/tg/Station 13

I must obey

I still keep ending up dead despite medical care for relatively simple injuries. Now it seems more related to organ damage, before it was because of ????. At least I know why I'm staying dead now.

Medibots relatively work again, which wasn't the case last time I commented.

EDIT: I welded a plasma toilet while sitting on it and it removed three limbs and tossed me into heavy crit. I passed on and was defibbed within two seconds and statis'ed until I was actually revived. I was EVENTUALLY offered more limbs, but declined for humor's sake for and ran around on one leg for the next hour and 20 minutes. I then stopped back in to get an arm and new leg because there were 3 Colossus on the station. It was extended. Good shift.

There needs a researched surgery in the improved wound-tending area with a repeatable surgery that heals every organ similar to tend wounds. I've noticed that most times someone has to be defibbed or cloned, quite a few of their organs are heavily damaged or outright unusable by the time they get to medical. And i dont just mean the heart, but every other organs aswell as the heart.

please let O2 heal organ decay, so this becomes a viable and more active replacement to cloning.

why? The 45-minute torture storytime I went through during the other thread a couple of days ago.

I still feel that if coders want Botany to heavily contribute to medbay, they should formalize the relationship in some way. Botany's already a ghetto medbay, maybe make blood tomatoes not a joke item to provide medbay with a good source of blood, or add a mutation that produces organs.

https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/ ... rot.dm#L50

rev up those syringe guns

Honestly I just don't die enough in a way that isn't outright permanent to run into this problem enough. I had one major issue with organ failure recently and it was from having injected 300 units of plasma into myself while using plasma fixation, and it didn't actually do enough to kill me because my plasma fixation kept me alive long enough for robotics to finesse an upgrade into me. Organ failure seems like something you have to really go out of your way to induce or you already ended up dying in the first place at which point you'll be waiting on getting fixed regardless.

Formaldehyde being more readily available might fix that but that means more readily available formaldehyde which is probably a mistake.

NecromancerAnne wrote: Formaldehyde being more readily available might fix that but that means more readily available formaldehyde which is probably a mistake.

Having a bottle of it in the morgue would not be out of place. considering you only need 1 unit to preserve a body it would be very useful.

The main issue would be bodies have a high chance of decaying before they get to medbay.

We need a paramedic role to go suit sensor hunting

Cobby wrote:https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/ ... rot.dm#L50

rev up those syringe guns

This only stops miasma generation not organ damage, you FOOL!

There is a PR up right now that might make it prevent organ damage though it is subject to change.

NecromancerAnne wrote:There is a PR up right now that might make it prevent organ damage though it is subject to change.

A better method would be having body temperature preserve organs instead of a chem. As well as making dead bodies still react to area temperature if they dont already. This will make cryosaline and oxygen or keeping the corpse cold as a method of preservation, as well as making tossing someone into space a less attractive idea.

Also morgue trays should preserve organs if they dont already. but body bags shouldn't.

NecromancerAnne wrote:Formaldehyde being more readily available might fix that but that means more readily available formaldehyde which is probably a mistake.

Formaldehyde is far too slow to be an effective toxin.

It turns into histamine, which is far more effective. And I've killed people rather readily with formaldehyde before, and this was during the charcoal era. Toxins are stronger than they've ever been simply because the purging chems are far weaker. It's also an ingredient to heparin, so in of itself it can be upgraded.

Can agree, toxin is a huge problem, specially since your only tool for removing it without nasty side effects is sniriver,
and that requires you to use the IV drip, which would require:

- A doctor who actually knows how to use it.
- A person to be willing to be put on a bed to get IV'd and stay still instead of raiding the medbay storage.
- A patient actually asking meds for help and subjecting himself to analysis, instead of self-medicating.

People still have the old mindset of raiding the fridge/storage and ignoring the medical process. i've had my problems with people
actively engaging in violence when you don't let them steal half the medbay. The easy access to old Chemistry is only making it worse.

Calomel wrote: People still have the old mindset of raiding the fridge/storage and ignoring the medical process. i've had my problems with people
actively engaging in violence when you don't let them steal half the medbay. The easy access to old Chemistry is only making it worse.

Remove all medkits besides the toxin and white ones? Doctors would actually have to make meds in the downtime or actually bother to use surgery.

