Doctor is a shit job

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CDranzer
 
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Doctor is a shit job

Postby CDranzer » Sat Jun 01, 2019 12:33 am #496323

Medical Doctor is currently one of the least interesting and least useful jobs on the station. Your department is so public that seeing somebody in a restricted area is barely acknowledged, let alone perceived as suspicious. The bread and butter of your job consists of using medicine you didn't make on people who can administer it themselves. Alternatively, you throw people into cryo or cloning.

There is an enormous dependence on Chemistry to do your job. There are some people who would say that "Working with Chemistry" is a part of your job. This is a fallacy. Doctors don't work with chemists, they are dependent upon chemists. Whenever advanced problems start happening, it falls to Chemistry to produce a solution. Doctors offer nothing to chemists. The relationship is entirely one-sided.

For most forms of conventional damage, cryo will fix it. Where cryo is insufficient, cloning is the most practical solution. Neither of these machines require any kind of knowledge to operate, nor do they pose any risk of misuse beyond explicit sabotage. Even sleepers could accidentally OD somebody.

The only unique jobs that doctors perform are surgery-based. This involves replacing limbs in the rare cases where a person is dismembered but not killed and robotics doesn't want to augment them, and the very occasional organ/brain surgery that isn't solved by either chemistry or cloning.

For 99% of medical situations, you could bolt open three doors and let medbay become self-serve. A bored lingering assistant may be required to operate the cloners from time to time.

I'm not sure how the hell this is even fixable. Stripping chem of their monopoly on medicine might help. Removing cryo would just push more people to cloning. Even if you could get enough support for removing cloning, it wouldn't do anything to make the job more interesting and would probably just cripple medbay in the process. Maybe we need more traumas. Maybe the entire health system needs an overhaul. I don't know.

All I know for sure is things are shit and they aren't getting any better.



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Re: Doctor is a shit job

Postby Dr_bee » Sat Jun 01, 2019 12:39 am #496324

Cap damage that can be healed by basic chemicals, remove cloning, make the resurrection surgery standard. Boom, relevant medical.

That or add trauma based damage, that require being fixed by surgery. Have Rezadone be able to heal physical traumas as it is capped behind botany or emags.

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Re: Doctor is a shit job

Postby NoxVS » Sat Jun 01, 2019 1:08 am #496337

Dr_bee wrote:Cap damage that can be healed by basic chemicals, remove cloning, make the resurrection surgery standard. Boom, relevant medical.

That or add trauma based damage, that require being fixed by surgery. Have Rezadone be able to heal physical traumas as it is capped behind botany or emags.

Pretty much everything you just listed just makes medical even more dependent on others
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Re: Doctor is a shit job

Postby Yakumo_Chen » Sat Jun 01, 2019 5:50 am #496360

BAY MED
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Re: Doctor is a shit job

Postby Shadowflame909 » Sat Jun 01, 2019 6:12 am #496366

Sucks

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Re: Doctor is a shit job

Postby Whoneedspacee » Sat Jun 01, 2019 6:45 am #496367

I did have an idea for a surgery rework to make it a bit more skill based and fun, got inspired by this type of stuff https://youtu.be/59-5yN6RJAQ?t=167 (obviously less detailed / graphic if implemented) think it could have a neat dichotomy of faster but less effective surgeries and more well done surgeries that have a better outcome.

Of course I'm already working on a bunch of other stuff and this is a pretty unique thing but I think it's possible to do with current hud stuff and could be neat. Was also going to package it with some medical techwebs changes and the ability to perform most surgeries off the bat (but much more difficult without proper equipment) since I think most jobs have this ability to have a decision between preperation and skill. Miners can do this by speedrunning megafauna, toxins can all suicide for faster bombs, etc. Might add a bit more depth to the decision making in the job anyways.

Of course this wouldn't make medical doctor not a shit job but might be a good step since right now surgery is action timer simulator. I also might add self-surgery back, restricted under similar things like advanced surgery (surgical bed, surgical computer, etc). To make medical doctor a better job it really needs to be rewarded for helping people, right now the only reward is being the target of antagonists.

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Re: Doctor is a shit job

Postby Tlaltecuhtli » Sat Jun 01, 2019 7:54 am #496368

do you want medical more surgery central?

