Cobbychem: A Separate Thread

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Re: Cobbychem: A Separate Thread

Post by confused rock » #510077

Bottom post of the previous page:

what's wrong with keeping the new chems called bicardine and kelo etc
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Re: Cobbychem: A Separate Thread

Post by Arathian » #510090

confused rock wrote:what's wrong with keeping the new chems called bicardine and kelo etc
Nothing. There is no reason why multiliver shouldn't be called charcoal.
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Re: Cobbychem: A Separate Thread

Post by oranges » #510107

When you change something mechanically you have to rename it, otherwise people will die due to out of date wikis
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Re: Cobbychem: A Separate Thread

Post by Stillplant » #510117

New chems have a naming system based on suffixed. -uri is burn damage, -ital is brute, -iver is toxin, and -mol is oxyloss.
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Re: The new healing chemicals are actively useless and a detriment to playing any medical role

Post by Cobby » #510207

how much sanguibital are you using and are you pairing it with other brute chems...?

Libital should be your first choice, sanguibital should be your more nuclear option on top of other healing outputs (not that sanguibital is bad, but it has a nasty downside).

there is no such thing as a bad healing chem with no downside in a system where you can tack on a variety of healing methods and they act symbiotically.

If you don't use them then you're not reaching your full potential as a doctor.

The roots are also roughly based on the function on the chem.

IE

converimol: conver = converts oxy 2 tox, imol = oxygen healer
aiuri: ai = say it out loud and it sounds just like eye (which is the damage it does!), uri = burn healer

Do note these chems were accidentally merged prior to me being able to edit them post live test run but I'll definitely look at the feedback from my own experiences and what people take issue with (not names) and see if I can't find a good ground for the meds. I'd like to keep their base functionality (IE sanguibital heals based off bloodrate) and fine-tune the numbers if possible.
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Re: Cobbychem: A Separate Thread

Post by Reeeee » #510224

Having now been on the receiving end of these chems and applied them without taking the time to pay attention; the usual players approach; take stuff from appropriately colored medkit, use, have heals. Which is what most of the players will be using them as i imagine.

It's not bad.
It's really not. It's just far less effective than old ones and that's fine, good even. You cant just spam brute patches now and keep murderboning solo. Medical is now something you need to be aware of and health is not just a bar that's full or empty.
Maybe you'll even talk to your doctor now when he actually has to apply his medical skills to cure you.
Doctors are arguing about how to do surgery instead of arguing what chem is best to kill people with.
Very gud.
Medical has improved.

Balancing needs to happen that way and this way and organ damage is "eek" and some of the side effects are outright soulscrushingly bad if they remain as is but not that bad of a change.
Medical chems applying CC debuffs for minutes on end is not cool to me unless it's some brutal chem that's only applied to people in crit as last resort. That's a thing.
Slight slowdown, slightly blurry vision, stun increase, shaking, Stamina being capped, and non-harmful disease symptoms seem fine to me to be side effects.
Full blindness; not so cool, that shit WILL get you killed regardless what the intention is balance wise in vacuum of "medical balance" and is really not applicable and nobody wants to stop playing in a safe place to sidestep it. And they will sidestep it by doing just that and then die and ahelp about it.

But the fucking names. Please for the love of god make em simple enough to intuit them upon reading.
THE FUCKING NAMES.
Just make stuff up or ask a five year old to name them so they are simple and intuitive, not this fucked up nonsense nobody wants to remember so you don't stare a pill clueless since it was not in a color coded medkit. You'd have to assume these characters we are playing as have some passing familiarity common medicines as they live in that universe and names should reflect that by being simple and intuitive to them, and as such, us.

Slight peeve, and related; the red jello on screen, can we do away with that now at 5 total damage, start at 50 instead so it's not constantly screaming at us to be 100%?
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Re: The new healing chemicals are actively useless and a detriment to playing any medical role

Post by wesoda25 » #510265

Cobby wrote: there is no such thing as a bad healing chem with no downside in a system where you can tack on a variety of healing methods and they act symbiotically.
Why not? What is wrong with such a chem existing?

Seriously my biggest criticism is how overly complicated you are trying to make everything. This is tg dude, we want a medbay experience fit for the server. Multiple chems that do the exact same thing while fucking you over in various (why not just make them all do liver damage??) ways makes no sense since you are clearly just trying to get people to stop using those chems (which is happening). Not to mention we have various chems dancing around that again do the exact same thing as others, but specify application method, that similarly over saturate what should be a relatively simple chem system.

A barebones system would honestly be so much more enjoyable than what we currently have in place. But I guess I’m not being the best doctor I could be by not wanting 5 iterations of the same chemical with varying penalties, am I?
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Re: Cobbychem: A Separate Thread

Post by carshalash » #510350

The three threads were merged in a pretty tacky way which puts all of the actual issues with the new chems in the middle of the second page, especially when the lizard chems and the new chems are very different issues.
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Re: Cobbychem: A Separate Thread

Post by NecromancerAnne » #510364

So I tried out some experiments with just 15 units of sang and exactly how the bleed works.

It seems some suggestions I was receiving earlier were entirely correct and heparin was in fact keeping sang from it's full effect. It actually was capping the bleed. If you can find some OTHER method of causing a bleed other than heparin, it's far, far more deadly. In fact a small bleed is lethal if you have as much as 10 units of sang in your system.

The worse bit? This means you can put some fiziver and convermol or just tirimol to partially disguise what you've done, and slash them with a sharp weapon like a saw or something with decent brute in of itself (a sharpened butcher's cleaver or the null rod might do it) once or twice and run. A thrown spear is definitely a useful method.

They might have no idea what's happening without a health scanner and by the time they realize it's likely too late. Then they die. Just...collapse. Barely any visible warning whatsoever. It doesn't take very long. That's 10 units.

