-scans whoever's in the cloner! Ignoring all the data entirely!

I hope you enjoy your body turning into meat for the chef pal because the medical doctor will go back to playing Minecraft.

Uh, do you have a source on that?

Did you turn autoprocessing on after your cloner got upgraded? Because upgraded cloners with autoprocess on do, in fact, start cloning the next guy in the cloning queue (as in, the people who've been scanned and need to be cloned) almost immediately after the previous clone pops out.

After dicking around with stasis beds a bit, I'm not sure I like them for reasons entirely unrelated to sleepers.

We've positioned medical to be very reliant on chemistry to treatments, but then we added these beds that only really work in conjunction with instant-heal tools like bruise packs and onintments since apparently stasis includes freezing chemistry metabolism as well. This makes them really useless for treating anyone with advanced rad poisoning or any other toxin damage since the charcoal/pentic/antitox won't metabolize to clear out the damage. Alternatively, all of those creative, late-game, chems won't help you when the bed stops those from processing too. It's rare that I find a time that they're worth using over cryo.

ATHATH wrote:Uh, do you have a source on that?

Did you turn autoprocessing on after your cloner got upgraded? Because upgraded cloners with autoprocess on do, in fact, start cloning the next guy in the cloning queue (as in, the people who've been scanned and need to be cloned) almost immediately after the previous clone pops out.

That only works if you get autoscanned while already dead.

If you autoscan yourself while alive THEN die you're fucked since the cloner wont autoclone you and the braindead medical team wont think to manually go to your records and clone you that way.

Thanks Oranges

you're welcome

Just to be clear, in that situation manual cloning shouldn't work either.

zxaber wrote:I've said this in other places, but I feel like the relationship between robotics and the borgs is what our medical system wants to be.

You know who repairs borgs when the robo isn't around? Fucking nobody. Engiborgs can keep the borg fleet free of physical damage, but when when wires are in need of a replacement, you either find a robo that's not busy dicking around in a mech, or you don't get repaired. This makes wire damage a bit of a pain in the ass for borgs, but it also makes the robo player feel more needed, and solidifies the notion that the borgs are in their care. Because if the robo doesn't look out for the borgs' well-being, nobody else will. It's actually a large part of why I love playing robo so much; the difference between a competent roboticist and a clueless one is staggering, and it feels good being a robo who knows enough to be appreciated by the silicons.

How do we translate this to medical? Good question. The most direct translation would be making burn damage not self-healable, requiring some outside tool or resource. Throw out ointment and anything that an individual can use to remove burn damage on themselves, and maybe make it a multi-step process to heal (ideally balancing with one cycle of the process healing the entire paitent's body evenly for the set amount). This would make doctors at least needed for healing burn damage (especially if it requires tools that are in somewhat short supply), and it would mean that people with lots of experience in the job would be quicker and more appreciated. Of course, there's also a bunch of thought to be put into how powerful burn attacks would be if they can't be self-treated, but still, food for thought.

Oh, and as an aside:
If we wanted to give Robo some sort of debraining item that does nothing but debrain and remove the surgery tools so that all the powergamers have to have medical do their damn augment surgery and give the doctors something to do, I'd totally be on board. Just sayian.

The issue is that borgs aren't really the same as humans - damage doesn't slow them down, at worst it disables module slots. They need robotics to continue existing because the largest number (and most likely to be upgraded) rechargers - not to mention that roboticists also give them upgrades (you can draw some parallel I guess to surgery for enhancements here, but surgical enhancements aren't really treated as quintessential upgrades by most players). Trying to translate it 1:1 just ends up with baymed light where you're crawling at a tile per hour because of your burns while the robot with burn damage zips on by.

Don't like stasis beds too. Not because they are shit (they sound like they is not), but because sleepers are needful - well, in rounds where I played, tbh.
If you don’t have any doctor around, the only thing you can do is puts the man in the machine and press some buttons. If I don't know the recipes and operation steps to act around that they can die - whelp, bad for me, bad for them.
When it's not part of my job/role, I can push some sleeper's buttons and turn some lines green — how really comprehensive is the random NT staff? How clever and dumb user-friendly most be this fancy spacestation meditech, btw? Should I really know first aid for everything ever if I am just junky helpless greytid/bartender/mime/chaplain/whatsever? Do I even have use an analyzer, if I one of that guys?
(Not like I never sneaky break into church and virology, to make some Strange and restore crewmates not like creepy and soulless clones... It's really haven't IC sense for many roles, I think.)

Maybe doctors are too dependent from good old sleepers and don't do their doctor's things. This is bad thing, okay.
Is it possible to fix this by little nerf? Without removing sleepers to everyone?
Make sleepers useful, but not an all-cure-panacea. The poster earlier suggested an idea - the sleeper that works only for the one inside. This is enough for accidental injuries and less competent help, and not enough for a large-scale event with a triage of patient stack.
Could the injection rate made is equal to the metabolic rate? Make like the sleeper puts only minimum amount of drug from some buffer in the body, which will full processed for tick. No overdosing, no overflow with quick patient change. Only one patient lies under an automatic SLOW IV-drug device with simple diagnostic screen, and doctors have to wait bunch of time until they was cured and do their thing around for another patients in another ways.
I think this can partially compensate for the sleeper's infinity stocks and handling simplicity - that saves the device for not-really-doctors, but not making it the best medical tool ever.

if you have no engineers the station runs out of power and dies 20 mins in, what's wrong with issues healing people (despite there still being lots of meds lying around in the bay without sleepers and usually an accessible vendor) if there are no doctors?