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Re: Doctor is a shit job

Postby CPTANT » Sat Jun 01, 2019 9:20 am #496371

100% the reason why doctors should be merged with chemists.

Doctors simply have nothing to do. There is nothing they can produce or improve. Combining them with chemists means they can work on medication while everything is quiet and then help people in times of crisis. Doctors are also piss poor traitors jobs compared to the power other non-service jobs like scientists and engineers have.

It is a very inconsistent situation that science is completely merged down to one job while medbay remains completely segregated into tiny niche jobs.
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Re: Doctor is a shit job

Postby skoglol » Sat Jun 01, 2019 1:41 pm #496391

When we remove roundstart cloning and replace it with other means of bringing people back like early revival surgery, doctor gets more work. So long as cloning is a thing, any difficult fix job is going to be thrown in a clone bay as it is the easiest way to do it. Dead and missing all your limbs and blood? Eh, just clone him. Someone disembowel him? Eh lets not find new organs, just clone him.

For as long as a doctors job is only doing the easy stuff that everyone has the time for, doctor is going to feel bad. Making revival a more tedious process is part of fixing that.

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Re: Doctor is a shit job

Postby cedarbridge » Sun Jun 02, 2019 7:08 pm #496460

CPTANT wrote:100% the reason why doctors should be merged with chemists.

No matter how many times this gets repeated its never going to be true.

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Re: Doctor is a shit job

Postby CPTANT » Sun Jun 02, 2019 7:37 pm #496462

cedarbridge wrote:
CPTANT wrote:100% the reason why doctors should be merged with chemists.

No matter how many times this gets repeated its never going to be true.


Yes because years later doctors are totally still not a shit job :roll:

There is no good reason why the inconsistency between science and medbay regarding job merging should continue to exist. The removal of job segregation did wonders for science and the same segregation is still making medbay jobs very unrewarding to play.
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Re: Doctor is a shit job

Postby Super Aggro Crag » Sun Jun 02, 2019 9:42 pm #496481

its not removal of job segregation if you just bloat a department with 30 different systems, diplard
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Re: Doctor is a shit job

Postby CDranzer » Sun Jun 02, 2019 10:27 pm #496488

I don't agree with merging doctor and chemist because I don't agree that chemist is primarily a medical job - I think chemistry is a science job that doctors have a crippling dependence on. It's similar, but it's not quite the same thing. I'd rather see chem split into Science:Chemist and Medical:Pharmacist, which I know some other servers do, although I'm not sure what a pharmacist would even look like in our current medical system. I feel like you'd need an entire chem rewrite for it to be practical - like you'd have to have tier 1 components that chem has access to and then tier 2 components that chem can mix from tier 1 components but pharma has direct access to, and then medicines that are mixed out of tier 2 components, so even though chem can make medicine, pharma is far better suited to it. But, again, that would require almost a complete chem rewrite, and I don't think anybody wants to do that. Also, even if you did do that, it might make doctor a bit better off in terms of access to supplies, but it wouldn't do much for the job itself, unless you only let chem fridges be accessed by doctors, but that seems like a bit of a bludgeon.

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Re: Doctor is a shit job

Postby cedarbridge » Mon Jun 03, 2019 3:12 am #496509

CPTANT wrote:
cedarbridge wrote:
CPTANT wrote:100% the reason why doctors should be merged with chemists.

No matter how many times this gets repeated its never going to be true.


Yes because years later doctors are totally still not a shit job :roll:

There is no good reason why the inconsistency between science and medbay regarding job merging should continue to exist. The removal of job segregation did wonders for science and the same segregation is still making medbay jobs very unrewarding to play.

Which is why a toxins scientist has access to robotics and the roboticist has access to xenobio and toxins. Wowie that argument worked out.

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Re: Doctor is a shit job

Postby Shadowflame909 » Mon Jun 03, 2019 3:15 am #496512

They do on Lowpop.

Honk Honk

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ThanatosRa wrote:My biggest problem is that I can't fix any of this.


Boris wrote:shadowflame either has a brain the size of a pea or one the size of the moon and he's playing 58D chess.


