/tg/Station 13

Posted: **Mon May 13, 2019 2:12 pm**

Bottom post of the previous page:

teepeepee wrote:
Git Dat Disc wrote:things
You pointed out the intended way, relying on medical, I pointed out the alternatives, which there are many, just like with most other systems in the game
e.g.: sec weapons vs makeshift weapons, medbay vs holodeck medbay/PANDEMIC, science vs golem ship/derelict
again, tell me why relying on medical should be a bad thing, it's what they're there for
you say finding a workaround of that is hard, perhaps it should be
you say rads are bothersome, I say they're a tradeoff for the stuff you get from fusion

How nice of you to legitimately quote me by completely dismissing my response by condensing it down to simply "things". The only alternative you suggested was what I already do most of the time as an atmos tech, which is to make my own Medbay in Engineering because I can't trust Medbay to do its job. And when I do get a borg to help me, they drag me down to Medbay because that is the de facto healing area and do it of force of habit and then cryo me as I have complained about before. I also corrected you on being factually incorrect about Penetic Acid production. And finally, no where did I say radiation is bothersome, it is deadly if you get hit by a stray fusion particle and it can spread to other people on the station because of how high the levels of radiation is.

Posted: **Mon May 13, 2019 2:23 pm**

I like how everyone's argument is just BUILD YOUR OWN CHEM DISPENSER or STEAL FLOWERS AND SPEND 15 MINUTES GRINDING PLANTS

Or JUST HAVE COMPETENT PLAYERS

You can't balance your meta around everyone being 100% competent with a great deal of game knowledge. That's completely fucking unrealistic. Stop telling people to git gud when we can't get good because you keep inviting Ssethtards to medical and have them fuck everything up. I'm sick of having to be an assistant and explain to people how to do blood transfusions and that someone who is suffocating doesn't need to be in cryo and how to do basic surgery.

You cunts deride medical doctors as "button pushers" when this entire game consists of pushing a button. What's the difference between clicking your mouse on "bicaridine" until someone stands up compared to clicking the mouse on John Greytide until he goes horizontal? Stop singling out my favorite department for your horseshit changes, you beef curtains.

Posted: **Mon May 13, 2019 3:27 pm**

Medbay is also my favorite department crag stop singling it out with your lazy stupid-ass who thinks its ridiculous to ask players to try to do the job they pick
I still never fucking need chemistrys help but theyre usually there and there are options if you’re this fucking dumb then play medborg for a walking sleeper or just stop playing

Posted: **Mon May 13, 2019 3:41 pm**

I'm not lazy you fart-huffing bulldyke, i just like being able to do my job without having to wrangle a bunch of mongoloids out of chemistry and do their job for them because as i keep saying ALL THE MEDICAL SLOTS ARE BEING FILLED WITH RETARDS BECAUSE YOU MADE MEDICAL EVEN LESS REWARDING AND ENGAGING FOR LONG TIME PLAYERS

Posted: **Mon May 13, 2019 4:20 pm**

you must acquire more proficiency at hitting the correct buttons in the game

Posted: **Mon May 13, 2019 5:55 pm**

can we put stasis beds in research next so that job is less button pushing
what about genetics?

Posted: **Mon May 13, 2019 6:12 pm**

Kryson wrote:It only takes like 15min for a competent chemist to make decent amount styptic, sulfa, synthflesh, atropine, calomel and perfluoro.

Chemists, being well known for their high levels of competence and strong desires to develop a broad range of helpful medicines for the crew.

Posted: **Mon May 13, 2019 9:00 pm**

it's not even competence, it's a bare minimum of brain matter.

Posted: **Mon May 13, 2019 9:00 pm**

terranaut wrote:can we put stasis beds in research next so that job is less button pushing
what about genetics?

techwebs isn't a job

Posted: **Mon May 13, 2019 10:27 pm**

Okay, Oranges, I have a question, since I've seen you defending this PR more than anybody else and you seem to have an interest in medical being improved.

What, in your eyes, does a good Doctor role look like? And when I say Doctor, I mean Doctor. Not Chemist, not Geneticist, not Virology, not Medbay As A Whole, I mean the actual specific role of Medical Doctor. How should their time be split up? What should they be doing? How much downtime should they have? What are the challenges they should face?

