CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

[Ayy Lemoh]

And if this change goes through, your changes have an actual reason to be made, if not by you by someone who cares - reworked cloning so it is either an alternate technology or rare ruin

But it already is a fucking rare ruin. They're removing it too.

[Sheodir]

And if this change goes through, your changes have an actual reason to be made, if not by you by someone who cares - reworked cloning so it is either an alternate technology or rare ruin

But it already is a fucking rare ruin. They're removing it too.

The experimental cloner is a rare ruin, not the normal cloner. By what I understand it is being removed because the whole code is being uprooted? I don't understand the logic here, perhaps the PR's author can explain, but I believe the cloning code is some major spaghetti anyhow.

[Noka]

I mean this as nicely as possible, but this is a failure of reading comprehension. Just because you're incapable of parsing an answer doesn't mean it wasn't given.

I mean this as nicely as possible, but this is a failure of thread comprehension. Just because you're incapable of reading the thread and seeing everyone who's ever tried to directly ask this question has been completely ignored or otherwise had their question not fully answered or even addressed doesn't mean it didn't happen.

Protip: Pretty much all of the justifications so far are that cloning needs to change. Nobody with more than two brain cells is arguing cloning should not change.

There just haven't really been direct arguments as to why removal is the correct path forward. Anytime this question is 'answered', it is providing evidence cloning as it is now is bad, not that removal is good. Sometimes there's a hint of an argument for removal, but I really haven't seen a post where skog actually explains & supports removal rather than says that cloning is bad. A lot of the reasons provided against specific suggestions are provided as "I want this to be like this" without arguing the merits of the reason, or "It would fail to fix the problem of cloning", which is a perfectly fair argument, but it isn't as if it actually answers why removal is good, it just answers why the idea suggested is bad.

Also, let me be clear here: I don't particularly believe skog is behaving like some kind of ~evil mastermind~, but I do feel like some of the parts of this PR that feel like an overreach feel like a coder not wanting his work to be reverted and preferring the idea of complete removal over something he'd potentially have to do additive maintenance to. I totally agree that making the removal because of code bloat and obsolescence are perfectly valid reasons to remove the cloning code if removal is the angle we choose, but I dislike that these reasons are reasons I'm hearing from third parties, and I don't really even recall skog talking about code bloat or obsolescence? Those are some super obvious answers, especially considering it's been used repeatedly as a great justification for removing garbage nobody maintained anymore.

Like. Normally, I would ask said coder to justify decisions like this by saying why the solution they chose is correct over other solutions to the same problem.

skog, as noted above, hasn't really done that. It seems like the question is being avoided because multiple people have repeated it and it hasn't been directly answered, to the point the people who ask it directly are being talked around rather than actually spoken at by the person who's supposed to be justifying why his PR should be merged. If this is because he wants the opportunity to really shift the meta towards revival surgery and he feels that can never happen while cloning exists in any form, okay.

Do I know that's his reason? No. Do I honestly think that's his only reason? Also probably not. It's half-formed guesswork because skog hasn't been terribly transparent about the exact feelings he has on why removal is the only way forward for cloning. And that is the problem I have with this entire conversation. I don't really mind talking around the people who are going to ride or die for cloning to exist and spout the same old garbage, and I'm happy to talk about reasonable points here, but there's no way anyone can argue with skog if it's not even clear why he thinks the path he's taking is correct.

It just ends up being fundamentally pointless.

[Sheodir]

snip

Please respond with your thoughts on my feedback on the last post of the third page. Curious what you think of them.

[deedubya]

Oranges acts the way he does because even if he takes the high road - being patient and explaining reasoning for changes to people - 95% of them will still call him a retard and demand shit be done their way instead. Why even attempt to reason with people that won't be swayed regardless of what you say?

He also winds up having to take the heat for changes that he isn't necessarily responsible for, and is expected to be able to answer on their behalf...although there's less sympathy for that one because that just comes with the territory of being the head of a project. If you're calling the shots, you have to take the flak for the decisions that get made under your watch.

