Radiation sucks

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Lazengann
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Radiation sucks

Postby Lazengann » Thu Dec 19, 2019 3:35 am #529830

It's not a fun mechanic in its current state. One dope who stood near the supermatter is all it takes to radiate everyone in medbay, at which point everyone has to spend 20 minutes chugging chemicals while getting even more radiated by everyone walking around. It transfers too much to each person it's like a chain reaction effect instead of a distribution.



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Re: Radiation sucks

Postby Kryson » Thu Dec 19, 2019 5:02 am #529832

Lazengann wrote:It's not a fun mechanic in its current state. One dope who stood near the supermatter is all it takes to radiate everyone in medbay, at which point everyone has to spend 20 minutes chugging chemicals while getting even more radiated by everyone walking around. It transfers too much to each person it's like a chain reaction effect instead of a distribution.


Is this with seiver treatment or just pent / KI?

I have to test this, but the best practice for treating rad contamination would probably equipping biosuits, isolating the patient and feeding them seiver with mutadone on standby. If this is just player error medical mains could probably help educate fellow doctors on how to mitigate this issue and solve it organically without further code intervention.

I think if players were more knowledgeable of how seiver works and the great rad resist of biosuits, treating radiation would not be so burdensome.

From a medical players perspective i think large scale disasters such as deadly virus outbreaks, rad contamination and mass poisonings are some of the most fun moments.

Replacing one of the biological protection lockers with a radiation protection locker might also help if maintainers determine code intervention is required.

We have to remember that until the recent medbay overhaul the gameplay was quite simplistic and boring(in my opinion) and the best practices have perhaps not been not been refined and disseminated as much as in other departments.

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Re: Radiation sucks

Postby oranges » Thu Dec 19, 2019 9:42 am #529851

I honestly cannot tell if radiation is actually bad, or people are bad at playing the game

like legitimately I cant

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Re: Radiation sucks

Postby cacogen » Thu Dec 19, 2019 10:34 am #529856

In my limited experience it takes a very long time standing underneath a shower for your radiation level to decrease

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Re: Radiation sucks

Postby CPTANT » Thu Dec 19, 2019 10:53 am #529859

oranges wrote:I honestly cannot tell if radiation is actually bad, or people are bad at playing the game

like legitimately I cant


It's a pretty bad mechanic because the lack of feedback you have makes it very frustrating to deal with. It is invisible and spreads very fast. It doesn't show up how much radiation you actually have on medscanners, just that you "are" irradiated, which shows up far below the threshold it hurts you, geiger counters work but medbay doesn't have them by default.

The anti-radiation mechanics are either complete shit (showers), mediocre (pottasium iodine) or stupidly tedious to make in the amounts required (pentetic). Though it seems seiver might actually be a decent chemical now.

The combination of invisible and fast spreading is IMO just pretty shit.
Last edited by CPTANT on Thu Dec 19, 2019 2:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Radiation sucks

Postby cacogen » Thu Dec 19, 2019 12:29 pm #529865

oranges wrote:I honestly cannot tell if radiation is actually bad, or people are bad at playing the game

rereading this reminded me you don't play

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Re: Radiation sucks

Postby Kryson » Thu Dec 19, 2019 1:23 pm #529874

CPTANT wrote:
It doesn't show up how much radiation you actually have on medscanners, just that you "are" irradiated, which shows up far below the threshold it hurts you, geiger counters work but medbay doesn't have them by default.


The advanced scanner actually does tell you the amount so it is well worth printing / grabbing(if CMO).

Just letting us print Geiger counters at the med lathe could also be part of the solution.

Maybe we could remind the CMO to order a rad protection crate?

