/tg/Station 13

https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/48236

What do you thunk about the job so far?

tl;dr
- Their job is to stabilize patients and haul them back to medbay where doctors take care of treatment
- Paramedics have access to department lobbies minus brig, but lack acccess to many medical areas to keep them from becoming Doctor+ (see below for details)
- For now, only 2 job slots. If this turns out to be too few during testing, we can always increase it.

Part of me feels this is a bit unnecessary, adds to an already bloated medical department, and could be better served by giving MDs maint + basic lobby access, so doctors could choose to be first responders or medbay bound depending on their taste and the situation at hand. Some doctors(including myself) already do this, usually with the HoP's assistance.

The other part of me sees this as something that should have been in the game already, and helps to add a necessary and dedicated interim between laying dead in maint and winding up at the medbay.

I'm honestly torn. I think I'd still lean towards doctors being given the additional access, though. Out of everyone in the medbay, the basic doctor has the least access to my knowledge. Giving them maint would certainly help. Perhaps adding Jaws of Life to the medical lathe would also be a boon for potential paramedics, with or without a dedicated job. Jaws of life are typically seen as rescue equipment, rather than the engineer's skeleton key that they currently function as. (also, why do engis even need jaws anyway, they can all get insuls and hack doors freely)

Five doctors should really be enough for this, they already have access to handheld monitors. I think it's more interesting to have people take on such roles rather than force it.

I've been having a blast with it. I like the additional access and the "wait and respond" style of gameplay, so I can still get my socialization in. I keep walking in on antagonists and getting brutally killed but that's part of the fun. I like letting other doctors do the healing. I think it's a great addition.

Lazengann wrote:so I can still get my socialization in.

This. I would argue that most jobs should allow for some kind of downtime for interactions between players. Splitting doctor like this is great and eliminates the chore of trying to finagle the HoP into it.

? ? cool job but why is it only testemerged in terry? job works better on higher pop like event hall

What's especially nice is that you don't have to sit in medbay to know when to respond so you can give the clown, mime, and bartender some love without feeling like you're blowing your job off.

I find this job fun from both a practical and RP standpoint and it's possibly my personal favorite bit of crew content so far since the antag freeze started.

Only have two bits of feedback:

• 1: Round start health analyzer maybe?
  2: I'm an emergency first responder, presumably... So couldn't there be a more emergency-ish way to give epinephrine, calomel, formaldehyde than a syringe and some bottles? A small but generous supply of medipens, a hypospray, anything?

annoyinggreencatgirl wrote:I find this job fun from both a practical and RP standpoint and it's possibly my personal favorite bit of crew content so far since the antag freeze started.

Only have two bits of feedback:

• 1: Round start health analyzer maybe?
  2: I'm an emergency first responder, presumably... So couldn't there be a more emergency-ish way to give epinephrine, calomel, formaldehyde than a syringe and some bottles? A small but generous supply of medipens, a hypospray, anything?

You dont need a health analyzer to stabilize someone. examine them and you see that they are bleeding or unconcious and go from there. Paramedics are about moving the injured to medbay not curing them on the spot.

this job is pretty great. i like spending my time pda'ing people to turn on suit sensors. my only complaint is that there really aren't many alt clothes you can wear that would still make you look like a paramedic because if you're gonna be swishing around your elevated access you best be showing people you are a paramedic from a glance

Dr_bee wrote:

annoyinggreencatgirl wrote:I find this job fun from both a practical and RP standpoint and it's possibly my personal favorite bit of crew content so far since the antag freeze started.

Only have two bits of feedback:

• 1: Round start health analyzer maybe?
  2: I'm an emergency first responder, presumably... So couldn't there be a more emergency-ish way to give epinephrine, calomel, formaldehyde than a syringe and some bottles? A small but generous supply of medipens, a hypospray, anything?

You dont need a health analyzer to stabilize someone. examine them and you see that they are bleeding or unconcious and go from there. Paramedics are about moving the injured to medbay not curing them on the spot.

You're supposed to at least stabilize them on-site though, so they can be safely transported to medbay.

