Cobbychem: A Separate Thread

[oranges]

Bottom post of the previous page:

You could give them a surgery kit or something yeah.

[wesoda25]

In the past I think? we tried to limit roundstart surgery tools, is that out the window? Could real tools (in this case drapes, scalpel, hypo) be included in kits, or would you want some sort of slightly worse “emergency surgical tool” for them?

[oranges]

Yeah it's definitely out the window, we're embracing surgery.

I was thinking just the absolute basics in a personal box/kit

[oranges]

Also regarding organs, organs are specifically supposed to be healed via surgery

I don't like the trend that everyone is doing of making every single issue in the game solved by chemistry/reagents just because it happens to be one of the most fleshed out systems in the game.

im perfectly happy for surgery's to be added that heal organs, or consume reagents on touch to the organ to heal it, before you put it back in.

But I dont' want straight organ healing via chems because the surgery system needs fleshing out too

[Arathian]

Interesting. I had this conversation on discord.

I took a stance that all organs should have repair surgeries for them with (I think actionninja? I might be remembering wrong and it was cobby) saying he saw no need and that the natural healing rate is enough.

Imo if you will focus on organ damage, a way to repair them is a must.

[Dr_bee]

I actually like the current system of transplant only. There are already two surgeries to stop lung and heart failure respectively if the damage gets too bad. The natural healing rate of organs also puts a natural limit on most chem healing, at least the chems with organ damage as a side effect.

I do think there should be chemical methods of organ healing however, but they must be rezadone tier hard to produce. First option should be transplant, second option for competent crews would be chemical as it would require actual work to produce the chemical.

[Arathian]

Okey, I feel I have been yelling too much how I don't like stuff and how the new chems are useless (and why) and feel bad to use (and why) and haven't been offering solutions at all.

I think I got one. The goals of the new chem system are:

1) Offer healing with downsides that have to be addressed

2) They have to be addressed by doctors

3) Involve surgery too while at it.

My solution works with all 3 points.

Chems should be rebalanced to be good at healing. At least as much as the old trekchems. Advanced chems should, with minimum time delay, take someone from deep crit to full health in a few seconds. They should need no special application process, they should be fast and easy to use. Anyone can easily grab a patch, throw it on themselves and be back to full health in a few seconds like in the past.

Passive organ damage healing is completely removed for all organs. All of them. There are now stages of organ failures (let's say 3-4 stages) that each slowly adds more negative effects every time you reach a threshold with the final effect being "you got a dead organ that effectively doesn't exist anymore" - which depending on the organ results in a quick death.

All meds do some sort of organ damage. First couple times you use a med, you are safe. After that, you start reaching the stages of organ failure. More potent meds do more organ damage or might damage multiple organs.

Surgeries to repair organs are added for all organs. Dead organs cannot be repaired and need to be replaced. Cloning people with dead organs clones them with said damaged organs. You need to actually fix the things (sorry toolbox n' clone, you took the meds, you gotta get repaired)

There. Chemistry produces good drugs people want to use. Using the drugs will result in long term damages that can be mitigated and are worth the immediate healing, but eventually players will want to fix them. Doctors now have the job of surgerying and fixing up a lot of people as well as diagnosing what is failing. You can add a lot of cool effects to organ failure effects.

Chemistry is useful. Drugs are useful. Doctors are useful. Cloning is useful but not the end-all-be-all, surgery is central to doctors.

All targets get theoretically achieved.

Any feedback on this idea?

[Dr_bee]

All targets get theoretically achieved.

Any feedback on this idea?

I like it but I also enjoy the passive organ healing. as it basically acts like a cooldown to use the healing chemicals, but one that can be pushed if need be. I also enjoy the idea of debilitating side effects as well as organ damage, such as screen shake or speed penalties. Self healing becomes something that can be done, but only one or two times before you get debilitating organ damage that needs to be addressed by medical in some way, and not something that is attractive to do in the heat of battle.

Options for dealing with organ damage should be Cat1 only, and should be organ replacement or a high tier chem that requires more than one department to make such as rezadone.

Cloning should be techwebs only, and should only print bodies, for organ harvesting and for brain transplant.