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Re: Radiation sucks

Postby Mickyan » Thu Dec 19, 2019 1:51 pm #529878

As mentioned the main issues with radiation are lack of feedback/visual cues rather than methods of treatment, which makes it very confusing to deal with (hence wildly different feedback on the subject) and generally impossible to deal with the root of the problem.
Especially as an MD, during a radiation outbreak you'll have more than enough on your plate and not enough time to go on a wild goose chase with a geiger counter trying to track down the irradiated to shit plasmaman that's walking around the station.
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Re: Radiation sucks

Postby confused rock » Thu Dec 19, 2019 2:02 pm #529880

Why why do pentetic and iodide do nothing why must I use mutadone and charcoal to treat symptoms why must seiver be vaguely lethal so I can’t put it in cryo while also requiring cold so I have to put it in cryo why does rad damage even exist
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Re: Radiation sucks

Postby CPTANT » Thu Dec 19, 2019 2:44 pm #529883

Also the radiation mode on engineering scanners doesn't even work.
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Re: Radiation sucks

Postby Lazengann » Thu Dec 19, 2019 2:56 pm #529887

Radiation functions like a virology disease that has no fast cure, doesn't show up on the med HUD, and you don't get immune to after it's gone. It transfers from person to person who will inevitably walk around the station radiating everyone else because it transfers what seems to be a disproportionate amount of radiation units to each person

Worst part is it makes me bald

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Re: Radiation sucks

Postby Lazengann » Thu Dec 19, 2019 3:01 pm #529888

The round starts, you pick station engineer. You start setting up the supermatter, but one of your dummy coworkers starts it up too early. It starts to go wild. You fix it, but now you're irradiated.

Your next options are to hide for about ten to fifteen minutes to avoid spreading it, walk to medbay and ruin the round for everyone, or call for radiation meds and get tossed a single jab of pentetic so now you only have to spend five minutes under a shower. Naturally, four other engineers walked into you while you were meeting the doctor and they're spreading radiation now.

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Re: Radiation sucks

Postby Anonmare » Thu Dec 19, 2019 4:39 pm #529895

There is a fast and easy way to remove all radiation from someone, but it involves hacking the SSUSs and deals a large amount of burn damage. Having a decontamination chamber that does what the SSU does, but without the damage would make life so much easier for dealing with patient zeros.
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Re: Radiation sucks

Postby CPTANT » Thu Dec 19, 2019 5:24 pm #529905

Anonmare wrote:There is a fast and easy way to remove all radiation from someone, but it involves hacking the SSUSs and deals a large amount of burn damage. Having a decontamination chamber that does what the SSU does, but without the damage would make life so much easier for dealing with patient zeros.


Just buff how fast showers reduced contamination.

This is the code part responsible for showers decontaminating right?

Code: Select all
/obj/machinery/shower/proc/contamination_cleanse(atom/thing)
   var/datum/component/radioactive/healthy_green_glow = thing.GetComponent(/datum/component/radioactive)
   if(!healthy_green_glow || QDELETED(healthy_green_glow))
      return
   var/strength = healthy_green_glow.strength
   if(strength <= RAD_BACKGROUND_RADIATION)
      qdel(healthy_green_glow)
      return
   healthy_green_glow.strength -= max(0, (healthy_green_glow.strength - (RAD_BACKGROUND_RADIATION * 2)) * 0.2)


I guess "healthy_green_glow" is someone trying to be funny with variable names and is just radiation amount?

It seems to only remove one radiation component, does this remove contamination or radiation amount?
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Re: Radiation sucks

Postby Lazengann » Thu Dec 19, 2019 7:05 pm #529917

Showers only remove contamination which doesn't help you when you got bumped into by some random guy

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Re: Radiation sucks

Postby Kel » Thu Dec 19, 2019 8:54 pm #529929

personally i would propose a variant of hacked suit storage units that get rid of contamination with only mild burn damage, dont require hacking, and dont store suits. let the radiation medication deal with sickness while the chambers get rid of the aura of death. naturally, like everything else in medbay, this must be easily sabotage-able to absolutely slaughter anybody who dares step foot into it.
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Re: Radiation sucks

Postby Ayy Lemoh » Thu Dec 19, 2019 9:26 pm #529935

Lazengann wrote:Radiation functions like a virology disease that has no fast cure, doesn't show up on the med HUD, and you don't get immune to after it's gone. It transfers from person to person who will inevitably walk around the station radiating everyone else because it transfers what seems to be a disproportionate amount of radiation units to each person

Worst part is it makes me bald

ayy lmao

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Re: Radiation sucks

Postby deedubya » Fri Dec 20, 2019 2:14 am #529948

oranges wrote:I honestly cannot tell if radiation is actually bad, or people are bad at playing the game

like legitimately I cant

It's not people being bad. Literally the only way as a doctor to even potentially nip a rad hazard in the bud without getting royally fucked yourself is to have a syringe gun loaded with the roundstart anti-rad at the ready 24/7. Arguments could be made about how easy it is for Plasmeme McEngitide to have a jolly stroll around the station after having an SM pow-wow for half an hour. But the biggest concern I have is just how fucking impossible it is for medbay to cure and contain radioactive contamination in its current state. Like honestly, I kind of want to turn the old chemlab(apothecary) into a quarantine zone specifically for shit like this and viruses.