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Re: Doctor is a shit job

Postby cedarbridge » Mon Jun 03, 2019 5:02 am #496523

Shadowflame909 wrote:They do on Lowpop.

Honk Honk

And MDs have access to chem on lowpop.

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Re: Doctor is a shit job

Postby SaveVatznick » Mon Jun 03, 2019 6:44 am #496534

I don't think it needs mentioning that splitting chemist into Science Chemist and Medical Pharmacist would result in a huge split between roles and the Pharmacist doing what Chemists do already.
I also understand why people would be against too much of an emphasis on surgery (I do think it could be more fun by having quicker minor surgeries).

When I think of why average Joe Spaceman would enjoy a job, I imagine that Spaceman would enjoy applying something he/she has created to the game. Medical is one of the only jobs that isn't explicity roleplay focused in which you essentially create nothing. It's similar to Security in that the job is entirely service-focused, and depends entirely on the presence and actions of other spessmen to provide content. One would be hard-pressed to argue that Security is a boring job, even though both Security and Medical essentially do the same job- Rotate spacemen 90 degrees.

I do think, in the end, Medical could benefit from letting doctors have more agency over how they operate. As of now, doctors simply operate existing equipment in a public space, consuming a dwindling cache of resources while producing nothing. Imagine if doctors would make meaningful choices about the medicines or treatments they were able to carry - perhaps being able to produce non-chemical medicine? I think that could avoid "the surgery problem" while still giving the pharmacist a reason to exist. Simple things like casts versus splints,or a cauterizing as opposed to suturing a wound could have differing trade-offs in speed of healing, speed of application, range of action allowed to preserve a wound's healing, and so-on without majorly slowing down the game. It's very strange that the root of our medical system is that pills and shots cure everything, when so much of Medical's traffic is for traumatic injury
Allowing medical to manufacture basic supplies, or even choose starting medical machinery in medbay, could doctors to explore optimal "loadouts" for medbay. What if you have to choose between two stasis beds, or two cryo tubes, a number of defibriallators, or cloning? What if you could only carry enough supplies to care either your Frankenstein surgery tools, or your EMT kit? I think ideas that introduce a level of scarcity without paralyzing progress (more than one way to skin a cat) could be helpful to allow people to prefer going to medical if injured while still being able of self care.

Like it or not,it's my firm belief that if you wsnt to overhaul medical, you have to slow it down. Being able to slap a bandaid on your arm and keep shooting doesn't make for an interesting job for doctors.

TLDR give doctors something to make or create in order to tackle a more complex heslth system. Make medbay supplies scarce or decision-laden. Laugh at whiny pissbabies who want super fast CoD pace healing for CoD paced ss13 rounds.
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Re: Doctor is a shit job

Postby Kryson » Mon Jun 03, 2019 8:22 am #496544

We need more types of medicine to apply. The fun comes from how to optimally apply existing resources, to calomel that guy with 120u toxin, to turboheal that guy in deep brute crit with just a few units of atropine and salicylic.

While it is possible to add more medicines within the existing framework, we should also create more design space by adding more types of injuries, rework bruise packs as well as replacing the trekchems.

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Re: Doctor is a shit job

Postby CPTANT » Mon Jun 03, 2019 10:04 am #496551

cedarbridge wrote:
CPTANT wrote:
cedarbridge wrote:
CPTANT wrote:100% the reason why doctors should be merged with chemists.

No matter how many times this gets repeated its never going to be true.


Yes because years later doctors are totally still not a shit job :roll:

There is no good reason why the inconsistency between science and medbay regarding job merging should continue to exist. The removal of job segregation did wonders for science and the same segregation is still making medbay jobs very unrewarding to play.

Which is why a toxins scientist has access to robotics and the roboticist has access to xenobio and toxins. Wowie that argument worked out.


You realize toxins (and xenobio?) used to be its own job right?
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Re: Doctor is a shit job

Postby Xeroxemnas » Mon Jun 03, 2019 6:56 pm #496605

I'd let more doctors do surgery on me for augments and shit if I didn't have a crippling fear of having my brain thrown down disposals by some faggot traitor.