The downside of all this additional importance for doctors is that if medbay is attacked the entire station is basically fucked. So medbay probably should be redesigned to have better security, including more than one officer.

[oranges]

Chems should be rebalanced to be good at healing. At least as much as the old trekchems.

So you can forget about damage as an issue again and carry on your merry ways? Madness.

Chemical based healing where you have zero required engagement to heal people cannot surpass the ones where the medbay doctor is actively engaged, so I don't see us going back to such a simplistic chem setup.

[Arathian]

I think my solution is to focus the "healing" part of the doctors away from the "make the doll blue" and instead on fixing long term damage such as organ failure.

Chems could have effects such as cloning damage. Multiple organ damage or even rads. Persistant effects while active etc

Good doctors would quickly uncrit patients but then have to actually heal the patient with the now-failing lungs.

Let's say X chem quickly heals brute and fire damage. Also massively damages lungs. Gamer grabs a 5 pack off of the chemist and plays with toolboxes in maint:

He slaps one on. He now has tier 1 lung damage. He has a much lower threshold to go into oxyloss crit.

Slaps on a 2nd one. He now is at the 2nd threshold. Oxyloss doesn't heal naturally even outside of crit.

Slaps a 3rd one. Now he can't run at all and will take occasional oxyloss damage. His lungs are seriously failing.

Now he has to either find a fellow tider to do a ghetto surgery or go to medbay where the docs have to fix his lungs. If he slaps another one, his lungs are gone and he needs new ones printed.

----

These effects mean that healing the doll is both effective but also limited with really bad effects if you don't get a doctor to look at you. On average, players would get at least a couple organ failures a shift with doctors needing to fix them.

[angelstarri]

I tried to learn the system and forget all of my preconceptions about cobbychems. Here's what I've learned from playing three days straight as nothing but an antag-disabled Medical Doctor:

1) Brute damage is always healed by brute packs when available.

• Trophazole is a fun chem and works really well but is really limited in quantity due to being dependant on Chemistry.
• Salicyclic acid makes for a good replacement if available.
• Saline works well on a pinch.
• Sanguibital is too difficult to acquire and the penalties for using it are too severe.
• Libital is not effective and has a really bad drawback.

2) Burn damage is always healed by ointment packs when available.

• Rhigoxane is a great unique chem and has a wide variety of uses but is limited in quantity due to being dependant on Chemistry.
• Oxandrolone is also really good at healing but is dependant on Chemistry.
• Saline works well on a pinch as in the case with brute damage.
• Ichiyuri is hard to get and the drawbacks are too pronounced to warrant using in an emergency.
• Aiuri doesn't heal enough to be effective.

3) Toxin damage is very difficult and time-consuming to manage. All of the chems have really low OD levels for their desired effect and thus require multiple applications to fully heal a person with severe toxin damage, especially as toxin damage is now more prevalent than ever.

• Syriniver is effective only when applied via IV and in a 20% solution as the Chemistry guide advises, but as said previously it requires multiple doses for people with large amounts of toxin damage. This in conjunction with its relative shortage in the station makes for a difficult chem to manage.
• Fiziver is difficult to acquire as it is dependant on Chemistry, but it's slightly better and safer than Syriniver. It should be the go-to treatment in non-combat scenarios.
• Multiver has very little application except in cases where no other anti-toxin chemicals are available. It helps as a detoxifier, but has a bad downside and doesn't warrant use for its relatively minuscule toxin damage treatment.
• Radiation is still impossible to get rid of. Pentetic acid and Potassium Iodide are ineffective at healing people with severe radiation damage, and since radiation spreads it is really advisable that you keep all radiated crewmen out so you can clone them later when they die.

4) Suffocation damage

• Salbutamol is really good at treating suffocation damage and should be the go-to chem to do so, but they are limited in availability due to the fact that obtaining some is dependant on Chemistry.
• Tirimol is a decent chemical but shouldn't be used in combat or threat scenarios due to its drowsiness side effects.
• Epinephrine is still a really good chem in emergencies. Not much to say about it.
• Convermol is never advised in critical situations or any type of situation in that matter. It overcomplicates treatment of a patient and switches damage from one of the easiest to treat to one of the hardest. I've never actually used convermol except maybe the one time when I didn't have any other sort of oxygen deprivation treating drug, but then I realized that CPR is way more effective at healing suffocation damage and thus I stopped using it. This is the worst performing chemical of the bunch.