Posted: **Mon May 13, 2019 10:57 pm**

triage, surgery and diagnostics

Posted: **Mon May 13, 2019 11:06 pm**

oranges wrote:triage

Chuck dying person on stasis bed. Leave them there for hours while you fuck around because they're literally incapable of dying now.

oranges wrote:surgery

Someone's missing limbs. Go to check the surgical ward and find your tools have been stolen. Tell them to bash their own head in with a fire extinguisher and clone them.

oranges wrote:diagnostics

Click on someone with a medical scanner.

IM SO FUCKING ENGAGED HOLY SHIIIIIIT.

Posted: **Mon May 13, 2019 11:33 pm**

oranges wrote:triage, surgery and diagnostics

Fuck, this got me thinking. Because okay, how does the removal of sleepers help this? Like, if I'm being generous and pretending I agree with the PR, how does it help move us towards these goals? More specifically, how do sleepers impede these goals? Well, "Triage" is kind of pointless when you dump somebody in a sleeper and kick them the fuck out. They get treated in an instant, so there's no real management of time and resources. That, I'm happy to concede. Diagnostics is kind of a non-issue anyway, because you can just pump people full of one of every kind of chemical and you've probably just healed them. But those two things got me thinking.

Consider this basic concept: A sleeper that basically constantly feeds somebody a single chemical as long as they're inside it. But it only feeds them the chemical while they're inside it (Like it always makes sure you have slightly more than none but no more), and it can only feed the patient one chemical at a time. This would solve the two biggest problems of sleepers (fast and brainless) without shitting on their main benefit (an unlimited supply of rudimentary chemicals) and without making regular medicine redundant (eat a pill and walk it off). You could even give the sleepers a stasis function. Hell, have that be the default mode.

I will accept "WYCI" as an endorsement of approval.

Posted: **Mon May 13, 2019 11:56 pm**

Sleepers exist because murderboners exist

Murderboners exist because the way of /tg/ is the way of making all antagonists capable of killing 1/3rd of the server with ease.

When do we start neutering antagonists so slowing down medbay actually makes sense?

Posted: **Mon May 13, 2019 11:57 pm**

How should their time be split up? What should they be doing?

Helping Patients, Providing upgrades (organs/implants), checking inventory, pursuing upgrades and/or new machines to alleviate their demand (per need), ensuring chemistry is making a variety of dosages and medicinal combinations. Their time allocated to each depends on the amount of staff in medical as well as their demand. They have to be pretty adaptable if they want to keep people alive.

How much downtime should they have? What are the challenges they should face?

Downtime should be based on MDs and their demand. You should be pretty busy if there's a ravenous killer on the loose. Again, they need to be adaptable if they care to keep people alive.

Challenges include not having enough medicines and/or losing patients to poor resource management. Poor resource management being using a poor method of healing (IE using an entire set of bruisepacks because a guy has 5u damage on each body part) or ODing (not necessarily to the point where the reagent ODs, but ODing in the sense that you're giving them more than they need to fully heal from their wound).

Posted: **Tue May 14, 2019 12:30 am**

oranges wrote:triage, surgery and diagnostics

Problem with surgery is the maps dont support the increased need for it at the moment, and the basic healing surgery requires serious fucking research.

Second problem is that chemistry increased in importance several fold but the players who play it still only make meth and fuck off. Either people are going to need to start being held accountable for doing their job in medical or chem access needs to be spread around.

Posted: **Tue May 14, 2019 12:49 am**

Dr_bee wrote:
oranges wrote:triage, surgery and diagnostics
Problem with surgery is the maps dont support the increased need for it at the moment, and the basic healing surgery requires serious fucking research.

This part bothers me. Why is reconstruction locked behind techwebs and why can I only repair brain damage and traumas but I have to hotswap every other organ without means to repair?

Posted: **Tue May 14, 2019 1:11 am**

There's no point to relying on Chemisty because most casual chemists only play the role for their enjoyment and not to contribute to the rest of the department, ala Genetics. Departmental cooperation is a crock and so is inter-departmental in this case.