Not super on board with how high the bleed is and I believe it needs a cap. It definitely heals a lot of brute but you'll die of bloodloss long before that's relevant.
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Re: Cobbychem: A Separate Thread

Post by Mickyan » #510378

Uhm, so I did some testing and I feel like most people missed that you can bandage people to stop the blood loss from sanguibital. It's actually kind of broken, being able to heal from 90 brute to 24 with just 5 units in a matter of seconds.

It definitely needs to have a cap similar or lower than heparin cause it is kind of insane how fast it can kill you even in small doses and you won't see it coming before it's too late
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Re: Cobbychem: A Separate Thread

Post by Cobby » #510544

carshalash wrote:The three threads were merged in a pretty tacky way which puts all of the actual issues with the new chems in the middle of the second page, especially when the lizard chems and the new chems are very different issues.
I just pressed "merge topics", not that it matters since I responded to all 3 of the most recent posts of each thread.
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Re: Cobbychem: A Separate Thread

Post by Dr_bee » #510626

Would making sanguibital just stop blood regen instead of actively causing increased bleeding be an acceptable compromise to your cat2 idea? It fits with the theme of the medicine, but prevents it from making an issue that happens with brute damage anyway significantly worse as well as preventing it from being basically a poison.
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Re: Cobbychem: A Separate Thread

Post by oranges » #511038

I'll just repost something that I said in adminbus because people coudl probably benefit from it anyway

new chems

lets start with the perceived justification, note that this is mine and not cobbys.

Medbay had become, over the years, trivially easy, there were a few basic chems that healed each specific damage type and had no real side effects other than avoiding massive doses. That's it

A doctors day to day role was to put people into a box, push a few of the buttons and leave them for 1-2 minutes until they popped out fully healed, if you're lucky, you had surgery or one for appendicitis.

So, the first step was to remove sleepers, they were literally free healing chem beds and so you didn't even have to inject people manually or prepare doses.

however, that still leaves a very basic and pretty stripped down gameplay loop, so the plan that has arisen was
1) focus more on surgery for healing brute/burn damage, tendwounds/reconsititue flesh are very effective, almost zero risk procedures

2) rebalance chems so that they're going to require more active thought to use, the advantage is you dose someone once and then it works over some time to undo a lot of damage with little to no interaction on your part, so the tradeoff was intended that you'd need to think carefully about the mixture of chems you gave someone and actually have to decide how to best treat each individual patient based on their current damage values.

It was expected that these changes would indeed take time to adjust and I expected that people would be genuinely upset adn confused for a while, before they understood the new meta and were able to adapt how they were doing medical (not withstanding those who found all the random ass extra methods like murdering and cloning and what have you, which I dont' consider feasible long term meta anyway). However, it's my firm belief that we have to pay this cost, of makign medbay harder, because it was already so trivial as to almost be impossible to fix overnight.

I did consider alternatives such as other systems like broken bones and internal damage, parts ofw hich are fleshed out, but ultimately, i chose to work with what we had, which was cobby willing to do a medchem overhaul
So, with that out of the way, lets move on to how the change was handled itself:

Cobby marked it as ready for test merging and actioninja, in what we all agree was an accident and a mistake, merged the PR, before any testing had had a chance to happen and playtesting to smooth out the worst ramps of difficulty.

this meant that the chems scaling was not perfect and a number of them had bugs leading to them being more deadly than I believe cobb intended, this compounded the initial anger and concern about the change as people adapted to the new meta as well as being very difficult to sort out actual bugs/issues, with people who were just incorrectly dosing people due to not understanding the new chem meta.

I was then faced with a choice, do I revert the change, causing people to think I had decided to go against those changes, even though I would still intend to try them out going forward, or do I keep them in and adjust them, dealing with the fact that the anger and outrage had already at this point occurred, and I would not want to pay it twice for no good reason?

Ultimately I chose to keep them in, for good or for worse, and we are already hard at work adjusting the chems, fixing bugs and reducing what the worst impacts of them are intended to be.

As to a revert, I do not agree that we are at the stage that a revert is needed yet. If within 1 -2 months time, people are still unable to effectively use the new chems, or adjust to use surgery, then we may consider the experiment to have failed, and perhaps we have to accept that the tg playerbase cannot, or is not capable of, a more difficult/involved medical system.

removing it at this stage would be
A) unfair to cobby
B) failing to give it enough time for people to adjust to the meta
C) overlooking the fact that we have had multiple issues like this before were everyone calls for a revert, but a week or amonth down the track a lot of people agree that a change was good.

Now, I can't speak for cobby, and I invvite them to provide their own commentary to the debate, but I firmly believe that medbay can be made more of a thinking persons game without long term unhealthy effects on the gameplay

The only long term outcome I expect is that people will be more likely to reconsider if they want to be in a certain fight situation given their current gear/armour etc.

There are a number of learning points I have already taken away and I hope that the other maintainers have done as well
1) play tests are important for changes like this, even if majority feedback is negative, there are still useful data to be collected
2) we need to be better at communicating to people when the meta for a department has changed in such a significant way, however, I can believe that cobby would always intend to do this, the merge was just premature.

Actioninja has almost certainly learned a lesson and is going to be the most likely in future to consider those points, so I don't think there's any more action I need to take there.
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Re: Cobbychem: A Separate Thread

Post by Reeeee » #511049

orangepost
And there goes any reason to complain.
Worst part of it was a human error and people being exited to have new changes in fast to better the game.
I still hate the names tho. Scree.
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Re: Cobbychem: A Separate Thread

Post by NoxVS » #511053

oranges wrote:A doctors day to day role was to put people into a box, push a few of the buttons and leave them for 1-2 minutes until they popped out fully healed, if you're lucky, you had surgery or one for appendicitis.

...