Here are some of my conclusions:

• Sanguibital dosages are a guaranteed death sentence if the patient rushes off to combat. This may be by design, but it should be less pronounced than it currently is. Maybe reduce the time its present on metabolism.
• Libital should have its drawback removed. The healing capabilities of the medication don't warrant such a heavy negative trait.
• Ichiyuri is very annoying and pointless to use due to its itching side effect, sometimes harming a patient more than it heals. It should definitely be dialed down.
• Instabitaluri is useless due to the fact that, like Convermol, overcomplicates treatment of a patient and makes it more difficult to treat due to the complexity of healing toxin damage and all of the medication demands that it requires.
• Multiver deals far too much organ damage for little benefit.
• Fiziver is in a good spot right now but is a little difficult to acquire.
• Syrinver is a good method of healing toxin damage as long as you follow its rules of diluted IV application. Direct applications are very unadvisable due to its very low OD level and severe overdose drawbacks.
• Tirimol is in a good spot right now but is a little difficult to acquire.
• Convermol is by far the weakest chem in the game right now and should either be redesigned or outright removed for reasons detailed above.

This post doesn't include Medbay issues such as being the only MD aboard the station, having an incompetent chemistry team/no CMO to help make chems, crew members breaking into Medbay Storage and ODing themselves with medication, cloning being occupied/destroyed and having to surgery/defib people to get them on their feet, etc. This is only a look at the cobby chems rework and nothing else.

[MisterPerson]

mod edit: removed

The feedback is still appreciated.

[John_Gobbel]

There is a need for a tier of chems WITHOUT side effects with bad heal rates, but still eventually get the job done. All we have now are shitty chems with absurd (and very different) side effects. Then, in our "safe category" we have a ton of pointless, overcomplicated chemicals that all do the exact same fucking thing. What the chem system needs is simplicity, not 80 new chems with garbage names that do the exact same things with varying levels of outrageous side effects.

[PKPenguin321]

Requesting admin-only chems that bypass any chem resistances and heal each of the base damage types at similar rates to old trek chems
Ran an event where healing was impossible because of all the bells and whistles on the new healing chems and it kind of ruined the whole thing

[actioninja]

Skeletons not processing reagents and being unable to heal predates cobby's changes by a couple months.

[oranges]

skeletons heal by drinking milk

[Shadowflame909]

this is actually untrue

they heal like normies heal by eating food

They don't gain any benefit from milk specifically

In exchange for being space proof. They get ass healing or something. I don't know why xdtm made that nerf pr

[PKPenguin321]

no its true, milk has code to heal them. its just taht they dont process reagents so it doesnt work

[Shadowflame909]

then why did xdtm remove the reagent processing

wack

[Cobby]

Skeletons not healing is a bug and not related to anything I've touched regarding "Cobbychem"

[Recurracy]

What about the spray bottles? The med vendors came stocked with styptic powder and saliclyc acid or whatever it was called, I used those for triage/EMT'ing and had a chemist refill them every once in a while, that was really fun. Are those spray bottles still there?

Also I ask you to please make the names a lot easier to remember

[Shadowflame909]

call it brute juice and burn juice and charcoal

[Cobby]

What about the spray bottles? The med vendors came stocked with styptic powder and saliclyc acid or whatever it was called, I used those for triage/EMT'ing and had a chemist refill them every once in a while, that was really fun. Are those spray bottles still there?

Also I ask you to please make the names a lot easier to remember

Use the suffixes.

ibital is brute
uri is burns
iver tox
mol oxy

all of my chems have roots that relate to their function (albeit some more hidden than others). IE syriniver requires injection, tirimol makes you tired, aiuri is EYEuri, etc.

[TheMythicGhost]

I gave a full list of why this chemical system had been a poor implementation and wasn't properly designed pre-implementation.
As stated last night in the server, for any rework to have a proper foundation to it, it has to be planned way in advance. Both with coder and community feedback to proposed changes.
This is the phase you plan things out in a design document and spitball ideas. It is crucial that this is done before any coding is actually done on things like reworks.