Posted: **Tue May 14, 2019 1:17 am**

*floods medbay with medibots*

resource management lol

Posted: **Tue May 14, 2019 1:21 am**

*go into crit because of an e-sword e-bow bullshit*

*medibot sees me and just ree's "LIVE DAMMIT LIVE"*

*die brutally because medibots are fucking useless when your suffering from a serious injury*

Posted: **Tue May 14, 2019 1:39 am**

Super Aggro Crag wrote:
oranges wrote:triage
Chuck dying person on stasis bed. Leave them there for hours while you fuck around because they're literally incapable of dying now.
oranges wrote:surgery
Someone's missing limbs. Go to check the surgical ward and find your tools have been stolen. Tell them to bash their own head in with a fire extinguisher and clone them.
oranges wrote:diagnostics
Click on someone with a medical scanner.

IM SO FUCKING ENGAGED HOLY SHIIIIIIT.

I see you also have adequately diagnosed the issues with our medical system

Posted: **Tue May 14, 2019 1:40 am**

cedarbridge wrote:
Dr_bee wrote:
oranges wrote:triage, surgery and diagnostics
Problem with surgery is the maps dont support the increased need for it at the moment, and the basic healing surgery requires serious fucking research.
This part bothers me. Why is reconstruction locked behind techwebs and why can I only repair brain damage and traumas but I have to hotswap every other organ without means to repair?

probably because it became an issue only after sleepers were booted

Posted: **Tue May 14, 2019 1:41 am**

CDranzer wrote:
oranges wrote:triage, surgery and diagnostics
Well, "Triage" is kind of pointless when you dump somebody in a sleeper and kick them the fuck out. They get treated in an instant, so there's no real management of time and resources. That, I'm happy to concede. Diagnostics is kind of a non-issue anyway, because you can just pump people full of one of every kind of chemical and you've probably just healed them. But those two things got me thinking.

Im glad you see the issues with sleepers, thanks for coming

Posted: **Tue May 14, 2019 1:46 am**

oranges wrote:
cedarbridge wrote:
Dr_bee wrote:
oranges wrote:triage, surgery and diagnostics
Problem with surgery is the maps dont support the increased need for it at the moment, and the basic healing surgery requires serious fucking research.
This part bothers me. Why is reconstruction locked behind techwebs and why can I only repair brain damage and traumas but I have to hotswap every other organ without means to repair?
probably because it became an issue only after sleepers were booted

I'm taking that to mean I'm in the minority who actually used reconstruction and revival operations on live.

Posted: **Tue May 14, 2019 1:51 am**

that's almost certainly true, they definitely should be brought forward.

Surgeries should be the default, and things in the techwebs should automate/speed up those processes.

Posted: **Tue May 14, 2019 1:54 am**

oranges wrote:
Super Aggro Crag wrote:
oranges wrote:triage
Chuck dying person on stasis bed. Leave them there for hours while you fuck around because they're literally incapable of dying now.
oranges wrote:surgery
Someone's missing limbs. Go to check the surgical ward and find your tools have been stolen. Tell them to bash their own head in with a fire extinguisher and clone them.
oranges wrote:diagnostics
Click on someone with a medical scanner.

IM SO FUCKING ENGAGED HOLY SHIIIIIIT.
I see you also have adequately diagnosed the issues with our medical system

why the fuck did you triple post you stupid flightless bird

further you didn't address any of my rebuttals so suck shit

Posted: **Tue May 14, 2019 1:57 am**

oranges wrote:that's almost certainly true, they definitely should be brought forward.

Surgeries should be the default, and things in the techwebs should automate/speed up those processes.

Then move reconstruction and revival to default, make the clone room a secondary surgical suite or something, and make cloning require techwebs.

Antags will need to be nerfed HARD if that happens however, as 8 antags killing people in the typical round will quickly overwhelm even a fully staffed medbay without cloning and sleepers, unless chemistry is actually willing to make meds, which they almost never are.

Posted: **Tue May 14, 2019 1:58 am**

Traitor bros higher in the rotation

Traitor Lings non-existant for being so terrible.

Posted: **Tue May 14, 2019 2:33 am**

Shadowflame909 wrote:*die brutally because medibots are fucking useless when your suffering from a serious injury*

wow just like sleepers

Posted: **Tue May 14, 2019 2:43 am**

Dr_bee wrote:
oranges wrote:that's almost certainly true, they definitely should be brought forward.

Surgeries should be the default, and things in the techwebs should automate/speed up those processes.
Then move reconstruction and revival to default, make the clone room a secondary surgical suite or something, and make cloning require techwebs.