[Sheodir]

Oranges acts the way he does because even if he takes the high road - being patient and explaining reasoning for changes to people - 95% of them will still call him a retard and demand shit be done their way instead. Why even attempt to reason with people that won't be swayed regardless of what you say?

He also winds up having to take the heat for changes that he isn't necessarily responsible for, and is expected to be able to answer on their behalf...although there's less sympathy for that one because that just comes with the territory of being the head of a project. If you're calling the shots, you have to take the flak for the decisions that get made under your watch.

My main frustration at the moment is that as per the last post of page three I'm trying to actually talk about the cloning removal feedback and instead most of this thread is either oranges and others going "lol this good y mad" and people who don't like oranges walling huge complaints about him. Can we please just continue discussing the PR? The guy who pushed it did try to actually talk about it but has been radio silence still.

This is called the "CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK" thread, not the "Oranges Feedback" thread.

[Super Aggro Crag]

i disagree.

[PKPenguin321]

This post was deleted by PKPenguin321 on Sat Jan 18, 2020 10:45 pm.
Reason: settle down

[PKPenguin321]

This post was deleted by PKPenguin321 on Sat Jan 18, 2020 10:46 pm.
Reason: Response to delete

[PKPenguin321]

This post was deleted by PKPenguin321 on Sun Jan 19, 2020 12:54 am.
Reason: cring offtopic "why u delet me"

[PKPenguin321]

This post was deleted by PKPenguin321 on Sun Jan 19, 2020 8:19 am.
Reason: cringe!

[Sheodir]

i disagree.

why

[deedubya]

Since it is likely to be an issue, replica pod availability has been reduced along the lines of what I have discussed. They are no longer roundstart in the botany seed vendors and the cargo crate now has 1 pack instead of 3. Leaves it available for now, but requiring you to buy the starter seeds (and grow more) or mutate some cabbages. These are already low seed yield ranging from 1-2 seeds per generation depending on yield, so should be fine as they require effort™.

this is the exact opposite of what people were trying to get

if cloning is getting the axe, alternative round reentry methods need to be more common, not more restricted

[Cobby]

If you remove X and bump Y up to the point X may has well not been removed, what's the point of removing X?

[Super Aggro Crag]

If your logic behind removing "x" was that it was boring and non-engaging and then cripple Y, which requires more faffery and flummery, then you're just being a poop head.

[deedubya]

If you remove X and bump Y up to the point X may has well not been removed, what's the point of removing X?

Because Y isn't equivalent to X, obviously. Pod revival is a more lengthy process, doesn't work on husked corpses, and has the downside of forcing you into a podperson. Ergo, consequence for death, and not a piss easy revival. If anything, we should be encouraging methods like this, not trying to discourage revival in general.

[skoglol]

And you still can podclone. Just not for free roundstart.

[PKPenguin321]

And you still can podclone. Just not for free roundstart.

if that's the angle why not gate cloning instead of removing it?

[oranges]

This post was deleted by oranges on Sun Jan 26, 2020 3:33 am.
Reason: worse than the phone posting

[Super Aggro Crag]

And you still can podclone. Just not for free roundstart.

if that's the angle why not gate cloning instead of removing it?

BECAUSE

MY TARGET

GOT CLONED

AND I REDTEXTED

YOU FUCKER

[oranges]

And you still can podclone. Just not for free roundstart.

if that's the angle why not gate cloning instead of removing it?

<snip>

If you're not adding much to the conversation, please post in NTR hut instead

[Timonk]

Don't expect to get revived with less than 1 doc on the shift because nobody cares enough to do Sr and synthflesh to revive you

[Lazengann]

yes if there is less than one doctor you may have trouble finding a doctor

[Kendrickorium]

The only thing I see this doing is giving roboticists more brains for borging

[adamkad1]

So, being someone who played on baystation, im not really opposed to cloning removal, but the big difference is that bay does not have shitchems (bay's chems however, do not repair things instantly, heck, they are pretty slow, meaning you have to stick around in medbay, or somewhere else when healing, which i think is good. Didnt someone suggest porting baymed? Anyway, Besides the obvious 'no ez revival' this also hurts medical ability to aquire cheap organs (empty clones) to amend the annoying fast organ decay, and underwhelming amount of organ repair options and cheap dissections (science loves that), which i been engaging in quite a lot recently. And that sucks. So removal of cloning sucks, but not being able to clone players is not the main reason for me