With the parts of this rework being segmented weeks at a time, it makes me think this wasn't done, as it seems more likely these are slapjob bandaid fixes.

Proper alternatives to this implementation are:
A) Threshold based healing. (As proposed by BeeSting) where certain chems are effective at certain damage levels, and less effective at others.
B) Chemical mixture conflicts, an easy system to prevent being a one man passive healing tank, but allow some degree of passive healing. The downside to the passive healer is that at any point a person could hit them with another chemical to ruin the healing and the mixture in their system. This is where you would put side effects, but none should be incredibly lethal because that would make it too viable as a death mix chem (I'm looking at you Sanguibital.)

I've covered so many other points regarding this in the server that it's very tiring to see it fall on deaf ears multiple times because 'it's too late to go back' or 'it's not fair to Cobby'.

[CPTANT]

There is a need for a tier of chems WITHOUT side effects with bad heal rates, but still eventually get the job done. All we have now are shitty chems with absurd (and very different) side effects. Then, in our "safe category" we have a ton of pointless, overcomplicated chemicals that all do the exact same fucking thing. What the chem system needs is simplicity, not 80 new chems with garbage names that do the exact same things with varying levels of outrageous side effects.

Give this man a medal.

What we needed was just the removal of styptic/sulphur and toning down bicardine and kelotone.

[oranges]

it has to be planned way in advance.

Bold to assume this didn't happen

Both with coder and community feedback to proposed changes.

Pr was merged without the test merge phase by accident

With the parts of this rework being segmented weeks at a time, it makes me think this wasn't done, as it seems more likely these are slapjob bandaid fixes.

Again, having to react to an accidental full merge without time to develop the concepts, on top of that, most of the feedback was unhelpful at identifying issues due to tg kneejerk reaction.

Proper alternatives to this implementation are:

Just because it's your personal favourite alternative does not make it the proper one

I've covered so many other points regarding this in the server that it's very tiring to see it fall on deaf ears multiple times because 'it's too late to go back' or 'it's not fair to Cobby'.

Perhaps you should stop repeating yourself needlessly then.

[TheMythicGhost]

it has to be planned way in advance.

Bold to assume this didn't happen

Both with coder and community feedback to proposed changes.

Pr was merged without the test merge phase by accident

With the parts of this rework being segmented weeks at a time, it makes me think this wasn't done, as it seems more likely these are slapjob bandaid fixes.

Again, having to react to an accidental full merge without time to develop the concepts, on top of that, most of the feedback was unhelpful at identifying issues due to tg kneejerk reaction.

Proper alternatives to this implementation are:

Just because it's your personal favourite alternative does not make it the proper one

I've covered so many other points regarding this in the server that it's very tiring to see it fall on deaf ears multiple times because 'it's too late to go back' or 'it's not fair to Cobby'.

Perhaps you should stop repeating yourself needlessly then.

I'd only stop repeating myself if you even slightly took into consideration community or coder feedback on the changes instead of being completely stonewalled on it. This is why we need Kor instead of you. Critique isn't the devil, and sometimes systems are great in your head, but shit in implementation.

Edit: Additionally, people being critical about the changes aren't always kneejerk reactions. Sure, in the first week of a major overhaul like this you can expect that, but you can't just label any criticism as that if it just is contrary to your viewpoint. From the last few weeks on Bagil alone I've seen feedback on why the system is bad, a few examples including: "Nearly all base chem mixtures now result in instant death to the target and are used as no effort deathmixes", "Basic healing causing organ damage, and bodies going left alone or just cloned from that point", "Side effects are on the least effective healers even without an OD instead of vice versa".

[Cobby]

"Nearly all base chem mixtures now result in instant death to the target and are used as no effort deathmixes"

Let me know which ones specifically from a current-commit POV (IE please don't talk to me about pre-nerf aiuri or sanguibital)

"Basic healing causing organ damage, and bodies going left alone or just cloned from that point"

I want chemistry not viewed as "basic healing", TW/Category 1's should be the baseline. Chemistry should be luxury or emergency situations in which you're finding yourself more apt to trading off longer term damage to save the individual.

