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Fusion temperatures are getting a little stupid.

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Fusion temperatures are getting a little stupid.

Postby Dr_bee » Mon Jul 22, 2019 7:50 pm #504222

Seriously, someone reached 18,873,400,000,000C on the escape shuttle by pumping fusion into the distro.

Tungsten vaporizes at 5930C the surface of a class O star is only around 49726.85.

The canister should vaporize before even getting near that point.



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Ghilker
 
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Re: Fusion temperatures are getting a little stupid.

Postby Ghilker » Mon Jul 22, 2019 8:51 pm #504231

Once i reached 4*10^30 K in a canister. You can't put logic in a game, otherwise many things that are present should be removed, like if you go to space with a shirt only you die in 2 seconds because you should literally explode from the inside due to the low pressure

Also fusion in distro takes time to enter the station, and if someone see that (AI, an engi, an atmos tech), you can react quickly enough to secure some places by shutting down/welding vents and scrubbers preventing the flooding effectively

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Re: Fusion temperatures are getting a little stupid.

Postby Dr_bee » Mon Jul 22, 2019 8:57 pm #504234

Ghilker wrote:Once i reached 4*10^30 K in a canister. You can't put logic in a game, otherwise many things that are present should be removed, like if you go to space with a shirt only you die in 2 seconds because you should literally explode from the inside due to the low pressure

Also fusion in distro takes time to enter the station, and if someone see that (AI, an engi, an atmos tech), you can react quickly enough to secure some places by shutting down/welding vents and scrubbers preventing the flooding effectively


I am not talking about adding logic, Im talking about adding sanity. temperature of the kind being generated cant really be fixed through normal means such as space heaters and burn through even the suits designed to be immune to heat damage!

I am not talking about adding realism, im talking about balancing fusion temps around sane temperatures.

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Re: Fusion temperatures are getting a little stupid.

Postby Ghilker » Mon Jul 22, 2019 9:17 pm #504235

is fusion, what is a sane temperature for you?

also is already balanced as it takes a long time to make all the required stuff to produce a "low" temperature fusion

also also the suits are not immune to heat, they are heat resistant. Is normal to have a certain threshold above that even hardsuits burn up

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Re: Fusion temperatures are getting a little stupid.

Postby Dr_bee » Mon Jul 22, 2019 9:36 pm #504238

Ghilker wrote:also also the suits are not immune to heat, they are heat resistant. Is normal to have a certain threshold above that even hardsuits burn up


So why is a heat threshold on hardsuits reasonable but a heat threshold on walls, pipes, and canisters unreasonable?

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Re: Fusion temperatures are getting a little stupid.

Postby CPTANT » Mon Jul 22, 2019 10:09 pm #504251

fusion in distro is like an invisible wall of death going through the station.

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Re: Fusion temperatures are getting a little stupid.

Postby Ghilker » Mon Jul 22, 2019 10:56 pm #504265

Dr_bee wrote:
Ghilker wrote:also also the suits are not immune to heat, they are heat resistant. Is normal to have a certain threshold above that even hardsuits burn up


So why is a heat threshold on hardsuits reasonable but a heat threshold on walls, pipes, and canisters unreasonable?


Walls let heat pass if it's high enough (even rwalls), but if you make a threshold for canisters you effectively lock out atmos from making fusion because no one will take the risk of doing it just for it to explode on your face. And even if you put a limit, what for? The lowest temperature will still be very much letal and it doesn't change much between 1*10^8 and 1*10^20 K in terms of lethality

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Re: Fusion temperatures are getting a little stupid.

Postby Cobby » Mon Jul 22, 2019 11:24 pm #504271

Then don't do fusion if you can't take on the risks.

Those numbers are absurd.
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Re: Fusion temperatures are getting a little stupid.

Postby NoxVS » Tue Jul 23, 2019 12:37 am #504287

Cobby wrote:Then don't do fusion if you can't take on the risks.

Those numbers are absurd.