Blood would be more useful than medkits in the future anyway, if surgery revival is to become the main way to do it.

no one wants to wait for a doctor when they arent dead or crit

Tlaltecuhtli wrote:no one wants to wait for a doctor when they arent dead or crit

No need to. There's (normally) stuff on the fridge, and medkits on the entrance, at least in roundstart.
Even when these two things are aviable to anyone getting in medbay, poeple STILL rush storage. I don't mind
self-medication, if that was your take on my post; I must have been confusing, my spologies.

What I eman is, even when the vendor that points to medbay entrance is filled with stuff, even if you tag those
medicines with the damage type they heal or color code them to aid the patients who enter so they can do what
they need to do without medical doctors, people still regularly break into medbay to raid the storage, and react
violently when denied such access. I mean, that's what the north chem vendor was made for;
self-medicating papercuts/minor injuries.

Calomel wrote:

Tlaltecuhtli wrote:no one wants to wait for a doctor when they arent dead or crit

No need to. There's (normally) stuff on the fridge, and medkits on the entrance, at least in roundstart.
Even when these two things are aviable to anyone getting in medbay, poeple STILL rush storage. I don't mind
self-medication, if that was your take on my post; I must have been confusing, my spologies.

What I eman is, even when the vendor that points to medbay entrance is filled with stuff, even if you tag those
medicines with the damage type they heal or color code them to aid the patients who enter so they can do what
they need to do without medical doctors, people still regularly break into medbay to raid the storage, and react
violently when denied such access. I mean, that's what the north chem vendor was made for;
self-medicating papercuts/minor injuries.

People want sutures and burn gel to heal their minor wounds, not potentially deadly unknown cobbychem pills.

at this point it's almost like we need to hand out .357's to the medbay staff

oranges wrote:at this point it's almost like we need to hand out .357's to the medbay staff

Please fucking do.

Also whitekits need a hard nerf.

Sandshark808 wrote: People want sutures and burn gel to heal their minor wounds, not potentially deadly unknown cobbychem pills.

And there are some on the entrance to medical, at least at roundstart. And not all chemicals are cobbychems, heck,
when i play as chemist I don't do cobbychems except sniriver, I usually make saly, oxandro and salbu, which are ancestral
chems that have no side effects.

You can literally eat a trop, or a saly, and be gone if you have brute damage. Oxandro for Burn. No need to raid and
break open medbay, and hurt the doctors within for not wanting people to break their workspace open.

it is true no one checks chem fridge, thats why chemists just empty a bunch of chem bags of pills on the tables in med lobby, its easier for ppl to find and usually no one expect chem fridge to have stuff

Sandshark808 wrote: People want sutures and burn gel to heal their minor wounds, not potentially deadly unknown cobbychem pills.

1. neither will heal most C2 side-effects. I can't think of any that do burn/brute damage except ichi, which is no longer in the game. Maybe some of the ODs but if you OD on a C2 you took way too much anyways.
2. that is what they do post change.

---

I'm tired of seeing "minor damage" being this shifting goalpost for people to underhandedly say it doesn't heal as much as they want it to. If you are going to say X should heal "minor damage", you need to explain what you're considering "minor".

15 damage to a limb is what I typically think as the highest "minor" damage should be. This makes most real weapons un-healable by the sutures and burn gel but things like getting punched, getting thrown into a wall, or touching a light bulb.

I say 30 in total. If you got 30+ damage, you need to go to the doctors office.

But if you just survived an e-sword attack one time/arm-blade and then ran away. You're good for another round of valid hunting.

These antags cant keep getting away with this!

Edit: also getting shot by one laser deals 20 burn. So..30 is fair. Otherwise MD's are gonna be overworked and burnt-out.

Dr_bee wrote:15 damage to a limb is what I typically think as the highest "minor" damage should be. This makes most real weapons un-healable by the sutures and burn gel but things like getting punched, getting thrown into a wall, or touching a light bulb.

Running into a standard 50KW grille is what I think of as minor. Orange on a single limb or green on the whole body. Shadowflame's point about 1 hit from a traitor weapon is pretty much on point though. Just being winged by a shitty sec officer's laser shouldn't mean taking dangerous mystery pills.

I picked 15 because it was under traitor weapon range actually, though 20 sounds good.

It makes sense for a freaking laser sword or 9mm bullet to take more than a suture or ointment pad to fix, and it preserves the value and scariness of traitor weapons.

20hp is a fifth of your health before you hit crit.

I'm expecting things like lightbulbs, a couple of punches, etc. to be considered standard "minor damage", not running into an arbitrarily set grille wattage (or even running into a grille connected to the powergrid at all)....