That being said, in response to the original post: That's the advantage of being an EMT instead of a random crewmember. It's literally your job to treat/stabalize on-site, so you're not expected to just jam an epipen and fireman carry them to medbay. Since it's your dedicated job, you have the time(and resources) to use more mundane tools to get them stable before hauling them off.

Alternatively, loot all the white kits from medicine storage and just have a belt full of epipens. It's what I did back when I played doctor-EMT.

annoyinggreencatgirl wrote:I find this job fun from both a practical and RP standpoint and it's possibly my personal favorite bit of crew content so far since the antag freeze started.

Only have two bits of feedback:

• 1: Round start health analyzer maybe?
  2: I'm an emergency first responder, presumably... So couldn't there be a more emergency-ish way to give epinephrine, calomel, formaldehyde than a syringe and some bottles? A small but generous supply of medipens, a hypospray, anything?

Your PDA has a health analyzer built in.

The paramedic has an uncanny ability to always be doing surgery on your patients when you want him to be out looking for patients, but he is invariably somewhere else when you need him to administer calomel.

I think it is a good job, but i wish they had more specialist tools because they are too much like a doctor at the moment.

I think the 3 main medbay jobs have quite a bit of overlap and need to be better delineated.

Kryson wrote:The paramedic has an uncanny ability to always be doing surgery on your patients when you want him to be out looking for patients, but he is invariably somewhere else when you need him to administer calomel.

I think it is a good job, but i wish they had more specialist tools because they are too much like a doctor at the moment.

I think the 3 main medbay jobs have quite a bit of overlap and need to be better delineated.

This can easily be solved by removing their surgery access. Heavy handed but nothing says "not your job" like the doors not opening.

Dr_bee wrote:

Kryson wrote:The paramedic has an uncanny ability to always be doing surgery on your patients when you want him to be out looking for patients, but he is invariably somewhere else when you need him to administer calomel.

I think it is a good job, but i wish they had more specialist tools because they are too much like a doctor at the moment.

I think the 3 main medbay jobs have quite a bit of overlap and need to be better delineated.

This can easily be solved by removing their surgery access. Heavy handed but nothing says "not your job" like the doors not opening.

Paramedics do not have access to surgery.

HommandoSA wrote:

Dr_bee wrote:

Kryson wrote:The paramedic has an uncanny ability to always be doing surgery on your patients when you want him to be out looking for patients, but he is invariably somewhere else when you need him to administer calomel.

I think it is a good job, but i wish they had more specialist tools because they are too much like a doctor at the moment.

I think the 3 main medbay jobs have quite a bit of overlap and need to be better delineated.

This can easily be solved by removing their surgery access. Heavy handed but nothing says "not your job" like the doors not opening.

Paramedics do not have access to surgery.

True, most surgery is done on the stasis beds though since they are superior to the surgical tables. (mostly tend wounds / coronary bypass / lobectomy)

Spitballing ideas here but these guys could use a rollerbed/iv drip combo

Ideas:
The stasis beds/cryogenics could be better isolated with airlocks and programmed to only respond to the doctors, chemists can still access cryogenics for beaker replacement.
Paramedics could have a machine that can reload epi-pens (and only epi-pens) for fast administration without giving them hyposprays (that should remain CMO only)
Move the medical spacesuit from the CMO's office and move it to the paramedic area for space retrievals.
Allow aggressive grabs to reduce the rate of bleeding by half, wearing nitrile/latex gloves reduces it by 95%.
Make nitrile/latex gloves perform CPR faster than people without.
Give them a portable organ cooler for quickly and safely storing lost organs from gibs/disembowlments.
Allow them to carry crowbars in their belts for circumventing locked firelocks.
Move one of the fireaxe cabinets to (prefereably command's) to the paramedics where it would make more logical sense.
Port stasis bags, preferably the one-use variety.