The problem is usually the guy doing it is fine with the risks, but the rest of the station doesn't really have a choice if the station suddenly becomes hotter than a star and everyone dies instantly.
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Re: Fusion temperatures are getting a little stupid.

Postby PKPenguin321 » Tue Jul 23, 2019 1:29 am #504296

Cobby wrote:Then don't do fusion if you can't take on the risks.

Those numbers are absurd.

bruh have u seen some of the busted shit people have been doing with it lmao
the complaint is not "waah its too risky" even a little bit
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Re: Fusion temperatures are getting a little stupid.

Postby oranges » Tue Jul 23, 2019 3:54 am #504306

Im not sure this is feedback, it's just that most canisters pipes and other atmos sinks and sources are made of an unobtainum that can contain the heat and pressure of the entire universe without rupturing

Someone is free to add burst and leak interactions and stuff
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Re: Fusion temperatures are getting a little stupid.

Postby oranges » Tue Jul 23, 2019 3:55 am #504307

Personally I wanted to see fusion require powered shielding to actually do, seeing as temperatures at those heat levels should destroy ordinary materials that the station is made out of (immediately venting to space)
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Re: Fusion temperatures are getting a little stupid.

Postby Anonmare » Thu Jul 25, 2019 7:55 pm #504719

I unironically suggested wall melting in the past and ya'll laughed at me.

Also if you care about the station, make your reactor in space - you don't need blueprints to create rooms, only to edit existing ones. I kind of wish there was a TEG so you could use fusion's heat to power the station
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Re: Fusion temperatures are getting a little stupid.

Postby oranges » Thu Jul 25, 2019 9:16 pm #504736

first of all, there is a teg, but personally I thin it's better if the supermatter generated heat and pressure gases that was then piped into turbines, that actually generated the station power
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Re: Fusion temperatures are getting a little stupid.

Postby Cobby » Thu Jul 25, 2019 9:55 pm #504745

PKPenguin321 wrote:
Cobby wrote:Then don't do fusion if you can't take on the risks.

Those numbers are absurd.

bruh have u seen some of the busted shit people have been doing with it lmao
the complaint is not "waah its too risky" even a little bit


sorry my post was in response to "if you make it risky no one will do fusion" post.
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Re: Fusion temperatures are getting a little stupid.

Postby MisterPerson » Fri Jul 26, 2019 12:59 am #504761

oranges wrote:Personally I wanted to see fusion require powered shielding to actually do, seeing as temperatures at those heat levels should destroy ordinary materials that the station is made out of (immediately venting to space)


That's a bit of an understatement. Here's the boiling point of a bunch of metals. Not the melting point, the boiling point. As in gaseous aluminum is achieved at 2467C. Not that I'm strictly speaking making a realism argument or anything, just generally agreeing extreme temperatures should absolutely have some nasty effects that are not solved simply by venting the hot gas. Think melted electronics, equipment, etc.
I code for the code project and moderate the code sections of the forums. I haven't played in like 2 years so don't listen to my suggestions.

Why realism is stupid:
Spoiler:
Wiz, the project lead of Europa Universalis IV:

Immersion/flavor is playing a WW2 shooter and using a mosin-nagant instead of a laser gun - this is important.

Realism is playing a WW2 shooter and having to spend 2 months in hospital everytime you get shot - stupid and detrimental to gameplay. Nobody actually wants a realistic game, which is why realism arguments are so selectively used.
Source: http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/ind ... t-19679470

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Re: Fusion temperatures are getting a little stupid.

Postby Dr_bee » Fri Jul 26, 2019 2:36 am #504769

MisterPerson wrote:
oranges wrote:Personally I wanted to see fusion require powered shielding to actually do, seeing as temperatures at those heat levels should destroy ordinary materials that the station is made out of (immediately venting to space)


That's a bit of an understatement. Here's the boiling point of a bunch of metals. Not the melting point, the boiling point. As in gaseous aluminum is achieved at 2467C. Not that I'm strictly speaking making a realism argument or anything, just generally agreeing extreme temperatures should absolutely have some nasty effects that are not solved simply by venting the hot gas. Think melted electronics, equipment, etc.