Lazengann wrote:The round starts, you pick station engineer. You start setting up the supermatter, but one of your dummy coworkers starts it up too early. It starts to go wild. You fix it, but now you're irradiated.

Shit like this is probably why oranges even made the above post. Entirely your fault for even going near the SM without a radsuit. Literal workplace hazard with on-hand safety equipment that people choose to ignore.
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Re: Radiation sucks

Postby carshalash » Fri Dec 20, 2019 4:02 am #529955

A certain race being able to make a death aura with radiation is pretty cancerous.

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Re: Radiation sucks

Postby MisterPerson » Fri Dec 20, 2019 6:21 am #529963

CPTANT wrote:-snip-


Absolute shitcode all around. Works with components directly, the formula is unintuitive and poorly written, and worst of all, the math actually makes no sense to begin with. It could have just been radiation.strength *= 0.8 and woulda had roughly the same effect and been 100 times easier to understand. Yet for some reason, with the way it's written, if we tweaked background radiation to be higher, the shower would inexplicably remove radiation more slowly.

All I'm saying is if someone needed another reason to rework radiation, there you go.
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Why realism is stupid:
Spoiler:
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Realism is playing a WW2 shooter and having to spend 2 months in hospital everytime you get shot - stupid and detrimental to gameplay. Nobody actually wants a realistic game, which is why realism arguments are so selectively used.
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Re: Radiation sucks

Postby Mrhugo13 » Fri Dec 27, 2019 5:01 pm #531293

I do remember one idea/thing that i had that would hopefully fix the issue, if people weren't to go the other way around (like in meta)

A decontamination chamber/room that works similar to the virology/engineering one, however the key difference being that once you try to cycle to the other airlock, a bunch of foam starts to spew forth, decontaminating any items or people who had contamination on them.

It wouldn't be too hugbox-y since it only deals with (external) contamination, not with (internal) rads.

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Re: Radiation sucks

Postby CPTANT » Fri Dec 27, 2019 10:47 pm #531379

Mrhugo13 wrote:I do remember one idea/thing that i had that would hopefully fix the issue, if people weren't to go the other way around (like in meta)

A decontamination chamber/room that works similar to the virology/engineering one, however the key difference being that once you try to cycle to the other airlock, a bunch of foam starts to spew forth, decontaminating any items or people who had contamination on them.

It wouldn't be too hugbox-y since it only deals with (external) contamination, not with (internal) rads.


Like I said, just make showers do this.
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Re: Radiation sucks

Postby Reyn » Thu Jan 09, 2020 6:28 pm #534379

Perhaps you should lynch the CE if they decide to become fucking chernobyl. Radiation is a thing. It's dangerous. Usually it's confined to engineering unless someone isnt showering or using radiation protection. If that's the case, they're a hazard. Deal with them appropriately.

Also if someone is draging around RPEDs of radioactive parts, Kill them. For the love of fucking god.
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Re: Radiation sucks

Postby Qbopper » Sat Jan 11, 2020 5:27 pm #534851

oranges wrote:I honestly cannot tell if radiation is actually bad, or people are bad at playing the game

like legitimately I cant


both

I was in the round in question and rads are just not fun to deal with as is, but people are also utterly clueless and make the problems worse
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Re: Radiation sucks

Postby Suspicious » Sun Jan 12, 2020 5:16 am #534988

carshalash wrote:A certain race being able to make a death aura with radiation is pretty cancerous.

Maybe just make the death aura a little harder to generate, or easier to counteract, then, instead of nerfing a race that's already hard to play to begin with. I doubt anyone was thinking plasmamen were anything apart from a 'hard mode' race before this came to light.