1) focus more on surgery for healing brute/burn damage, tendwounds/reconsititue flesh are very effective, almost zero risk procedures
Surgery is just like sleepers except it has a different sprite and the guy doing it presses more buttons. A player sits on the healing spot, a doctor presses buttons while the patient alt tabs and does literally anything else, and then the doctor clicks until the patient is healed.

Replacing healing with surgery doesn’t work when surgery is tedious and boring for both parties involved. You say medical would be lucky to get appendicitis to deal with when surgery is in reality tedious and boring and causes both players to have to take a break from actually playing the game to either alt tab or silently click repeatedly
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Re: Cobbychem: A Separate Thread

Post by oranges » #511055

if it's the same, im a goddamn tangerine.

one requires active buy in from the doctor as well as decisions about which surgeries to do first, on someone who is injured.
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Re: Cobbychem: A Separate Thread

Post by Reeeee » #511064

oranges wrote:if it's the same, im a goddamn tangerine.
Apples, oranges, same thing.
NoxVS wrote: surgery is in reality tedious and boring and causes both players to have to take a break from actually playing the game to either alt tab or silently click repeatedly
Hey, nobody prevents you from shittalking your doc while he does serjery, and he certaily cannot afk doing surgey, which I assume was one of the points of this, more involved and slower gameplay that rewards and promotes more RP and involved and skilled medical staff and scapel theft to antag instead of murderbone.

If you are even conscious at that point since surgery has been mandated as cure, not pills. That seems like a situation you are not conscious for but staring at black screen anyway.
For what, five minutes at the maximum? That's like 6-7 if (not more) surgeries by the doctor during that time if he's competent and anymore than that required and you aren't a human anymore to be fixed, you are a nuggeted corpse.

It's like complaining cloning takes time from your round since you died and should instead be ahealed to full instantly instead of alt tabbing or metagaming current round knowledge from dchat. We all do that, don't lie. Removing that particular metagame trick from code is a good change.
It's a medical thing being done now, not a healing staff in bottle form.
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Re: Cobbychem: A Separate Thread

Post by deedubya » #511080

NoxVS wrote:Surgery is just like sleepers except it has a different sprite and the guy doing it presses more buttons. A player sits on the healing spot, a doctor presses buttons while the patient alt tabs and does literally anything else, and then the doctor clicks until the patient is healed.
Probably the the most smoothbrained take I've seem in this entire thread. How is surgery at all comparable to popping someone in a sleeper, pressing 1-5 buttons, and kicking them out of medbay in 5 seconds?
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Re: Cobbychem: A Separate Thread

Post by NoxVS » #511082

deedubya wrote:
NoxVS wrote:Surgery is just like sleepers except it has a different sprite and the guy doing it presses more buttons. A player sits on the healing spot, a doctor presses buttons while the patient alt tabs and does literally anything else, and then the doctor clicks until the patient is healed.
Probably the the most smoothbrained take I've seem in this entire thread. How is surgery at all comparable to popping someone in a sleeper, pressing 1-5 buttons, and kicking them out of medbay in 5 seconds?
Put them on a table, click several times, with different tools, kick them out of medbay except it takes longer.
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Re: Cobbychem: A Separate Thread

Post by Reeeee » #511090

NoxVS wrote:Put them on a table, click several times, with different tools, kick them out of medbay except it takes longer.
The point, literally, was to make it involved process to heal people.

It doesn't take longer unless you got multiple damage types.
Tend wounds is fast as shit, literally three steps? Am ignorant. You had to wait for chems to work anyway so, eh, not really?

But hey, let's take it step by step for both;

Detect spaceman, Put spaceman in sleeper, press relevant buttons or kick him out since he was just in medbay, report to sec for "breaking in medbay", forget he existed.
Probably get tided and beaten for "being dick" later since jaded spaceman healed with donk pockets anyway.
>NoX superior gameplay.

Detect wounds, determine type, decide course of action, chems or surgery, decide surgery, memorize the entire process, curse profoundly someone stole the scapel again, lathe one, scream internally with theatre occupied, apply first aid chems, apply steps with five different tools while attending to patient damage levels so he does does not die, observe your work as success, deal with after patient care so that he does not pop a liver or get side effects from meds applied as first aid, prescribe aftercare with pills and directions, wave him goodbye, feel kinda invested that spacemans survival after doing all that work.
Spaceman now invested in doctors survival.
>Coders superior gameplay.
NoxVS wrote:Surgery is just like sleepers
This is assuming you did not actually lose a limb and all your organs are fine.

And I ignored medical jobs since people kept saying "medical is going to change its code" and it literally being three step process made me not care about it, for like six-eight months before this and me dumb assumed in "few weeks" and now it has but how can you miss all of *that* existing?

Medical is a entire thing now.
Not "use medkit"
>The point.
We might even need MORE medical designated jobs now like nurses and actual EMTs now to balance the workload out.

Surgery is NOT the only healing method anyway, jeez.
Chems have changed, not the fact you will be using them, you just have to think now and at minimum memorize basic chemical combos instead of "press button"
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Re: Cobbychem: A Separate Thread

Post by Dr_bee » #511092

I dont want the chems removed. I want them balanced. Many of the side effects of current cobbychems are better used as poisons. The chems doing organ damage alone would be a good enough side effect to make their use something to consider over surgery.

For example, making all the cobbychems do decent liver damage when injected and decent stomach damage when ingested instead of the odd and overtuned side effects they currently have would be a simple enough change to keep medbay from requiring memorizing a wiki to figure out what chems do and make their use something to consider over surgery. Yes I know the names are supposed to help but they dont. They really dont.
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Re: Cobbychem: A Separate Thread

Post by Taraiph » #511098

oranges wrote:As to a revert, I do not agree that we are at the stage that a revert is needed yet. If within 1 -2 months time, people are still unable to effectively use the new chems, or adjust to use surgery, then we may consider the experiment to have failed, and perhaps we have to accept that the tg playerbase cannot, or is not capable of, a more difficult/involved medical system.

removing it at this stage would be
A) unfair to cobby
B) failing to give it enough time for people to adjust to the meta
C) overlooking the fact that we have had multiple issues like this before were everyone calls for a revert, but a week or amonth(sic) down the track a lot of people agree that a change was good.

