/tg/Station 13

well shit i dont like this

About time

Although I hope certain aspects remain, the idea of it was always fun. Im too lazy to read the code tho so oh well

Thank fuck. Now that one Sybil admin will stop force-spawning a mode that almost nobody knows how to play.

Sad day. That mode never got to realize its true potential, what with the creator sodding off leaving it half finished, and nobody taking over to work out the kinks. Ratvar deserved far more.

Sandshark808 wrote:Thank fuck. Now that one Sybil admin will stop force-spawning a mode that almost nobody knows how to play.

unbased opinion

It can be re-added in later in a better state. I'm sad to see it cut from the code, but Respii is right, we'd be better off rebuilding it from the ground up.

zxaber wrote:It can be re-added in later in a better state.

bet you 3 jelly donuts nobody will do that

best bet is to just make cult have a 50/50 of being rethemed as a clock cult when they spawn, with identical gameplay

I don't know if i'd sign off something like that, seems like a lot of extra sprites for marginal gain.

Now this is an idea that I haven't fleshed out yet, and certainly would not be able to code-

What if clock cult was based off of building multi-tile clockwork machines in hidden parts of the station. The size and complexity of these machines would vary, and could function to produce constructs, convert crewmembers, and build weapons. The main limiting factors for cultists is space (maintenance just isn't large enough for the most powerful clockwork machines) and the potential of being discovered too early if one builds in larger, more open areas.

After being discovered, you kind of have a blob-like scenario, where one area of the station (or multiple, depending on how much the cult has taken root) is a concentrated cultist stronghold. The crew will have to put in their best effort to contain the cult, for if they fail, the cult may just build the largest clock of all: The Ratvarian Chronoplex. It takes up an inordinate amount of space, and will be impossible to build in secret. But once complete, the crew has only precious moments to destroy it before Ratvar himself is summoned.

Farquaar wrote:Now this is an idea that I haven't fleshed out yet, and certainly would not be able to code-

What if clock cult was based off of building multi-tile clockwork machines in hidden parts of the station. The size and complexity of these machines would vary, and could function to produce constructs, convert crewmembers, and build weapons. The main limiting factors for cultists is space (maintenance just isn't large enough for the most powerful clockwork machines) and the potential of being discovered too early if one builds in larger, more open areas.

After being discovered, you kind of have a blob-like scenario, where one area of the station (or multiple, depending on how much the cult has taken root) is a concentrated cultist stronghold. The crew will have to put in their best effort to contain the cult, for if they fail, the cult may just build the largest clock of all: The Ratvarian Chronoplex. It takes up an inordinate amount of space, and will be impossible to build in secret. But once complete, the crew has only precious moments to destroy it before Ratvar himself is summoned.

They go to lavaland and build it all across the moon.

Sandshark808 wrote:

Farquaar wrote:Now this is an idea that I haven't fleshed out yet, and certainly would not be able to code-

What if clock cult was based off of building multi-tile clockwork machines in hidden parts of the station. The size and complexity of these machines would vary, and could function to produce constructs, convert crewmembers, and build weapons. The main limiting factors for cultists is space (maintenance just isn't large enough for the most powerful clockwork machines) and the potential of being discovered too early if one builds in larger, more open areas.

After being discovered, you kind of have a blob-like scenario, where one area of the station (or multiple, depending on how much the cult has taken root) is a concentrated cultist stronghold. The crew will have to put in their best effort to contain the cult, for if they fail, the cult may just build the largest clock of all: The Ratvarian Chronoplex. It takes up an inordinate amount of space, and will be impossible to build in secret. But once complete, the crew has only precious moments to destroy it before Ratvar himself is summoned.

They go to lavaland and build it all across the moon.

Er-
They can't.
Because of interdimensional weak points or magic space EM pulses or somesuch.
Yeah, that'll do it.

PKPenguin321 wrote:best bet is to just make cult have a 50/50 of being rethemed as a clock cult when they spawn, with identical gameplay

this, it'd be a shame to waste all the assets and ideas that clock cult brings to the table, but at this point i think it'd be best just to scale it back down

start off by making it an alternative cult that plays almost identically, and then let people add small flavor/mechanical differences to differentiate the two, so they share a structure and mechanics but have some minor differences

plus that'd make it viable to have doublecult rounds where they're both on mostly even footing with one another

they're not going to be destroyed, you can still put them back in the game at a later date if you actually have a valid use of them.