Kill and Clone if it's common (I haven't seen people use it when I play) is simply refusal to use/learn the mechanics.

"Side effects are on the least effective healers even without an OD instead of vice versa"

This will hopefully be changed in the current PR that has been made prior to you making this post.

[oranges]

I'd only stop repeating myself if you even slightly took into consideration community or coder feedback on the changes instead of being completely stonewalled on it. This is why we need Kor instead of you. Critique isn't the devil, and sometimes systems are great in your head, but shit in implementation.

The system is being modified based on feedback, has been since the beginning, is still happening

Edit: Additionally, people being critical about the changes aren't always kneejerk reactions. Sure, in the first week of a major overhaul like this you can expect that, but you can't just label any criticism as that if it just is contrary to your viewpoint.

Not what I said

From the last few weeks on Bagil alone I've seen feedback on why the system is bad, a few examples including:
"Nearly all base chem mixtures now result in instant death to the target and are used as no effort deathmixes",

Was rebalanced

"Basic healing causing organ damage, and bodies going left alone or just cloned from that point"

We're working on improving ways to improve organ damage, but printing organs is easy

"Side effects are on the least effective healers even without an OD instead of vice versa".

All chem healing is going to have side effects in tradeoff of it's passiviity, active methods of healing like surgery etc are the only ones that won't have some kind of drawback/downside.

The niche of medbay before this change was filled entirely by chems, we are trying to make room on the shelf for more things, especially active healing involving the doctor doing active work, and it is going to take some time to get right.

[TheMythicGhost]

I'd only stop repeating myself if you even slightly took into consideration community or coder feedback on the changes instead of being completely stonewalled on it. This is why we need Kor instead of you. Critique isn't the devil, and sometimes systems are great in your head, but shit in implementation.

The system is being modified based on feedback, has been since the beginning, is still happening

Edit: Additionally, people being critical about the changes aren't always kneejerk reactions. Sure, in the first week of a major overhaul like this you can expect that, but you can't just label any criticism as that if it just is contrary to your viewpoint.

Not what I said

From the last few weeks on Bagil alone I've seen feedback on why the system is bad, a few examples including:
"Nearly all base chem mixtures now result in instant death to the target and are used as no effort deathmixes",

Was rebalanced

"Basic healing causing organ damage, and bodies going left alone or just cloned from that point"

We're working on improving ways to improve organ damage, but printing organs is easy

"Side effects are on the least effective healers even without an OD instead of vice versa".

All chem healing is going to have side effects in tradeoff of it's passiviity, active methods of healing like surgery etc are the only ones that won't have some kind of drawback/downside.

The niche of medbay before this change was filled entirely by chems, we are trying to make room on the shelf for more things, especially active healing involving the doctor doing active work, and it is going to take some time to get right.

You can polish a turd all you like, but it's going to remain a turd.
This same exact scenario has happened recently with: Clock Cult, Blood Cult, Assimilation, Hygiene, etc.

All were met with considerable criticism due to bad implementation, and it was for the most part ignored by the people that coded said things (as they attempted to salvage ideas that didn't work over the course of months). The minds behind these systems/modes had either dropped them, or left the community.

The only real difference with this is that you, as the design lead, are fairly blind to the fact the community is not just disliking it because of it being a new system that breaks the old meta, but because of the core of the system being functionally retarded. You're forcing this system because your way has to be right. You're not taking into account any alternative ideas, or any suggested changes (unless it conforms to this specific system). This is known as creatively stifling a project. If in the long run a community does not receive a system well, try once again to design it in an entirely different way.

Edit: I'm not even sure why I'm worrying as much about this as I am, because if history is as good a teacher as people say, the same exact situation will repeat once again as with those previous scenarios.

[oranges]

You can polish a turd all you like, but it's going to remain a turd.
This same exact scenario has happened recently with: Clock Cult, Blood Cult, Assimilation, Hygiene, etc.

opinion

All were met with considerable criticism due to bad implementation, and it was for the most part ignored by the people that coded said things (as they attempted to salvage ideas that didn't work over the course of months). The minds behind these systems/modes had either dropped them, or left the community.

because they got bullied out with a lack of support from the headcoders and a real toxicity from the community for the mere concept of having to change how they play

The only real difference with this is that you, as the design lead, are fairly blind to the fact the community is not just disliking it because of it being a new system that breaks the old meta, but because of the core of the system being functionally retarded.