Antags will need to be nerfed HARD if that happens however, as 8 antags killing people in the typical round will quickly overwhelm even a fully staffed medbay without cloning and sleepers, unless chemistry is actually willing to make meds, which they almost never are.

Swap the stasis beds for operation suites (tool storage, upgradable parts) and have upgrades grant QoL effects like the corizone the abductor table auto-injects so that things like heart operations are a bit easier than on an un-upgraded machine. Tool storage frees up space normally taken up by sticking all of the tools onto tables and shit as we do now while making it possible to sneak off with one of them to use as a weapon.

This opens up room for making triage kits a thing. Either in pill/patch form that chemistry can make and hand out (or stock the fridge for docs to sock themselves) or in the form of suture kits for on-site minor operations before roller-bedding the wounded to medbay for full and proper treatment.

I could see just trading cloning for something like a coroner's office with investigative tools for acertaining cause of death beyond just "burn damage too high"

Posted: **Tue May 14, 2019 3:06 am**

because they're not rebuttals, they're just more evidence of how badly broken the medical system is, which is why we're changing htem

Posted: **Tue May 14, 2019 3:43 am**

oranges wrote:
CDranzer wrote:
oranges wrote:triage, surgery and diagnostics
Well, "Triage" is kind of pointless when you dump somebody in a sleeper and kick them the fuck out. They get treated in an instant, so there's no real management of time and resources. That, I'm happy to concede. Diagnostics is kind of a non-issue anyway, because you can just pump people full of one of every kind of chemical and you've probably just healed them. But those two things got me thinking.
Im glad you see the issues with sleepers, thanks for coming

Thanks for reading and responding to the entirety of my post, it will definitely encourage myself and others to concede ground to you in future discussions

Posted: **Tue May 14, 2019 4:12 am**

no problem, im glad we were able to find common ground

Posted: **Tue May 14, 2019 9:14 am**

oranges wrote:because they're not rebuttals, they're just more evidence of how badly broken the medical system is, which is why we're changing htem

They are rebuttals, i pointed out how stasis beds do nothing to resolve the issues. At least with sleepers I could triage and get people stabilized and give them a drug and then move on to other injured people.

Posted: **Tue May 14, 2019 11:27 am**

surgery shit never gets researched because medical can do better with just chems and upgraded cloner, i would say it also costs 5000 for no reason and the techweb branch could be changed to reflecy new needs (currently bio1->bio2->adv surgery (unlocks reconstruction which is the same of slapping synthflesh)-> experimental surgery(unlocks revival which defibs corpses which have decayed)

also docs can print off new chem boards with bio1 (its available roundstart) and can ask or scavenge for machine parts if: after finding the chemists incompetent, cmo incompetent and beating their ass may cause an infraction of the admin version of escalation policy you can be as efficient as you can be with a toolbox

if you think doc job is to stay in medical all the time you have to drop the view of doc as button presser, good docs go around on station with handheld cmc and find people dying/ being killed

if boner mc bone is on his way to the moab and medical is filled with corpses its up to you to choose win which priority clone ppl while being on the lookout for the boner and looters and either try to do revival surgery on 10 people at the same tome or save a bunch of trusty assistants and get the boner with guns you found on dead ppl

if you are mad about newfags then i ll tell u that newfags are in all job roles and have been always been here
ppl didnt play doc cause literally everyone dragging a corpse/crit dude would shove u and defib / sleeper and his job would end into dragging the left over bodies to cloning / defib sleeper
which dont need more than a greytider to do it

Posted: **Tue May 14, 2019 1:41 pm**

Stasis beds literally stabilize people, crag?

Posted: **Tue May 14, 2019 3:10 pm**

No, they just prevent them from dying. By stabilize i mean "not in critical." Holding someone in critical isnt stabilizing them. With sleepers, I could stabilize someone with application of medication or patches and then give them a sleeper so they continue healing without my supervision and move on to the next critical person, having saved medication by not using it all on the first guy.

Posted: **Tue May 14, 2019 7:48 pm**

If you have several critical patients just atropine them. A few units will heal them for a good amount while you decide how to use your patches.