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Re: Radiation sucks

Postby OFQ » Mon Jan 13, 2020 5:29 pm #535309

If radiation sucks just make rads spread not only by objects but also by gases so when a plasmameme "forgets" to close SM room door all of the station gets irradiated.
Oh wait, you are complaining about it being too stronk? Well then just play plasmamem like true gamers do I mean add rad airlock hologram similar to medbey infection thingy. Actually you can simply rework engineering holo barrier since no one uses it - instead of being stupid "STOP" barricade it won't pass through anyone who has too much rads. You can install it around SM room and in-front of medbey. EZ fix. Then you can make gases get contaminated.

Spoiler:
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Re: Radiation sucks

Postby Armhulen » Mon Jan 13, 2020 9:43 pm #535339

I'd be much happier if radiation did not spread and instead was a disease like appendicitis. Even if radiation didn't generate forever and ever if left alone, it would still be impossibly annoying to get people to not irradiate everyone else. This mixed with no chance of radiation hud because of lag issues just reaffirms my belief that setting this to some disease and moving on with our lives would be so much easier
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Re: Radiation sucks

Postby oranges » Mon Jan 13, 2020 9:44 pm #535340

Removing the contamination that spreads radiation is probably a good first step.

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Re: Radiation sucks

Postby OFQ » Mon Jan 13, 2020 9:51 pm #535341

oranges wrote:Removing the contamination that spreads radiation is probably a good first step.


But why would you call it radiation then :roll: I'm pretty sure it will be much less of a problem if there was a way to detect(and not let them in) irradiated items and players in critical ares (like in my propose) or even just make them glow. I bet it will solve the 99% of complains. Sec will lynch glowing plasmameme, everyone else will run away from him. Also adding to the server rules "being radioactive makes you valid" will help. But then I can emphasize with Oranges wanting to simply remove contamination so he won't have to code a better fix for "meter bin trick" :P
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Re: Radiation sucks

Postby oranges » Mon Jan 13, 2020 10:00 pm #535343

well, we could make highly contaminated people get like a green glow outline or something

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Re: Radiation sucks

Postby OFQ » Mon Jan 13, 2020 10:03 pm #535344

oranges wrote:well, we could make highly contaminated people get like a green glow outline or something


And items. Can you like attach a glowing smoke/sparkles(similar to trit) sprite to them? So it can be universal for everything. Even if an item is inside a locker the sprite will be visible. You can call the sprite kill_tag/deth_mark/im_valid :D
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Re: Radiation sucks

Postby MisterPerson » Mon Jan 13, 2020 11:41 pm #535380

If something radioactive is in a locker, presumably it will radiate the locker eventually, so that's not a pressing issue.
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Why realism is stupid:
Spoiler:
Wiz, the project lead of Europa Universalis IV:

Immersion/flavor is playing a WW2 shooter and using a mosin-nagant instead of a laser gun - this is important.

Realism is playing a WW2 shooter and having to spend 2 months in hospital everytime you get shot - stupid and detrimental to gameplay. Nobody actually wants a realistic game, which is why realism arguments are so selectively used.
Source: http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/ind ... t-19679470

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Re: Radiation sucks

Postby OFQ » Mon Jan 13, 2020 11:49 pm #535381

Hmmm. Not sure that lockers get irradiated at all. Maybe they do.

- - - - - - -

I noticed that when someone activates an emitter admin gets notification + tracking link. It would be useful if this also happened when someone turns into Chernobyl. Or even better. When Chernobyl walks outside of engineering :D

Spoiler:
Plasmameme, Chernobyl and the harbinger of death walked outside of engineering.
Last edited by OFQ on Tue Jan 14, 2020 3:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Radiation sucks

Postby Armhulen » Tue Jan 14, 2020 12:38 am #535394

oranges wrote:well, we could make highly contaminated people get like a green glow outline or something

This is a really easy pull request that would help the issue tenfold.
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Re: Radiation sucks

Postby OFQ » Tue Jan 14, 2020 7:53 am #535500

There is IMHO even better and easier to implement fix. Give rudimentary Geiger counter that simply crackles to all PDAs. It will be less cheesy than the visible rads, gonna keep it more ominous of a treat and force someone with PDA detector to investigate the source(risking contamination) instead of simply seeing it.