Again another opinion, the new systems core works totally fine, surgery healing is zero downside, easy to do and much more accessible now, chems are nerfed yes, because they're not the primary thing you should be using, and as a tradeoff for their passivity.

You're not taking into account any alternative ideas, or any suggested changes (unless it conforms to this specific system). This is known as creatively stifling a project. If in the long run a community does not receive a system well, try once again to design it in an entirely different way.

Im open to conversations about the existing system, but I have no reason to abandon the attempt to make space in the medbay for things other than chems. The only person trying to creatively stifle shit is you, trying to shut down a change you dont' like

Edit: I'm not even sure why I'm worrying as much about this as I am, because if history is as good a teacher as people say, the same exact situation will repeat once again as with those previous scenarios.

Everyone keeps saying this but it just isn't how I operate.

[TheMythicGhost]

You can polish a turd all you like, but it's going to remain a turd.
This same exact scenario has happened recently with: Clock Cult, Blood Cult, Assimilation, Hygiene, etc.

opinion

All were met with considerable criticism due to bad implementation, and it was for the most part ignored by the people that coded said things (as they attempted to salvage ideas that didn't work over the course of months). The minds behind these systems/modes had either dropped them, or left the community.

because they got bullied out with a lack of support from the headcoders and a real toxicity from the community for the mere concept of having to change how they play

The only real difference with this is that you, as the design lead, are fairly blind to the fact the community is not just disliking it because of it being a new system that breaks the old meta, but because of the core of the system being functionally retarded.

Again another opinion, the new systems core works totally fine, surgery healing is zero downside, easy to do and much more accessible now, chems are nerfed yes, because they're not the primary thing you should be using, and as a tradeoff for their passivity.

You're not taking into account any alternative ideas, or any suggested changes (unless it conforms to this specific system). This is known as creatively stifling a project. If in the long run a community does not receive a system well, try once again to design it in an entirely different way.

Im open to conversations about the existing system, but I have no reason to abandon the attempt to make space in the medbay for things other than chems. The only person trying to creatively stifle shit is you, trying to shut down a change you dont' like

Edit: I'm not even sure why I'm worrying as much about this as I am, because if history is as good a teacher as people say, the same exact situation will repeat once again as with those previous scenarios.

Everyone keeps saying this but it just isn't how I operate.

Speaking of "Headcoders" here. What are their opinions on this, or are you just going with 'It's my way or the highway'?

[oranges]

Speaking of "Headcoders" here. What are their opinions on this, or are you just going with 'It's my way or the highway'?

there are two headcoders, myself and cyberboss, and I haven't heard from cyberboss for a while, other than he's working on fixing icondiff and mapdiff.

You already know my opinion, and I won't speak for cyberboss without hearing from him.

[TheMythicGhost]

Speaking of "Headcoders" here. What are their opinions on this, or are you just going with 'It's my way or the highway'?

there are two headcoders, myself and cyberboss, and I haven't heard from cyberboss for a while, other than he's working on fixing icondiff and mapdiff.

You already know my opinion, and I won't speak for cyberboss without hearing from him.

There's a worrying amount of "I think" and not a "We think" as in a collaborative effort regarding the direction of the codebase. Maybe try involving Cyberboss in this too. Hell, maybe try involving your contributor population in this. Maybe involve the maintainers in this. Do you see the problem here?

[oranges]

no, because they are involved.

[Cobby]

i'm still curious about

Nearly all base chem mixtures now result in instant death to the target and are used as no effort deathmixes

[CPTANT]

There is still a serious lack of side effect free ways to cure minor damage.

I seriously loathe getting minor damage now because I either have to find someone doing surgery, crawl in a cryo tube, waste several bruisepacks/ointments, give myself organ damage or use difficult to make medications. All to get rid of some shitty 10 damage.

Food heals too slow to be viable, medibots are fine if they don't wander off somewhere.