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Re: Doctor is a shit job

Postby knacker48 » Mon Jun 03, 2019 9:08 pm #496630

I also think the act of doing surgery needs to be more interesting. Having a wiki open on another tab isn't really a skill nor is it fun. Maybe have be sometime more dynamic where the steps aren't exactly the same each time. You could also apply different difficulties to more advanced surgeries, so you would have to perform the correct action in a certain amount of time and if you missed that window it could harm the person being worked on. If we went that route we could also have all or at least most surgeries unlocked from the beginning of the shift, but have tools that make it easier be locked off with research, so maybe a tool that gives you more time, a surgery table that stabilizes the patient etc. After all if your not confident in your abilities you really don't want to have someones death on your hands

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Re: Doctor is a shit job

Postby cedarbridge » Mon Jun 03, 2019 9:48 pm #496635

knacker48 wrote:I also think the act of doing surgery needs to be more interesting. Having a wiki open on another tab isn't really a skill nor is it fun. Maybe have be sometime more dynamic where the steps aren't exactly the same each time. You could also apply different difficulties to more advanced surgeries, so you would have to perform the correct action in a certain amount of time and if you missed that window it could harm the person being worked on. If we went that route we could also have all or at least most surgeries unlocked from the beginning of the shift, but have tools that make it easier be locked off with research, so maybe a tool that gives you more time, a surgery table that stabilizes the patient etc. After all if your not confident in your abilities you really don't want to have someones death on your hands

Before I got wrapped up with current projects I was working on outlining a system of "complications" that could arise during surgery that would require dynamic (or pseudo-dynamic" responses. These would scale depending on the condition of the patient, the place the patient was being operated on, if the patient is sedated/unconscious, etc Anything that makes the job into something more than "click the list" would be good, even if its "click the list, but also know the right tool to interject into your flowchart when X happens."

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Re: Doctor is a shit job

Postby Super Aggro Crag » Mon Jun 03, 2019 11:27 pm #496643

CPTANT wrote:
cedarbridge wrote:
CPTANT wrote:
cedarbridge wrote:
CPTANT wrote:100% the reason why doctors should be merged with chemists.

No matter how many times this gets repeated its never going to be true.


Yes because years later doctors are totally still not a shit job :roll:

There is no good reason why the inconsistency between science and medbay regarding job merging should continue to exist. The removal of job segregation did wonders for science and the same segregation is still making medbay jobs very unrewarding to play.

Which is why a toxins scientist has access to robotics and the roboticist has access to xenobio and toxins. Wowie that argument worked out.


You realize toxins (and xenobio?) used to be its own job right?

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Re: Doctor is a shit job

Postby oranges » Tue Jun 04, 2019 3:33 am #496676

Super Aggro Crag wrote:
CPTANT wrote:
cedarbridge wrote:
CPTANT wrote:
cedarbridge wrote:
CPTANT wrote:100% the reason why doctors should be merged with chemists.

No matter how many times this gets repeated its never going to be true.


Yes because years later doctors are totally still not a shit job :roll:

There is no good reason why the inconsistency between science and medbay regarding job merging should continue to exist. The removal of job segregation did wonders for science and the same segregation is still making medbay jobs very unrewarding to play.

Which is why a toxins scientist has access to robotics and the roboticist has access to xenobio and toxins. Wowie that argument worked out.


You realize toxins (and xenobio?) used to be its own job right?

false

where did this even come from lmao

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Re: Doctor is a shit job

Postby Super Aggro Crag » Tue Jun 04, 2019 3:35 am #496677

oranges wrote:
Super Aggro Crag wrote:
CPTANT wrote:
cedarbridge wrote:
CPTANT wrote:
cedarbridge wrote:
CPTANT wrote:100% the reason why doctors should be merged with chemists.

No matter how many times this gets repeated its never going to be true.


Yes because years later doctors are totally still not a shit job :roll:

There is no good reason why the inconsistency between science and medbay regarding job merging should continue to exist. The removal of job segregation did wonders for science and the same segregation is still making medbay jobs very unrewarding to play.

Which is why a toxins scientist has access to robotics and the roboticist has access to xenobio and toxins. Wowie that argument worked out.