PKPenguin321 wrote:best bet is to just make cult have a 50/50 of being rethemed as a clock cult when they spawn, with identical gameplay

I'd be down for that, honestly. Have them be a technically separate antag type as well, so you can wind up with both during dynamic.

I was thinking of readding clockies as a cult type before someone deleted it a few months ago as a cult type with both being the same but able to fight eachother on dynamic, maybe this will finally make me work on that idea.

oranges wrote:I don't know if i'd sign off something like that,

or maybe not.

pr got merged
lynching time

I rather liked the old system of sapping power from the station's APCs, and if it was me re-adding clock, I'd like to keep that.

I suppose before anything else happens, it's worth asking if people enjoyed most of what clock cult had to offer and see if we could overhaul it somehow (replace clock town with a shuttle that arrives on the station Z level during the summon? limits on building count for the tower defense? limit conversions based on number of APCs sapped?), or if we should go back to the drawing board for the entire design. We do have some time to spitball ideas while the antag freeze is in place.

I don't personally like the idea of clock just being a re-skinned blood cult. That's boring and unimaginative. Blood cult has their gameplay, clock should be its own unique mode.

On the one hand, I really quite like the idea of building machines and fortifying hidden places on the station.

On the other hand, one maxcap and your entire base is gone.

zxaber wrote:I rather liked the old system of sapping power from the station's APCs, and if it was me re-adding clock, I'd like to keep that.

I suppose before anything else happens, it's worth asking if people enjoyed most of what clock cult had to offer and see if we could overhaul it somehow (replace clock town with a shuttle that arrives on the station Z level during the summon? limits on building count for the tower defense? limit conversions based on number of APCs sapped?), or if we should go back to the drawing board for the entire design. We do have some time to spitball ideas while the antag freeze is in place.

I don't personally like the idea of clock just being a re-skinned blood cult. That's boring and unimaginative. Blood cult has their gameplay, clock should be its own unique mode.

Probably focus on crew content for now, but if you do try and re-implement the mode, do it from the drawing board for the entire design. If you just try to add it back how it was, you're likely going to run into the same issues that caused it to get removed in the first place.

TheMythicGhost wrote:

zxaber wrote:I rather liked the old system of sapping power from the station's APCs, and if it was me re-adding clock, I'd like to keep that.

I suppose before anything else happens, it's worth asking if people enjoyed most of what clock cult had to offer and see if we could overhaul it somehow (replace clock town with a shuttle that arrives on the station Z level during the summon? limits on building count for the tower defense? limit conversions based on number of APCs sapped?), or if we should go back to the drawing board for the entire design. We do have some time to spitball ideas while the antag freeze is in place.

I don't personally like the idea of clock just being a re-skinned blood cult. That's boring and unimaginative. Blood cult has their gameplay, clock should be its own unique mode.

Probably focus on crew content for now, but if you do try and re-implement the mode, do it from the drawing board for the entire design. If you just try to add it back how it was, you're likely going to run into the same issues that caused it to get removed in the first place.

The issues that got it removed had nothing to do with the core design. It had everything to do with its maintainer quitting during the phase where the mode was being tweaked and balanced, and nobody opting to take up his slack. Thus, resulting in a half finished game mode with nobody wanting to touch it.

The largest problem for clock cult was that it was a conversion mode. If it was made into reverse nuke ops it would have been much better.

Dr_bee wrote:The largest problem for clock cult was that it was a conversion mode. If it was made into reverse nuke ops it would have been much better.

Coderbase-wise the largest problem was whoever made it managed to secret away bits of the code in every fucking file in the entire game. It was basically impossible to keep track of unless someone took the time to refactor it, and removing it was only slightly less difficult.

So it sounds like we used the nuclear option on our code to solve what was an issue with *checks notes* ... a single admin?

While it wasn't being specifically maintained - just by virtue of being in the code it was getting automatically updated as we changed the names of procs, item paths, code structure, etc. and was in reasonably good condition from what I could tell.