[Sheodir]

So, being someone who played on baystation, im not really opposed to cloning removal, but the big difference is that bay does not have shitchems (bay's chems however, do not repair things instantly, heck, they are pretty slow, meaning you have to stick around in medbay, or somewhere else when healing, which i think is good. Didnt someone suggest porting baymed? Anyway, Besides the obvious 'no ez revival' this also hurts medical ability to aquire cheap organs (empty clones) to amend the annoying fast organ decay, and underwhelming amount of organ repair options and cheap dissections (science loves that), which i been engaging in quite a lot recently. And that sucks. So removal of cloning sucks, but not being able to clone players is not the main reason for me

Whilst I'm not fully in favor of Baymed making healing a less instantaneous process would be great. Could use all the now extra space with cloning gone for actual wards where people can heal up and even arr pee in the arr pee servers with Docs and such. Not sure what the best way to balance this is - because you'll always have quick ways to heal certain types of damage. One very old suggestion was for all damage to go from 0 to 200 as it is but anything past 100 had to be healed either slowly or through chems and was bold to signify "longterm" damage.

Something worth discussing I suppose.

[skoglol]

Anyway, Besides the obvious 'no ez revival' this also hurts medical ability to aquire cheap organs (empty clones) to amend the annoying fast organ decay, and underwhelming amount of organ repair options and cheap dissections (science loves that), which i been engaging in quite a lot recently. And that sucks. So removal of cloning sucks, but not being able to clone players is not the main reason for me

Cybernetic organs (basic shit versions) are available roundstart, better ones by research. Organic ones can also be printed in the limb grower now (could use a rename).
Cheap dissections, well get some monkey cubes from somewhere and give them some mutadone.

[kopoba]

So only alternative to cloning now is removing humanazied monkey head and replace it with dead man one. Fast and easy just like cloning.
All other shity procedures will include fixinng ~200-400 damage of brut/burn, printing liver,lungs, heart, replacing them in victim. Maybe printing limbs and attaching them. This shit will take around 10 minutes or more. If i remember right brain also taking damage over time so i think if body lays to long you must get brain from body use mantilol on it and insert it back. +~3minutes to do surgery and get mantitol.
Imagine how many operation you must do to revive one man versus cloning.

[Sheodir]

So only alternative to cloning now is removing humanazied monkey head and replace it with dead man one. Fast and easy just like cloning.
All other shity procedures will include fixinng ~200-400 damage of brut/burn, printing liver,lungs, heart, replacing them in victim. Maybe printing limbs and attaching them. This shit will take around 10 minutes or more. If i remember right brain also taking damage over time so i think if body lays to long you must get brain from body use mantilol on it and insert it back. +~3minutes to do surgery and get mantitol.
Imagine how many operation you must do to revive one man versus cloning.

That's... kinda the point. Making medical an involved job you actually need to learn rather than click and forget. You have all the means to DO this. Med mains are mostly ecstactic over the prospect for a reason, they get to actually have a job and likely attract more MDs that want to do that job rather than being "medtiders" who just sort of afk in medbay and run around doing greyshit things.

Humanized monkey exploit should and likely will be removed.

[kopoba]

That's... kinda the point. Making medical an involved job you actually need to learn rather than click and forget. You have all the means to DO this. Med mains are mostly ecstactic over the prospect for a reason, they get to actually have a job and likely attract more MDs that want to do that job rather than being "medtiders" who just sort of afk in medbay and run around doing greyshit things.

Humanized monkey exploit should and likely will be removed.

Nah point is that im dead please restart
Death is not fun and waiting single doctor to process 6 dead dudes that will take one hour and average time of shift of 30-40 minutes meh

[Muncher21]

Nah point is that im dead please restart
Death is not fun and waiting single doctor to process 6 dead dudes that will take one hour and average time of shift of 30-40 minutes meh

People having this mentality is exactly why cloning was bad for the game.