Cobby wrote:20hp is a fifth of your health before you hit crit.

I'm expecting things like lightbulbs, a couple of punches, etc. to be considered standard "minor damage", not running into an arbitrarily set grille wattage (or even running into a grille connected to the powergrid at all)....

50KW is a grille with default power from the solars (All SMES discharge at 50kw unless someone changes the voltage). It does lightbulb damage to the entire body, and they're a pretty common grief/prank on the station.

Cobby wrote:20hp is a fifth of your health before you hit crit.

I'm expecting things like lightbulbs, a couple of punches, etc. to be considered standard "minor damage", not running into an arbitrarily set grille wattage (or even running into a grille connected to the powergrid at all)....

Here's where I believe you and most of the servers may have a disconnect. The thing about "minor" damage is that pretty much any damage up to about 20-30 brute/burn can be considered "minor" because they don't actually have any effect on your character. No bleeding, no losing control randomly, no literal limb loss, nothing that can actually slow your character down appreciably, if at all. Even then, you can still run around comfortably up until most of your screen is a mess of red. You're expecting a health gradient and a corresponding response that doesn't exist among the playerbase.

Taraiph wrote:

Cobby wrote:20hp is a fifth of your health before you hit crit.

I'm expecting things like lightbulbs, a couple of punches, etc. to be considered standard "minor damage", not running into an arbitrarily set grille wattage (or even running into a grille connected to the powergrid at all)....

Here's where I believe you and most of the servers may have a disconnect. The thing about "minor" damage is that pretty much any damage up to about 20-30 brute/burn can be considered "minor" because they don't actually have any effect on your character. No bleeding, no losing control randomly, no literal limb loss, nothing that can actually slow your character down appreciably, if at all. Even then, you can still run around comfortably up until most of your screen is a mess of red. You're expecting a health gradient and a corresponding response that doesn't exist among the playerbase.

This is amplified by the fact that so many things can damage you for "minor" (non-lethal) amounts in the course of a normal job. Sometimes you get a piece of pipe ejected at you by an atmos tech who unwrenched it live. Sometimes you get electrocuted by a door, vending machine, or grille an assistant made in maint. Sometimes someone grabs and tables you, which now does a fair amount of damage. Sometimes you get shot by mistake by a sec officer or the captain. Sometimes a person misclicks you with a fire extinguisher or toolbox. Sometimes you get slapped by the chef's goat, or have your skin slightly frozen off from being in the fridge (lizard chefs especially will get frostbite even with warm clothes).

When the white kits and donk pockets run out people just walk around with these injuries for the rest of the round, because it's not worth spending time getting surgery for.

Sandshark808 wrote:

Cobby wrote:20hp is a fifth of your health before you hit crit.

I'm expecting things like lightbulbs, a couple of punches, etc. to be considered standard "minor damage", not running into an arbitrarily set grille wattage (or even running into a grille connected to the powergrid at all)....

50KW is a grille with default power from the solars (All SMES discharge at 50kw unless someone changes the voltage). It does lightbulb damage to the entire body, and they're a pretty common grief/prank on the station.

they discharge at 50kw a piece, meaning the total power going through the net is usually more than 50 which is why I was (and still sorta am) confused with this metric.

Unless people are wiring their grilles directly to a SMES output that isn't connected to a line, 50kw is kinda uncommon. Some maps I think directly wire SM to grid too so lol.

Taraiph wrote:

Cobby wrote:20hp is a fifth of your health before you hit crit.

I'm expecting things like lightbulbs, a couple of punches, etc. to be considered standard "minor damage", not running into an arbitrarily set grille wattage (or even running into a grille connected to the powergrid at all)....

Here's where I believe you and most of the servers may have a disconnect. The thing about "minor" damage is that pretty much any damage up to about 20-30 brute/burn can be considered "minor" because they don't actually have any effect on your character. No bleeding, no losing control randomly, no literal limb loss, nothing that can actually slow your character down appreciably, if at all. Even then, you can still run around comfortably up until most of your screen is a mess of red. You're expecting a health gradient and a corresponding response that doesn't exist among the playerbase.

minor shouldn't mean "anything up until you are actually being punished" since any health loss brings you closer to these "true" punishments. This "buffer range" is just as important as the magic numbers before you hit slowdown,stun/crit,limb loss,etc.

This is why I think a portion of the buffer should be considered "minor damage", rather than the entire buffer itself.