Now, I can't speak for cobby, and I invvite(sic) them to provide their own commentary to the debate, but I firmly believe that medbay can be made more of a thinking persons game without long term unhealthy effects on the gameplay
The problem with Cobbychem meta is that there is no Cobbychem meta. At least, not as the coderbus envisions it. Oranges straight out said that the idea is to make Medbay more engaging for medical doctors by having them make more choices, harder decisions, and have greater degrees of control over what happens in their department in order to encourage roleplay and thoughtful experiences. In my experience, the opposite has happened. Between Regeneration Nanites, Nocturnal Regeneration Coma Viruses, Mannitol Omnizine Wheat, Cryo, Cloning, Doctor's Blessing, and even random Donk Pocket boxes found in maint, there is no need for an active Medbay. Healing is plentiful, easy, drawback-free, and FAST. It's resulted in robotics making a dozen medibots that can tend to all the minor aches and pains as well as the more major gunshot wounds instead of drawing in more Doctor players to learn new ways to apply the chemicals or perform novel surgeries. It's resulted in multiple rounds where people have straight-out just built a Nanite chamber in the middle of the foyer for Medbay that does the job of three doctors and a motivated chemist.

Oh, and that's not to even talk about the chemicals themselves. Quite simply, the vast majority of them vary from uselessly unreliable to outright detrimental to the point of being literally anti-asimov. Medibots can't (and, in fact, are not allowed to) use several of their chems on humans because they cause harm to humans. I've seen people use sanguibital as an add-in for shotgun darts to induce lethal bleeding before I've seen a doctor try and balance it with iron and maybe some oxandrolone to bring a beat-up sec officer from the brink. Furthermore, it's not worth the effort when there are several other options available that are less time-consuming and similarly effective, to reiterate an earlier point.

The actual problem is that much of medbay at its core is not allowed to be fun as of right now. Cargo can out-gun security with a couple of gun crates or set up their own tesla engine, Engineering can play around with tritium SM/fusion generator setups that invariably make the station utterly uninhabitable, Science can play Slime Rancher or build a miniature fleet of mechs, and even Chemistry can mess around with grenades and narcotics if they don't have to (or want to) do their immediate job. Medical Doctors (and to an extent Geneticists as well) don't have this same freedom. Doing weird, stupid things in Medbay is difficult and reliant on having the station not be infested by giant spiders, or having genetics give you access to the cloner so you can operate on empty clones/human-ified monkeys. With the relative paucity of skilled doctors (or, more accurately, people who don't insta-suicide when given medical doctor) it just becomes that much slower to actually reach a decent consensus on how to best treat patients.

To wrap it up nice and neat, yes, I'm mad that there is change. I actually believe that these changes are positive and conducive to a more enjoyable Medbay, or would be if even a token effort into playtesting, consensus-gathering, and otherwise making sure that literally anyone who plays Medbay is willing to utilize any current or future changes was made. It'll take a couple of months for me to properly internalize and figure out what these new chemicals do, as well as how to best utilize them in any situation that will pop up. But in multiplayer games, the new meta arises quickly and spreads even faster. I can almost assure you that the end result of Cobbychem will not be anywhere near what the coderbus imagined it to be.
Reeeee wrote:Detect wounds, determine type, decide course of action, chems or surgery, decide surgery, memorize the entire process, curse profoundly someone stole the scapel again, lathe one, scream internally with theatre occupied, apply first aid chems, apply steps with five different tools while attending to patient damage levels so he does does not die, observe your work as success, deal with after patient care so that he does not pop a liver or get side effects from meds applied as first aid, prescribe aftercare with pills and directions, wave him goodbye, feel kinda invested that spacemans survival after doing all that work.
Spaceman now invested in doctors survival.
>Coders superior gameplay.
I'll give you a much more realistic version that's based upon actual events:

Detect spaceman, hit with a health analyzer once or twice, groan that you have to do surgery AND use chems, strap to bed, use useless chems, use more useless chems to undo the damage the first useless chems did, hit spaceman with a defib because they die on you (TWICE!), find an even bigger problem that popped up mid-treatment after the second defib, realize you haven't toolboxed enough empty clones to have a replacement organ for the ones you shredded with the chemicals you pumped into them, toolbox until horizontal, clone.

OR

Detect spaceman, hit with a health analyzer, strap to stasis bed, hit with gauze and/or atropine, toss in cryo pod, go back to shitposting over the radio.

Because if you have enough time and medicine to be giving a patient this much care, you're in the middle of a greenshift or the antag got robusted halfway through their first victim.
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Re: Cobbychem: A Separate Thread

Post by Shaps-cloud » #511099

How can you say there's no meta when you haven't given time for a meta to develop

You can't theorycraft a meta, it has to evolve, sometimes out of unexpected ways
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Re: Cobbychem: A Separate Thread

Post by Dr_bee » #511100

Shaps-cloud wrote:How can you say there's no meta when you haven't given time for a meta to develop

You can't theorycraft a meta, it has to evolve, sometimes out of unexpected ways
He did describe the meta and it was completely avoiding cobbychems or using them as poisons. Which is a problem.
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Re: Cobbychem: A Separate Thread

Post by wesoda25 » #511106

oranges wrote: I did consider alternatives such as other systems like broken bones and internal damage, parts ofw hich are fleshed out, but ultimately, i chose to work with what we had, which was cobby willing to do a medchem overhaul
I'm willing to do a different chem "overhaul" but you said no. We're effectively at the crossroads now of "do we want to pursue this path further" (which you chose), "do we want to go back", and "do we want to do this differently" (which I offered). The way I see it, nows the best time for an alternative PR to be made, so that the playerbase can decide which they would rather play under.
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Re: Cobbychem: A Separate Thread

Post by oranges » #511184

I said no because trying to switch from one chem overhaul to another at this stage would be a fucking disaster as people just adjusting to the newer meta would now find themselves further confused with new names and new chems.