Med mains are mostly ecstactic over the prospect for a reason, they get to actually have a job and likely attract more MDs that want to do that job rather than being "medtiders" who just sort of afk in medbay and run around doing greyshit things.

Amen. Med-bay is actually fun to play now, and you feel like you actually matter to the station.

[NoxVS]

about half of all brain transplants I have doctors do end with me permanently dead due to their incompetence. While the ideal outcome of this is doctors working hard to fix everyone, we all know its going to often result in a pile of corpses in a competition with the braindead doctors for the award of most intelligent thing in medical.

[OFQ]

Just borg everyone (c) Malf AI

[adamkad1]

Also, organ decay is too fasta

[skoglol]

If you want organs to not decay, stasis beds or formaldehyde. There is a small amount of formaldehyde in epi pens, so stabbing a corpse prevents decay entirely.

[SkeletalElite]

My concern is that if revival takes too long revivals often won't happen at all because people will just get off the game or server hop when they die.

Especially if there's a backlog of corpses to bring back which happens sometimes.

[Sheodir]

I recommend playing Medical with the test merge in now and see how your arguments hold up on their own. There's no massive stockpile of unrevived dead bodies. I saw a legit dehusking of a guy lost in Lavaland yesterday and it was great. Organs were decayed, limbs were missing, yet they managed.

MDs will actually learn their jobs now. Much like when the Singo became the SM, the setup will force the job takers to actually care about the job they picked rather than using it as a tiding with extra perms role. MD as a job has been neglected for far too long.

[PKPenguin321]

And you still can podclone. Just not for free roundstart.

if that's the angle why not gate cloning instead of removing it?

a real response to this would be appreciated

[oranges]

This post was deleted by oranges on Mon Jan 27, 2020 7:43 am.
Reason: last chance

[Sheodir]

And you still can podclone. Just not for free roundstart.

if that's the angle why not gate cloning instead of removing it?

a real response to this would be appreciated

The short answer is that later down the line making an actual comeback to cloning that requires way more research, time, and development is totally viable

The longform answer is kind of layered

- The cloning code kinda was super fucking spaghet so that'd probably involve coding cloning a lot better to begin with
- Research is a mess and rushing nodes is too easy as is, making its removal an inconvenience at best
- having it not be there is opening up a lot of good opportunities elsewhere, both for medical and elsewhere, and having it be a researchable thing would remove most
- seriously there's no way to balance it as an unlock that wouldn't cause in people overfamiliar with it just rushing it instead of learning medical
- if someone can balance this comeback to cloning well and code it and put it up sure but it seems unlikely

That's the tl;dr

PS: podclone is already too easy as it is and should be way way way fucking harder honestly it's basically free if your botanist isn't braindead
and i mean way less braindead than your MD has to not be to revive you normally

[skoglol]

And you still can podclone. Just not for free roundstart.

if that's the angle why not gate cloning instead of removing it?

a real response to this would be appreciated

Pod cloning is tentatively left in while I observe how all this plays out. The reason for this is split between allowing botanists to turn themselves into podpeople and keeping the option available for players. It's fine so long as they dont become the single mainstream way of doing it. If that happens, its an indication that we need further changes to podcloning to make it less attractive.
I have stated a few times already why I think time gating cloning isnt the right way to move forward, both in this thread and on github.

[deedubya]

And you still can podclone. Just not for free roundstart.

Which still goes against the spirit of it, as well as giving botanists yet more shit they have to spend money on. There should be more access to pod seeds at roundstart, and they should be free. If you want to get rid of cloning and make the alternative methods work, you need to actually give people sufficient access to the alternatives. Especially roundstart when surgery is a more time consuming and less reliable method of revival.

[SkeletalElite]

Pod cloning is tentatively left in while I observe how all this plays out. The reason for this is split between allowing botanists to turn themselves into podpeople and keeping the option available for players. It's fine so long as they dont become the single mainstream way of doing it. If that happens, its an indication that we need further changes to podcloning to make it less attractive.
I have stated a few times already why I think time gating cloning isnt the right way to move forward, both in this thread and on github.