Dr_bee wrote:I picked 15 because it was under traitor weapon range actually, though 20 sounds good.

It makes sense for a freaking laser sword or 9mm bullet to take more than a suture or ointment pad to fix, and it preserves the value and scariness of traitor weapons.

Traitor weapons are scary because they're OP. 30 burn damage e-swords. 60 brute revolvers. Syndicate bombs yadda yadda.

Let's just take a mass bombing situation for example. Bridge got bombed, and now everyone is dealing with depressurized damage.

As soon as a few people get to 20, it's now tend wounds armageddon for medbay.


That's the worst scenario Bay-Med situation Dr_Bee. A ling runs into the bar armblading everyone, and now everyone has to go get surgery because the minor medicine no longer works. Whilst the ling is fine because of his healing factor.

Minor Damage truly needs to be tanking an antagonist once and no more. Or there will not be any true balance. IE: Paradise has your sense of balance. Where traitors and lings will break your bones and organs with one hit to the chest, causing you to spend 45 minutes in medbay. BUT the cost is that if a traitor kills literally anyone outside of their objective for any reason. They're gonna get a heavy ban. Including killing sec. (Heads also get death alarms that blare their location.)

Edit: Since code-policy and rule-policy has become more distant and kind of like the code puzzle piece keeps changing shape while the rule piece remains stagnant. I think the only /tg/ way to make something like that work would be to make one e-sword cost like 20 tc. Or have a ling only able to buy 1 power per identity.

Just really lame "balance"

My line for minor damage is walking into/through a room that was breached to space and you didn't notice so you take a bit of pressure and burn damage.

Shadowflame909 wrote: That's the worst scenario Bay-Med situation Dr_Bee. A ling runs into the bar armblading everyone, and now everyone has to go get surgery because the minor medicine no longer works. Whilst the ling is fine because of his healing factor.

Snipped for page size.

You assume I am suggesting all meds only work on light damage, Im not, Im only suggesting that sutures and burn mesh work on 20 or less damage, and the removal of the brute and burn kit from medbay.

Doctors can pre-prepare chems in the pharmacy/apothecary to deal with brute damage as normal, measuring the proper dosage, and if they are caught off guard they can use treat wounds.

If medbay doesnt pre-prepare medicine during quiet moments they deserve to be swamped. Also chemfactory means medbay can easily have access to massive amounts of healing chems, with the limit only being space and the skill of the chemist.

agreed with bee

Since I guess the change happened affiliated with Cobbychem. Posting it here.

Removing health analyzers from public white medikits, and replacing them with a health vendor that doesn't even tell you what the virus cure is...

Was the most cursed virology buff ever. By the time you figure out what the virus is, and go to chemistry to cure it. You're already dead/in the late stages of the virus about to die before you can whip up the level 10 resistance cure.

Why oh Why!

Edit: Add this onto the fact that the only way to use public holodeck medical is to turn off safeties, which an AI might not want to do. Or you just might not have one/it's unresponsive.

The killer virology buff that wasn't necessary.

Capping sutures and mesh at 20 damage is really lame, A better solution would be removing the public white kits and maybe increasing self application time.

Healing minor scrapes is the role of food and drinks.

Libital, oxalandrone and salicylic are already competitive with sutures and mesh and can be mass produced.

you can just buy a medical analyzer from the vendors man...

how do i learn cob

cacogen wrote:how do i learn cob

As one of the few people who have tried to learn how this god-forsaken system of medical chemicals is supposed to work, you don't.

Normally I'd just say "read the wiki", but then you'd realize that the ways that you apply them are kinda arbitrary at best(libital, aiuri) and brain-melting nonsense at worst (sanguibital, helbital, multiver until fairly recently). It takes experimentation, problem solving, and trial and error, supposedly. In actuality, it means that you have to have rounds where you can afford to grab a random catatonic body from cloning, beat them with a toolbox/stab them with a syringe full of toxin, and fill them with chems to fix the injuries you gave them. Then you understand exactly how little you actually want to use them in favor of having your sutures and meshes wasted on people who you should've blasted with morphine earlier so you could get them to take the fucking tend wounds surgery.

If you're ever on Sybil and you see Roland Madden (me) around feel free to ask for a rundown on how the garbage is supposed to work.

cacogen wrote:how do i learn cob

Personally, i'd get a piece of paper (I know, ancient tech here), and write down the recipe for at least these.