There are not three options

there are two

continue, or go back.

and im not going to go back until im satisifed that the current situation is unsalvageable and I already said that would take time.

The third option of "try something even more different" would be worse .

Your offer of an alternative is too late and furthermore, does not even answer to the quoted text which was explictly about adding other types of damage systems that our old chemical system couldn't deal with trivially.
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Re: Cobbychem: A Separate Thread

Post by wesoda25 » #511208

I quoted it for the second part, which is you chose to work with what we had, and me offering something else to work with. I still think its best if we were to rework it again (id hardly constitute it as a rework so much as repurposing, the same chems would still be there), since I think its best to try and redo everything now before people are used to the current system. The only reason why I don't want to wait for it to set in is because I think the current system is flawed, and is flawed at its core, and therefore will not improve with time. But I can understand your reasoning so I guess for now I'll grit my teeth and wait.
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Re: Cobbychem: A Separate Thread

Post by Reeeee » #511212

Taraiph wrote:
Reeeee wrote: >Coders superior gameplay.
Detect spaceman, hit with a health analyzer once or twice, groan that you have to do surgery AND use chems, strap to bed, use useless chems, use more useless chems to undo the damage the first useless chems did, hit spaceman with a defib because they die on you (TWICE!), find an even bigger problem that popped up mid-treatment after the second defib, realize you haven't toolboxed enough empty clones to have a replacement organ for the ones you shredded with the chemicals you pumped into them, toolbox until horizontal, clone.
I idealized it, okay? It's not that far off in your example, same steps, besides you not wanting to medical in your example and groaning.
Also yeah, bugs. \o/
I mean, if you don't wanna do medical stuff and groan at the thought of it after selecting High on Doctor and refuse to chemcombo ...
Don't.
Fixes are coming madlad.

Imagine if triage was a thing that's required from doctors in middle of station destroying BS that medbay is not even supposed to be ready for?
Oh wait, it is now. Triage your patients boi.
You cant save everyone if someone is literally using lightsaber to slice peoples heads off in maint, and that should have an impact.
If everything could be nullified and undone, nothing would be worth it, not even maxcapping bridge with all heads in it.
Death happens more, unrecoverable death. Shit matters more.

I don't see issue making people shitpost less on radio, nor making you think what chems you pump into people to not kill them.
It's already admitted balance needs to change, that including aforementioned organ damage and chem damage, I'm sure.
But I hope they remain dangerous to overdose, not killchem but bad stuff.

I see those as issues of the too fast accidental merge causing no playtesting that's been apologized to death at this point.
Since they are killchems at this moment, no doubt.
Yes I am mad too that they fucked that up.
And yes i'm livid we gotta live with this BS.
Holy shit I fucking hate the names.
But I got an apology and an explanation why it happened, I'm way past done screaming "ORANGE MAN BAD" in OOC for human error for cobbychems that helps no-one since revert will not happen.

Ya'll just gotta work with it for now.
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Re: Cobbychem: A Separate Thread

Post by Dr_bee » #511213

Cobby's idea of medicine having side effects is a good one. It means that some level of medical knowledge is needed. However It would be better if the side effects were simply there to prevent excessive self healing, making surgery required at some point.

Side effects that make other problems are just a hassle to use as a doctor, if you had side effects with a compounding toxicity from use you would need to eventually rely on surgery. If only there were a system already in place to handle toxicity build up in such a way that was non-intrusive until you reach a threshold, like, for example, an organ damage system.

Oh wait, that was recently added, and is the best addition to medical in recent memory.

Cobby's chems are trying to do to many things at once. Balance the self healing aspect of chems first, then worry about making the doctors job more interesting.
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Re: Cobbychem: A Separate Thread

Post by wesoda25 » #511216

Dr_bee wrote:Cobby's idea of medicine having side effects is a good one. It means that some level of medical knowledge is needed. However It would be better if the side effects were simply there to prevent excessive self healing, making surgery required at some point.

Side effects that make other problems are just a hassle to use as a doctor, if you had side effects with a compounding toxicity from use you would need to eventually rely on surgery. If only there were a system already in place to handle toxicity build up in such a way that was non-intrusive until you reach a threshold, like, for example, an organ damage system.
im saying man they should do localized liver damage
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Re: Cobbychem: A Separate Thread

Post by angelstarri » #511222

alternative title of this thread: how actioninja fucked everything up
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I strongly suspected the borgs were one humaned by the Captain because of their increasingly strange behavior throughout the round after the Captain had entered their upload and seemingly changed the laws. I had asked twice if I could blow the borgs to no response (because there was no admin online apparently). They were constantly complimenting the Captain and calling her pretty and essentially threatening people who called the Captain ugly - Pepper Oni.
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Re: Cobbychem: A Separate Thread

Post by angelstarri » #511245

Heals 1 toxin per tick while purging 1u toxin reagents and damaging liver, but if applied using an IV drip it can heal more and safer. Heals more and purges more toxins if injected over time with an IV drip. Should be diluted for safety if used in an IV. If at least 0.6u is injected (syringe or IV-drip), a large portion of this chem is transformed into the much safer Musiver. An IV drip with a 40% solution of syriniver will heal about 5 toxin per cycle and purge 2u toxin reagents, but is unsafe since it makes Musiver overdose very likely. A 20% solution is pretty safe. The more damaged liver the patient has, the lower amount will be turned into Musiver when injected. This means a damaged liver will take more damage than a healthy one. If overdosed causes muscle weakness, high liver damage and disgust.
what the fuck is this bullshit
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I strongly suspected the borgs were one humaned by the Captain because of their increasingly strange behavior throughout the round after the Captain had entered their upload and seemingly changed the laws. I had asked twice if I could blow the borgs to no response (because there was no admin online apparently). They were constantly complimenting the Captain and calling her pretty and essentially threatening people who called the Captain ugly - Pepper Oni.
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Re: Cobbychem: A Separate Thread