Like I mentioned before, we are seeing temperatures that are several hundred times hotter than the surface of the hottest star. Not only is that silly from a realism standpoint it makes fixing the problem impossible, as the current tools at the crews disposal cant cool the area fast enough to matter.

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Re: Fusion temperatures are getting a little stupid.

Postby deedubya » Fri Jul 26, 2019 3:45 am #504775

Dr_bee wrote:
MisterPerson wrote:
oranges wrote:Personally I wanted to see fusion require powered shielding to actually do, seeing as temperatures at those heat levels should destroy ordinary materials that the station is made out of (immediately venting to space)


That's a bit of an understatement. Here's the boiling point of a bunch of metals. Not the melting point, the boiling point. As in gaseous aluminum is achieved at 2467C. Not that I'm strictly speaking making a realism argument or anything, just generally agreeing extreme temperatures should absolutely have some nasty effects that are not solved simply by venting the hot gas. Think melted electronics, equipment, etc.


Like I mentioned before, we are seeing temperatures that are several hundred times hotter than the surface of the hottest star. Not only is that silly from a realism standpoint it makes fixing the problem impossible, as the current tools at the crews disposal cant cool the area fast enough to matter.

I'm pretty sure uncontained fusion is meant to be a round ending event. Just like a singuloth or a tesloose, fusion in the halls is going to end the round.

Not that I don't agree that seeing 20 zeroes in fusion temperature readouts is horrifically retarded, though.
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Re: Fusion temperatures are getting a little stupid.

Postby Yakumo_Chen » Sun Jul 28, 2019 7:19 am #505000

deedubya wrote:I'm pretty sure uncontained fusion is meant to be a round ending event. Just like a singuloth or a tesloose, fusion in the halls is going to end the round.

Not that I don't agree that seeing 20 zeroes in fusion temperature readouts is horrifically retarded, though.

At least with a singulo or tesla you can see what's killing you, or at least make some sane attempt to avoid it.

Fusion gas pumps through the entire station pipe network and has the potential of killing everyone, at once. Just releasing it straight into the air in the center of the station also has the same effect.

There's also not much risk to the actual user since they're likely one of the few people that will know what's going to happen / how to avoid it, wherea singulo and tesla often kill the releaser unless they fuck off to another Z level.
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Re: Fusion temperatures are getting a little stupid.

Postby Davidchan » Sun Jul 28, 2019 8:07 pm #505057

Ghilker wrote:You can't put logic in a game, otherwise many things that are present should be removed, like if you go to space with a shirt only you die in 2 seconds because you should literally explode from the inside due to the low pressure


That's literally not how it works. Yes, you'd die with exposure, and vacuum conditions can cause severe damage to soft tissue, you would not explode. Accidents at NASA have shown that people can survive several minutes in near-vacuum conditions, though you pass out after 15 or so seconds without an oxygen supply. With an oxygen tank and some heavy clothing (like a firesuit) you could survive a space walk with no serious damage, though the experience would be unpleasant to say the least. The very idea that we'd explode in low pressure is laughable at the idea that we would implode or flatten at pressures 2-5 times an Earth Atmosphere.

As for the topic at hand, it'd definitely be in the best interest of the game for Canisters, Pumps, Scrubbers and even piping to have maximum limits of pressure and heat they can contain. Perhaps a blue space Canister science could create that would actually allow those ridiculous high temperatures and pressures. May even need to add an actual plasma matter state where gases that reach a certain temperature point convert into a very noticeable cloud of burning gas, even if its just something cosmetic like a green or purple fire effect.
Last edited by Davidchan on Mon Jul 29, 2019 12:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Fusion temperatures are getting a little stupid.

Postby lmwevil » Sun Jul 28, 2019 8:56 pm #505068

if there was a state where air was so hot that it became a special sprite overlay to indicate it's fusion/plasma hot that'd probably be sane. or give us the firelocks that baycode has to see atmos on the other side so you know you're gonna be husked in seconds if you open it

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Re: Fusion temperatures are getting a little stupid.