You realize toxins (and xenobio?) used to be its own job right?

false

where did this even come from lmao

newfriends who originally played on downstream servers thinking their superfluous job splits were the original default on the codebase?
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Re: Doctor is a shit job

Postby ATHATH » Tue Jun 04, 2019 4:00 am #496679

I could see us just merging chemists and doctors into one "doctor" role.

Do doctors currently start with a crew pinpointer and handheld suit sensors monitor roundstart (instead of having to buy them from a vendor)? If not, they should, as recovering corpses whose suit sensors have been left on and bringing them back to be cloned is an important part of the doctor role.

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Re: Doctor is a shit job

Postby CPTANT » Tue Jun 04, 2019 9:47 am #496695

Super Aggro Crag wrote:
oranges wrote:
Super Aggro Crag wrote:
CPTANT wrote:
cedarbridge wrote:
CPTANT wrote:
cedarbridge wrote:
CPTANT wrote:100% the reason why doctors should be merged with chemists.

No matter how many times this gets repeated its never going to be true.


Yes because years later doctors are totally still not a shit job :roll:

There is no good reason why the inconsistency between science and medbay regarding job merging should continue to exist. The removal of job segregation did wonders for science and the same segregation is still making medbay jobs very unrewarding to play.

Which is why a toxins scientist has access to robotics and the roboticist has access to xenobio and toxins. Wowie that argument worked out.


You realize toxins (and xenobio?) used to be its own job right?

false

where did this even come from lmao

newfriends who originally played on downstream servers thinking their superfluous job splits were the original default on the codebase?


I doesn't actually matter anyway, the situation is that scientists have a broad job with plenty of different activities, they can do RnD, toxins, xeno and used to have telescience. Doctors can......wait in medbay until they perform surgery?
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Re: Doctor is a shit job

Postby Super Aggro Crag » Tue Jun 04, 2019 12:22 pm #496704

Use a handheld crew monitor and pinpointer to find people in need of aid
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Re: Doctor is a shit job

Postby cedarbridge » Tue Jun 04, 2019 2:03 pm #496709

CPTANT wrote:I doesn't actually matter anyway, the situation is that scientists have a broad job with plenty of different activities, they can do RnD, toxins, xeno and used to have telescience. Doctors can......wait in medbay until they perform surgery?

Alternatively, instead of looking at chemistry and saying "wow, there's a lot of button pushing content there, let's give that to everyone so we can have 7 people pushing buttons doing the same thing" maybe we can add actual content to the department. Science has diverse roles that allow scientists to do things. Medical has MDs who are a services role and chemists who are a production role. If you don't have anything to do at roundstart that means we should either find something that can be done, or players will have to conent themselves with interacting with other players until something requiring their services happens. That's really it. This obsession with "just make medbay a huge chemistry lab" is lazy and shortsighted.

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Re: Doctor is a shit job

Postby CPTANT » Tue Jun 04, 2019 2:38 pm #496713

Science has diverse roles that allow scientists to do things.


Which is exactly why medbay also needs diverse roles that allows doctors to do things, like a combination of producing and applying medication. Scientists have power over their entire process from RnD to fabrication and distribution (given that they have enough resources, but chemistry also needs resources). The process isn't divided into niche jobs along that process.

There isn't any role on the station that doesn't have any actually round start tasks like doctors, except for RP roles and the unique role of security. Any round start task that doctors would be given will revolve around increasing their capacity to heal people, but that completely overlaps with the responsibility of the chemists. Hell, scientists have more tools to become doctors than doctors because they can just construct a chem master.

Interacting with other players is an option with any role, but it doesn't really give any reason to play doctor in particular.
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Re: Doctor is a shit job

Postby cedarbridge » Tue Jun 04, 2019 3:07 pm #496717

CPTANT wrote:
Science has diverse roles that allow scientists to do things.


Which is exactly why medbay also needs diverse roles that allows doctors to do things, like a combination of producing and applying medication. Scientists have power over their entire process from RnD to fabrication and distribution (given that they have enough resources, but chemistry also needs resources). The process isn't divided into niche jobs along that process.