[actioninja]

There's a worrying amount of "I think" and not a "We think" as in a collaborative effort regarding the direction of the codebase. Maybe try involving Cyberboss in this too. Hell, maybe try involving your contributor population in this. Maybe involve the maintainers in this. Do you see the problem here?

I can assure you that while there is not unanimous approval and support things are discussed between maintainers and headcoders a lot.

[Calomel]

Honestly as a Chmistry player I would completely ignore all the new stuff. Too dangeorus, and completely irrelevant.
I can still use Salbutamol, Oxandrolone/Rhigo, Pentetic and Trop/Salycillic to heal
the common damage types, and the only thing I need is a beaker of Phenol and a bit more time than usual on the furnace
to make most of those. Heck, if we are two chemists, one can concentrate on Pentetic and the other on the other three.
This only means that the easy brain-dead synthflesh can't be used to ignore half the processes of Chemistry.

Virology can get upgraded mind restoration at round start by using the virus plasma to make all non-deep-rooted traumas irrelevant,
or sense restoration to ignore all those deaf/blind problems, which is good because it makes Virology more useful.
I do not think that these changes actually "change" anything, It just means that Chemistry doesn't get 20 brain-dead insta-heals
inmediately; instead it'll take 3-4 minutes. Heck, charcoal was also a time waster to make, so the difference is even less for toxin damage.

Also, i am sad Thializid is gone, i liked having assistants trying to find the abandoned clinic to get me toxin for it; it
was a rare case of Chemistry needing an assistant, which I thought was nice.

[Taraiph]

I wonder when the last of the useful medicines are going to be removed.

[Dr_bee]

I wonder when the last of the useful medicines are going to be removed.

The current non-cobby medicines probably need tiny nerfs TBH.

Trop could have its passive healing removed and have its only method of healing being the peptides. This would put it more in line with a virology healing virus in that it requires the person needing healing do something to trigger the healing, and as a side bonus make active chefs handy to have.

Rhigo healing should be reduced and limited to the spray form. Right now you can use pills, which kind of defeats the purpose of it the cool side bonus.

Salbu is fine, and so is pentic, as oxy healing is rare and pentic is both hard to produce and has the inherent downside of purging all chems but itself. Toxin damage should really be handled by chemicals anyway, considering toxin damage is usually CAUSED by chemicals.

[Calomel]

I wonder when the last of the useful medicines are going to be removed.

The current non-cobby medicines probably need tiny nerfs TBH.

Trop could have its passive healing removed and have its only method of healing being the peptides. This would put it more in line with a virology healing virus in that it requires the person needing healing do something to trigger the healing, and as a side bonus make active chefs handy to have.

Rhigo healing should be reduced and limited to the spray form. Right now you can use pills, which kind of defeats the purpose of it the cool side bonus.

I don't think eliminating everything is a good idea. On any game, there should be multiple ways to deal with a problem as imperative and important as health, from multiple departments
(Specially on low-pop, there won't always be a doctor, so an alternative has to exist)
I understand you want to make medical doctors relevant, but to do so by removing all Chem alternatives, you may instead make everyone go eat milk/orange/limes for healing instead.
And if that fails, people will just go to Cargo and order medipacks all day, or use Miner's machines for it. And seeing cargo become the new medbay would just be silly.

[Dr_bee]

I don't think eliminating everything is a good idea. On any game, there should be multiple ways to deal with a problem as imperative and important as health, from multiple departments
(Specially on low-pop, there won't always be a doctor, so an alternative has to exist)
I understand you want to make medical doctors relevant, but to do so by removing all Chem alternatives, you may instead make everyone go eat milk/orange/limes for healing instead.
And if that fails, people will just go to Cargo and order medipacks all day, or use Miner's machines for it. And seeing cargo become the new medbay would just be silly.

Dont get me wrong, there should be chemical ways of healing damage, but they should be hard to get or require you actually do something to activate them like healing viruses do, so you dont end up with people stacking healing chems again.

[oranges]

I wonder when the last of the useful medicines are going to be removed.

The current non-cobby medicines probably need tiny nerfs TBH.

Trop could have its passive healing removed and have its only method of healing being the peptides. This would put it more in line with a virology healing virus in that it requires the person needing healing do something to trigger the healing, and as a side bonus make active chefs handy to have.