Posted: **Tue May 14, 2019 10:57 pm**

surgeries should be moved to be roundstart and improvements to them etc should be the researchable stuff.

maps will need more surgery theaters too

Posted: **Tue May 14, 2019 11:06 pm**

oranges wrote:maps will need more surgery theaters too

or just smaller ones

Posted: **Wed May 15, 2019 1:58 am**

no one uses the examination rooms make them into SURGICAL HORROR HOUSE S

Posted: **Wed May 15, 2019 2:00 am**

but dont connect them together I still want to be able to brainwash surgery folks without getting exposed

Edit: When do we make that anasthetic tank useful for surgery. Gamers I want my patient to feel paranoia. What if im an evil doctor who tosses them out of an airlock while they're unconscious.

We gotta make that tank more useful. Pump up the paranoia factor!

Posted: **Wed May 15, 2019 2:01 am**

then people will just not submit to surgery

Posted: **Wed May 15, 2019 2:07 am**

Well, when humans are faced with intense pain. They tend to freak out.

Realism for spooky ss13 stuff. When your patient is awake, the surgery has a baseline 20% chance to error. You either go unconscious or you get the botanist to make some cannabis.

Making it a 5% chance with cannabis.

Trust your doctors gamer. They took the hippocratic oath!

Posted: **Wed May 15, 2019 6:20 am**

Super Aggro Crag wrote:then people will just not submit to surgery

Posted: **Wed May 15, 2019 3:54 pm**

Their loss nerd if someone’s in such dire need of surgery then they can’t consent anyways what happened to paranoia crag what happened to having actual challenge in this game maybe people would act like retards less if they couldn’t act like retards and live

Posted: **Wed May 15, 2019 6:14 pm**

That is paranoia duder, they dont want to go aslep

Thats also why coders removed sleepers cuz I morphined plz nerf

Posted: **Wed May 15, 2019 7:22 pm**

Honestly I'd love to code surgery to be less shit but I have no idea how I could make it fun or interesting in the first place. Though I do think late game surgery should probably almost be automated and much faster than it is currently, as well as having unique improvements to the body.

We already have genetics for hulk and you can practically spam that onto people so why would you even get the nerve grounding type shit. The revival surgery is basically on par with a max upgraded cloner and you have to spend like tons of points to get it. The reason it's on par, or even argueably worse is that the patient takes 50-190 brain damage when you finish. Causing mostly severe brain damage that can only be cured by yet another surgery, brain surgery, which takes a long time and also there's no way to give it an 100% success rate.

Surgery is just uninteresting and the best parts of it are argueably worse than things other jobs can achieve at roundstart. Don't ask me how to make it interesting though, and I obviously don't think it should recieve buffs as is since it's pretty much just read off the monitor steps simulator 2019.

But yeah I'm not sure where to add depth so it's just kind of sitting there in the corner of medical being the most boring job.

Posted: **Wed May 15, 2019 7:32 pm**

Super Aggro Crag wrote:That is paranoia duder, they dont want to go aslep

Thats also why coders removed sleepers cuz I morphined plz nerf

A default "step fails" chance is so good, because then you have to sit there wondering is the doctor incompetent/evil, or just unlucky. Even if it was just 2%.

Posted: **Wed May 15, 2019 8:07 pm**

Whoneedspacee wrote:Honestly I'd love to code surgery to be less shit but I have no idea how I could make it fun or interesting in the first place. Though I do think late game surgery should probably almost be automated and much faster than it is currently, as well as having unique improvements to the body.

We already have genetics for hulk and you can practically spam that onto people so why would you even get the nerve grounding type shit. The revival surgery is basically on par with a max upgraded cloner and you have to spend like tons of points to get it. The reason it's on par, or even argueably worse is that the patient takes 50-190 brain damage when you finish. Causing mostly severe brain damage that can only be cured by yet another surgery, brain surgery, which takes a long time and also there's no way to give it an 100% success rate.

Surgery is just uninteresting and the best parts of it are argueably worse than things other jobs can achieve at roundstart. Don't ask me how to make it interesting though, and I obviously don't think it should recieve buffs as is since it's pretty much just read off the monitor steps simulator 2019.

But yeah I'm not sure where to add depth so it's just kind of sitting there in the corner of medical being the most boring job.

Auto-docs with programmable surgeries would be a good thing to add for techwebs, have it still require someone else run it, but have it do the steps automatically on a timer once started.

Also have the auto-doc lock while in use.

Better hope they didnt pick the de-braining surgery option.

Posted: **Wed May 15, 2019 9:49 pm**

Just FYI I did not merge sleepers because I got morphined lol...

/tg/Station 13

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