There isn't any role on the station that doesn't have any actually round start tasks like doctors, except for RP roles and the unique role of security. Any round start task that doctors would be given will revolve around increasing their capacity to heal people, but that completely overlaps with the responsibility of the chemists. Hell, scientists have more tools to become doctors than doctors because they can just construct a chem master.

Interacting with other players is an option with any role, but it doesn't really give any reason to play doctor in particular.

Make everyone a chemist != diverse roles that allow doctors to do things

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Re: Doctor is a shit job

Postby CPTANT » Tue Jun 04, 2019 3:30 pm #496718

cedarbridge wrote:
CPTANT wrote:
Science has diverse roles that allow scientists to do things.


Which is exactly why medbay also needs diverse roles that allows doctors to do things, like a combination of producing and applying medication. Scientists have power over their entire process from RnD to fabrication and distribution (given that they have enough resources, but chemistry also needs resources). The process isn't divided into niche jobs along that process.

There isn't any role on the station that doesn't have any actually round start tasks like doctors, except for RP roles and the unique role of security. Any round start task that doctors would be given will revolve around increasing their capacity to heal people, but that completely overlaps with the responsibility of the chemists. Hell, scientists have more tools to become doctors than doctors because they can just construct a chem master.

Interacting with other players is an option with any role, but it doesn't really give any reason to play doctor in particular.

Make everyone a chemist != diverse roles that allow doctors to do things


Going from having nothing to do to having something to do at roundstart is a pretty big step in diversification.
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Re: Doctor is a shit job

Postby Super Aggro Crag » Tue Jun 04, 2019 6:35 pm #496733

Just have CPTants ckey start missing a leg and bleeding out and suffering brain damage at roundstart so we have something to do.
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Re: Doctor is a shit job

Postby CDranzer » Tue Jun 04, 2019 10:51 pm #496760

Super Aggro Crag wrote:Just have CPTants ckey start missing a leg and bleeding out and suffering brain damage at roundstart so we have something to do.

They'd just wait for them to die then throw them in the cloner

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Re: Doctor is a shit job

Postby CPTANT » Thu Jun 06, 2019 3:53 pm #497020

The doctor role is flawed in that unlike the majority of other departmental roles it doesn't actually have the capacity to improve their own department.

Engineering:

Engineers: Improve engine, solars, upgrade machinery, build new machinery
Atmos techs: Set up turbines, improve atmos layout, create exotic gasses

Cargo:

Cargo techs: gather cargo points through crates and bounties
Miners: Go the Lavaland and fuck shit up for loot

Science:

Scientists: Do research, breed slimes, make bombs
Roboticist: build borgs and mechs

service:
Cook: prepare elaborate food
Botany: Grow plants with great power
Bartender: prepare drinks

Medbay:
Chemist: create new medications to treat patients, supply chemicals to botany and science
Virologist: Make useful viruses.
Geneticist: unlock genetics powers
Doctor:?????? Fuck around contributing nothing to the state of medbay at all, perform the occasional surgery.

Doctors do not contribute to improving medbay and any task they would be given that would lead to improving their capacity to heal people would overlap with the chemist.
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Re: Doctor is a shit job

Postby cedarbridge » Thu Jun 06, 2019 4:11 pm #497023

I notice you left security off the list. There's a reason for that.

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Re: Doctor is a shit job

Postby CPTANT » Thu Jun 06, 2019 4:34 pm #497024

cedarbridge wrote:I notice you left security off the list. There's a reason for that.


Yes because securities round dynamic is incomparable to the functioning of the rest of the station.
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Re: Doctor is a shit job

Postby cedarbridge » Thu Jun 06, 2019 4:40 pm #497025

CPTANT wrote:
cedarbridge wrote:I notice you left security off the list. There's a reason for that.


Yes because securities round dynamic is incomparable to the functioning of the rest of the station.

Not really. Security without people to arrest or crimes to investigate are on patrol mode in the same way that competent MDs are on patrol mode without active patients. This is especially true of the Warden who has basically nothing to do until an arrest is made or certain round antagonists are announced.

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Re: Doctor is a shit job

Postby CPTANT » Thu Jun 06, 2019 5:22 pm #497029

cedarbridge wrote:
CPTANT wrote:
cedarbridge wrote:I notice you left security off the list. There's a reason for that.