Post by Dr_bee » #511277

angelstarri wrote:
Heals 1 toxin per tick while purging 1u toxin reagents and damaging liver, but if applied using an IV drip it can heal more and safer. Heals more and purges more toxins if injected over time with an IV drip. Should be diluted for safety if used in an IV. If at least 0.6u is injected (syringe or IV-drip), a large portion of this chem is transformed into the much safer Musiver. An IV drip with a 40% solution of syriniver will heal about 5 toxin per cycle and purge 2u toxin reagents, but is unsafe since it makes Musiver overdose very likely. A 20% solution is pretty safe. The more damaged liver the patient has, the lower amount will be turned into Musiver when injected. This means a damaged liver will take more damage than a healthy one. If overdosed causes muscle weakness, high liver damage and disgust.
what the fuck is this bullshit
A renamed chem from someone else. It is actually fun to use, as you have to be careful when injecting it or use a chem pack diluted with water, and it has minimal side effects. It is better than the actual cobbychems.
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Re: Cobbychem: A Separate Thread

Post by NecromancerAnne » #511302

So, as I outlined in my previous post about the new chems, I really hammered on about the dangers of Fiziver and how much of a detriment it's existence as a damage amplifier is, but I was still somewhat debating how correct I was when it didn't really see much use in the initial stages of the PR's merge compared to things like Sang. Maybe it was because it was too slow acting, had a very specific amount of time to hit the high damage multiplier and could be purged very easily by ingesting more, which makes it's use in deathmixes harder.

Thanks to the changes here https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/46157, made by ATHATH, I'm right again because the damage amp is pretty goddamn fast and the OD is such that there is no reason not to inject them with enough to OD if you can (unless you're adding another chem to kill them with, like coniine, in a 11u/4u mix in a syringe so they take some oxyloss and damage from the fiziver OD).

You don't need to be careful about the mix, any amount is going to improve damage considerably so you don't need to use all 10 units, it fits even better into deathmixes and even if you don't want to put it into deathmixes you can reasonably justify shooting someone with this before unloading into them with a lethal weapon to exponentially increase the damage you do as soon as it's acting in their system. The amp is VERY fast and lasts a long ass time. This will be how you kill a wizard or some other single high priority target that is usually acting alone with certainty because for the next couple or so minutes this is in your system, so long as it's not as soon as it's injected, they're able to get nearly oneshot by a spear throw and spears in of themselves can twoshot the victim. All the while, if they're overdosing, they're taking constant damage (though it's pretty small).

As for how it works as soon as it enters, the damage amp isn't massive 'I got oneshot by a punch' levels but it will get noticeable fairly quickly and can contribute to a successful fight where it might have been a bit more even. There is no disadvantage to having it in your syringe deathmixes so why not put it in? It's a no-brainer unless what you're using is toxin based damage only.
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Re: Cobbychem: A Separate Thread

Post by Reeeee » #511366

I ran into a interesting concept by miss click.

Palliative care.

People doing "toolbox and clone" were actually doing real life doctor decisions on accident translated to crack speed spacemen game that lasts 30 minutes instead of years and it's supposed to suck to care for the dying you can't do anything to but clone/kill/apply painkillers to get it over with and then be called before the board/admins to explain their actions when/if someone does die.

Cobbychems accidentally real life?
Now actually part of doctors code of conduct?
Also, ye old policy discussion now maybe about how rules apply?
Or is it just absolute no forever for euthanasia and docs HAVE TO keep people alive at any cost even when there is no cure to be seen?
Can you just let people die when damaged beyond fixing?
Separate thread?
Too deep for spacemens?
or literally just "read rules you retard"?
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Re: Cobbychem: A Separate Thread

Post by Tlaltecuhtli » #511372

i havent played it yet but this medchange is just a nerf to synthflesh using in smoke as u ll just poison urself and making it a “just for defib” chem, renamed liggerchems which no one used anyway.
just ignore the new meds with weird names and stick to the good ol tropazole rhigoxane thalizid bruise packs or just use the secret dwarf tecnique
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Re: Cobbychem: A Separate Thread

Post by NecromancerAnne » #511374

People who actually take the kill and clone meme seriously and try to apply it are both missing the point and also probably breaking the rules.

Don't kill and clone. It's a joke. Healing is kind of balls but it isn't hard enough to justify actually killing people because you can't be bothered to use any of the tools available, confusing as they may be.


I would like to point out that while we do have a lot of people using what is the spaceman equivalency to homeopathic remedies to cure damage, those also genuinely suck dick at it and aren't really that much better than the chemistry healing items, they just don't have downsides and take fucking forever to do anything. Tea, milk, bilk, tomato juice and cream are all really weak healing reagents and the only real way they are being able to be employed is inefficiently cramming it into people all at once. They don't do a great job. They aren't really a problem either, and will not save peoples lives.

Omnizine and doctor's delight are both pretty great healing in contrast but both are scarce if you don't have access to a microwave (you should in most maps but some maps lack break rooms, like Box for some godawful reason), require hacking snack vendors for syndicakes, require chemistry's help, or require botany's help. Not a big deal really. And not strong enough to really beat out the higher potency chemicals you can get out of chemistry still. Salicyclic Acid and Oxandrolone are just really goddamn strong, Trophazole is a great chem to make a lot of and requires forethought and proper mixing to get the most from, Rhigoxane is a great emergency tool, and Pentetic Acid and Salbutamol a pain in the dick to get started but not TOO hard to make en masse if you know what you're doing and producing a lot of the components in surplus (I like to make surplus components as an example).