Rhigo healing should be reduced and limited to the spray form. Right now you can use pills, which kind of defeats the purpose of it the cool side bonus.

I don't think eliminating everything is a good idea. On any game, there should be multiple ways to deal with a problem as imperative and important as health, from multiple departments
(Specially on low-pop, there won't always be a doctor, so an alternative has to exist)
I understand you want to make medical doctors relevant, but to do so by removing all Chem alternatives, you may instead make everyone go eat milk/orange/limes for healing instead.
And if that fails, people will just go to Cargo and order medipacks all day, or use Miner's machines for it. And seeing cargo become the new medbay would just be silly.

The thing is, while there should be multiple ways to do things they have to be meaningful tradeoffs, there has to be some element of a decision tree behind the actions a player takes.

So that does mean that things you are describing we will impose consequences of some description on.

[CPTANT]

I wonder when the last of the useful medicines are going to be removed.

The current non-cobby medicines probably need tiny nerfs TBH.

Trop could have its passive healing removed and have its only method of healing being the peptides. This would put it more in line with a virology healing virus in that it requires the person needing healing do something to trigger the healing, and as a side bonus make active chefs handy to have.

Rhigo healing should be reduced and limited to the spray form. Right now you can use pills, which kind of defeats the purpose of it the cool side bonus.

I don't think eliminating everything is a good idea. On any game, there should be multiple ways to deal with a problem as imperative and important as health, from multiple departments
(Specially on low-pop, there won't always be a doctor, so an alternative has to exist)
I understand you want to make medical doctors relevant, but to do so by removing all Chem alternatives, you may instead make everyone go eat milk/orange/limes for healing instead.
And if that fails, people will just go to Cargo and order medipacks all day, or use Miner's machines for it. And seeing cargo become the new medbay would just be silly.

The thing is, while there should be multiple ways to do things they have to be meaningful tradeoffs, there has to be some element of a decision tree behind the actions a player takes.

So that does mean that things you are describing we will impose consequences of some description on.

Seriously lacking in the current implementation because the chemicals with side effects are inferior even without those side effects.

[oranges]

We'll get there, don't worry, also can you snip large quote chains okay.

[CPTANT]

We'll get there, don't worry, also can you snip large quote chains okay.

One of the problems is that it is supposed to be a short term vs long term tradeoff but organ damage is a horrible mechanic for this against it is also long term and just another health bar.

There should be actually temporary but debilitating side effects.

[Sandshark808]

Also regarding organs, organs are specifically supposed to be healed via surgery

I don't like the trend that everyone is doing of making every single issue in the game solved by chemistry/reagents just because it happens to be one of the most fleshed out systems in the game.

im perfectly happy for surgery's to be added that heal organs, or consume reagents on touch to the organ to heal it, before you put it back in.

But I dont' want straight organ healing via chems because the surgery system needs fleshing out too

For this to be a thing, organs would actually have to do something meaningful outside of the alcohol poisoning meme.

I remember one round I was in where people were getting their eardrums blown out by flashbangs, and they came rushing into the surgery only for their newly-implanted monkey ears to not actually give them their hearing back until the default deafened state ended. Organ damage and the benefits of replacement seem to be totally inconsistent across organs, which is just another symptom of the medical systems being totally divorced from the life function and body systems in their intents.

No medbay rework, not cobbychem or cloning removal or whatever, is going to succeed until a coherent roadmap is laid out for what features you actually want people to use and how they will interact with the body and its parts. It would be worth it to make this public, so other coders can contribute to the project.

[Shadowflame909]

is it time for the orange (organe) system to be a codebase goal like planetstation and de-centralized RND

this means that it'll never be fully completed

[Sandshark808]

is it time for the orange (organe) system to be a codebase goal like planetstation and de-centralized RND

this means that it'll never be fully completed

Considering the slapdash implementation of med and chem reworks so far, we're probably already there. Why not let the end-goal be public?

[oranges]

everything in this game is slapdash, because we don't have paid devs nothing is ever going to be perfectly implemented straight away, if you want to fix a specific issue, then get stuck in.