Anonmare wrote:Allow aggressive grabs to reduce the rate of bleeding by half, wearing nitrile/latex gloves reduces it by 95%.

this is pretty fucking based but I like all of your ideas

glad to see some good medical changes being proposed

HommandoSA wrote:

Dr_bee wrote:

Kryson wrote:The paramedic has an uncanny ability to always be doing surgery on your patients when you want him to be out looking for patients, but he is invariably somewhere else when you need him to administer calomel.

I think it is a good job, but i wish they had more specialist tools because they are too much like a doctor at the moment.

I think the 3 main medbay jobs have quite a bit of overlap and need to be better delineated.

This can easily be solved by removing their surgery access. Heavy handed but nothing says "not your job" like the doors not opening.

Paramedics do not have access to surgery.

I'm not sure what it's like on all the maps, but on meta paramedics have access to the smaller surgery room across from the CMO's office, but not the big operating theater across from the cryo room.

Turning the little medbay maint storage rooms on meta and delta into a paramedic lounge/office for equipment would also be a good idea. If I recall correctly baymed codebases tend to have them.

It would further differentiate paramedics from medical doctors, as they would have their own gear-up and roundstart spawn area. the proposed epi-pen re-filler could be in this office.

i dont see the need of a paramedic room, when i play low/mid pop i make a chem bag and empty 1/3 of the medvendor in it, empty a tox kit and oxy kit in it, psicodine pill botle tooo-+, grab a white medkit and fill my medbelt with another white medkit and a backpack toolbelt from eva and then i m 90% walking around the station and going to places where ppl with sensors are hurt and carrying lava charred miner corpses to cloning and helping incompetent doctors if they are doing retarded shit, what i usually run out of is basic brute/burn patches , converol and iron pills , epipen is usefull only if the idiot is in an hardsuit and it takes too much time to remove it

Tlaltecuhtli wrote:i dont see the need of a paramedic room, when i play low/mid pop i make a chem bag and empty 1/3 of the medvendor in it, empty a tox kit and oxy kit in it, psicodine pill botle tooo-+, grab a white medkit and fill my medbelt with another white medkit and a backpack toolbelt from eva and then i m 90% walking around the station and going to places where ppl with sensors are hurt and carrying lava charred miner corpses to cloning and helping incompetent doctors if they are doing retarded shit, what i usually run out of is basic brute/burn patches , converol and iron pills , epipen is usefull only if the idiot is in an hardsuit and it takes too much time to remove it

I think this is why

Dr_bee wrote:It would further differentiate paramedics from medical doctors

needs a stun baton and cuffs so you can heal people

cacogen wrote:needs a stun baton and cuffs so you can heal people

I have joked about it before, but roundstart every doctor, chemist, and viro should have a .357 and a couple of reloads for greytiders and brainlets who insist on stealing half the medkits. Or refusing to submit to surgery when they don't have enough blood in them to sustain a boner.

Better yet, just nerf the literal shit out of regen mesh and sutures.

(Paramedic's a good job. Nice work coderbus.)

if I want to do the exact stuff paramedics are made to do I'll still play fucking doctor for it. Scientist is all one job and so can doctor, this is still awkward. instead of the complaint of docs having nothing to do (which was fixed by giving them chemistry) now we have paramedics having nothing to do when people aren't in imminent danger, and doctors having nothing to do when people are.

oh boohoo baby

I still don't understand why the pinpointer was changed to be shit.

^ they never have their suit sensors up anyway

carshalash wrote:I still don't understand why the pinpointer was changed to be shit.

a magic "here's where they are" pinpointer was kinda boring and made the role essentially chasing down an arrow, now there's a bit more lookup to it
kinda hjave to make the crew pinpointer even rarer to compensate tbh, but I've been having fun chasing corpses with only the location and the ball

Making the proximity pinpointer able to detect people with their sensors on but on any setting would make that particular pinpointer actually a nice sidegrade and useful to keep around instead of replacing it as fast as possible. Just a thought, direct upgrades are kind of boring.

Pinpointer was useless before and it's just slightly more useless now unless you have no clue about the station's layout

The only time I wished I had the old one is the rare case you have to recover someone from space and it would have just saved me making a quick lap around the station

You job is partially reliant on needing the crew to maintain their suit sensors.