If pod cloning became a main stream method of revival is that really a bad thing though? Pod cloning is more effort that the cloner is and I'm not even sure pod cloning would become the goto for revival if it was.

[Sheodir]

And you still can podclone. Just not for free roundstart.

Which still goes against the spirit of it, as well as giving botanists yet more shit they have to spend money on. There should be more access to pod seeds at roundstart, and they should be free. If you want to get rid of cloning and make the alternative methods work, you need to actually give people sufficient access to the alternatives. Especially roundstart when surgery is a more time consuming and less reliable method of revival.

And you still can podclone. Just not for free roundstart.

Which still goes against the spirit of it, as well as giving botanists yet more shit they have to spend money on. There should be more access to pod seeds at roundstart, and they should be free. If you want to get rid of cloning and make the alternative methods work, you need to actually give people sufficient access to the alternatives. Especially roundstart when surgery is a more time consuming and less reliable method of revival.

Guys, if it isn't clear, the whole point is that dying should be a major inconvenience and it being difficult to resolve, specially in a timely fashion, is the entire point. Let MD actually serve a purpose.

[Critawakets]

Sheodir i cant tell if you are serious or not. Please specify every time you post.

[Sheodir]

Sheodir i cant tell if you are serious or not. Please specify every time you post.

I'm relatively new on the forums despite being a very old login ckey on /tg/, but let this be clear and valid for everything I ever say: I am being a hundred percent sincere and it'll be pretty obvious when I'm joking. This change already had positive effect on Medbay, and podcloning is honestly currently still too easy to do and only gated by the fact botany is likely second only to Atmospherics in roles people don't know how to play.

[BadSS13Player]

Guys, if it isn't clear, the whole point is that dying should be a major inconvenience and it being difficult to resolve, specially in a timely fashion, is the entire point. Let MD actually serve a purpose.

Isn't the point of the PR (in the Why It's Good For The Game section) to rebalance medbay to be more challenging for MDs?

[Sheodir]

Guys, if it isn't clear, the whole point is that dying should be a major inconvenience and it being difficult to resolve, specially in a timely fashion, is the entire point. Let MD actually serve a purpose.

Isn't the point of the PR (in the Why It's Good For The Game section) is to rebalance medbay to be more challenging for MDs?

Yes, that is precisdely the point I'm making.

[Arathian]

So, I played a few games with removed cloning last night on Terry (Dynamic):

If someone beheads you, I have never, ever seen someone get fixed from that. Same with organ spill. Doctors will try to patch you up and resurrect you with missing organs and simply ignore your head if you are beheaded. Frankly, the only way to fix the head thing that I can think of is shoving it inside a humanized monkey. Can you even re-attach the head somehow?

If someone is left dead for a prolonged period of time and organ decay kicks in, he might as well have been dusted. Organ decay completely fucks you up and it takes so long and so much effort to fix that I have never seen someone try so far to do it.

Overall, playing with completely removed cloning has felt bad so far in practice. Keep in mind that this has been on Terry where most people are fairly advanced mechanically and know their roles usually.

What changes I would like without reverting:

1) Re-attach head surgery.

2) A medicine that fixes overall organ decay on only corpses and essentially resets the timer to 0 so doctors don't have to spend 30m fixing each individual organ from a single person.

3) A better indicator that someone is missing organs after an organ spill. A visual indicator (like a burst out stomach) and an inspection indicator with bold red letter (This person's chest is burst open and all his organs have spilled!)

4) Probably empty cloning should stay in. I know it's against the spirit of the PR but there is no reason it shouldn't stay. Getting enough humanized monkeys to serve highpop for medbay is basically impossible, even when they raid genetics (in sci now) and virology.

In my opinion though:

I think the change is going too far. I still believe cloning should stay in as a tech instead of round-start. However, that opinion might change over time.

[PKPenguin321]

This post was deleted by PKPenguin321 on Mon Jan 27, 2020 7:14 pm.
Reason: Doublepost