Part of all of this is a lot of people still assuming they can do literally all the medical healing they need themselves using medical supplies roundstart. The problem is not without suffering a lot of pain and annoyance. If chemistry is on it's game, not much has changed, people should actually get fixed up with the better healing items without any hassle, they're all pretty easy to make short of the stupidly overcomplicated Salbutamol, and you can make LOTS of it if you can just get science to come upgrade your machines. There in lies the problem though.

Previously, medical was unnecessary because we had a bunch of people tide in to self-serve out of first aid kits.
What we have now is a problem where the doctors need to get to grips with the new methods of healing, a player base that is still used to previous methods not liking being reliant on another player, medbay still not being feature complete (we desperately need non-chemical based methods to treat toxins and suffocation that aren't medical bots), and chemistry being the main focus but being populated by what I would frankly call a bunch of fucking morons.

There is no hint of irony when I say that chemistry is a hotbed for players looking to not do anything other than make destructive weapons and kill mixes and turn those onto anyone who comes into chemistry expecting to get medical supplies out of them.
It also attracts a lot of new players who see chemistry, see the destructive power it has, and want to learn about it. They also don't have a good grasp of the rules so chemists also tend to get in hot water pretty often administratively. This isn't like toxins, which is a department that has both a lot of people in it's particular job sector (science has many job slots with wide access to the entire department sector short of robotics little den), but that also tends to be entirely isolated on it's own and isn't required to provide additional utilities to the station, unlike chemistry, which is attached to medbay because it's supposed to supply medbay with medical remedies and cures. And RND team or xenobiologist or nanite team doesn't need toxins help but if granted assistance in the form of research points, benefit from Toxin's work. Botany is attached to the kitchen or service in general but isn't required to provide stuff to service, and many service members that need botantical items have access to botany themselves as part of their roundstart access (mostly the chef on most maps except delta and box), but botany can provide supplies to help their department. Botany is actually also at the mercy of chemistry, another core issue that really needs to get resolved. Chemistry dominates way, way too much of the games content which needs to come to an end, even if that means configuring the base mechanics of other departments to get around that (viro, botany, medbay). It is also why the impact of the new chems is being felt so hard. The job that should be producing chemicals to help people is instead attracting players that are notoriously unhelpful or too inexperienced to produce anything of use quickly.


What we really need now is to push aside chemistry for a little (besides remedial work) and start on some more tools and equipment and features so medical doctors can finally shine.
I feel diagnosis and treatment are both the core parts of medical's gameplay, but there is presently a problem where diagnosis is easy, but when it comes time to perform treatment, we have a real scarcity of options mostly because of a void left by the removal of chems that would shore up the very weak framework of old med. You just get stuck thinking 'jeez, what do I actually do here, what even is the best option? All my tools feel stupidly ineffective and this is going to be a slog'. That's probably why 'Kill and Clone' garnered the amount of memetic momentum it did. You feel clueless and unsure how to proceed, this all feels too painful to go through, so jokingly killing them and throwing them into the cloner to treat them with cryo, neurine and mutadone seems far easier. And even that is painful. That's not actually what people do, but it is supposed to highlight that the alternatives just really aren't good enough or feature complete.
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Re: Cobbychem: A Separate Thread

Post by oranges » #511483

I agree
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Re: Cobbychem: A Separate Thread

Post by wesoda25 » #511488

We already got those tools and code for “doctors to finally shine”, new chems with side effects was just the last step to give medical importance, but was not done as well as it could have been. What we need to do is enforce good behavior (surgery on a corpse then defibbing and using new chems/surgery responsibly) through code. Perhaps make surgery heal more on dead people, idk. Just make it preferable and easier to work on someone as opposed to cloning. Thats why trals PR was so good, but as half of the prerequisites for it haven’t been met (an actually good, balanced chem system) we have to wait. Kill and clone isn’t an issue and shouldn’t even be addressed since we already know how to fix it.

Edit: this is pretty incoherent and rambly but I think you get what I mean
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Re: Cobbychem: A Separate Thread

Post by Reeeee » #511506

I have dumbed and taken spacemen to too srs concepts.
Thought patterns corrected.
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Re: Cobbychem: A Separate Thread

Post by angelstarri » #511724

after playing around nu-medical I can safely say that dealing with toxin damage is a huge fucking pain in the ass and it needs to be looked at, all three toxin-healing methods are hilariously slow to heal and provoke more damage than they heal
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I strongly suspected the borgs were one humaned by the Captain because of their increasingly strange behavior throughout the round after the Captain had entered their upload and seemingly changed the laws. I had asked twice if I could blow the borgs to no response (because there was no admin online apparently). They were constantly complimenting the Captain and calling her pretty and essentially threatening people who called the Captain ugly - Pepper Oni.
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Re: Cobbychem: A Separate Thread

Post by Dr_bee » #511733

angelstarri wrote:after playing around nu-medical I can safely say that dealing with toxin damage is a huge fucking pain in the ass and it needs to be looked at, all three toxin-healing methods are hilariously slow to heal and provoke more damage than they heal
How are you using Syriniver? you arent supposed to inject the entire fucking syringe. 5 units is enough to heal a significant amount of toxin damage without doing much in the way of liver damage. Diluting it and using an IV pretty much negates the liver damage aspect of it while making it the best toxin healer in the game.