So even if someone wants to revamp the mode someday, by pulling it from the code, that code quickly becomes obsolete and the work required to get it functional again becomes exponentially harder. I think Clock Cult had plenty of unique mechanics from how the UI worked, how the spells were handled, the existence of "team" resources, etc. that would have been valuable for anyone trying to remake the mode or any mode inspired by those mechanics. Now that we have Dynamic, I could easily see room for a weaker Clock Cult focused on lesser objectives.

I can't help but feel now that we're basically down to 5 modes that scouring one of the best possibilities for a 6th mode is a big step backwards.

FloranOtten wrote:On the one hand, I really quite like the idea of building machines and fortifying hidden places on the station.

On the other hand, one maxcap and your entire base is gone.

I added a significantly reduced maxcap on Reebe a long, long time ago.

Oldman Robustin wrote:snip

It's pretty obvious nobody likes to read.
https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic ... 71#p519396

Unsurprisingly though Robustin,
Your code was in a fuckload of files too, even if to a slightly lesser degree than Clock Cult, your coding practices aren't all that great either if I'm to go by Blood Cult.

just go back to the original cc if you care, the whole reverse blob or whatever is dumb in practice.

TheMythicGhost wrote:

Oldman Robustin wrote:snip

It's pretty obvious nobody likes to read.
https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic ... 71#p519396

Unsurprisingly though Robustin,
Your code was in a fuckload of files too, even if to a slightly lesser degree than Clock Cult, your coding practices aren't all that great either if I'm to go by Blood Cult.

I'm not a real coder so that shouldn't surprise anyone. However, I'm pretty confident about what I said. Stating how many files CC had a presence in doesn't change anything.

i don't even understand half of the arguments here.

CC was removed because it was unmaintained and hasn't been in the game for AT LEAST over half a year.

I would sorta believe the argument of It's harder to readd a mode that's fully removed, but the elephant in the room is that no one wanted to do it when it was nearly finished lol.

Cobby wrote:i don't even understand half of the arguments here.

CC was removed because it was unmaintained and hasn't been in the game for AT LEAST over half a year.

I would sorta believe the argument of It's harder to readd a mode that's fully removed, but the elephant in the room is that no one wanted to do it when it was nearly finished lol.

TBH it was also probably really fucked for someone new to finish and maintain the mode given how fragmented it was. Now maybe someone can remake it in a more human-readable way where when they're done people actually want to continue work on it.

i'm not sure what you mean by "fragmented"

I think he means cc code being spread out over a fuck ton of files (I’m not sure if it actually is tho).

But yeah cc had some unique and interesting aspects but at the end of the day it was a (kinda) unbalanced, boring nightmare with a worse waiting game than war ops. Everyone who actually played during it just misses the idea of it but not the actual gamemode.

wesoda25 wrote:I think he means cc code being spread out over a fuck ton of files (I’m not sure if it actually is tho).

But yeah cc had some unique and interesting aspects but at the end of the day it was a (kinda) unbalanced, boring nightmare with a worse waiting game than war ops. Everyone who actually played during it just misses the idea of it but not the actual gamemode.

You can look at the github post linked at the very start of this thread to see I'm not lying, 4head. Also, the parts the people seemed to care about are still a thing (the graphics and sounds).

what does being spread out over several files have to do with anything?

Cobby wrote:what does being spread out over several files have to do with anything?

If you read the commentary from the person who removed it, it seemed like a lot of features and dependencies were hard to locate.

Sandshark808 wrote:

Cobby wrote:what does being spread out over several files have to do with anything?

If you read the commentary from the person who removed it, it seemed like a lot of features and dependencies were hard to locate.

I have no idea where we stand on things now but I'm pretty sure previous 'best practices' were to avoid packing everything related to a mode in "mode" files/folders. It was done that way so that if you wanted to look up turret behavior, weapon behavior, hardsuit behavior, simple AI behavior, etc. then you could just go to the respective files for those instead of needing to check several mode files. You only put stuff in a mode file if its code was unique and exclusive to a single mode.

Modes with a lot of content would inevitably sprawl across dozens of files because that's what you have to do with a lot of content. Clock cult projectile spell? Well now you need to add a projectile to the magic-projectile file, you need to add an effect to the visual effect file, you need to add the debuff to whatever file handled persistent effects on mobs, and of course the necessary icons to their respective files (button icon, projectile icon, effect icon). My point is that sort of content touches a lot of files but it doesn't have a serious affect on the rest of the code since the affected files are already long lists of relevant procs from various modes.