Yes because securities round dynamic is incomparable to the functioning of the rest of the station.

Not really. Security without people to arrest or crimes to investigate are on patrol mode in the same way that competent MDs are on patrol mode without active patients. This is especially true of the Warden who has basically nothing to do until an arrest is made or certain round antagonists are announced.


Yes you can stroll about on the odd chance that someone needs a bruise pack, but IMO that highlights that they actually have nothing to do. Strolling about is possible with any role but doesn't make doctor particularly attractive to play.
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Re: Doctor is a shit job

Postby cedarbridge » Thu Jun 06, 2019 5:28 pm #497030

CPTANT wrote:
cedarbridge wrote:
CPTANT wrote:
cedarbridge wrote:I notice you left security off the list. There's a reason for that.


Yes because securities round dynamic is incomparable to the functioning of the rest of the station.

Not really. Security without people to arrest or crimes to investigate are on patrol mode in the same way that competent MDs are on patrol mode without active patients. This is especially true of the Warden who has basically nothing to do until an arrest is made or certain round antagonists are announced.


Yes you can stroll about on the odd chance that someone needs a bruise pack, but IMO that highlights that they actually have nothing to do. Strolling about is possible with any role but doesn't make doctor particularly attractive to play.

Did you entirely miss the point?

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Re: Doctor is a shit job

Postby CPTANT » Thu Jun 06, 2019 6:06 pm #497034

cedarbridge wrote:
CPTANT wrote:
cedarbridge wrote:
CPTANT wrote:
cedarbridge wrote:I notice you left security off the list. There's a reason for that.


Yes because securities round dynamic is incomparable to the functioning of the rest of the station.

Not really. Security without people to arrest or crimes to investigate are on patrol mode in the same way that competent MDs are on patrol mode without active patients. This is especially true of the Warden who has basically nothing to do until an arrest is made or certain round antagonists are announced.


Yes you can stroll about on the odd chance that someone needs a bruise pack, but IMO that highlights that they actually have nothing to do. Strolling about is possible with any role but doesn't make doctor particularly attractive to play.

Did you entirely miss the point?


Your description of what doctors should do was walk around the station, it is something that happens because there isn't actually something to do.
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Re: Doctor is a shit job

Postby cedarbridge » Thu Jun 06, 2019 6:45 pm #497036

CPTANT wrote:Your description of what doctors should do was walk around the station, it is something that happens because there isn't actually something to do.

And your description matches 100% with what sec does if we're going to pretend that that's all there is to each of these jobs.

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Re: Doctor is a shit job

Postby CPTANT » Thu Jun 06, 2019 6:48 pm #497038

cedarbridge wrote:
CPTANT wrote:Your description of what doctors should do was walk around the station, it is something that happens because there isn't actually something to do.

And your description matches 100% with what sec does if we're going to pretend that that's all there is to each of these jobs.


It is an actual weakness in the job of security, but far less profound because security has a strong investigative role and conflict with antagonists. It is more profound in doctors because their actual job is also so weak and often performed by the crew themselves. Also security officers don't have another job that does their job, but just better, namely the chemists.
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Re: Doctor is a shit job

Postby cedarbridge » Thu Jun 06, 2019 7:21 pm #497040

CPTANT wrote:
cedarbridge wrote:
CPTANT wrote:Your description of what doctors should do was walk around the station, it is something that happens because there isn't actually something to do.

And your description matches 100% with what sec does if we're going to pretend that that's all there is to each of these jobs.


It is an actual weakness in the job of security, but far less profound because security has a strong investigative role and conflict with antagonists. It is more profound in doctors because their actual job is also so weak and often performed by the crew themselves. Also security officers don't have another job that does their job, but just better, namely the chemists.

Sec absolutely has another job that does their job (apart from arrests for minor crime, most of the time.) They're called "literally everyone."

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Re: Doctor is a shit job

Postby Skillywatt » Thu Jun 06, 2019 7:25 pm #497042

It's true. I can't count how many times we've had an APB out for a stimpacked, no-slip equipped murder-bonerer only to find his bloody corpse surrounded by 3 assistants and the clown.