Postby MisterPerson » Sun Jul 28, 2019 10:06 pm #505075

Could also change air alarms so you can tell what the problem is at a glance rather than just a generic warning or danger.
I code for the code project and moderate the code sections of the forums. I haven't played in like 2 years so don't listen to my suggestions.

Why realism is stupid:
Spoiler:
Wiz, the project lead of Europa Universalis IV:

Immersion/flavor is playing a WW2 shooter and using a mosin-nagant instead of a laser gun - this is important.

Realism is playing a WW2 shooter and having to spend 2 months in hospital everytime you get shot - stupid and detrimental to gameplay. Nobody actually wants a realistic game, which is why realism arguments are so selectively used.
Source: http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/ind ... t-19679470

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Re: Fusion temperatures are getting a little stupid.

Postby oranges » Sun Jul 28, 2019 11:32 pm #505096

I dont' agree fusion should be round ending, we have plenty of round enders already.

heat and pressure of that magnitude should always immediately vent into space
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Re: Fusion temperatures are getting a little stupid.

Postby deedubya » Fri Aug 02, 2019 12:06 am #505739

oranges wrote:I dont' agree fusion should be round ending, we have plenty of round enders already.

heat and pressure of that magnitude should always immediately vent into space

Is it time for melting walls, then? If so, I'd recommend having the melting point be something that realistically is only possible through fusion(or thermite usage) so it's primary purpose winds up being as a safeguard against fusion temp flooding.
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Re: Fusion temperatures are getting a little stupid.

Postby Shadowflame909 » Fri Aug 02, 2019 12:22 am #505740

Fusion has husked an ASHDRAKE IN 3 SECONDS. a being with 2500 health and 50% burn resistance being husked by fusion in 3 seconds

It also instant kills the legion 3x over at round-end.

This is some wild junk.
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Re: Fusion temperatures are getting a little stupid.

Postby Dr_bee » Fri Aug 02, 2019 5:02 am #505769

You can cause the infinate radiation death radius with fusion again by dumping it into the SM. This causes a temp overflow, making the SM think its as cool as possible while the radiation it produces is -inf. This kills anyone walking within a significant ever expanding radius instantly.

The numbers involved in fusion are so high they are causing fucking overflow bugs. Its time to stop.

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Re: Fusion temperatures are getting a little stupid.

Postby Davidchan » Sat Aug 03, 2019 1:36 pm #505962

The easiest short term solution would be to have a maxheat on gases or what have you parallel to maxcap for bombs.
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Re: Fusion temperatures are getting a little stupid.

Postby Critawakets » Wed Aug 14, 2019 10:07 pm #507704

Lets be real if a high-tier fusion reaction's gas escapes into space with that kind of heat, the star system that SS13 is in will get a MUCH higher ambient temperature in space, along with it being PRESSURIZED.

Alright but seriously, these temperatures and pressures are so high that it makes balancing the TEG (and therefore power) basically impossible. We cant have a PTL because power is so easily broken.
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Re: Fusion temperatures are getting a little stupid.

Postby Screemonster » Wed Aug 14, 2019 11:25 pm #507707

Ghilker wrote:Once i reached 4*10^30 K in a canister.

push it a little further

see if you can get it past the planck temperature

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Re: Fusion temperatures are getting a little stupid.

Postby NecromancerAnne » Tue Aug 20, 2019 9:49 pm #508644

Last night, we had a round where someone's fusion setup on Pubby cooked the gas in atmos, which also cooked space and the spaceloop for the SM.

The result was everyone on the station dying, the supermatter going thermonuclear and us having to rush the end of the round

This was by complete accident and simply having the gas be present in atmospherics. This is getting absolutely fucking stupid.

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Re: Fusion temperatures are getting a little stupid.

Postby oranges » Tue Aug 20, 2019 10:07 pm #508650

so fix it?
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