Also, being a running ambulance around the station is fun. But I'll be honest, I literally ditch the starting equipment and go get proper meds because people will almost always put someone in a worse critical state on-site and I have to do more than just stabilize or they'll not make it back to medbay. The only thing I might otherwise hold onto is formaldehyde for those instances where they end up dying en route, but I honestly think they need a dropper to apply it. A syringe wastes so much formaldehyde.

so are paramedics just doctors with less equipment

They have roundstart maint access and basic access to most departments (except the brig), as well as a pinpointer and crew monitor. It's what many medical doctors already did but roundstart and officiated in a way. It's going out and healing people.

I still feel it is unnecessary job bloat and should have just been given to doctors. Medbay is already divided in too many niche jobs.

I used to like going out and healing people and was good at surgery, now I have to pick one. Boohoo I guess for not agreeing with orange man

confused rock wrote:I used to like going out and healing people and was good at surgery, now I have to pick one. Boohoo I guess for not agreeing with orange man

CPTANT wrote:I still feel it is unnecessary job bloat and should have just been given to doctors. Medbay is already divided in too many niche jobs.

This just tells me you haven't played much since new Med got added in Medbay. Part of the reason why the Paramedic is an interesting addition is because the new Medical and upcoming cloning removal makes MD a much more involved role that is more consistently busy, as surgery now requires more than half a brain and is usually a little more needed since 'slap a patch on it' isn't as effective. There's been very little downtime in Medbay recently and the addition of PM as a separate role has absolutely helped.

It'd help more if PM players learned for good that they aren't discount MDs. Stabilize and bring in. Defib if dead. I still think they need some kind of EVA alternative for space rescues - I'm messing with the idea of a disposable, temporary EVA suit stored in a capsule.

I have played after the changes. I did both just fine, but it’s harder when the crew monitor costs 1000 vbucks so I can’t tell when I need to scoot at any time.

There are crew monitors in medbay.

i've seen a lot of older doctor players go the role and use it as doctor+ since it's easier to get medbay access from CMO than it is to get maint access from hop

I'm unsure of the specific accesses since I haven't tried paramedic, what do they not get access to? If they don't already they should get access to the area with sleepers (I wrote this before realizing my mistake but I'll leave it because it's funny) so they can drop off stabilized patients a little more cleanly

Beyond that I think making MD more involved with surgery and giving another role the job to collect injured/unconscious/dead people and stabilize them before bringing them to the doctors is good design

To be honest, medbay needs to be more closed off and the paramedics need their own area seperate from medbay proper. I'd even go far as to say to bar paramedics from the stasis bed room by default to further reinforce the "not a doctor" message.

Nothing to be done about the CMO altering access levels but that's just something they always could've done in the past (I.E. Doctors for chemistry) and doesn't need to be addressed.

A more clear access restriction would go a long way to making the distinction between the two more clearer, much like engineers and atmos technicians who have similar, but distinct roles.

Anonmare wrote:To be honest, medbay needs to be more closed off and the paramedics need their own area seperate from medbay proper. I'd even go far as to say to bar paramedics from the stasis bed room by default to further reinforce the "not a doctor" message.

Nothing to be done about the CMO altering access levels but that's just something they always could've done in the past (I.E. Doctors for chemistry) and doesn't need to be addressed.

A more clear access restriction would go a long way to making the distinction between the two more clearer, much like engineers and atmos technicians who have similar, but distinct roles.

Yeah I was on mobile so I wrote my post poorly but I agree

I think the idea of a temporary holding lobby for MDs to pick up critical patients up from is a good idea, and on second thought, since paramedics are the ones out and about and MDs are staying in medbay, you shouldn't need stasis beds because the doctors should just see that a patient is there and bring them in

It might require some (pretty simple) mapping work to do this but I think you're on the right track

Qbopper wrote:I'm unsure of the specific accesses since I haven't tried paramedic, what do they not get access to? If they don't already they should get access to the area with sleepers (I wrote this before realizing my mistake but I'll leave it because it's funny) so they can drop off stabilized patients a little more cleanly

Beyond that I think making MD more involved with surgery and giving another role the job to collect injured/unconscious/dead people and stabilize them before bringing them to the doctors is good design

They have access to almost the full medbay sans Surgery room, CMO office, Chems and Viro. Not bad.