He doesn't like having to think

Actually, hell, there's negative issue here. maybe stop getting into fights, believe it or not injuries are supposed to be a punishment you want to avoid in most video games.

Stasis beds are actually super useful for stabilizing patients who have been severely poisoned. You put them on the bed while you yank em full of calomel and anti toxin.

just make sure to take them off afterwards so calo/at metabs...

I really wish stasis beds could be linked to operating computers and didnt have a penalty to surgery use on them. It would be really useful to be able to use the new healing surgeries without having the patient die from being in crit.

Techweb stasis roller bed/surgery bed would be super fucking cool!

Also stasis beds are still good and make medbay a bit more fun to play.

Dr_bee wrote:I really wish stasis beds could be linked to operating computers and didnt have a penalty to surgery use on them. It would be really useful to be able to use the new healing surgeries without having the patient die from being in crit.

I'd be for this.

Dr_bee wrote:I really wish stasis beds could be linked to operating computers and didnt have a penalty to surgery use on them. It would be really useful to be able to use the new healing surgeries without having the patient die from being in crit.

Would synergize great with the tend wounds surgery.

tbh I'd prefer if the stasis wasn't "stop all chemicals completely" and simply altered how fast life ticks happen in addition to giving the beds a variable setting, so that you can apply and make use of chems to someone in stasis and can't ignore them forever on the bed, even on the max setting.

CDranzer wrote:
So that leaves surgery. Limb replacement and organ transplants do happen, but again, when shit hits the fan, people are just going to end up in cloning, and the number of situations in which a person is missing limbs but isn't dead enough to be thrown in the cloner are pretty infrequent. Brain surgery is pretty much the only thing that has no practical cure, owing to the simple fact that it persists through cloning (I think?).

Cloning does heal brain damage by the way. Which makes surgery even less useful. I had someone with a deep rooted trauma come to medbay. I successfully performed the lobotomy surgery to get rid of it, he gets a trauma that's even worse. The solution was to just kill him and throw him in the cloner, 1 minute later and he comes out perfectly healthy. So a surgery that requires advanced surgery technology and is only used for this specific instance leaves someone crippled, while throwing someone in an (upgraded for convenience) cloner gets someone 100% healthy without any drawback whatsoever. Why even bother performing surgery.

Anyway why did stasis beds replace cloners instead of cryo tubes? The cryo was always the place you put critically injured patients.

I think a system with a sleeper in which you can load beakers with healing chemicals that get multiplied and a cryo that stabilizes and slowly heals which doesn't require input resources is the best combination for medbay.

Having a sleeper which multiplies resources makes it actually more efficient to heal in the medbay without having infinite healing chemicals there.

zxaber wrote:I've said this in other places, but I feel like the relationship between robotics and the borgs is what our medical system wants to be.

You know who repairs borgs when the robo isn't around? Fucking nobody. Engiborgs can keep the borg fleet free of physical damage, but when when wires are in need of a replacement, you either find a robo that's not busy dicking around in a mech, or you don't get repaired. This makes wire damage a bit of a pain in the ass for borgs, but it also makes the robo player feel more needed, and solidifies the notion that the borgs are in their care. Because if the robo doesn't look out for the borgs' well-being, nobody else will. It's actually a large part of why I love playing robo so much; the difference between a competent roboticist and a clueless one is staggering, and it feels good being a robo who knows enough to be appreciated by the silicons.

How do we translate this to medical? Good question. The most direct translation would be making burn damage not self-healable, requiring some outside tool or resource. Throw out ointment and anything that an individual can use to remove burn damage on themselves, and maybe make it a multi-step process to heal (ideally balancing with one cycle of the process healing the entire paitent's body evenly for the set amount). This would make doctors at least needed for healing burn damage (especially if it requires tools that are in somewhat short supply), and it would mean that people with lots of experience in the job would be quicker and more appreciated. Of course, there's also a bunch of thought to be put into how powerful burn attacks would be if they can't be self-treated, but still, food for thought.

Oh, and as an aside:
If we wanted to give Robo some sort of debraining item that does nothing but debrain and remove the surgery tools so that all the powergamers have to have medical do their damn augment surgery and give the doctors something to do, I'd totally be on board. Just sayian.

To be fair, as a shaft miner doctor, I'll heal anyone who comes to medical, cyborgs included.

And while you're right about how increasing the bond between medical and being healed closed knit sounds desirable, to do so in a similar way to the Cyborgs sounds good, but it's terrible.
1. Massive indirect buff to flame throwers, plasma fires(this is especially bad, plasma fires tend to ruin stations, this would just massively increase their kill count), and even welders.
2. Significant indirect nerf to shaft miners, but especially to new shaft miners. Got shot by a watcher 2/3 times because you're not used to fighting them or just bumped into one? Too bad, you have to either haul your ass the entire way back to the station and into medical and wait for someone to heal you(probably at a gimp because you can't heal it), or continue trying to mine, while walking at a slower speed leaving you especially vulnerable to anything wanting to kill(god forbid you stumble upon a megafauna or the firedrake, if the fire drake ever sets you on fire it's over).
3. Indirect buff to lavaland artifacts, the rod of aclesius already makes 3/4 of medical redundant, but would become the only easy way of healing burn damage, especially on a wide scale. If a shaft miner wants to be an asshole or milk the station for what it's worth (like using Gar Yok to keep ahold of the staff), the entire station has to suck their dick so everyone doesn't have to suffer from the inhumanity that will become burn damage.

Also if people want to I think they can move Sleepers that can be found from lavaland and space ruins back to the station, so it's not like you can't have a sleeper.

Though I think stasis beds are good as an addition, but not necessarily a replacement to sleepers.