The other two chems I purposefully avoid, so I cant really comment.
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Re: Cobbychem: A Separate Thread

Post by angelstarri » #511734

Dr_bee wrote:
angelstarri wrote:after playing around nu-medical I can safely say that dealing with toxin damage is a huge fucking pain in the ass and it needs to be looked at, all three toxin-healing methods are hilariously slow to heal and provoke more damage than they heal
How are you using Syriniver? you arent supposed to inject the entire fucking syringe. 5 units is enough to heal a significant amount of toxin damage without doing much in the way of liver damage. Diluting it and using an IV pretty much negates the liver damage aspect of it while making it the best toxin healer in the game.

The other two chems I purposefully avoid, so I cant really comment.
10u syrinver 40u water via IV drip

this heals approximately 30 toxin damage before having to do it again which makes it a huge pain in the ass to heal people with severe toxin damage
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I strongly suspected the borgs were one humaned by the Captain because of their increasingly strange behavior throughout the round after the Captain had entered their upload and seemingly changed the laws. I had asked twice if I could blow the borgs to no response (because there was no admin online apparently). They were constantly complimenting the Captain and calling her pretty and essentially threatening people who called the Captain ugly - Pepper Oni.
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Re: Cobbychem: A Separate Thread

Post by Mickyan » #511798

I think for tend wounds the failure chance should be converted to an increase in time required to perform - balance by RNG sucks and it makes using tend wounds in anything but an optimal setup very tedious
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Re: Cobbychem: A Separate Thread

Post by angelstarri » #511824

Mickyan wrote:I think for tend wounds the failure chance should be converted to an increase in time required to perform - balance by RNG sucks and it makes using tend wounds in anything but an optimal setup very tedious
fuck no, it already takes 5 if not more minutes to tend wounds on someone to prepare them for defibrillation
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I strongly suspected the borgs were one humaned by the Captain because of their increasingly strange behavior throughout the round after the Captain had entered their upload and seemingly changed the laws. I had asked twice if I could blow the borgs to no response (because there was no admin online apparently). They were constantly complimenting the Captain and calling her pretty and essentially threatening people who called the Captain ugly - Pepper Oni.
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Re: Cobbychem: A Separate Thread

Post by Mickyan » #511838

Yeah I'm sure taking even longer because of a bad luck streak is going to solve all your problems
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Re: Cobbychem: A Separate Thread

Post by NecromancerAnne » #511842

Tend wounds is pretty harsh early on, not going to lie. Once the PR to add the tend wound improvements to stasis beds happens it'll probably be better but failure is a pain. I guess just getting sterilizer solves most of those problems though.

I will say, libital and aiuri really do just baffle me now that I've done some more medbay work. They're strictly a bad choice in every way. I would almost always opt to put people into cryo with a decent cryo mix than ever touch those fucking useless first aid kits short of pulling out the salacid/oxa medipens, trophazole pills to make mixes, or the bandages. All the round start medical supplies get eaten by one greedy arsehole and then that's it, it's all garbage.

I even just recently had a round where I ended up as the only station's medical staff and god, it was really something seeing a tide of people smash into medical storage when the bodies piled up and the ailments started to mount and just...not getting better. I kept seeing them use more and more of the patches and thinking 'jeez they're gonna kill themselves'. Nobody let me actually treat them. I had to force a guy into the cryotube because he was going to use every brute patch we had because for some reason he couldn't work out why his wounds weren't disappearing. Made worse by security literally threatening me with violence if I didn't provide fucking weed for a virus cure. (seriously, fucking security, man)

The less staff you have the worse things obviously will get, and it does feel like where as before you could probably handle most medical situations even short staffed, being short staffed now is pretty damn harsh. This is a fairly big consequence of the changes and since we've seemingly had a massive migration away from medical lately because of this, it really makes me think that our playerbase isn't willing to learn or the people who it affects are waiting to see the content completed before hopping back in.

Which brings me to my next point. The difficulty of the current medbay for treating multiple people with less staff and the necessity of medical doctors providing treatment has actually made antagonist's all the stronger, especially if they have regenerative abilities. Like lings or some such, though traitors have some good healing options if necessary and the predominate method for mass murder being alpha strikes from hiding or surprise, which doesn't usually give much time to react, and therefore most antagonists who are successful rare actually encounter wounds that a simple firstaid kit can't fix.

The speed of medical directly correlates to living doctors. The effectiveness of these changes and in fact their actual use in-play is reliant on a staff that can provide it. It sure would be a shame if some bad syndicate man went on a shooting spree and emptied medbay of life.

And there in lies the problem. A hotbed for antagonism and usually a pit stop for most antags after some initial killings. After the badguy of the day has killed most of medbay, the station is just fucked. Medical supplies do shit all and nobody is there to help you. The murder man has all the advantage. From there it's a slow act of attrition on the living crew. The only saving grace is cloning, but of course that's on the chopping block so once that goes then murder becomes even stronger than before.

If your intent was to make antagonists and murderboning less strong, then you've failed miserably. It's stronger than it has ever been. Has it made medbay more involved and medical doctors required to do things? Sure, definitely.
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Re: Cobbychem: A Separate Thread

Post by wesoda25 » #511843

There is a need for a tier of chems WITHOUT side effects with bad heal rates, but still eventually get the job done. All we have now are shitty chems with absurd (and very different) side effects. Then, in our "safe category" we have a ton of pointless, overcomplicated chemicals that all do the exact same fucking thing. What the chem system needs is simplicity, not 80 new chems with garbage names that do the exact same things with varying levels of outrageous side effects.
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Re: Cobbychem: A Separate Thread

Post by Cobby » #511881

What we really need now is to push aside chemistry for a little (besides remedial work) and start on some more tools and equipment and features so medical doctors can finally shine.

Absolutely this
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Re: Cobbychem: A Separate Thread

Post by Mickyan » #511890

Maybe for a start MDs should spawn in with the bare necessities for doing tend wounds, imagine if engineering only had one wrench
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Re: Cobbychem: A Separate Thread

Post by oranges » #511898

You could give them a surgery kit or something yeah.
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