Anonmare wrote:To be honest, medbay needs to be more closed off and the paramedics need their own area seperate from medbay proper. I'd even go far as to say to bar paramedics from the stasis bed room by default to further reinforce the "not a doctor" message.

Nothing to be done about the CMO altering access levels but that's just something they always could've done in the past (I.E. Doctors for chemistry) and doesn't need to be addressed.

A more clear access restriction would go a long way to making the distinction between the two more clearer, much like engineers and atmos technicians who have similar, but distinct roles.

Disagreed. I don't have much issue with PMs working as MDs when there are MDs, only when they're lacking MDs. My main issue with PM permissions is that their sector permissions are weird. Sometimes they honestly need more (they can't enter into actual engineering space through the front door??) but sometimes they need less (can walk straight into engi storage and sometimes even the SM through maint!).

Qbopper wrote: Yeah I was on mobile so I wrote my post poorly but I agree

I think the idea of a temporary holding lobby for MDs to pick up critical patients up from is a good idea, and on second thought, since paramedics are the ones out and about and MDs are staying in medbay, you shouldn't need stasis beds because the doctors should just see that a patient is there and bring them in

It might require some (pretty simple) mapping work to do this but I think you're on the right track

Again, PMs acting as ghetto MDs isn't that much a problem given their lack of access to the Surgery room. They only do it when there are no MDs. It could be efficiently and cleanly discouraged further by moving stasis to Surgery proper since that's what they are - the actual surgery beds.

Barring PM access to the rest of Medbay proper would be terrible - they wouldn't be able to actually arm up on kits and equipment on Medical Storage.

Sheodir wrote:Barring PM access to the rest of Medbay proper would be terrible - they wouldn't be able to actually arm up on kits and equipment on Medical Storage.

I think the implication with anonmare and I was that the medbay would be reworked to give them less access overall, but via reworking the layout you'd still give them the ability to access the tools they need and a room to drop patients off in, as opposed to just as is removing accesses from paramedics

Qbopper wrote:

Sheodir wrote:Barring PM access to the rest of Medbay proper would be terrible - they wouldn't be able to actually arm up on kits and equipment on Medical Storage.

I think the implication with anonmare and I was that the medbay would be reworked to give them less access overall, but via reworking the layout you'd still give them the ability to access the tools they need and a room to drop patients off in, as opposed to just as is removing accesses from paramedics

I just feel this is unnecessary as all hell. PMs working as Doctors when MDs are not present is fine and expected behavior, if you keep MDs from being discount Paramedics they will naturally use up the stations and PMs be forced to head out for emergencies.

making medbay more closed off is good because then I have less assistants charging in after the paramedic dragging someone in crit demanding i give them my sutures or give them ligament hook or whatever

imagine if you were in a real hospital as a real doctor and a guy just shoved his way into the operating ward and started walking up to random doctors and asking them to feel around in him

Super Aggro Crag wrote:making medbay more closed off is good because then I have less assistants charging in after the paramedic dragging someone in crit demanding i give them my sutures or give them ligament hook or whatever

imagine if you were in a real hospital as a real doctor and a guy just shoved his way into the operating ward and started walking up to random doctors and asking them to feel around in him

based

Super Aggro Crag wrote:making medbay more closed off is good because then I have less assistants charging in after the paramedic dragging someone in crit demanding i give them my sutures or give them ligament hook or whatever

imagine if you were in a real hospital as a real doctor and a guy just shoved his way into the operating ward and started walking up to random doctors and asking them to feel around in him

This isn't a bad point at all but I feel this is more a point for having a general medbay access segregation than a "Paramedics shouldn't access it" segregation. Put that in but let Paramedics come in.