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Re: Doctor is a shit job

Postby PKPenguin321 » Fri Jun 07, 2019 2:04 am #497093

why the fuck yall talking about sec for no reason (lookin @ u cedar)
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Re: Doctor is a shit job

Postby cedarbridge » Fri Jun 07, 2019 3:28 pm #497121

PKPenguin321 wrote:why the fuck yall talking about sec for no reason (lookin @ u cedar)

His complaint was that med doctors have nothing to do at roundstart. I pointed out that sec has a comparable amount to do at round start and they do it more or less the same way (apart from MD's having several tools that make finding patients easier than sec's tools for finding perps.
He further complained that med's job is "done by everyone" and thus obsoleted. I pointed out that sec's job is "done by everyone" in a similar or more effective manner.

The bigger point is that there's no point trying to make every job homogeneous. Yes, several jobs make things that progress throughout the round and that's neat. That doesn't make a job bad if it doesn't have that feature.

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Re: Doctor is a shit job

Postby Muncher21 » Fri Jun 07, 2019 5:16 pm #497136

CPTANT wrote:Doctor:?????? Fuck around contributing nothing to the state of medbay at all, perform the occasional surgery.Organize and track medbay supplies, administer healing chemicals and supplies, stabilize critical patients dragged to medbay, do surgery, attempt defibrillation before cloning


It's a complete joke that people think players will get quick access to healing supplies without doctors there to hand it out. Chemists certainly won't take time out of their button pushing to scan a patient and give them what they need.

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Re: Doctor is a shit job

Postby CPTANT » Fri Jun 07, 2019 9:10 pm #497164

Muncher21 wrote:
CPTANT wrote:Doctor:?????? Fuck around contributing nothing to the state of medbay at all, perform the occasional surgery.Organize and track medbay supplies, administer healing chemicals and supplies, stabilize critical patients dragged to medbay, do surgery, attempt defibrillation before cloning


It's a complete joke that people think players will get quick access to healing supplies without doctors there to hand it out. Chemists certainly won't take time out of their button pushing to scan a patient and give them what they need.


It's usually just the person that brings someone in that either heals them or throws them in stasis/cryo. Dump styptic powder, silver sulfadiazine and some charcoal in the chem storage (or wherever) people just self serve.

Organize and track medbay supplies, administer healing chemicals and supplies


The doctor job is useless for this because they don't actually improve the supply situation, it is once again the chemists that actually control this.
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Re: Doctor is a shit job

Postby Whoneedspacee » Fri Jun 07, 2019 11:00 pm #497172

The doctor job takes no skill and something a very experienced doctor can do someone with a wiki page open can do in the exact same way with the exact same speed. On top of this unlike most jobs there's no meta being evolved or adapted for medical, making it a very boring pick, especially since for newer players there's no one to look up to as an ideal. I've inspired my fair share of people to get good at jobs like mining and atmospherics, medical has no such person.

If you want to make people interested in a job you have to add some skill to it, it's as simple as that, the best medical doctor should be vastly better than a person who hasn't played the job very much, which is not the case right now. Players aren't being rewarded for playing medical doctor and a security officer with access to medical can do as good or better than people who have been playing medical doctor all round and are also experienced at the job.

Security who have the intention of being medical are analagous to combat medics. They're able to deal with antagonists and prioritize their own lives, making them much more effective and they can keep going. Paramedics however generally just get gunned down or destroyed when medbay is inevitably bombed or attacked.

Medical doctor needs something that they themselves can do that influences the pacing of the game. Something like revival surgery should be better than cloning but it just ends up being a long term recovery process that is overall worse than a max upgraded cloner, even though surgeries like revival take up so many techweb points of their own.

If you use revival surgery on someone they are inflicted with major traumas which can only be cured by brain surgery (which always has a chance of failing by the way and massively fucks up the patient), have a low amount of blood generally, have brain damage, etc. It's easier to just literally build more cloners, and you don't need techwebs to unlock an advanced surgery which can only be performed at a surgery table with a surgery computer.

However I don't even recommend just buffing this stuff without adding some skillful element to surgery and healing, because it's unreasonable to buff something that takes no skill, it shouldn't be better than someone who has mastered their craft.

tl;dr Doctor is a shit job

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