I'm saying the mode was valuable for more than just its icons and sounds. Whenever I found myself coding something new I found myself turning to Clock Cult with astonishing frequency because as the only mode that had been created since 2013 it had a lot of features you couldn't find anywhere else. When the code is, you know, still in the code, its easy to boot up a server, test if it still works, and them implement your own variation. When code is removed (or never added in the first place) then it rapidly degrades in utility as our code gets refactored.

Sandshark808 wrote:

Cobby wrote:what does being spread out over several files have to do with anything?

If you read the commentary from the person who removed it, it seemed like a lot of features and dependencies were hard to locate.

lol

Oldman Robustin wrote:

Sandshark808 wrote:

Cobby wrote:what does being spread out over several files have to do with anything?

If you read the commentary from the person who removed it, it seemed like a lot of features and dependencies were hard to locate.

I have no idea where we stand on things now but I'm pretty sure previous 'best practices' were to avoid packing everything related to a mode in "mode" files/folders. It was done that way so that if you wanted to look up turret behavior, weapon behavior, hardsuit behavior, simple AI behavior, etc. then you could just go to the respective files for those instead of needing to check several mode files. You only put stuff in a mode file if its code was unique and exclusive to a single mode.

Modes with a lot of content would inevitably sprawl across dozens of files because that's what you have to do with a lot of content. Clock cult projectile spell? Well now you need to add a projectile to the magic-projectile file, you need to add an effect to the visual effect file, you need to add the debuff to whatever file handled persistent effects on mobs, and of course the necessary icons to their respective files (button icon, projectile icon, effect icon). My point is that sort of content touches a lot of files but it doesn't have a serious affect on the rest of the code since the affected files are already long lists of relevant procs from various modes.

I'm saying the mode was valuable for more than just its icons and sounds. Whenever I found myself coding something new I found myself turning to Clock Cult with astonishing frequency because as the only mode that had been created since 2013 it had a lot of features you couldn't find anywhere else. When the code is, you know, still in the code, its easy to boot up a server, test if it still works, and them implement your own variation. When code is removed (or never added in the first place) then it rapidly degrades in utility as our code gets refactored.

The maintainers wanted it gone because they didn't want to have to refactor it every single time they touched any other system, I finished the work Shiz put in and Shiz only quit because Travis was unstable at the time, and they didn't have time to finish it. If your mode has you leave and nobody has stepped up to maintain it, you place a workload on the shoulders of someone else. If there's a fuckload of things that they have to constantly update that once belonged to another person (but are spread insanely far out in the code), I can see why it would be removed.

Also, on the topic of this mode, I missed a fair amount of shit in the defines folder because it doesn't error upon compilation because it's well, a define.

I can't speak for every refactor but a lot of them are simply find & replace jobs once the core code has been changed.

All this code discussion just reinforces my initial perception of what really happened, someone was salty about an admin forcing the mode so they had to throw together whatever post-hoc excuse they needed to remove it from the code. Is there any example out there of Clock Cult code actually screwing up stuff outside of the mode or causing specific difficulties with refactors?

Between two threads and a PR literally all I've seen for code justification is "woah its in many files" which boils down to a lot of defines and modular procs that weren't causing any maintainability issues.

Oldman Robustin wrote:I can't speak for every refactor but a lot of them are simply find & replace jobs once the core code has been changed.

All this code discussion just reinforces my initial perception of what really happened, someone was salty about an admin forcing the mode so they had to throw together whatever post-hoc excuse they needed to remove it from the code. Is there any example out there of Clock Cult code actually screwing up stuff outside of the mode or causing specific difficulties with refactors?

Between two threads and a PR literally all I've seen for code justification is "woah its in many files" which boils down to a lot of defines and modular procs that weren't causing any maintainability issues.

No there isn’t. Other servers still use this game mode. It’s just another example of tg coderbase “exclusivity.” Because people Bass’s about the balance of the game mode and coders don’t like the person the code is associated with.