The only drawback that I can see is that a really fast moving and really irradiated plasmameme on drugs running around corridors will cause some damage before it can be detected. Given that the exposure is short it's probably not a problem but you can make stuff not radioactive to other objects while it moves.

Spoiler:
Could even be easier on servers if some kind of rad AOE computation caching can be used given that only static(not moving) objects are radioactive. That rule prolly can even help with the lag that stuff like the "meter bin trick" causes by replacing static irradiated items, rad computation vise, with a singe multi tile prop that can irradiate dynamic objects (all interactions between static objects are computed on update). Even better you might be able to properly fix the "meter bin trick" if that composite rad prop was a graph like structure where each naturally radioactive node(like SM or SM shard) serves as a radiation input + all nodes are radiation drains so the total radiation level stays at the same level that the inputs provides(in terms of a real world they are shielding that absorbs radiation and gets irradiated) + some radiation inertia to simulate decay/irradiation. It probably not too computation expensive if it all can be cached and presented as a static radiation filed that changes over time (in the case of dynamic radiation input) - basically a table lookup: f(t, x, y). You can pre-compute what radiation level will be in N ticks so then you can get the 0..N f values by using interpolation between f(0,x,y) and f(N,x,y)...

Disclaimer: I have no idea what I'm talking about :roll:
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Re: Radiation sucks

Postby deedubya » Tue Jan 14, 2020 3:42 pm #535569

oranges wrote:well, we could make highly contaminated people get like a green glow outline or something

I swear this has been suggested dozens of times in the past, why is it only now being considered?
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oranges wrote:honestly holy shit deedubs you're a dent head

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Re: Radiation sucks

Postby OFQ » Tue Jan 14, 2020 3:55 pm #535574

Can we like for a moment consider contaminating oxygen so it will turn into Oxygen-13 or Oxygen-15? I bet those gases totally breathable with some tiny side effects.

Also nitrogen.


Nitrogen-13 and oxygen-15 are produced in the atmosphere when gamma rays (for example from lightning) knock neutrons out of nitrogen and oxygen


Those isotopes are unstable and will bring much joy to my heart shaped crystal
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Re: Radiation sucks

Postby oranges » Wed Jan 15, 2020 12:18 am #535651

deedubya wrote:
oranges wrote:well, we could make highly contaminated people get like a green glow outline or something

I swear this has been suggested dozens of times in the past, why is it only now being considered?

because none of the people who suggested it can code.

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Re: Radiation sucks

Postby Armhulen » Wed Jan 15, 2020 6:00 am #535707

give me a sprite. i'll do it.
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Re: Radiation sucks

Postby oranges » Wed Jan 15, 2020 9:26 am #535718

bro, you just posted cringe.

there is an outline filter

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Re: Radiation sucks

Postby Armhulen » Wed Jan 15, 2020 10:54 am #535726

i'm not settling for green line i want wibble wobbles of sizzle bop
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Re: Radiation sucks

Postby OFQ » Wed Jan 15, 2020 7:57 pm #535859

Armhulen wrote:i'm not settling for green line i want wibble wobbles of sizzle bop


Hmm. How about fire sprites but with a toxic green hue.

Spoiler:
Art like this would look real legit but not universal. Adding outline + changing object's color to toxic green can come close.
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Lazengann
In-Game Admin
 
Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2017 2:26 pm
Byond Username: Lazengann

Re: Radiation sucks

Postby Lazengann » Thu Jan 16, 2020 5:11 pm #536058

re use the hygiene effect

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ragevirus
 
Joined: Tue Sep 04, 2018 3:05 am
Byond Username: Ragevirus

Re: Radiation sucks

Postby ragevirus » Thu Jan 16, 2020 7:16 pm #536076

Lazengann wrote:re use the hygiene effect


This and make it glow proportional to amount of rads. I want to blind the shit out of people while I turn them into retards

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Sheodir
 
Joined: Fri May 25, 2018 2:44 pm
Byond Username: Sheodir

Re: Radiation sucks

Postby Sheodir » Thu Jan 16, 2020 7:49 pm #536080

I play Holden Westmacott. Sec/PM main most of the time.


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