- Ammonia, Oil. These are your base chemicals.
- Formaldehyde and Cyanide (For pentetic), and Phenol. These are your second grade base chemicals.
- With those bases, you can make everything you need to make Potassium iodide (Rads) Oxandrolone (burn), Salycylic Acid (Brute), Salbutamol (Oxyloss),
and Pentetic acid (Poison). This will be your basic array of common medicines. Pentetic requires furnace so it'll take longer.

After that, helping other departments with unstable Mutagen (Botany) and Space Cleaner (janitors), and
making more specific stuff (mannitol, Mutadone, calomel...) when you get used to the other stuff. Hope it helps.

yuri does eye damage but you can make oculine so just make some low ammount pills to buffer with tier3s
libtard does liver damage but liver self heal, make some pill to buffer
the other cobby chems that arent in medkits, just ignore them
tropazole is p much old tricord chem factory it next to kitchen for maximum efficiency
chemfactory tier3 chems (oxal, salc) because their recipe is really similar and you can make both in a single compact factory
pentetic is hard to chem factory so like make 2 cycles on chem dispenser and thats enough
antihol/oculine/inacusate are usefull, pro move here is to use the medbay multiver add 2 simple chems and u get 90u of each
for mutadone just take the genetics pill and make 1u instead of 50u

rest isnt important after 10 min u did these things u can go fuck off doing rdx factpry or meth

the other cobby chems that arent in medkits, just ignore them

Agreed, no point in making them except maybe seiver if people are heavily irradiated.


salicylic acid, pent, strange reagent, atropine and maybe neurine or something is all you need. You often have enough burn meds roundstart to last a shift in my experience but if you need more make oxalandrone(or rhigoxane if shit is on fire).


Once the plumbing grinder gets merged i will try out making a suture factory, that might be pretty good if you are a botanist or can convince them to grow trumpets.

yes i'd like to move the C3s out but I'm not sure the best way to do it.

oranges wrote:at this point it's almost like we need to hand out .357's to the medbay staff

Give them all a roundstart rapid syringe gun full of chloral hydrate needles. No japes

Tlaltecuhtli wrote:no one wants to wait for a doctor when they arent dead or crit

Sucks to be them, then. They're not fucking entitled to a white kit. It's just a symptom of the entitled omnidisciplinarian issue plaguing this server. If they try to smash in the windows, knock them out and remove their arms in surgery. Fuck em.

Cobby wrote:yes i'd like to move the C3s out but I'm not sure the best way to do it.

Honestly, i mentioned those C3 things but they too have problems: Oxandro and Saly only work effectively in crit patients,
so they're "stabilization" meds, not really all-purpose; and pentetic has the problem of being a purger, so you can't use it
if the person has toxin AND another damage type without surgery. if anything the C3 meds
really resonate with oranges' idea of surgery-based medicine.

deedubya wrote: Sucks to be them, then. They're not fucking entitled to a white kit. It's just a symptom of the entitled omnidisciplinarian issue plaguing this server. If they try to smash in the windows, knock them out and remove their arms in surgery. Fuck em.

You are assuming the medical personnel have the desire and/or capability to outrobust tiders. If anything trying to defend
medbay only gets you critted or dead. Doesn't help taht sec is pretty much non-existent on low pop.

Calomel wrote:

deedubya wrote:Sucks to be them, then. They're not fucking entitled to a white kit. It's just a symptom of the entitled omnidisciplinarian issue plaguing this server. If they try to smash in the windows, knock them out and remove their arms in surgery. Fuck em.

You are assuming the medical personnel have the desire and/or capability to outrobust tiders. If anything trying to defend
medbay only gets you critted or dead. Doesn't help taht sec is pretty much non-existent on low pop.

Doctors now have roundstart access to oldchem as well as at least one syringe gun. If you don't want to make chloral hydrate to knock tiders on their ass, you deserve to get looted.

There's also generally more doctors than there are medbay tiders at any single point. Departmental camaraderie is very much a thing in tg.

deedubya wrote: Doctors now have roundstart access to oldchem as well as at least one syringe gun. If you don't want to make chloral hydrate to knock tiders on their ass, you deserve to get looted.

There's also generally more doctors than there are medbay tiders at any single point. Departmental camaraderie is very much a thing in tg.

Not on lowpop there ain't. That and 80% of the time I'm FUCKING BUSY. I don't want to have to blast you with enough lexorin to kill bubblegum just because you don't know what the fuck the word "no" means.