Did it need to be reworked? Absolutely. Wasn’t the perception that it found it’s way into most of the code essentially debunked in the github? Like it’s only represented in a minor portion of the code?

It’s a fun game mode that needed to do some re-work and rebalancing but coders solution to actually doing work seems to be “remove this.”

i look forward to your cc revival snuffle!

snuffle can't code

Snuffleupagus wrote: Did it need to be reworked? Absolutely. Wasn’t the perception that it found it’s way into most of the code essentially debunked in the github? Like it’s only represented in a minor portion of the code?

It’s a fun game mode that needed to do some re-work and rebalancing but coders solution to actually doing work seems to be “remove this.”

And nobody stepped up to rework it. At some point, we all need to just admit it's not going to get reworked into a passable state.

coders doing work

What ya paying

twenny buck

MisterPerson wrote:

Snuffleupagus wrote: Did it need to be reworked? Absolutely. Wasn’t the perception that it found it’s way into most of the code essentially debunked in the github? Like it’s only represented in a minor portion of the code?

It’s a fun game mode that needed to do some re-work and rebalancing but coders solution to actually doing work seems to be “remove this.”

And nobody stepped up to rework it. At some point, we all need to just admit it's not going to get reworked into a passable state.

I'd like to add a bit to that statement, although it's far from official. From my point of view, other antag types and such needed to be worked on more, And Clock cult, akin to Something like devil, Was put off rotation so It could be worked on better, while still being able to bring in when needed for testing. Not an official statement, Just guessing. However, It was used by staff too often without player consent or understanding IN this unfinished state, in some cases, IN MY OPIONION, Whenever they could find a fucking excuse to do so. Or even when there's already a round going on they did it for the hell of it. Due to the combination of the antag freeze and people working on other things than antag stuff in general otherwise, This also wasn't in a state of being fixed, and was... well... Rather tedious actually. Clock cult rounds have strict timers on them, With the round being put to a certain length guaranteed. Additionally, as of how clock cult works, The issue of cultists in blood cult making autismforts off station which are inaccessable was AMPLIFIED due to the clock cult having an abductor-esque base. Meaning that someone could just go in, grab some poor sod, fuck off, and convert. Hell they could just yeet themself into armoury.
EDIT: No, They can't, as a certain Teepeepee Told me. Thanks for correcting me

In this state, this roundtype stressed out and was LOATHED, or at least disliked, by a noticeable majority of players, and, for a non normal rotation round, was overrused to hell, as previously stated. Thus, Until someone find time and inspiration on how to fix it, clock cult is removed so the current broken state of it doesn't rear its ugly head too much.

Honestly, I'm all for a clock cult rework, And I'll be glad if it comes back in a state which isnt FUCKING FRUSTRATING TO DEAL WITH, But, As nobody is working on that, and I have ZERO experience with coding in byond... well, Almost zero. I know some general coding info, but nothing really specific to BYOND... I'm not going to be doing this either. Because I have no fucking clue how, as of now.

Returning clock cult in it's current state would be a potentially shitty move, in my opinion, and it will likely result in more player stress than enjoyment.

In my opinion, at least.

Reyn wrote:Hell they could just yeet themself into armoury.

bruh why are you always so wrong? they couldn't teleport into the armory, secure tech storage, upload, telecoms nor the AI room (they could into the outer rooms of the satelite)
gimme just ONE good take from you, I feel like I'm reading a shadowflame post whenever I read yours

teepeepee wrote:

Reyn wrote:Hell they could just yeet themself into armoury.

bruh why are you always so wrong? they couldn't teleport into the armory, secure tech storage, upload, telecoms nor the AI room (they could into the outer rooms of the satelite)
gimme just ONE good take from you, I feel like I'm reading a shadowflame post whenever I read yours

Right, they fixed that. Sorry about that mistake.

To be fair to clock cult, It wasn't beyond salvaging, Far from it. However, It's not in a state where it should be used regularly, and as it stood with the use of it by admins, It was used far too much.

Reyn wrote: It wasn't beyond salvaging

I respectfully disagree, and that's all I'll say.

TheMythicGhost wrote:

Reyn wrote: It wasn't beyond salvaging

I respectfully disagree, and that's all I'll say.

"Beyond salvaging" Assumes a complete rework of how it functions is impossible.